Magi massive Revision

[Zencha9]

Trying to reject something by saying "already discussed once before" is a pussy move anyways unless it has like 10 threads or something
so just tackle the arguments

 

[Lormac_CC]

We have the author and his book
Not the author writing an author writing another book

This sort of thing exists in the Scaling you agreed to

 

[Lormac_CC]

Trying to reject something by saying "already discussed once before" is a pussy move anyways unless it has like 10 threads or something
so just tackle the arguments

There are few agurments that can't be tackled, for example, energy required to move a horizontal dimension is same you need to move a vertical Dimension. The Sacred palace holding Rukh in the horizontal Dimensions and according to Ugo circulating the energy within those dimensions.

 

[PrinceofPein]

This sort of thing exists in the Scaling you agreed to

Not directly, or was it directly?
I mean I thought it will always be a god in between each layers
Anyway I am planning on reading everything again I can add this thread to it too

Trying to reject something by saying "already discussed once before" is a pussy move anyways unless it has like 10 threads or something
so just tackle the arguments

Read his post he has brought out no argument just a claim without substantial proof
So stop being rude for absolutely no reason and read

 

[Lormac_CC]

Not directly, or was it directly?

Yeah directly

 

[Lormac_CC]

without substantial proof

I will drop scans for things without scans.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I will drop scans for things without scans.

You mean the ones from the previous thread? The one about seeing what’s beyond infinite battles?

Yeah directly

Then I will have to disagree with that. You are claiming there are 3D layers between each gods without any gods filling that gap, that goes against the series

 

[Lormac_CC]

Then I will have to disagree with that. You are claiming there are 3D layers between each gods without any gods filling that gap, that goes against the series

How, please explain

You mean the ones from the previous thread? The one about seeing what’s beyond infinite battles?

There are few things he didn't drop scans for. Why are you bringing the previous thread here, what he dropped has nothing to do with the previous thread.

 

[Zencha9]

Read his post he has brought out no argument just a claim without substantial proof
So stop being rude for absolutely no reason and read

He did bring scans although it is true that half of it comes from his interpretation but that still doesn't dismiss his entire argument my point is that it's cowardly to do that sure i maybe could've avoid using the term pussy but it is in my opinion was the best way to describe it

 

[PrinceofPein]

How, please explain

The verbatim from the series, “there are countless layers, on each layer is a god and the god in the higher layer has a author-book relationship with the lower one”
Meaning there is a god for each layer and not that there are layers without gods hence gaps.
And nothing in the series contradicts this

There are few things he didn't drop scans for. Why are you bringing the previous thread here, what he dropped has nothing to do with the previous thread.

I will just wait for actual arguments and scans before actually tackling them. Let me see the new info that he is bringing

He did bring scans although it is true that half of it comes from his interpretation but that still doesn't dismiss his entire argument my point is that it's cowardly to do that sure i maybe could've avoid using the term pussy but it is in my opinion was the best way to describe it

So I’m a pussy for saying a certain has been brought before and rejected, as opposed to you who wrote incoherent accusations for no reason?
Please just rest if you have nothing constructive to say.
And a better term would be “a cowardly thing to do”
Although I still fail to see how that is cowardly like tf?
Anyway I will let it go for now

 

[Lormac_CC]

there are countless layers, on each layer is a god and the god in the higher layer has a author-book relationship with the lower one”
Meaning there is a god for each layer and not that there are layers without gods hence gaps.
And nothing in the series contradicts this

The very fact that Solomon, Ugo, Sinbad, illah all exists in one layer(illah) layer contradicts that. His agurment and scaling above actually covers up some contractions on this issue, this is why I am asking if you went through is interpretation properly

 

[PrinceofPein]

The very fact that Solomon, Ugo, Sinbad, illah all exists in one layer(illah) layer contradicts that. His agurment and scaling above actually covers up some contractions on this issue, this is why I am asking if you went through is interpretation properly

Except the people you just mentioned are not gods on the hierarchy except Illah
And yes I went through his interpretation

 

[Lormac_CC]

Except the people you just mentioned are not gods on the hierarchy except Illah

Via my interpretation yes, but they are gods. Would love to continue this but I am busy.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Via my interpretation yes, but they are gods. Would love to continue this but I am busy.

I was talking about gods on the hierarchy
But well anytime you are free we can continue

 

[Blackchocolate77]

At what tier should this revision end? at least

 

[Lormac_CC]

At what tier should this revision end? at least

Don't know right now

 

[Antvasima]

The entire series scaling chain is kind of a hassle as it can have lots of interpretations and each of those interpretations can be correct, one not more than the other just depending on how you are looking at it.
It’s been years I read Magi last but I started it again for this thread since the verse needs to be fixed.

When I am done I will drop my interpretations of the scaling.

Although the current tiers are actually perfectly correct as they are the problem is just who scales above who and how far they scale above one another

Okay. No problem. Thank you for helping out. It is appreciated.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Want to thank RatherClueless, I do not agree with everything he is saying but he has brought some really good points on the the cosmology which I ignored

 

[RatherClueless]

This I can find tho

That's not rly the same argument tho. There are two arguments here.

1. It is equally hard to move sideways as up (the amount/size of horizontal dimension is debatable tho)
2. Even with potentially infinite transcendencies within the sacred palace (Sinbad and David were swapping positions and were planning on doing so for eternity within a timeless space), implying that if the sacred palace wouldn't break from being overused, an infinite hierarchy within it is technically possible, as the magic to change the hierarchy is the same for swapping positions as it is for transcendencies.

So it makes no sense for there to be up to 5D between the gods when we were explicitly given a single R>F difference between them as stated and nothing contradicts that.
We have the author and his book
Not the author writing an author writing another book

Well, from the way the manga presents things, Arba is higher in order than David after he was cast down, creating a lower order world compared to theirs. If he was simply one dimension lower than Ugo, why would he be depicted as even lower than Arba, creating a world of less significance than that of the main magi world? Doesn't make much sense if you ask me.

Read his post he has brought out no argument just a claim without substantial proof

That's just an Invincible Ignorance Fallacy. I have given scans substantiating my claims and even said "This is up for debate".

I will just wait for actual arguments and scans before actually tackling them. Let me see the new info that he is bringing

The fact that Il-Ilah specifically exists in a higher world means nothing to you? Il-Ilah is not its Rukh after all.

 

[RatherClueless]

This seems extremely exaggerated to me based on the scale of the feats that were actually shown in the series. It would likely make the reliability of our scaling far worse than previously.

Well, the verse doesn't really have feats beyond Il-Ilah. The vast majority comes from statements, not feats.

 

[PrinceofPein]

That's not rly the same argument tho. There are two arguments here.

1. It is equally hard to move sideways as up (the amount/size of horizontal dimension is debatable tho)

That will be likened to a 2A sized world in each order iirc

2. Even with potentially infinite transcendencies within the sacred palace (Sinbad and David were swapping positions and were planning on doing so for eternity within a timeless space), implying that if the sacred palace wouldn't break from being overused, an infinite hierarchy within it is technically possible, as the magic to change the hierarchy is the same for swapping positions as it is for transcendencies.

If it was infinite they will swap for infinity and still won’t reach the top that’s the entire place your argument falls apart, they will keep swapping and will never reach the top

Well, from the way the manga presents things, Arba is higher in order than David after he was cast down, creating a lower order world compared to theirs. If he was simply one dimension lower than Ugo, why would he be depicted as even lower than Arba, creating a world of less significance than that of the main magi world? Doesn't make much sense if you ask me.

Which is why I said two orders lower, in later posts

That's just an Invincible Ignorance Fallacy. I have given scans substantiating my claims and even said "This is up for debate".

No it’s you making claims that makes 0 sense
Your claim will require there to be an hierarchy beyond the current hierarchy which well as far as the series ended there was none and it was not hinted

The fact that Il-Ilah specifically exists in a higher world means nothing to you? Il-Ilah is not its Rukh after all.

and how does this justify 1A? Illah being in a higher world, means higher order true form Illah

 

[RatherClueless]

The 1A- 1A+ thing also doesn't make much sense to me. Since vertical dimensions and horizontal dimensions are equally hard to get into, then that means they are two sets of High 1-B and not higher since they're equal and not superior.

Well, in that case Il-Ilah would only "rule" over 1 horizontal dimension. Not too sure how I feel about that

Well, even then the number of horizontal dimensions is not known, so it's really only one set of infinite dimensions and another undefined set.

Like I said before, I'd be perfectly fine if ppl dont wanna assume that they are infinite. Just saying that the way they are depicted would imply that.

 

[RatherClueless]

That will be likened to a 2A sized world in each order iirc

You think the sacred palace is less than 2-A?

If it was infinite they will swap for infinity and still won’t reach the top that’s the entire place your argument falls apart, they will keep swapping and will never reach the top

What? There is always someone at the top. Be it Ugo, Sinbad or David, as the highest god is the Sacred Palace' guardian.

Which is why I said two orders lower, in later posts

Then why would David be 4-D? Do you mean to say Arba is 5-D?

No it’s you making claims that makes 0 sense
Your claim will require there to be an hierarchy beyond the current hierarchy which well as far as the series ended there was none and it was not hinted

wdym? There is a hierarchy within the sacred palace and one of worlds and gods similar to Il-Ilah beyond it. It's pretty blatant too. Don't just say this makes no sense when I have given evidence to substantiate my claims. Bring counter evidence or say why these scans dont apply in the way I claim they do.

 

[Lormac_CC]

That will be likened to a 2A sized world in each order iirc

No, Horizontal dimensions scale to illah

If it was infinite they will swap for infinity and still won’t reach the top that’s the entire place your argument falls apart, they will keep swapping and will never reach the top

Do you understand his agurment/interpretation. He is saying that the Hierarchy Ugo/David/Sinbad messes with is within illah dimension

is why I said two orders lower, in later posts

Same as above, things like order and changing ranks only exists in illah layer

Your claim will require there to be an hierarchy beyond the current hierarchy which well as far as the series ended there was none and it was not hinted

No, that was my agurment last year, again I ask, did you read and understand his agurment

 

[Lormac_CC]

The horizontal Dimensions scale to illah. Interfering with the horizontal wall on one layer take much Rukh on pair with one you would use to move upwards. According to Ugo, He and Solomon where only able to interfere with one horizontal wall after using all of illah magoi. Few things don't add illah scales to every horizontal Dimensions but destroying the walls separating them takes all his magoi, Same amount of magoi would be needed to break vertical. If anything. It just simply hints that walls likely scale to each other

 

[PrinceofPein]

You think the sacred palace is less than 2-A?

No I said liken the horizontal and vertical worlds to a 2A - 2B sized multiverse on each layer.
Idk where you got that I said the sacred palace is 2-A from

What? There is always someone at the top. Be it Ugo, Sinbad or David, as the highest god is the Sacred Palace' guardian.

The guardian of the SP is the top of the hierarchy, where are you seeing that?

Then why would David be 4-D? Do you mean to say Arba is 5-D?

David is not 4-D not even here, he is rated as at least 6-D up to 8-D.

wdym? There is a hierarchy within the sacred palace and one of worlds and gods similar to Il-Ilah beyond it. It's pretty blatant too. Don't just say this makes no sense when I have given evidence to substantiate my claims. Bring counter evidence or say why these scans dont apply in the way I claim they do.

Counter evidence to your head canon?
1. Proof of another different infinite hierarchy totally within the SP?
2. Proof of another infinite hierarchy of the gods and worlds.

I will need proof of these please.
So your claim here is after the infinite battle in the SP they will leave it to go outside the SP into another higher hierarchy?
Please proof

 

[PrinceofPein]

No, Horizontal dimensions scale to illah

Do you understand his agurment/interpretation. He is saying that the Hierarchy Ugo/David/Sinbad messes with is within illah dimension

I do, he is claiming that there is a higher hierarchy outside the one we are told and that’s the proof I am asking if

Same as above, things like order and changing ranks only exists in illah layer

I do and I already agreed to this already, similar to the open ended High 1-B hierarchy

No, that was my agurment last year, again I ask, did you read and understand his agurment

I do and that’s what his argument also implies.

 

[Lormac_CC]

I do, he is claiming that there is a higher hierarchy outside the one we are told and that’s the proof I am asking if

No and yes. For one he claims that there are two Hierarchies. The first is within illah layer, this is the one Ugo messes with. The second one is the one we know. The one Sinbad wants to break

 

[PrinceofPein]

Ignore all I said before and focus on this mainly. Since you guys are not understanding what I’m saying, take I/O as an example each layer encompasses another High 1-B tier, but that’s still just High 1-B. Not 1-A.

Now you guys may want to argue for a ridiculous strong High 1-B like I/O, which I don’t agree with since you will need proof of transcendence between the horizontal dimensions which there is none as far as I remember.

 

[RatherClueless]

No I said liken the horizontal and vertical worlds to a 2A - 2B sized multiverse on each layer.
Idk where you got that I said the sacred palace is 2-A from

The sacred palace is part of that.

The guardian of the SP is the top of the hierarchy, where are you seeing that?

The top within the hierarchy of the Sacred Palace. Ugo kinda blatantly told us so. I can get the specific scans later, but I am pretty sure some of them are already in my post.

David is not 4-D not even here, he is rated as at least 6-D up to 8-D.

So Arba is 7-D to 9-D? Actually tackle the points I made. "This is what we assumed to be true before you made your arguments" isn't evidence.

1. Proof of another different infinite hierarchy totally within the SP?

Literally given it. The Sacred Palace is rather blatantly separate from the Hierarchy of the Gods. I mean, even if I didn't provide several scans for that, just logically speaking, how exactly are they going to get to the next higher world by spreading Il-Ilah's magoi between more and more gods within the sacred palace? They specifically need to return the world to the Rukh to get to the next higher world. It even straight up tells us that Ugo's magic to change the hierarchy isnt comparable to what is needed to break through the roof of the world.

2. Proof of another infinite hierarchy of the gods and worlds.

That one is the one Sinbad wants to break through, which he specifically never did, as he needs to return the world to the Rukh for that.

So your claim here is after the infinite battle in the SP they will leave it to go outside the SP into another higher hierarchy?
Please proof

Yes and I have. Like I said, I'll give the specific scans later as I am kinda busy rn. But also like I said, 3/4 of them (at least) are already in my reply.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Counter evidence to your head canon?
1. Proof of another different infinite hierarchy totally within the SP?
2. Proof of another infinite hierarchy of the gods and worlds.

I will need proof of these please.
So your claim here is after the infinite battle in the SP they will leave it to go outside the SP into another higher hierarchy?
Please proof

There is no proof of any of this
And your interpretations are frankly head canon.
I feel like you are not reading it well so here again

1. Proof of infinite hierarchy inside the SP separate from the hierarchy that was stated in verse to be the hierarchy of gods
2. Proof the horizontal dimensions are transcendent
3. Proof of another infinite hierarchy of gods and worlds separate from the one the entire lower world rukh was used to ascend to.

Now I don’t need your explanation on this @RatherClueless you made those claims just drop scans that’s all
Just use scans to reply, you don’t have to even say anything

 

[Lormac_CC]

I did agree to illah layer/SP having some sort of Hierarchy but I don't agree with horizontal been superior to each other.

Reason why I agree to one of the most controversial topic of his agurment.

I had to go and look and look for the raws for this.In chapter 324, When the Ugo first introduced illah multiple structure, he first started by saying he was a god above gods, David asked him what he meant. Ugo told him that God(illah) had a multi structure and it was possible to change their order. Ugo exclusively refered to it as illah multiple structure. Now if you are reading the Viz translation for the first, you might even this say structure is contained in illah. I originally interpreted it as a Hierachy containing god like illah but this looking at it again, this is somewhat contradicted by the same manga panel and the entire series. The second time Ugo describe it. He just say there are many worlds and that he changed the order of gods. Based on him mentioning changing the order of gods, well can tell he is referring to the structure he described above. In chapter 329, Sinbad gave the description. The interpretation of Sinbad description is the main problem. Now normally I will assume that he was referring to the entire verse but that might wrong and he might be referring to the World Ugo governs. One god governed this world , that role was played by Ugo. Alibaba, do you want to know how this world is structured, there are many worlds in this world and Ugo has obtained the formidable power to shit their order.

 

[Antvasima]

Pain_to12 makes sense to me above. I will not accept ridiculously exaggerated and drastic upgrades here.

@Damage3245 @DarkDragonMedeus

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[RatherClueless]

Ok, first of all, stop claiming it's all head canon when basically everything I said was directly linked to a scan. The things I didn't link are things I assume everyone is aware of or things that were already linked elsewhere.

Anyways:

1. Proof of infinite hierarchy inside the SP separate from the hierarchy that was stated in verse to be the hierarchy of gods

Separate:

• The Sacred Palace can't affect Il-Ilah's Rukh even after throwing down Il-Ilah/David. (Not sure what scan to use for "even after Il-Ilah was thrown down". Ig Alibaba, Hakuryuu, Judar, etc fighting literally everyone who is still influenced by the changed fate would be good enough, which is a massive part of the arc, so I doubt I need scans for that.)
• We are told that Ugo's magic that allows for the changing of the order of Gods within the Sacred Palace isn't enough for anything else.
• The Sacred Palace only circulates Il-Ilah's Rukh. Transcending within it shouldn't really get you anywhere beyond that. Especially since all it does is split the Rukh between more and more gods.
• They need to return the entire world to the Rukh to move to the next world
• If they weren't separate, Sinbad and David would have already broken through several layers of the hierarchy of gods, which they clearly haven't, as that requires: see the above.

Infinite:

• The Sacred Palace is a space with no time. Spending an infinite amount of time within it is thus perfectly feasible.
• Sinbad and David were planning on swapping positions for eternity using the same magic that allows one to change the order of gods.

2. Proof the horizontal dimensions are transcendent

I never claimed they are. I claimed that connecting them is just as hard has moving to a transcended, vertical dimension

3. Proof of another infinite hierarchy of gods and worlds separate from the one the entire lower world rukh was used to ascend to.

What? I can give evidence for a separate (see 1.), higher (2), infinite hierarchy of gods, but Idk what "the entire lower world rukh was used to ascend to." is supposed to mean. What lower world Rukh were used to ascend to where now?

TL;DR: To move up you need to return the world to the Rukh, which never happened. Thus all the shenanigans within the Sacred Palace have to be separate from the other worlds.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Pain_to12 makes sense to me above. I will not accept ridiculously exaggerated and drastic upgrades here.

@Damage3245 @DarkDragonMedeus

Would you be willing to help out here please?

If they are knowledgeable on the series then that's ok. This isn't about exaggeration as there are scans that will support this. It is all about interpretation

 

[Lormac_CC]

We are told that Ugo's magic that allows for the changing of the order of Gods within the Sacred Palace isn't enough for anything else

This is a supporting point

The Sacred Palace only circulates Il-Ilah's Rukh. Transcending within it shouldn't really get you anywhere beyond that. Especially since all it does is split the Rukh between more and more gods.

Supporting point

They need to return the entire world to the Rukh to move to the next world

The raws also uses interfer so yeah this is a strong point. Even inferring with a dimension needs massive rukh

The Sacred Palace is a space with no time. Spending an infinite amount of time within it is thus perfectly feasible

This doesn't prove a thing

Sinbad and David were planning on swapping positions for eternity using the same magic that allows one to change the order of gods

Viz and raws says otherwise.

 

[RatherClueless]

This doesn't prove a thing

Ugo is implying that between the time Aladdin left he already experienced an infinite amount of time. The number he named is rather obviously just there to show Arba how little a few thousand years are in comparison. You could replace it with [Insert any big number]. After all, if there is no time, any time he names is inaccurate, be it 10, 10000000 or 10^10^100 years.

raws says otherwise.

What do the raws say?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Well actually I agree with Ant it’s a bit of an exaggeration here as your interpretation take the highest possible explanation which is incredibly shaky.

That aside I will reply fully later on.

@Lormac_CC when I have time I will translate those raw scans up there, my Japanese is not all that good but at least I can do some few translations. Unless those are not MLT?

@RatherClueless lets continue this in some hours

 

[RatherClueless]

Well actually I agree with Ant it’s a bit of an exaggeration here as your interpretation take the highest possible explanation which is incredibly shaky.

It does explain a lot of inconsistencies and contradictions tho. Doesn't mean I believe I have the ultimate explanation or anything, especially on what tier it'd be (since Magi cosmology is all over the place), but I don't see how it would be "exaggerated", considering that everything I claim does have scans to back it up.

when I have time I will translate those raw scans up there, my Japanese is not all that good but at least I can do some few translations. Unless those are not MLT?

I can just ask someone who has (read) all the raws. If you want any specific ones, just ask.

 

[Lormac_CC]

It does explain a lot of inconsistencies and contradictions tho

Yes, perfectly which is why I agree with it