Lucifer Morningstar vs SCP 3812

[Planck69]

So, one wants a philosophical debate about the powers of fictional characters and the other thinks the cosmology and the power level it presents is BS and NFL despite not knowing the verse past vsbattles....
Seems legit

Are you talking about me, Peach or Masadaverse fans? Honestly want to know.

 

[BleedingPeach]

So, one wants a philosophical debate about the powers of fictional characters and the other thinks the cosmology and the power level it presents is BS and NFL despite not knowing the verse past vsbattles....

[...]

Also, what the problem would be for bringing philosophy to a versus battle about two characters from fiction? Like I said before: the problem it's not the verse. Their fans on the other hand... They don't talk, they just go by a two word argument and that's all. They don't talk, they impose their reasons of why the THINK a non-MASADA-one couldn't defeat the masada-one. And if the novels would be translated to english, I could try to get the verse, but Kajiri Kamui Kagura has so many "hardliners" that it bores me the things that other bring about the verse

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

@planck

Both of you

@Peach

The thing is, we treat 1-A as power and the New system makes an emphasis in that. If you want to talk about philosophy is OK, but do it away from VS threads.

Mate, we don't impose shit, we debate and if people can't counter the argument then they "lose" (despite not being such a thing as losing in a VS debate online AFAIK), there is nothing more to that.

If it bores you then it isn't for you, if you want to throw shit at the verse or the fans the go ahead and make a thread for it, don't go to a thread that is derailed to hell and back to do so.

As for the match, Lucy wins. Going for what Agnaa told me this thing is somewhat baseline or above and Lucy is quite above baseline.

 

[BleedingPeach]

Impoooooosing right now ÔÖ¬

 

[Nekron2]

Mate, 3812 is infinitely above baseline 1A. He views normal 1A as pure fiction and is one of the few characters to be Outerversal+. He is by far the strongest 1A (aside from high 1A's)

 

[Planck69]

Wasn't the entire Hajun vs Nyarlathotep thread ended because "impossible to quantify compared to each other" Even though that ain't quite the case? Doesn't sound like just talking about power.

But alright. I'll drop it before this gets out of hand.

 

[Planck69]

Mate, 3812 is infinitely above baseline 1A. He views normal 1A as pure fiction and is one of the few characters to be Outerversal+. He is by far the strongest 1A (aside from high 1A's)

Eeeh.. Depends on how Masadaverse and Mythos revisions go.

 

[Nekron2]

Well, I am taliking about present. Obviously, Mythos will be the strongest after the revisions, don't really know about Masadaverse.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Mate, 3812 is infinitely above baseline 1A. He views normal 1A as pure fiction and is one of the few characters to be Outerversal+. He is by far the strongest 1A (aside from high 1A's)

No? Unless he grows in time he is poked and destroyed.

 

[Planck69]

Well, I am taliking about present. Obviously, Mythos will be the strongest after the revisions, don't really know about Masadaverse.

Apparently Taikyoku is an entire hierarchy that exists above the Singularity, which is already a realm with infinite levels of metaphysical existence. A single difference in Taiji is actual complete transcendence now instead of the previously specified 10 which pushes Gods to insane heights.

All I know about ongoing Cthulhu Mythos revisions is that Gates are completely confirmed and there are an infinite number of them. There's still the matter of how they fit in the cosmology to be discerned though but I'm cautiously optimistic of the high-end interpretation being considered.

Apologize for the long post, I just like ranting about 1-A stuff sometimes.

 

[BleedingPeach]

Also... Please, Tony. Don't defend the Masadaverse as if it were a football team (like Manchester United, Real Madrid or Boca Juniors). Look how defensive/aggressive you got. I don't actually care about the whole thing that Hajun is a homicidal maniac that hates everything (literally), and there's a blind monk who can link to Throne. Those things are just great.

 

[Planck69]

Also... Please, Tony. Don't defend the Masadaverse as if it were a football team (like Manchester United, Real Madrid or Boca Juniors). Look how defensive/aggressive you got. I don't actually care about the whole thing that Hajun is a homicidal maniac that hates everything (literally), and there's a blind monk who can link to Throne. Those things are just great.

Let's just go back to ******** on the Masadaverse

But yeah. Let's just continue debating 1-A stuff before this gets out of hand.

 

[First_Witch]

>Insults an entire fanbase without anything to back up his claims

>talks condecending to someone who rightfully questions the legitimacy of said insults

>and now tells him to back off after being confronted, still no shreds of proofs

Like, what? Behavior like this is uncalled for, especially if it derails an entire thread.

And dont give me this "see? bla bla masadafans" shit, i couldn't care less about the fanbase or the source material, so dont even try it. God, i wish i was still a staffmember, this would have been a warning from me.

 

[BleedingPeach]

But you're not. So... Life isn't easy in Germany?


AND ONE - Life isn't easy in Germany - (Official Video)

 

[First_Witch]

Alright, i see how this goes. Have fun being childish and inmature i guess.

And life is good here, don't know what makes you think otherwise.

 

[Planck69]

But you're not. So... Life isn't easy in Germany?

Come on dude, I think we should stop.

Though I would like to point out that users throwing shade at other fanbases is as common as breathing, both on the site or elsewhere.

 

[Nekron2]

@Tony di bugalu

Nope, when 3812 was significantly weaker (below low 1A) his own author(1A) tried to destroy him and failed and 3812 immediately superseded him. Also, from his text, he already either already has reached outerversal+.or is atleat FAR above the baseline 1A (above 1A andrew swann who is stronger than the baseline 1A)

Plus, I thought we are talking about the strongest version of these characters, so by default we're taking the strongest version of lucifer and outerversal+ version of 3812.

 

[First_Witch]

Come on dude, I think we should stop.

Though I would like to point out that users throwing shade at other fanbases is as common as breathing, both on the site or elsewhere.

It being common is not an excuse really. And i woudn't mind it as much if the topic wasnt being heavily derailed by it. Shit on all and everyone in your private space as much as you want, no one is policing your opinions. But if your only contribution to the thread is derailing it by taking a dumb on an entire fanbase, this is the point where we run into trouble.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah this is getting too far. I like ripping on DI as much as the next guy (evidence in this thread) but it's best to not get toxic.

 

[BleedingPeach]

Actually I wasn't trying to be a jerk towards Witch, I just shared a song that I danced in goth clubs (no, it's not a joke). Also, immature? There's a lot of things that other do and they are childish and we don't talk about them. I don't have something against Masadaverse, Umineko or Mythos. Insulting their fans? That's just very basic, I don't like that at all. If you think (Witch) that I was going against you... Keep thinking that. I don't need to get into a dumb fight with someone I only talk by a forum. With that said... I respect you Witch, and also you, Tony.

 

[Planck69]

It being common is not an excuse really. And i woudn't mind it as much if the topic wasnt being heavily derailed by it. Shit on all and everyone in your private space as much as you want, no one is policing your opinions. But if your only contribution to the thread is derailing it by taking a dumb on an entire fanbase, this is the point where we run into trouble.

Prepares Masadaverse diss thread 1

I get your point though, apologize if I derailed the thread with my personal gripes with the fanbase.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

@Tony di bugalu

Nope, when 3812 was significantly weaker (below low 1A) his own author(1A) tried to destroy him and failed and 3812 immediately superseded him. Also, from his text, he already either already has reached outerversal+.or is atleat FAR above the baseline 1A (above 1A andrew swann who is stronger than the baseline 1A)

Plus, I thought we are talking about the strongest version of these characters, so by default we're taking the strongest version of lucifer and outerversal+ version of 3812.

Hmm, interesting.

I mean, from what I was told you can destroy this thing if you are so high compared to his 1-A key, such as Lucy who is quite strong.

Also, I forgot, if this is scp's strongest key then yeah, he stomps.

 

[Nekron2]

@Tony di bugalu

To truly destroy him, you have to be high 1A as far as I think. Plus at the end of the stroy, 3812 became at least a pretty strong 1A (stronger than Ben and possibly swann who are many layers above ben). So, I would say that even in his base form, he is pretty mich equal to Lucifer (he demonstrated feats far greater than lucifer like effortlessly creating 1-B characters while he was below low 1A).

That combined with his ability to supersede and resist much higher beings makes it an easy win for 3812 even at his base form.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

His profile implies the 1-A key is just baseline tho, same with Swann and only comes to shine due to his ability to grow past narratives.

Going from that alone Lucy should be stronger as he has a scaling chain on his ass with a lot of 1-As AFAIK.

>To truly destroy him, you have to be high 1A as far as I think

That's quite NFL tho, to say a stronger 1-A or 1-A+ who only sees it as fiction would be unable to destroy it I mean.

 

[Nekron2]

Well, when he was high 1B, a 1A character who saw 3812 as fiction at that time couldn't kill him (SCP multiverse is low 1A). 1A is infinitely higher than low 1A and low 1A is infinitely higher than 1B, so, by that logic, if we were to assume that he is baseline 1A only high 1A should be able able to kill him as beings who are merely infinite times stronger than him can't really kill him, you have to be more than that.

So, even if you consider him to be baseline 1A (which technically he isn't but that will require a whole lot of explaination), lucifer wouldn't be able to kill him and 3812 would soon supersede him (just like with ben).

 

[Planck69]

Well, when he was high 1B, a 1A character couldn't kill him (SCP multiverse is low 1A). 1A is infinitely higher than low 1A and low 1A is infinitely higher than 1B, so, by that logic, if we were to assume that he is baseline 1A only high 1A should be able able to kill him as beings who are merely infinite times stronger than him can't really kill him, you have to be more than that.
So, even if you consider him to be baseline 1A (which technically he isn't but that will require a whole lot of explaination), lucifer wouldn't be able to kill him and 3812 would soon supersede him (just like with ben).

Dude, I don't think you can even begin to compare the difference between High 1-A and 1-A with that of lower tiers....

 

[Nekron2]

I know but the thing is the dude seeing him as fiction was himself 1A. If a 1A being couldn't kill him even while he was high 1B, how will just a stronger 1A being kill him all of a sudden, now that 3812 is himself 1A?

That's why I said a high 1A could definitely kill 3812. But 1A+ or 1A? I don't see that happening.

 

[Planck69]

I know but the thing is the dude seeing him as fiction was himself 1A. If a 1A being couldn't kill him even while he was high 1B, how will just a stronger 1A being kill him all of a sudden, now that 3812 is himself 1A?
That's why I said a high 1A could definitely kill 3812. But 1A+ or 1A? I don't see that happening.

First, I don't think that logic would really apply to him at his strongest. Second, you know 1-A+ is still a range right? Go back to what I said about the Hadou Gods and I dare you to tell me that they can't yeet his ass out of existence.

 

[OfficialGilgamesh]

@Tony di bugalu
To truly destroy him, you have to be high 1A as far as I think. Plus at the end of the stroy, 3812 became at least a pretty strong 1A (stronger than Ben and possibly swann who are many layers above ben). So, I would say that even in his base form, he is pretty mich equal to Lucifer (he demonstrated feats far greater than lucifer like effortlessly creating 1-B characters while he was below low 1A).

That combined with his ability to supersede and resist much higher beings makes it an easy win for 3812 even at his base form.

When did SCP 3812 create a 1B character?

 

[Nekron2]

@Planck69 Well, when it comes to 1A+ 3812, I'll say only Hajun should be able to take him down. SCP verse isn't too far behind the masadaverse. The base SCP multiverse is low 1A, but there is a multiverse above it which views it as a fiction (where Ben resides), then there is one above it that veiws the previous higher multiverse as fiction and this goes on infinitely. SCP 3812 at his peak is above all these infinite multiverses and views them all as fiction. So, he isn't too far behind. I'll say at his strongest he is equal to Hajun without the tumor.

 

[Nekron2]

@OfficialGilgamesh

Here-

"Destroyed an unknown SCP whose remnants alone became SCP-239"

 

[Planck69]

Well, when it comes to 1A+ 3812, I'll say only Hajun should be able to take him down. SCP verse isn't too far behind the masadaverse. The base SCP multiverse is low 1A, but there is a multiverse above it which views it as a fiction (where Ben resides), then there is one above it that veiws the previous higher multiverse as fiction and this goes on infinitely. SCP 3812 at his peak is above all these infinite multiverses and views them all as fiction. So, he isn't too far behind. I'll say at his strongest he is equal to Hajun without the tumor.

What you just described about SCP-3812 was just baseline 1-A+. A God with a Taiji value of 1 is already above a 1-A+ realm and you'd have to add at least 32 levels of transcendence to that to reach the weakest Gudou God. So no, he's at best comparable to Hypnos (who literally performs a better version of the same feat).

 

[Nekron2]

Well, when it comes to 1A+ 3812, I'll say only Hajun should be able to take him down. SCP verse isn't too far behind the masadaverse. The base SCP multiverse is low 1A, but there is a multiverse above it which views it as a fiction (where Ben resides), then there is one above it that veiws the previous higher multiverse as fiction and this goes on infinitely. SCP 3812 at his peak is above all these infinite multiverses and views them all as fiction. So, he isn't too far behind. I'll say at his strongest he is equal to Hajun without the tumor.

What you just described about SCP-3812 was just baseline 1-A+. A God with a Taiji value of 1 is already above a 1-A+ realm and you'd have to add at least 32 levels of transcendence to that to reach the weakest Gudou God. So no, he's at best comparable to Hypnos (who literally performs a better version of the same feat).

That's certainly impressive to say the least, honestly, i couldn't find any of this on the official wikia. Do you have a source where I could read more about this?

 

[Planck69]

That's certainly impressive to say the least, honestly, i couldn't find any of this on the official wikia. Do you have a source where I could read more about this?

This is mostly from a brief overview of the Masadaverse revisions that Ravenous gave in the Hajun vs Nyar thread so there isn't a complete blog yet I'm afraid. The weakest Gudou God has a Taiji of 33 if that was confusing.

The Mythos revisions and their progress can be followed on these blogs but from what I can tell there's an infinite multiversal hierarchy which is 1-A+ that may possibly be superseded by another infinite hierarchy of Gates (This hierarchy being here in particular is what's being evaluated not the hierarchy being infinite, which is confirmed) before the Outer Void is reached.

 

[Nekron2]

Well, to be frank the Masadaverse exaplaination page is one the most confusing page on the wikia. Because though I understood the concept of Taiji but the page doesn't really mention about the infinite 1A+ multiverse in detail anywhere (or to be specific it really doesn't explain the actual cosmology apart from the throne).

So, is there anywhere I can read about the actual cosmology of the Masadaverse (the 1A+ multiverse and stuff)?

 

[Planck69]

Well, to be frank the Masadaverse exaplaination page is one the most confusing page on the wikia. Because though I understood the concept of Taiji but the page doesn't really mention about the infinite 1A+ multiverse in detail anywhere (or to be specific it really doesn't explain the actual cosmology apart from the throne).
So, is there anywhere I can read about the actual cosmology of the Masadaverse (the 1A+ multiverse and stuff)?

I feel you man. This is mostly what I understood from Ravenous, who seems to be spearheading the revisions so I guess you can take it with a grain of salt. But I guess it's pretty certain, what with Masada fans comparing characters to Mythos top-tiers now (doubtful but what do I know?). Though what I really want to know is who screwed up the translations so badly that this is only brought up now.

 

[PsychoWarper]

The only person who could legitimately be compared to the Outer Gods is Peak Hajun and those who scale, no other character (Nakiri doesnt exist so he dont count) can even come "close".

The Masadaverse Explanation Page is very very bad and in serious need of repair. Ravenous is spear heading the revision but has gotten extremely busy IRL, once they are available they should create the 1-A CRT thread to discuss the Shinza Gods tiers within the new system.

 

[Planck69]

The only person who could legitimately be compared to the Outer Gods is Peak Hajun and those who scale, no other character (Nakiri doesnt exist so he dont count) can even come "close".
The Masadaverse Explanation Page is very very bad and in serious need of repair. Ravenous is spear heading the revision but has gotten extremely busy IRL, once they are available they should create the 1-A CRT thread to discuss the Shinza Gods tiers within the new system.

To be fair, every high-end 1-A verse is in completely shitty shape with several misconceptions being preached as gospel (Nyarlathotep being the "weakest" Outer God, Human Domain being 1-A, everything about Hajun etc). Hopefully these seemingly never-ending revisions will come around to being implemented soon. I really hate seeing the Mythos in proverbial shambles.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Yes several of the top verses are in need of repair, I can absolutely agree on that.

Also iirc Shub being the strongest Outer God hasnt been really found anywhere, so yeah CM defiantly needs some help.

 

[Planck69]

Yes several of the top verses are in need of repair, I can absolutely agree on that.
Also iirc Shub being the strongest Outer God hasnt been really found anywhere, so yeah CM defiantly needs some help.

No proof even exists that there even is a hierarchy among the Archetypes (went along with it since Azzy-senpai did as well though...). The Great Old Ones being likened to humans before themselves when compared to Outer Gods isn't ever stated (though with what I understand of the new cosmology, this is true anyway). The "Only two Gates" argument still floats around despite infinite gates being a bare minimum.

Yeah, the Mythos is horrendous right now.