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Let's not derail
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Low 2-C Battle of Gods, but I have a good argument :3
- Thread starter Nullflowerblush
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Yeah, scaling from Merus
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Oh, well the feat should apply backwards then. Not exactly too fresh on the scaling but in BoG Goku didn’t notice the difference in power between SSG and regular SSJ, regardless, if Black Arc Vegeta was at least 50x stronger than this Goku in base, universal+ doesn’t work by applying multipliers so it should really be the same situation.
@Teezar
Nobody was saying Goku surpassed time when he was able to beat Hit’s ability through prediction. Jiren used brute force. But I won’t digress further on this point.
Affecting space-time on a universal scale is simply range. The fact that they can destroy planetary space-time while suppressed + the fact they can destroy the physical universe with said ki gives them spatial range and temporal ability.
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,056
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- #325
Beerus and Champa were threatening to destroy both Universe 6 and Universe 7 simultaneously. Destroying one universe on its own would automatically be considered a 3-A feat, but because they were threatening to destroy two, it is automatically assumed they were affecting these universe's spatio-temporal components (4-D axis); in order to actually reach another timespace, you would need to first overcome your own 4-D axis.
With that being said, Goku and Beerus were threatening to completely destroy the entirety Universe 7, as purported by Elder Kai, Whis, the narrator, and Toei's official episode summaries; this would obviously include the Room of Spirit and Time. Currently, the Wiki considers the Room of Spirit and Time to be a separate timespace. And, regardless of its size, in order for their damage to extend into this dimension, their damage would have to be extending into the 4-D axis; much like Beerus and Champa would have to overcome Universe 6's 4-D axis to reach the next universe over, Goku and Beerus would have to overcome the 4-D axis of the Universe in order to totally erase the Room of Spirit and Time.
To make it simpler to understand, because Dimensional Tiering is pretty annoying in general: think of it as two glasses of water—the Universe and the Room of Spirit and Time. They are separate timespaces, so separate glasses of water. In order for Goku and Beerus to destroy the Room of Spirit and Time, they would have to transcend their glass (3-D axis) and then extend their damage into the outside world (4-D axis) before crossing over into the next glass.
With that being said, Goku and Beerus were threatening to completely destroy the entirety Universe 7, as purported by Elder Kai, Whis, the narrator, and Toei's official episode summaries; this would obviously include the Room of Spirit and Time. Currently, the Wiki considers the Room of Spirit and Time to be a separate timespace. And, regardless of its size, in order for their damage to extend into this dimension, their damage would have to be extending into the 4-D axis; much like Beerus and Champa would have to overcome Universe 6's 4-D axis to reach the next universe over, Goku and Beerus would have to overcome the 4-D axis of the Universe in order to totally erase the Room of Spirit and Time.
To make it simpler to understand, because Dimensional Tiering is pretty annoying in general: think of it as two glasses of water—the Universe and the Room of Spirit and Time. They are separate timespaces, so separate glasses of water. In order for Goku and Beerus to destroy the Room of Spirit and Time, they would have to transcend their glass (3-D axis) and then extend their damage into the outside world (4-D axis) before crossing over into the next glass.
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This is not obvious actually and may not even be true. This is just something you are stating
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,056
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- #327
You've gotta be kidding me.
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You brought a statement of jiren being beyond time which I addressed.
Destruction of a universal space-time continuum is Low 2C in this platform, I don't know of Destruction of a planetary space-time but based on pocket dimensions like in naruto and NNT it's high-4C based on them containing stars.
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,056
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- #329
Room of Spirit and Time is a part of the Universe/contained within the Universe → The entire Universe is destroyed → The Room of Spirit and Time is destroyed
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Assumptions don't work Buddy. Unless is explicity stated that isolated pocket dimension AKA ROSAT, was going to be destroyed, we can't assume that It was.
Ans even then, if some says "I'm going to destroy the entire Universe", the wiki still treats the feat as 3-A regardless, Time needs to be EXPLICITY STATED to be destroyed, which AKM already pointed out.
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Actually, there are multiple instances of ROSAT being called a "separate dimension" and a "different universe". Going back over old dialogue and events shows that it is treated as quite different from say, the Kaioshin realm
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Yes this is what we've been repeating for the past 300 years. Nice explain bro.
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It should also be noted that the ROSAT doesn’t “exist” in the regular universe by any means.
Destroying the door effectively isolates that dimension from our universe, it doesn’t destroy the dimension itself. If you blew up the entirety of Kami’s lookout (or destroy the building itself like Piccolo did), that place is entirely still intact.
Vegeta blowing up that place’s space and time brought him back to the same spatiotemporal position that he was in that dimension, in our universe. In other words, destroying space and time in that dimension placed him in those same coordinates in our universe once he reappeared. He transposes himself on top of our reality.
And since you don’t cross tier 2 via multipliers it’s also a feat for BoG Goku.
Destroying the door effectively isolates that dimension from our universe, it doesn’t destroy the dimension itself. If you blew up the entirety of Kami’s lookout (or destroy the building itself like Piccolo did), that place is entirely still intact.
Vegeta blowing up that place’s space and time brought him back to the same spatiotemporal position that he was in that dimension, in our universe. In other words, destroying space and time in that dimension placed him in those same coordinates in our universe once he reappeared. He transposes himself on top of our reality.
And since you don’t cross tier 2 via multipliers it’s also a feat for BoG Goku.
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english pls
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I thought that was simple lol.
Destroying access to ROSAT =\= destroying ROSAT neither space nor time
Destroying Earth =\= destroying ROSAT
Destroying ROSAT’s space and time = destroying ROSAT and proves time is affected
Destroying ROSAT’s space and time superimposes your position in that dimension on top of that same position in our universe
(Meaning let’s say there’s a river. The river represents the ROSAT’s space and time. And there is a fish in the river. If I instantly evaporate all of the water in the river, the same coordinates the fish held in the water, it now holds in air.)
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I don't understand, are you in favour of the OP, or you are on the disagree side?I thought that was simple lol.
Destroying access to ROSAT =\= destroying ROSAT neither space nor time
Destroying Earth =\= destroying ROSAT
Destroying ROSAT’s space and time = destroying ROSAT and proves time is affected
Destroying ROSAT’s space and time superimposes your position in that dimension on top of that same position in our universe
(Meaning let’s say there’s a river. The river represents the ROSAT’s space and time. And there is a fish in the river. If I instantly evaporate all of the water in the river, the same coordinates the fish held in the water, it now holds in air.)
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Tbf, I still want to see an actual debunk of why the BoG feat is tier 3 rather than 2, and not the classical "space time is not stated to be affected" Which, to be honest, sounds just like a way to avoid any possible discussion via nitpicking to the extreme the Tiering system.
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I see, but I don't understand, does this support or hinder low 2-C universe 7?I thought that was simple lol.
Destroying access to ROSAT =\= destroying ROSAT neither space nor time
Destroying Earth =\= destroying ROSAT
Destroying ROSAT’s space and time = destroying ROSAT and proves time is affected
Destroying ROSAT’s space and time superimposes your position in that dimension on top of that same position in our universe
(Meaning let’s say there’s a river. The river represents the ROSAT’s space and time. And there is a fish in the river. If I instantly evaporate all of the water in the river, the same coordinates the fish held in the water, it now holds in air.)
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Supports.
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,056
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- #340
I could start arguing for the Demon Realm, if you wish.
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I see.
Actually this argument also works with the demon realm and supreme kai realm.
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I'm agreeing with this so far. Unsure of if the cosmology blog will affect this at all, but I don't think it should.
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,056
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- #343
Goku can sense Gohan on Earth from the Sacred World of Kai, but at the same time, nobody could sense Gohan on the Kai's faraway planet from Earth, so either: the Sacred World of the Kai is not a separate timespace; or once you enter it, you can sense everything, seeing as how the Sacred World of Kai orbits around the universal globe.
But yeah, the Demon Realm is pretty much untouchable- I mean, literally. No one, not even the Supreme Kai who orbit the universe and purportedly view the Living World as a lower world, can see what goes on in the Demon Realm—not even through their clairvoyant abilities. Along with that, magic in that "alternate dimension" holds a greater influence than science; in fact, the Wiki currently uses this to grant the Xenoverse Demons a Type 4 Acausality. To argue that this... "place" operates under the same space-time continuum as the Universe is wacky.
But yeah, the Demon Realm is pretty much untouchable- I mean, literally. No one, not even the Supreme Kai who orbit the universe and purportedly view the Living World as a lower world, can see what goes on in the Demon Realm—not even through their clairvoyant abilities. Along with that, magic in that "alternate dimension" holds a greater influence than science; in fact, the Wiki currently uses this to grant the Xenoverse Demons a Type 4 Acausality. To argue that this... "place" operates under the same space-time continuum as the Universe is wacky.
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I personally think all of this stuff is pointless
complete universal destruction is complete universal destruction, and that’s just an undeniable fact
Low 2-C should have been accepted from the original post alone
complete universal destruction is complete universal destruction, and that’s just an undeniable fact
Low 2-C should have been accepted from the original post alone
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Since it was brought up, I will clarify.
RoSaT is not a universe-sized space time continuum. It's planet-sized. If it's not a universe-sized dimension, destroying it isn't Low 2-C either. I am pretty sure this stuff is mentioned somewhere in the notes.
RoSaT is not a universe-sized space time continuum. It's planet-sized. If it's not a universe-sized dimension, destroying it isn't Low 2-C either. I am pretty sure this stuff is mentioned somewhere in the notes.
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That's not the point at all. I'm pretty sure we clarified that 78 times now.
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I don't think they're arguing that the RoSaT is Low 2-C, they're just saying that the living universe is one space-time continuum and the RoSaT is another (albeit much smaller). That would mean that the living universe of the macrocosm would be Low 2-C.
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Yeah, that is an argument from 2015-2017. BoG would have been Low 2-C already if that's how the standards worked.
Breaching into the 4-D axis is unquantifiable. Comic characters do that all the time. Super Buu was able to do it too. You need to destroy a universe-sized space time continuum in order to get Low 2-C.
Breaching into the 4-D axis is unquantifiable. Comic characters do that all the time. Super Buu was able to do it too. You need to destroy a universe-sized space time continuum in order to get Low 2-C.
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I actually don't still see this as low 2-C, e.g black holes if I'm not wrong are space-time also so destroying a universe which contains black holes will still be 3A as the black holes aren't universal in size. Same with ROSAT that's planetary space-time it would still be 3A unless it's stated time of the entire universe was affected.
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Black holes is not separate from universes spacetime. ROSAT is completely separate space time.
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But planetary size so it's not enough for Low 2-C.
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They said the entire universe was going to be destroyed, and their attacks were effecting the 4D axis at the same time, this is low 2-C.
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Suze doesn't matte- it's size has nothing to do with the point, again it can still be a space time without being low 2-C, the point is that they were effecting 4D axis by effecting it.
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I mean, I know. If you go back and search for some thread from 2017, you'll find that I made the exact same argument lmao. That's why I know all of this has been discussed already.
Apparently, it's not something that can be proved. If that were the case, any character with universal range for normal attacks and who is able to breach into the 4-D axis due to some space-time disruption or ability to destroy a pocket dimension, would be rated as Low 2-C. 3-D range is meaningless here. And breaching/destroying a non universe-sized dimension is also unquantifiable.
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If I'm not wrong, the statement of the planet-sized rosat comes goku so his statement is questionable with the other rosat statements
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I think the whole "destroy time for 4d" thing is bullshit anyways but either way fluffy has basically worded it perfectly and debunked all the counterarguments
I don't really see the point in people repeating the same disproven arguments to prevent low 2-C battle of gods from going through
I don't really see the point in people repeating the same disproven arguments to prevent low 2-C battle of gods from going through
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Can you send the others statements?
Nullflowerblush
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- #358
I'm sorry, but isn't this the same argument as the one used to get Beerus and Champa's feat to 2-C?
Beerus and Champa threaten to destroy Universes 6 and 7, which is automatically assumed to be a 3-A feat by the Wiki's standards.
However, later evidence confirms that since the damage extended to multiple timespaces, then the 4-D axis was involved, bumping the feat to 2-C.
Likewise, Goku and Beerus threaten to destroy Universe 7, which is automatically assumed to be a 3-A feat by the Wiki's standards.
However, since the damage extended to multiple timespaces (i.e., RoSaT
This is not about the size of the dimension in question. They were threatening to destroy an entire universe (as well as the worlds that lied beyond that universe; the Other World, Sacred World of the Kai, and Demon Realm) and were threatening the 4-D axis. Put the two together, and the sum is the destruction of a universal timespace. How come Beerus and Champa get this treatment and not Goku and Beerus? Is a planet-sized timespace too inadequate to qualify for this standard? Because it's still a separate spatiotemporal dimension regardless.
It came from Mr. Popo. Goku just relayed the information to Gohan.
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it's not unquantifiable at all tho? It's literally just a low 4d feat because we know that they're strong enough to affect a size larger than infinite 3d
I don't think there's actually any room for argument here, even with the wiki rules
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Correct me if I'm wrong but effecting the entire universe with your attacks that you breach into other separate space time continuums is at least universe+ range, because you should be directly effecting the 4D axis. This means that effecting time is proven. And thus the universe destruction should include time.
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