Magi massive Revision

[Lormac_CC]

Didn't they all have the same powers of ascension empowered by the Sacred Palacy?

This isn't about ascending the Hierarchy. It is about changing position on the Hierarchy. It was discussed here last year. It is why they are rated 1-B right now.

Please provide a sufficiently elaborate but easily understood and well-structured explanation.

Alright.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Yes they can use the sacred palace to break boundaries and cast gods down but they are incapable of changing their position on the Hierarchy. According to Ugo, illah is the only one capable of changing his position, infact illah is the only God on the Hierarchy in his layer

Does this mean during their battle sinbad was just repeatedly casting david to a lower position in the hierarchy while he remained the same?

 

[Antvasima]

Alright.

Thank you.

Anyway, the reasoning for and relation between the different tiers for the respective characters needs to be explained in a very easy to understand manner for our visitors to not consider it to be incoherent nonsense. Maybe explanations can be included in a regular Magi cosmology explanation page?

 

[Lormac_CC]

Does this mean during their battle sinbad was just repeatedly casting david to a lower position in the hierarchy while he remained the same?

Yes, just like how Ugo Did it

 

[Lormac_CC]

Thank you.

Anyway, the reasoning for and relation between the different tiers for the respective characters needs to be explained in a very easy to understand manner for our visitors to not consider it to be incoherent nonsense. Maybe explanations can be included in a regular Magi cosmology explanation page?

I have created a blog already. I will make few edits based on this thread. It will be linked to the verse page

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. It may be better if you move the relevant information to a regular wiki page that explains the Magi cosmology though.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Okay. It may be better if you move the relevant information to a regular wiki page that explains the Magi cosmology though.

Alright

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Lormac_CC]

What is left, cause I believe everything here is settled

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure. I still think that the suggested tiers seem jumbled and hard to understand for our visitors.

If you write a single post that explains the discussion so far in an easy to understand manner, I can ask for some further staff help though.

 

[Pedonar]

Sinbad is not even sure if solomon is the one who made him God so there’s a possibility that higher gods did it

 

[Lormac_CC]

I am not sure. I still think that the suggested tiers seem jumbled and hard to understand for our visitors.

If you write a single post that explains the discussion so far in an easy to understand manner, I can ask for some further staff help though.

Alright

 

[Lormac_CC]

Magi uses creator-creation relationship. The difference between a Creator and it's creation is R/F.
Scaling.
We start with a weakened illah. illah created a space-time 4D in a weakened state. That makes him 5D. Ugo/Sinbad 6D. Solomon has Creator-creation relationship with Ugo, that makes him 7D. Normal illah is the creator of Solomon, 8D. God David is basically illah, that makes him 8D.

The 1-B part.
In chapter 324, Ugo revealed that it was possible for illah to change his position/status on the Hierarchy of gods. This was used by David several times. David gets varies up to 1-B.

 

[Antvasima]

Magi uses creator-creation relationship. The difference between a Creator and it's creation is R/F.
Scaling.
We start with a weakened illah. illah created a space-time 4D in a weakened state. That makes him 5D. Ugo/Sinbad 6D. Solomon has Creator-creation relationship with Ugo, that makes him 7D. Normal illah is the creator of Solomon, 8D. God David is basically illah, that makes him 8D.

The 1-B part.
In chapter 324, Ugo revealed that it was possible for illah to change his position/status on the Hierarchy of gods. This was used by David several times. David gets varies up to 1-B.

@Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions

Would any of you be willing to help us out with evaluating this thread please? I would appreciate it.

 

[Pedonar]

Magi uses creator-creation relationship. The difference between a Creator and it's creation is R/F.
Scaling.
We start with a weakened illah. illah created a space-time 4D in a weakened state. That makes him 5D. Ugo/Sinbad 6D. Solomon has Creator-creation relationship with Ugo, that makes him 7D. Normal illah is the creator of Solomon, 8D. God David is basically illah, that makes him 8D.

The 1-B part.
In chapter 324, Ugo revealed that it was possible for illah to change his position/status on the Hierarchy of gods. This was used by David several times. David gets varies up to 1-B.

The possibility that higher gods made him a god doesn’t mean anything??

and about the fate im sure that david and sinbad share the same fate + if sinbad cant use the sacred place against the god on the hierachy of gods level then how he was he able to do it against david/illah who was god on the hierachy of gods level , and sinbad planned to ascend to higher reality and defeat the other gods and even david/illah said the same thing to sinbad he was telling him that its possible for him to do it ????

 

[Lormac_CC]

The possibility that higher gods made him a god doesn’t mean anything??

That possibility is like 0 as Sinbad outright says illah and Solomon are above.

sinbad planned to ascend to higher reality and defeat the other gods and even david/illah said the same thing to sinbad he was telling him that its possible for him to do it ????

He will defeat them by reducing their position on the Hierarchy not changing his own position.

and about the fate im sure that david and sinbad share the same fate + if sinbad cant use the sacred place against the god on the hierachy of gods level then how he was he able to do it against david/illah who was god on the hierachy of gods level

Sinbad like Ugo can't change his own position on the Hierarchy using swapping stuff, he can only reduce the rank of gods on the Hierarchy.

 

[Pedonar]

That possibility is like 0 as Sinbad outright says illah and Solomon are above.

He will defeat them by reducing their position on the Hierarchy not changing his own position.

Sinbad like Ugo can't change his own position on the Hierarchy using swapping stuff, he can only reduce the rank of gods on the Hierarchy.

if its illah then he will just say his name , in that panel he mentioned higher gods or solomon who made him god and u can even see a group of gods near solomon

 

[Lormac_CC]

Members and staff who are knowledgeable on the series have agreed to this thread. Can this be applied

 

[PrinceofPein]

Members and staff who are knowledgeable on the series have agreed to this thread. Can this be applied

Possibly if a blog can be made to make it easier as currently if the reader is not knowledgeable on the verse, it will sound like gibberish
So a well explained blog that layman can understand should be made

 

[Antvasima]

Possibly if a blog can be made to make it easier as currently if the reader is not knowledgeable on the verse, it will sound like gibberish
So a well explained blog that layman can understand should be made

Yes, agreed. It all comes across as a convoluted and confusing scaling mess currently. A draft for a regular Magi cosmology explanation page that fits with our current standards preferably needs to be written and then have its language structure cleaned up by somebody willing to handle it.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Yes, agreed. It all comes across as a convoluted and confusing scaling mess currently. A draft for a regular Magi cosmology explanation page that fits with our current standards preferably needs to be written and then have its language structure cleaned up by somebody willing to handle it.

Alright I will edit what is with me and post it tomorrow

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Please post your explanation page draft in a sandbox in the wiki, so other members here, such as Pain_to12 can help with improving on its language structure.

 

[RatherClueless]

Ok, so I finally finished reading Magi (yes, I read all of it just for this thread) and I have to disagree with the current proposed scaling. I'll write a proper reply after gathering all the scans and talking the tiering through with Ultima.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for taking the time to properly evaluate this series. Your help is very appreciated. I am also suspicious regarding if we have exaggerated the tiering or turned it too incoherent.

However, the prequel series about Sinbad is also a part of the canon.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Thank you very much for taking the time to properly evaluate this series. Your help is very appreciated. I am also suspicious regarding if we have exaggerated the tiering or turned it too incoherent.

However, the prequel series about Sinbad is also a part of the canon.

It’s not exaggerated but it’s very much incoherent

 

[Lormac_CC]

I have been busy with lrl. When you drop your reply, I will respond

 

[RatherClueless]

Scaling Chain and Tiering

Sinbads and Davids Destiny (H 1-A) > Hierarchy of Gods (1-A+) > Il-Ilah (Low 1-A) > Il-Ilah's Rukh (H 1-B) > Sacred Palace (Low 1-C up to H 1-B); Sinbad and David (13 - 17D; 1-B) > Ugo (At least 5-D to 9-D; Low 1-C to 1-C) > David fused with Il-Ilah (Unquantifiable Dimensionality; 11-C)

Cosmology

• The main Magi world is a multiverse at least 2-B in size.
• Above this Multiverse is the dimension Il-Ilah's Rukh resided in, which was later turned into the Sacred Palace
• There are both horizontal and a vertical dimensions.
• Getting access to a horizontal dimension is just as difficult as breaking through a vertical one
• The Sacred Palace has a order of gods
• Each difference between these gods is the difference of an author and its work
• The lowest one was the fusion of Il-Ilah's Rukh and David, creating a "lower order world", implying it is less than the main Magi world. In this state it was shown as even smaller than a normal human, fitting into the palm of their hand.
• Above this is Ugo, reaching two whole ranks above David
• Above that is Sinbad by one rank
• Above that is David after moving up the ranks, continuously fighting with Sinbad for this position
• Il-Ilah's "true self" exists as a Rukh-less being above this world, trying to regain its power and Rukh.
• There is an infinite hierarchy of gods beyond Il-Ilah (It say "countless", but is clearly infinite for several reasons. Also, let's not act like those words aren't used interchangeably all the time)
• There isn't a clear statement on the amount of parallel dimensions, but but going by how it is depicted and the fact that even just one universe can have several horizontal dimensions, I'll go out on a limb and say that it's probably infinite too (this one is up for debate though).
• Horizontal dimensions can have completely different laws and even different flows of time.
• Even though David can see his destiny of fighting all these gods, he does not know who chose him what what lies beyond destiny, implying that whoever or whatever gave him this destiny ranks above the infinite hierarchy.

Important things to mention

• Solomon did not break through vertically, but changed the dimensions horizontally when overwriting Il-Ilah's will. Connecting to the actual world of Il-Ilah would have required for the world to be returned to the Rukh. In the words of the manga, he chose isolation rather than aggression. He snatched those reins away and let them go.
• Even though Solomon had an incredibly hard time pushing back Il-Ilah, Aladding managed to hold his own against David with far less effort.
• The black Rukh is still Il-Ilah's will and anyone who came into contact with it is outside the influence of the Sacred Palace. The dark continent is outside the reach of the Sacred Palace, as Solomon's laws aren't effective there.
• While Ugo did say that he cast down Il-Ilah, that was clearly not the same Il-Ilah as the one Alibaba was stuck in. That Il-Ilah has no Rukh, yet David entered as Rukh. That Il-Ilah is in a dimension which can't simply be connected with the rest of the world, as Ugo specifically mentions. Connecting the black Rukh to the rest of the Rukh was supposedly only possible when destroying the Sacred Palace.
• The magic used to get out of Il-Ilah can't be used by a living being, as it would be impossible to endure, yet entering the Sacred Palace is perfectly doable.
• The magic needed to to change the ranks of the gods needs less magoi than that to break through the vertical walls.

Sacred Palace Scaling

The difference between each god isn't 1 dimension. We love to assume that every reality fiction difference is just 1 dimension, but that is clearly not the case here. Each R/F difference has its own dimensions, Rukh, etc. The world David was creating was specifically stated to be "lower order" (as this was something he told Arba we can assume that it was in reference to their own world), yet it still had its own dimensions and even its own destiny. With this the R/F difference between each god should at least be 4-D.

The Sacred Palace is the very thing that keeps all the Rukh on the horizontal dimensions separate. This makes it at least 1-B to H 1-B, as connecting to just one of these dimensions requires the same magic you'd need to connect to a higher dimension.

Character Scaling

Sinbad and David: Even though they never actually went through with it, thanks to their destiny, they absolutely would have been able to. This is why they should be 1-B. (will become) 1-A+ over time. Their destiny itself would either be 1-A+ or H 1-A. This is under the assumption that the horizontal dimensions are in fact H 1-B. If not everything gets downgraded to H 1-B/L 1-A

Aladdin, Solomon and Hakuryuu/Belial: (At least) L 1-A, as Solomon could push Il-Ilah back into its dimension. Belial can send people into Il-Ilah. If horizontal dimensions aren't accepted as H 1-B this would be 1-B, even though I personally have quite some issues with this, as it would imply that one can break through the vertical walls by simply changing the hierarchy of the Sacred Palace a bunch of times.

Arba and Al Thamen: They don't scale in AP, but should have H 1-B range. If the horizontal walls aren't accepted this would be 1-B range.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Wait what??
Already disagree with the H-1A, 1-A and low 1-A scaling in any form
As that is based on extremely faulty reasoning.

Also The transcendence doesn’t go horizontally but vertically/above

 

[PrinceofPein]

I will give a proper reply later on if no one beats me to it

 

[Lormac_CC]

Neutral, Magi cosmology has different interpretation. I will drop my reply to this.

 

[Lormac_CC]

The main Magi

Agree

Above this Multiverse is the dimension Il-Ilah's Rukh resided in, which was later turned into the Sacred Palace

I don't agree the dimension was turned to the Sacred palace, but I do agree the Sacred palace exist in this dimension

There are both horizontal and a vertical dimensions.

Agree

Getting access to a horizontal dimension is just as difficult as breaking through a vertical one

Agree with this

The Sacred Palace has a order of gods

Agree after the discussion on Discord

difference between these gods is the difference of an author and its work

Agree

Il-Ilah's "true self" exists as a Rukh-less being above this world, trying to regain its power and Rukh.

Il-llah true self is in a different dimension. Agree

There is an infinite hierarchy of gods beyond Il-Ilah

Agree

Even though David can see his destiny of fighting all these gods, he does not know who chose him what what lies beyond destiny, implying that whoever or whatever gave him this destiny ranks above the infinite hierarchy

Agree with this. David said he and Sinbad where going to fight and go beyond the Infinite god to reach the end of faith, also Singularities sees Faith from the perspective of who is controlling

Solomon did not break through vertically, but changed the dimensions horizontally when overwriting Il-Ilah's will. Connecting to the actual world of Il-Ilah would have required for the world to be returned to the Rukh. In the words of the manga, he chose isolation rather than aggression. He snatched those reins away and let them go.

Agree

The black Rukh is still Il-Ilah's will and anyone who came into contact with it is outside the influence of the Sacred Palace. The dark continent is outside the reach of the Sacred Palace, as Solomon's laws aren't effective there

Agree

While Ugo did say that he cast down Il-Ilah, that was clearly not the same Il-Ilah as the one Alibaba was stuck in. That Il-Ilah has no Rukh, yet David entered as Rukh. That Il-Ilah is in a dimension which can't simply be connected with the rest of the world, as Ugo specifically mentions. Connecting the black Rukh to the rest of the Rukh was supposedly only possible when destroying the Sacred Palace.

Agree

With this the R/F difference between each god should at least be 4-D.

Why 4-D, it should just be at least 2

The Sacred Palace is the very thing that keeps all the Rukh on the horizontal dimensions separate.

Agree

This makes it at least 1-B to H 1-B, as connecting to just one of these dimensions requires the same magic you'd need to connect to a higher dimension.

The energy required to move at least one level vertically is required to move horizontally. Agree

 

[RatherClueless]

I don't agree the dimension was turned to the Sacred palace

Sorry for the misunderstanding, that's what I meant

Why 4-D, it should just be at least 2

4-D because creations of a higher god seemingly transcend the lower gods, as David apparently didn't even notice that he was inside a fish tank, while Arba was watching him. So it would be God > Its Creation > Lower God > Its Creation.

Edit: Thinking about it, it should be 5 or 6D. You have 3D beings, surpassed by a God. Then you have another God's creation above that God before getting to the next higher God. If we assume that each universe a God creates is 4D, then the God is 5D within their reality. RF between the next higher world would be 1D, followed by a 4D universe ruled by another 5D God. So 1D RF + 5D is the difference between those two Gods. If we assume it's just a 3-D universe it'd be 1D RF + 4D.

 

[RatherClueless]

I will give a proper reply later on if no one beats me to it

Btw, considering that basically everyone on discord I've talked to about this agrees with me, I doubt anyone will beat you to it.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Btw, considering that basically everyone on discord I've talked to about this agrees with me, I doubt anyone will beat you to it.

I’m more on the 1A and 1A+ shenanigans those are outright wrong in all scenarios and you really don’t even have the proof for it and it has been discussed before and rejected
I don’t really have a qualms with the scaling

And yes higher God > lower God ——— but all creations(humans) are inherently 3D and no reasons to assume otherwise

 

[RatherClueless]

it has been discussed before and rejected

Where? Could you link the thread?

but all creations(humans) are inherently 3D and no reasons to assume otherwise

I never said otherwise?

 

[CosmicWreck]

The 1A- 1A+ thing also doesn't make much sense to me. Since vertical dimensions and horizontal dimensions are equally hard to get into, then that means they are two sets of High 1-B and not higher since they're equal and not superior.

Well, even then the number of horizontal dimensions is not known, so it's really only one set of infinite dimensions and another undefined set.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Where? Could you link the thread?

Hmmmn check the threads created by lormac
This I can find tho

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-little-magi-discussion.121888/

I never said otherwise?

So it makes no sense for there to be up to 5D between the gods when we were explicitly given a single R>F difference between them as stated and nothing contradicts that.
We have the author and his book
Not the author writing an author writing another book

Also he could have reduce David to as low as 4D or 2 steps down e.t.c. and he would still be able to create his own life form

 

[Antvasima]

Scaling Chain and Tiering

Sinbads and Davids Destiny (H 1-A) > Hierarchy of Gods (1-A+) > Il-Ilah (Low 1-A) > Il-Ilah's Rukh (H 1-B) > Sacred Palace (Low 1-C up to H 1-B); Sinbad and David (13 - 17D; 1-B) > Ugo (At least 5-D to 9-D; Low 1-C to 1-C) > David fused with Il-Ilah (Unquantifiable Dimensionality; 11-C)

Cosmology

• The main Magi world is a multiverse at least 2-B in size.
• Above this Multiverse is the dimension Il-Ilah's Rukh resided in, which was later turned into the Sacred Palace
• There are both horizontal and a vertical dimensions.
• Getting access to a horizontal dimension is just as difficult as breaking through a vertical one
• The Sacred Palace has a order of gods
• Each difference between these gods is the difference of an author and its work
• The lowest one was the fusion of Il-Ilah's Rukh and David, creating a "lower order world", implying it is less than the main Magi world. In this state it was shown as even smaller than a normal human, fitting into the palm of their hand.
• Above this is Ugo, reaching two whole ranks above David
• Above that is Sinbad by one rank
• Above that is David after moving up the ranks, continuously fighting with Sinbad for this position
• Il-Ilah's "true self" exists as a Rukh-less being above this world, trying to regain its power and Rukh.
• There is an infinite hierarchy of gods beyond Il-Ilah (It say "countless", but is clearly infinite for several reasons. Also, let's not act like those words aren't used interchangeably all the time)
• There isn't a clear statement on the amount of parallel dimensions, but but going by how it is depicted and the fact that even just one universe can have several horizontal dimensions, I'll go out on a limb and say that it's probably infinite too (this one is up for debate though).
• Horizontal dimensions can have completely different laws and even different flows of time.
• Even though David can see his destiny of fighting all these gods, he does not know who chose him what what lies beyond destiny, implying that whoever or whatever gave him this destiny ranks above the infinite hierarchy.

Important things to mention

• Solomon did not break through vertically, but changed the dimensions horizontally when overwriting Il-Ilah's will. Connecting to the actual world of Il-Ilah would have required for the world to be returned to the Rukh. In the words of the manga, he chose isolation rather than aggression. He snatched those reins away and let them go.
• Even though Solomon had an incredibly hard time pushing back Il-Ilah, Aladding managed to hold his own against David with far less effort.
• The black Rukh is still Il-Ilah's will and anyone who came into contact with it is outside the influence of the Sacred Palace. The dark continent is outside the reach of the Sacred Palace, as Solomon's laws aren't effective there.
• While Ugo did say that he cast down Il-Ilah, that was clearly not the same Il-Ilah as the one Alibaba was stuck in. That Il-Ilah has no Rukh, yet David entered as Rukh. That Il-Ilah is in a dimension which can't simply be connected with the rest of the world, as Ugo specifically mentions. Connecting the black Rukh to the rest of the Rukh was supposedly only possible when destroying the Sacred Palace.
• The magic used to get out of Il-Ilah can't be used by a living being, as it would be impossible to endure, yet entering the Sacred Palace is perfectly doable.
• The magic needed to to change the ranks of the gods needs less magoi than that to break through the vertical walls.

Sacred Palace Scaling

The difference between each god isn't 1 dimension. We love to assume that every reality fiction difference is just 1 dimension, but that is clearly not the case here. Each R/F difference has its own dimensions, Rukh, etc. The world David was creating was specifically stated to be "lower order" (as this was something he told Arba we can assume that it was in reference to their own world), yet it still had its own dimensions and even its own destiny. With this the R/F difference between each god should at least be 4-D.

The Sacred Palace is the very thing that keeps all the Rukh on the horizontal dimensions separate. This makes it at least 1-B to H 1-B, as connecting to just one of these dimensions requires the same magic you'd need to connect to a higher dimension.

Character Scaling

Sinbad and David: Even though they never actually went through with it, thanks to their destiny, they absolutely would have been able to. This is why they should be 1-B. (will become) 1-A+ over time. Their destiny itself would either be 1-A+ or H 1-A. This is under the assumption that the horizontal dimensions are in fact H 1-B. If not everything gets downgraded to H 1-B/L 1-A

Aladdin, Solomon and Hakuryuu/Belial: (At least) L 1-A, as Solomon could push Il-Ilah back into its dimension. Belial can send people into Il-Ilah. If horizontal dimensions aren't accepted as H 1-B this would be 1-B, even though I personally have quite some issues with this, as it would imply that one can break through the vertical walls by simply changing the hierarchy of the Sacred Palace a bunch of times.

Arba and Al Thamen: They don't scale in AP, but should have H 1-B range. If the horizontal walls aren't accepted this would be 1-B range.

This seems extremely exaggerated to me based on the scale of the feats that were actually shown in the series. It would likely make the reliability of our scaling far worse than previously.

I am also suspicious regarding if we have exaggerated the tiering or turned it too incoherent.

However, the prequel series about Sinbad is also a part of the canon.

It’s not exaggerated but it’s very much incoherent

Okay, so what solutions would you suggest then?

 

[PrinceofPein]

This seems extremely exaggerated to me based on the scale of the feats that were actually shown in the series. It would likely make the reliability of our scaling far worse than previously.


Okay, so what solutions would you suggest then?

The entire series scaling chain is kind of a hassle as it can have lots of interpretations and each of those interpretations can be correct, one not more than the other just depending on how you are looking at it.
It’s been years I read Magi last but I started it again for this thread since the verse needs to be fixed.

When I am done I will drop my interpretations of the scaling.

Although the current tiers are actually perfectly correct as they are the problem is just who scales above who and how far they scale above one another

 

[Lormac_CC]

This I can find tho

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-little-magi-discussion.121888/

This is completely different compared to his interpretation, did you read his own