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This is perfect
I hope everybody else is convinced from this
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Low 2-C Battle of Gods, but I have a good argument :3
- Thread starter Nullflowerblush
- Start date
- Status
I hope everybody else is convinced from this
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And I have already said that the size is extremely important because we don't treat destruction of pocket dimensions along with the universe (even if they have a different time-space continuum) as evidence of Low 2-C. Destruction of pocket dimensions =/= time is also destroyed on a universal scale. It just means the character possesses limited 4-D power which is unquantifiable. Again, nothing is going to happen here if that's your main argument, because you'd need to change the standards first.
Like, this argument is very old, as I have already stated earlier. I used it when I joined the wiki. You'd think if the standards allowed it, BoG would have been Low 2-C already because they were going to destroy RoSaT and later even Vegeta destroyed it twice. It's not like this isn't extremely common knowledge or argument that's only surfacing now years after DBS has ended.
Like, this argument is very old, as I have already stated earlier. I used it when I joined the wiki. You'd think if the standards allowed it, BoG would have been Low 2-C already because they were going to destroy RoSaT and later even Vegeta destroyed it twice. It's not like this isn't extremely common knowledge or argument that's only surfacing now years after DBS has ended.
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Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 8,920
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- #403
I figured that would be the argument.
Alrighty then, what about the Demon Realm?
Alrighty then, what about the Demon Realm?
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Wow, this is such a shitshow, but I not sure using ROSAT as a point in argument will work here as technically ROSAT is a pocket dimension as mentioned already in this thread, but I can kinda argue that technically destroying the entryway to the ROSAT doesn’t mean the dimension is destroyed as there is no statements about the dimension being destroyed when Vegetta destroyed the doorway.
Then again, you can argue it was destroyed alongside the entryway.
Then again, you can argue it was destroyed alongside the entryway.
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What about Demon Realm?
Also, if I am not able to explain it properly, you can send a message on DontTalk's message wall, or Ultima's. They can probably offer an explanation on this matter that's easier to understand.
Also, if I am not able to explain it properly, you can send a message on DontTalk's message wall, or Ultima's. They can probably offer an explanation on this matter that's easier to understand.
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 8,920
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- #406
Why wouldn't the Demon Realm be a separate timespace?
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What standard prevents it from being used as evidence? If the standard somehow stops it then the standard is wrong which we can just use this thread to change as well. Affecting the Rosat should result in low 2-C, it’s literally not debatable. We’re not using it for the size, we’re using it for the fact that it’s in another space.
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https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...c7v2_hq.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20200102133829
That reminds me of this scan I found online.
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Because again ROSAT isn’t even the size of the universe. It is literally a pocket dimension that isn’t even remotely close to being a full size universe as far as I am aware and as such, not sure if it is a valid point to use since you can technically argue the dimension for ROSAT can simply been denied access to the dimension via destroying the entryway rather than destroying the dimension of ROSAT unto itself
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None of that is actually proof of having a separate space-time continuum. It's a place governed by magic so it would make sense that the demons have somehow shielded their realm so that it is inaccessible for the Supreme Kais and all. Different spatial realms with different properties can coexist within a same timeline. Nothing is really known about the realm and that little information just speaks about it having different properties, not that it has a different timeline altogether.
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 8,920
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- #412
Them operating under a different causality isn't enough?
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It’s a shame that none of this even slightly matters, since he still was gonna destroy the entirety of multiple universe sized spaces
it’s literally not possible to debunk that be affected the entirety of a low 2-C structure
it’s literally not possible to debunk that be affected the entirety of a low 2-C structure
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5 pages? This is ridiculous. It’s no wonder why most of these turn into staff only threads.
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Because people have to keep repeating themselves to individuals with selective reading.
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Told ya this would happen lol
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Tbf we are talking about the feat that occurred with Goku vs Beerus which while it did stated it will destroy the universe. At the same time, it was never stated it was gonna destroy time ie. The past, present, future of said universe during their battle.
Also, while I am unsure about multiple universe size spaces, presently at the moment, we do have one of the scans here that mention the word “Macrocosm” which it is safe to assume the demon realm and the living world including the afterlife is part of the larger universe overall.
As such, I am currently neutral to this minor upgrade. Not leaning towards agreeing with it per se.
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What different causality? If you're referring to the info about how the living world is based on science and the demon world is based on magic, that's not talking about causality at all. It's just what is more prevalent in those worlds. Humans/humanoids use science to do stuff, while beings like Dabura make use of magic. I don't know where this "causality" is even coming from.
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Anyway, I don't get how this site treats DBS at ALL. Beerus and Champa used to be 2-C, now they're At Least Low 2-C. Meanwhile Whis gets it for being more powerful than the both of them combined, meaning Champa + Beerus = 1+1 = 2 and Whis is far greater than 2.
So their shared speculative feat of destroying both universes got downgraded but Angels and higher get it just from being much stronger. Then practically every sitting GoD gets downgraded and also gets their reasoning downgraded to being comparable or superior to Toppo who's been a candidate for 0.00001% of the time they've been Master GoDs, which is likely upward of 100 million years.
Then every GoD also gets "should not be much weaker than Beerus or Champa" like WHO decided they were the models for measuring power?
"After witnessing Jiren's power which was massively held back, Whis stated that Jiren's full strength is at the level of Gods of Destruction, and could perhaps even surpass it"
This statement is objectively wrong. Provide the original Japanese if I'm wrong, but Whis said:
-Meanwhile, Jiren appears to be far from full power.
-...like a GoD. He is one who's reached that state. Maybe even surpassed it.
-"There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat"
-"It appears the rumor is true"
He said this before he even saw Jiren's full strength, so idk how this conclusion was drawn.
So their shared speculative feat of destroying both universes got downgraded but Angels and higher get it just from being much stronger. Then practically every sitting GoD gets downgraded and also gets their reasoning downgraded to being comparable or superior to Toppo who's been a candidate for 0.00001% of the time they've been Master GoDs, which is likely upward of 100 million years.
Then every GoD also gets "should not be much weaker than Beerus or Champa" like WHO decided they were the models for measuring power?
"After witnessing Jiren's power which was massively held back, Whis stated that Jiren's full strength is at the level of Gods of Destruction, and could perhaps even surpass it"
This statement is objectively wrong. Provide the original Japanese if I'm wrong, but Whis said:
-Meanwhile, Jiren appears to be far from full power.
-...like a GoD. He is one who's reached that state. Maybe even surpassed it.
-"There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat"
-"It appears the rumor is true"
He said this before he even saw Jiren's full strength, so idk how this conclusion was drawn.
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 8,920
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- #420
The Wiki currently considers the Demon Realm and its inhabitants to operate under a different causality. It's why Xenoverse and Heroes Demons have Type 4 Acausality, from my knowledge.
ProudLearner
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Their attack reach the afterlife which is another Universal size realm.
At Least 3-A as a compromise?
At Least 3-A as a compromise?
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sorry but we don't do compromises when one thing is obviously true
low 2-C battle of gods is extremely blatantly obvious, this is like people trying to argue that oranges are orange colored
no matter how much I repeat it literally not a single person has even acknowledged or attempted to make any kind of counterargument to this. This argument is the big picture that nobody can counter because it's true
the only way I see low 2-C not happening is because of the site just being generally bad when it comes to dragon ball and people just downplaying or some moderator decides to get rid of good points because they just can or the wiki deciding it's just gonna have some new "standard" or rule that conveniently helps downplay dbs for no reason
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Maybe they are treated that way in Xenoverse and Heroes because of info specific to those games. That's not how we treat it in canon, and info from games don't scale back to canon.
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Actually upon further research regarding the cosmology, the Kaioshin realm actually smaller than the Macrocosm and get this, it actually revolves around the larger universe.
I not gonna lie as this is entirely dishonest as to say no one has a counter to the main big argument since there is actually a guide about the universe of DBS. You actually need proof that it affects the time and space, rather than just space in the first place.
Specifically here: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/gods-and-cosmos/universe/
@ProudLearner Apologies for the tag, but upon further research, I find this one:
“It is made up of a giant crystalline sphere, about a 10th the size of the macrocosm, and it revolves around the macrocosm like a moon. See the following map for a more detailed view of the Kaiōshin Realm.”
Edit: Mixed up the Kaioshin Realm with afterlife. As such, I corrected my comment.
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why are you using a fansite for your points?
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Because this is more or less is related to how we treat the cosmology and how it affects the ratings here.
Also it is a site that has official guidebooks being translated into English.
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That’s not afterlife, tho
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 8,920
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- Thread starter
- #428
That's the Sacred World of Kai.
I've done some digging, and there is no evidence for their Type 4 Acausality in their pages. I don't care that much though. That's another topic for another day, but alright.
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well at least somebody said something now, but I still noticed something interesting
"Low 2-C | Universe level+: Characters who are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums of a universal scale. However, it can be more generally fulfilled by any 4-dimensional space that is either:
A) Equivalent to a large extra dimensional space. That is, a higher-dimensional "bulk" space which embeds lower-dimensional ones (Such as our universe) as subsets of itself, whose dimensions are not microscopic / compactified."
in other words, it doesn't even need to be destruction of "the dimension of time" it can just be the destruction of multiple universe sized spaces to be low 2-C anyways
but even so, you forgot to include that they specify many times that the "entire" universe is being destroyed, which still would include time
and it's not like dragon ball is a verse that never acknowledges time cause yknow, zamasu stuff
timeline destruction is 4d, but an actual 4th dimension feat is also 4d
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The fact that a planetary space-time can be destroyed by charging up ki but punches in a much stronger form apparently don't do the same thing on a universal scale is weird. They could interact with Zamasu who was literally space-time itself?
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But it didn’t even say multiple universe sized spaces though as it literally say 4 dimensional space which always involve time.
Even the tier outright mentioned 4 dimensional space as clear as day too.
Although honestly this thread has dragged on long enough as it can get too.
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 8,920
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- #433
No, in order to reach Low 2-C, you need to affect a space that is qualitatively superior to an infinite 3-D space, not quantitatively.
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Tbf we talking about a earlier feat and in the case of Zamasu, it is mainly due to him fusing with a universe and time itself
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Oh wait, now you mentioned ROSAT stuff. If I not mistaken, the feats that involved Vegeta doing that was after Goku’s battle with Beerus chronologically wise.
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In fact it was after Goku Black arc.
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THAT WAS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKINGUh oh 👁👁
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Basically, you need to be able to destroy a space that has an uncountably infinite difference than a 3D realm.
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For those who didn't read, its basically saying the demon realm and outer space are two different dimensions.
So from what i've read in this thread, basically the whole problem is that you need to prove parts of the macrocosm is spatio temporally isolated, and that proves its in a completely different dimension?
So if i'm not wrong, unless if theres something wrong with the scan, it should meet the requirements
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