Magi massive Revision

[PrinceofPein]

It does explain a lot of inconsistencies and contradictions tho. Doesn't mean I believe I have the ultimate explanation or anything, especially on what tier it'd be (since Magi cosmology is all over the place), but I don't see how it would be "exaggerated", considering that everything I claim does have scans to back it up.

Your explanations and interpretation have quite a few holes, and just chill I will reply to your post up above later on

I can just ask someone who has (read) all the raws. If you want any specific ones, just ask.

Just the one Lormacc posted they are not much so I can translate them myself

 

[RatherClueless]

Viz and raws says otherwise.

I just asked about what the raws say and I was told:

"it just says, the trial of strength surrounds the God's hierarchy will go on forever/perennially"

 

[PrinceofPein]

Ok, first of all, stop claiming it's all head canon when basically everything I said was directly linked to a scan. The things I didn't link are things I assume everyone is aware of or things that were already linked elsewhere.

Anyways:


Separate:

• The Sacred Palace can't affect Il-Ilah's Rukh even after throwing down Il-Ilah/David. (Not sure what scan to use for "even after Il-Ilah was thrown down". Ig Alibaba, Hakuryuu, Judar, etc fighting literally everyone who is still influenced by the changed fate would be good enough, which is a massive part of the arc, so I doubt I need scans for that.)
• We are told that Ugo's magic that allows for the changing of the order of Gods within the Sacred Palace isn't enough for anything else.
• The Sacred Palace only circulates Il-Ilah's Rukh. Transcending within it shouldn't really get you anywhere beyond that. Especially since all it does is split the Rukh between more and more gods.
• They need to return the entire world to the Rukh to move to the next world
• If they weren't separate, Sinbad and David would have already broken through several layers of the hierarchy of gods, which they clearly haven't, as that requires: see the above.

Infinite:

• The Sacred Palace is a space with no time. Spending an infinite amount of time within it is thus perfectly feasible.
• Sinbad and David were planning on swapping positions for eternity using the same magic that allows one to change the order of gods.

I never claimed they are. I claimed that connecting them is just as hard has moving to a transcended, vertical dimension


What? I can give evidence for a separate (see 1.), higher (2), infinite hierarchy of gods, but Idk what "the entire lower world rukh was used to ascend to." is supposed to mean. What lower world Rukh were used to ascend to where now?

TL;DR: To move up you need to return the world to the Rukh, which never happened. Thus all the shenanigans within the Sacred Palace have to be separate from the other worlds.

Can I Get the chapter numbers of this scans?

 

[RatherClueless]

Can I Get the chapter numbers of this scans?

that might take some time, as I can't get onto PC rn, but sure.

Edit: The vast majority is 324 and up if that helps at all.

 

[Lormac_CC]

I just asked about what the raws say and I was told:

"it just says, the trial of strength surrounds the God's hierarchy will go on forever/perennially"

Yeah, my bad

 

[PrinceofPein]

that might take some time, as I can't get onto PC rn, but sure.

Edit: The vast majority is 324 and up if that helps at all.

I don’t want to read the entirety of those in jap, as it will be stressful
But anytime you are free you can just help with those numbers

 

[Lormac_CC]

I don’t want to read the entirety of those in jap, as it will be stressful
But anytime you are free you can just help with those numbers

Chapters that I can recognize, 347, 324,349, 355

 

[Antvasima]

Pain_to12 makes sense to me above. I will not accept ridiculously exaggerated and drastic upgrades here.

@Damage3245 @DarkDragonMedeus

Would you be willing to help out here please?

@UchihaSlayer96 @SomebodyData @Andytrenom @Qawsedf234

Your help would also be appreciated here.

 

[RatherClueless]

Il-Ilah's Rukh

Ch. 247 Pg. 16

infinite hierarchy of gods

329. Though not entirely sure if that's about the sacred palace or the outer hierarchy anymore, as he says so right after talking about Ugo being able to move within that hierarchy, yet he also says that this is the hierarchy he wants to ascend through . . . which is weird since Ugo specifically tells us his magic can't be used for that. A better scan would be Ch. 348 Pg. 12 (at least that's the page number where I read it. might be 2 less), when Alibaba talks about the vertical layers or when Sinbad talks about them being comparable to countries Ch. 349 Pg. 14, as well as when he talks about higher gods and fate as a whole Ch. 346 Pg. 14.

isn't enough for anything else.

Ch. 347 Pg. 10

circulates Il-Ilah's Rukh.

Ch. 324 Pg. 4

They need to return the entire world to the Rukh to move to the next world

Ch. 349 Pg. 6

space with no time.

Ch. 324 Pg. 13

for eternity

Ch. 355 Pg. 8 There is also Ch. 358 Pg. 10

higher (2)

Ch. 349 Pg. 10, 14

 

[Antvasima]

@Pain_to12

Are you willing to write an explanation post for what needs to be evaluated here please, so other staff members can get an easier overview?

 

[Lormac_CC]

He is the one we are waiting for

 

[PrinceofPein]

@Pain_to12

Are you willing to write an explanation post for what needs to be evaluated here please, so other staff members can get an easier overview?

After my reply later tomorrow since that will be the time i will be free to go through the thread and manga properly and reply.
I will draft up what needs to be evaluated

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Sorry for the delay, I will get to this today

 

[Lormac_CC]

Sorry for the delay, I will get to this today

No problem

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, no problem.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Finally done reading the manga again
Will send in my post soon

 

[PrinceofPein]

So before I reply I want to clear up something I don’t quite understand from the post above.

1. Are you suggesting that the horizontal dimensions are also hierarchies?
2. Are you saying an infinite hierarchy exist within the sacred palace?
3. Are you saying the true form of Illah exists above an infinite hierarchy of gods?

 

[RatherClueless]

1. No
2. I am saying it can exist. Not sure if it actually does
3. I am saying it is above the sacred palace and the next higher world in an infinite hierarchy of gods

 

[PrinceofPein]

1. No
2. I am saying it can exist. Not sure if it actually does
3. I am saying it is above the sacred palace and the next higher world in an infinite hierarchy of gods

This makes things easier
Give me like 5 hours I will explain my view on the relationship of the SP and the entire cosmology

Also the magi wiki has some misinformation that needs to be fixed, would do that too later.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Are you suggesting that the horizontal dimensions are also hierarchies?

No, I had disagreed with this

Are you saying an infinite hierarchy exist within the sacred palace?

I haven't seen evidence that it is infinite, but I agree that there is some sort of Hierarchy, but it is not within the Sacred palace. It is within illah layer

Are you saying the true form of Illah exists above an infinite hierarchy of gods?

What Hierarchy do you mean. The one within his layer yes, but general one no

 

[PrinceofPein]

Was there a magi guidebook?

 

[Lormac_CC]

Was there a magi guidebook?

Never heard of one

 

[PrinceofPein]

Never heard of one

Like a fan book or character profiles book?
Someone is telling there is one

But well we can handle that later
I should send my post when I’m home in like 2hrs

 

[RatherClueless]

Like a fan book or character profiles book?
Someone is telling there is one

There are character, fan and guidebooks, but they were all released way before the end of the series, so I doubt it'll have much info on this topic

 

[PrinceofPein]

So here is an explanation of Magi cosmology and it’s workings.
So read through it then you if you feel the need to reply you can do that.

SACRED PALACE

Sacred palace was created using Illah’s rukh and Solomon’s Magoi

Contrary to notions, the major reason the SP exists is to separate Rukh of two dimensions in Illah’s layer. There are different colors of Rukh each dimensions have their own rukh SP Create a barrier to make sure they don’t mix.
Which was why Aladdin and Alibaba goal was to destroy the SP so the dimensions can mix together. Destroying the SP means destruction of the barriers keep the rukh of different colors from mixing together. Becoming something like the dark continent

Now there is absolutely no hierarchy within the SP, Ugo while playing around found another function he could use the SP for, swapping the hierarchy of gods.
But the stinger here is that, the hierarchy he is allowed to swap are those of gods within Illah’s layer or Illah himself. To swap that of higher gods he needs a large magic power, one that will sacrifice the entire Lower world.

ILLAH

Illah has his own dimension where he was sealed after the SP was taken over. But as he is still the god of the layer everyone who dies returns to Illah(his dimension)

BARRIERS

There are two barriers
The horizontal barriers and vertical barriers

The vertical barriers are transcendent, or rather the gods of the higher one transcends the god of the lower one and views him as a author and a book.
The layer itself is still just like any other layer and has humans in it but the gods of an Higher layer transcends that of a lower one.

While the horizontal barrier is just the barrier separating different worlds(dimensions) in the same layer and not transcendent. So each layer has other dimensions. And the numbers are unknown but they are likely few
And even connection of this barriers also requires a great deal of magic also but not to the point the entire layer gets destroyed

GODS ABOVE THE ILLAH’S LAYER

These gods are unaffected by the SP hence the SP cannot swap their own hierarchy except through sacrificing the rukh of the entire world
In fact, it was said otherwise that these gods are in charge and can control what happens to the SP and the lower worlds and what to do with it.

The only way to reach these gods is by sacrificing the rukh of a lower world and using the magic to destroy the upper barrier hence ascending upward. Sinbad planned to keep doing this for eternity
Now Sinbad was trying to use the SP to return everyone to rukh so he can gain enough magic power to do this.

SINBAD VS DAVID

First they both lose their 1-B key on their profile.
They got 1-B off the scan of Ugo saying they rearranged the hierarchy multiple times but the context of these statement his Sinbad and David struggle where they swap the order of who controls the SP multiple times and they were never swapping the order of any gods above them just between them, just who becomes the guardian of the SP.

CONFLUENCE

• There is an infinite/countless/endless hierarchy in magi
• Illah is one of the gods on that hierarchy his number on the first floor while the start of gods(Illah) dimensionality in magi is unknown (which frankly is what caused a lot of controversies) but this is something that will be handled later on, we will find a reasonable number based on information provided
• The SP was created using Illah’s rukh and Solomon’s magic and was mainly for separating the rukh of different color
• The SP allows the swapping of gods inside the SP and also gods above by sacrificing the rukh of lower world
• The gods higher than Illah are not affected by the SP unless through sacrificing of the lower world rukh and can decide what happens to the SP

And that will be all

Also while there may be a change in dimensionality, it does not really affect their AP but there will be another thread for that

 

[RatherClueless]

I'll give a short reply in a bit

 

[RatherClueless]

Now there is absolutely no hierarchy within the SP

I said within the SP since all the gods we get to see in this layer are in the SP, but I suppose there could be others elsewhere.

The vertical barriers are transcendent, or rather the gods of the higher one transcends the god of the lower one and views him as a author and a book

It's not just the difference between layers, but also how Ugo saw Sinbad or David.

First they both lose their 1-B key on their profile.

Well, like I said in my original post, I still believe that the gods (in Il-Ilah) should have several dimensions of difference between each other, so it'd still be 1-B

The gods higher than Illah

Well, even Il-Ilah itself isn't really affected as it's still within its dimension.

Anyways. To specifically explain as to why I made the claim that the SP allows for an infinite hierarchy within just Il-Ilah is because any ascension, which is technically something you can do forever for as long as there are enough gods to switch positions with, would not be enough to reach the next higher layer of gods. So while there is no infinite hierarchy (at least none we get to see), it has "space" for one.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I said within the SP since all the gods we get to see in this layer are in the SP, but I suppose there could be others elsewhere.

The people you get to see are all humans who became god aside Illah

• Ugo
• Solomon
• David
• Sinbad
• Arba

These are those we ever saw within Illah’s layer and all were once humans within Illah’s layer before they became gods

It's not just the difference between layers, but also how Ugo saw Sinbad or David.

Yes that’s what I said also
And till SinbadxDavid took over the SP and became gods they were viewed similar to fiction

Well, like I said in my original post, I still believe that the gods (in Il-Ilah) should have several dimensions of difference between each other, so it'd still be 1-B

This is a huge assumption and I see no reason for it. That was why I made no assumption on my post

Well, even Il-Ilah itself isn't really affected as it's still within its dimension.

Well he actually was affected as he was casted aside by Ugo using the SP

Anyways. To specifically explain as to why I made the claim that the SP allows for an infinite hierarchy within just Il-Ilah is because any ascension, which is technically something you can do forever for as long as there are enough gods to switch positions with, would not be enough to reach the next higher layer of gods. So while there is no infinite hierarchy (at least none we get to see), it has "space" for one.

Again the “it has space for one” is another assumption not needed tbh.

And the ascension you claim requires using the SP to sacrifice the lower world to ascend higher.

The other ascension you are saying here is similar to David and Sinbad struggle which is why I made a topic for it.
It is just them “swapping” between one another. That could go on forever but the SP can’t handle it.
David and Sinbad struggle can be likened to two racers, let’s say number 8 and 9. They kept overtaking each other. That does not increase their position on the race line, as that would require them to overtake number 7.
Or arrange 10 balls, and name the balls in the 9th and 10th position Sinbad and David. You can keep bringing Sinbad to number 10 and bringing David to number 9, and you can do this forever. This does not increase their position unless you bring them above the 8th ball

Do you understand this?
And besides it was literally referred to as “swapping” and “rearranging”
You can rearrange by swapping and you can swap by rearranging. The two words are synonyms, in Sinbad and David case it would be the case of swapping.

 

[Antvasima]

Pain_to12 seems to make sense to me. What tiers/statistics do you suggest?

 

[Lormac_CC]

Sacred palace was created using Illah’s rukh and Solomon’s Magoi

illah's magoi and Solomon's magic

Now there is absolutely no hierarchy within the SP

Agree

They got 1-B off the scan of Ugo saying they rearranged the hierarchy multiple times but the context of these statement his Sinbad and David struggle where they swap the order of who controls the SP multiple times and they were never swapping the order of any gods above them just between them, just who becomes the guardian of the SP.

I have to disagree here. Infact I believe this is going to be the main problem. How does swapping the Hierarchy work? Now you are saying they where just swapping place between themselves but that doesn't really make sense as David remained the Guardian of the sacred palace throughout the fight.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Pain_to12 seems to make sense to me. What tiers/statistics do you suggest?

Well most likely 1-C/low 1-C
I wish to read magi a bit more to see the most accurate tier

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I have to disagree here. Infact I believe this is going to be the main problem. How does swapping the Hierarchy work? Now you are saying they where just swapping place between themselves but that doesn't really make sense as David remained the Guardian of the sacred palace throughout the fight.

That’s the thing he did not remain the guardian. You should read chapter 350-352
And also chapter 361-364 iirc

it was a constant struggle between the two
And also Ugo statement of Sinbad purposely swapping the hierarchy multiple times with David

 

[Lormac_CC]

These are those we ever saw within Illah’s layer and all were once humans within Illah’s layer before they became

Yes but it doesn't change the fact that Ugo describes illah Hierarchy as having countless worlds and Sinbad saying there are gods in those worlds. Just because the series didn't explore them doesn't mean they don't exist

This is a huge assumption and I see no reason for it. That was why I made no assumption on my post

Agree

Well he actually was affected as he was casted aside by Ugo using the SP

The illah casted down was David illah.

Again the “it has space for one” is another assumption not needed tbh

Again, the Hierarchy does exists

The other ascension you are saying here is similar to David and Sinbad struggle which is why I made a topic for it.

This idea that David and Sinbad forms the Hierarchy in illah layer is just wrong

 

[Lormac_CC]

That’s the thing he did not remain the guardian

He remained, that was why the Rukh kept coming. Ugo said in order to make it stop, Sinbad has to become the guardian of the SP

 

[PrinceofPein]

Yes but it doesn't change the fact that Ugo describes illah Hierarchy as having countless worlds and Sinbad saying there are gods in those worlds. Just because the series didn't explore them doesn't mean they don't exist

Can I get the chapter for this?

He remained, that was why the Rukh kept coming. Ugo said in order to make it stop, Sinbad has to become the guardian of the SP

Rather he said he has to gain full control of the SP to stop something that has already started not that he has to become the guardian, as he and Davi were still struggling for this
Read the chapters up above

This idea that David and Sinbad forms the Hierarchy in illah layer is just wrong

It is no assumption and just following what was shown.
And nah David and Sinbad alone do not form the hierarchy, there maybe more we do not know so what’s safe?
We go with what was shown and stated
Which is why I said their tier will be discussed later on
I will make a post on that

 

[Lormac_CC]

Can I get the chapter for this?

Right, I posted this before. Your didn't really touch them
I had to go and look and look for the raws for this.In chapter 324, When the Ugo first introduced illah multiple structure, he first started by saying he was a god above gods, David asked him what he meant. Ugo told him that God(illah) had a multi structure and it was possible to change their order. Ugo exclusively refered to it as illah multiple structure. Now if you are reading the Viz translation for the first, you might even this say structure is contained in illah. I originally interpreted it as a Hierachy containing god like illah but this looking at it again, this is somewhat contradicted by the same manga panel and the entire series. The second time Ugo describe it. He just say there are many worlds and that he changed the order of gods. Based on him mentioning changing the order of gods, well can tell he is referring to the structure he described above. In chapter 329, Sinbad gave the description. The interpretation of Sinbad description is the main problem. Now normally I will assume that he was referring to the entire verse but that might wrong and he might be referring to the World Ugo governs. One god governed this world , that role was played by Ugo. Alibaba, do you want to know how this world is structured, there are many worlds in this world and Ugo has obtained the formidable power to shit their order.

Rather he said he has to gain full control of the SP to stop something that has already started not that he has to become the guardian, as he and Davi were still struggling for this

It is no assumption and just following what was shown.

So we should leave the statements by Sinbad and Ugo

We go with what was shown and stated
Which is why I said their tier will be

If we are going by what was stated, then there are countless gods in illah layer

 

[PrinceofPein]

Right, I posted this before. Your didn't really touch them
I had to go and look and look for the raws for this.In chapter 324, When the Ugo first introduced illah multiple structure, he first started by saying he was a god above gods, David asked him what he meant. Ugo told him that God(illah) had a multi structure and it was possible to change their order. Ugo exclusively refered to it as illah multiple structure. Now if you are reading the Viz translation for the first, you might even this say structure is contained in illah. I originally interpreted it as a Hierachy containing god like illah but this looking at it again, this is somewhat contradicted by the same manga panel and the entire series. The second time Ugo describe it. He just say there are many worlds and that he changed the order of gods. Based on him mentioning changing the order of gods, well can tell he is referring to the structure he described above. In chapter 329, Sinbad gave the description. The interpretation of Sinbad description is the main problem. Now normally I will assume that he was referring to the entire verse but that might wrong and he might be referring to the World Ugo governs. One god governed this world , that role was played by Ugo. Alibaba, do you want to know how this world is structured, there are many worlds in this world and Ugo has obtained the formidable power to shit their order.

Would reply this properly later on this is a huge misunderstanding

Yes exactly like I said it was a struggle, they are fighting for who stays in control.
Sinbad and David kept swapping
It was literally stated

So we should leave the statements by Sinbad and Ugo

Except those statements you claim are your own interpretation of it and by no means what was meant
I will address it later

If we are going by what was stated, then there are countless gods in illah layer

Never stated or even implied

 

[Lormac_CC]

Would reply this properly later on this is a huge misunderstanding

Right, I would love to get your interpretation.

Yes exactly like I said it was a struggle

they are fighting for who stays in control.

Nope, Sinbad is trying to get control from David. They aren't fighting for who is in control. David remained in control all through out the fight hence why the Rukh kept on flowing. You claimed that David swapping places with Sinbad was how he took the sit of the Sacred palace, you are also claiming the Sinbad swapping places with David would have no effect, that makes no sense

Sinbad and David kept swapping

Kept swapping place on the Hierarchy of gods. You just claimed that it was stated. Sorry, but swapping palaces was never used. Either the Hierarchy of gods is changing or the Hierarchy of gods has been re arranged. Nothing like swapping stuff. Swapping and rearranging are two different things.

Never stated or even implied

I am honestly waiting for your explanation, that Sinbad wasn't referring to Ugo ability to shift the order of gods or that he didn't saying that they where countless worlds and gods in them