Lord of the Rings revisions

[Tyranno223]

Been off for a bit but during that time I've read a lot of Tolkiens works. Not sure what the current discussion is atm so if I could be put up to speed that would be good.

For Dragons I wanna add that Fall of Gondolin states Dragon fire can melt stone and Iron and I believe also Children of Húrin. Both Glaurung and Smaug also desolated several miles of land but I feel those events might be too vague.

As for speed I'd argue Dragons are around the level of Maia since Gandalf considered Smaug a being of immense power in the Unfinished Tales, so most likelt they can scale from the Balrogs flying from Angband to Lammoth.

If not I assume they scale to the Fell Beasts winged speed which accordong to Gandalf can cross at least 200 leagues in a few hours, assuming 3 hours that's 230 MPH or 370 Kilometers per hour.

Dragon scales are harder than Iron according to Fall of Gondolin and Children of Húrin and also comparable to even Mithril in the Hobbit when Thorin showed the Mithril shirt to Bilbo

Melting iron and stone is very reasonable considering the calcs we already have for Smaug and Ancalagon, but at the same time they aren't overly relevant because of that (unless we make a general Dragon page at some point)

The canonicity of Tolkien's writings is a rather messy thing, but as long as it's not contradictory, or from a plainly discarded or outdated work, I believe it should be fine.

Scaling Smaug to the Maiar feels rather iffy to me. Sure, the Winged Dragons of the First Age were Morgoth's trump card, even compared to the Balrogs, but Smaug was born in the Third Age (being young in his attack on Erebor) and we know little of how he compares to his forebearers. Gandalf considers him a dangerous being, but he's speaking in the context of Middle-Earth as a whole, and whether he was personally threatened by him is unknown (plus we see Gandalf considered the Necromancer a graver threat, and he was able to drive off this weakened Sauron with the rest of the White Council).

The Fell Beast scaling should be fine, although we might need to put it down as a "possibly" or "likely" as this assumption relies on Smaug being stronger than a fell beast.

 

[Tyranno223]

Well if we are gonna try and go for highest canon then I'd reckon Tolkiens letters will be tbe highest followed by any other personal writings such as Round Earth cosmology.

Granted, I don't believe any of that necessarily contradicts with power scaling. Dragons are always portrayed as exceedingly powerful.


On Mithril sadly found out the dragon scale comparison is film only. Hobbit book does say it's "power and strength is triple steel" so at minimum 3x better than Tempered steel overall would be a good baseline and I assume it's not hust hardness but toughness and strength as well.

Dragon scales can withstand Elvish weaponry which can cut thru Troll flesh which is said to be harder than stone at the very least a full powered swing from Boromirs normal sword bounced off of a Troll and dent kt a bit.

it's also claimed that no arrow (from all the hunters of the world) could pierce Frodo's mail by Gimli. This could include the black arrow which killed Smaug (albeit that too is hard to measure given it was a weak spot) but it was specifically regarding hunters.

 

[TheMerchant66]

Nothing suggests Smaug comes from a stock of dragons that are "diminished" and Gandalf considered a possible alliance of Smaug and Sauron to be something that has to be avoided at all costs, idk I just feel Smaug us genuinely a threat that if Gandalf could have handled even in a hard fight he would have or at lrast mobilized the white council.


When Frodo claimed the one Ring and Sauron felt him he shoon all of Barad-Dûr and sent a tremor across Mordor + it also shows his nental influence over his armies who quickly became fearful at the forced they were fighting once Sauron directing then went away, it's also mentioned in the Appendixes that Sauron had a "shadow" over the free peoples that diminished them as well, large scale mental influence is something in Saurons repertoire.

 

[TheMerchant66]

Ancalagon most likely reacted vs. Vingilot which traveled to "starless voids" or at the very least is fast enough to travel fron Arda to where Venus is at (Eärendils Silmaril is essentially Venus for the Flat earth cosmology) would that be enough to suggest MFTL Ancalagon?

 

[Antvasima]

I hope that you will be able to reach agreements here (that I can then give go-aheads to).

 

[Dinamic8000]

Ancalagon most likely reacted vs. Vingilot which traveled to "starless voids" or at the very least is fast enough to travel fron Arda to where Venus is at (Eärendils Silmaril is essentially Venus for the Flat earth cosmology) would that be enough to suggest MFTL Ancalagon?

I agree about Ancalagon scaling to Vingilot, but we need to find what part of the book says that it could go through into the cold void of space and return in less than a day like the profile suggest

I hope that you will be able to reach agreements here (that I can then give go-aheads to).

We are midway through the revision on the Dragons profiles, having the 3 main ones more consistent AP now, although i think it is okay if the other gentleman are trying to find a alternative way to scale things


In parallel to this i was thinking of improve the verse page adding the accepted calculations, and also removing the big amount of potencial profiles with just a name on it, i dunno, it makes all so unpolished

 

[Tyranno223]

I agree about Ancalagon scaling to Vingilot, but we need to find what part of the book says that it could go through into the cold void of space and return in less than a day like the profile suggest



We are midway through the revision on the Dragons profiles, having the 3 main ones more consistent AP now, although i think it is okay if the other gentleman are trying to find a alternative way to scale things


In parallel to this i was thinking of improve the verse page adding the accepted calculations, and also removing the big amount of potencial profiles with just a name on it, i dunno, it makes all so unpolished

The Vigilot was scaled to MFTL+ in the (now closed) speed thread, so that's already fine. The quote should be there, I'll find it in a sec.

Edit: here

"But they took Vingilot, and hallowed it, and bore it away through Valimor to the uttermost rim of the world; and there it passed through the Door of Night and was lifted up even into the oceans of heaven".

"Far he journeyed in that ship, even into the starless voids; but most often was he seen at morning or at evening, glimmering in sunrise or sunset, as he came back to Valinor from voyages beyond the confines of the world".

 

[Tyranno223]

Nothing suggests Smaug comes from a stock of dragons that are "diminished" and Gandalf considered a possible alliance of Smaug and Sauron to be something that has to be avoided at all costs, idk I just feel Smaug us genuinely a threat that if Gandalf could have handled even in a hard fight he would have or at lrast mobilized the white council.


When Frodo claimed the one Ring and Sauron felt him he shoon all of Barad-Dûr and sent a tremor across Mordor + it also shows his nental influence over his armies who quickly became fearful at the forced they were fighting once Sauron directing then went away, it's also mentioned in the Appendixes that Sauron had a "shadow" over the free peoples that diminished them as well, large scale mental influence is something in Saurons repertoire.

I'm cautious scaling Smaug to the First Age Dragons because such a vast amount of time has passed (with LOTR characters generally being inferior in successive generations, see the Elves or Dunedain for instance) and due to the fact he isn't directly compared to them. Furthermore, while Winged Dragons are Morgoth's trump card, even compared to the Balrogs, the latter are his chief servants, and it's hard to tell which beings are generally stronger (outside of Ancalagon and Glaurung, but they are strong even among dragons).

That being said, I admit there isn't strong evidence not to scale Smaug to the Winged Dragons of the past, especially as he is the mightiest dragon of the Third Age. Maybe a compromise on Low 7-C, possibly Low 7-B Likely Higher? Basically using his calc and possibly scaling him to the Balrog feat.

Can someone calc the Ring feat? Might add to/provide a new tier.

 

[Tyranno223]

On an aside, once the dragons are done, it should be a relatively simple matter of scaling the Elves and other relevant characters, at least in regard to tiers. Might need to check Boromir, as I'm sure he has a feat above 10-A.

 

[Antvasima]

We are midway through the revision on the Dragons profiles, having the 3 main ones more consistent AP now, although i think it is okay if the other gentleman are trying to find a alternative way to scale things

Okay. No problem.

In parallel to this i was thinking of improve the verse page adding the accepted calculations, and also removing the big amount of potencial profiles with just a name on it, i dunno, it makes all so unpolished

That seems good to me at least, if the other members here are fine with it.

 

[Dinamic8000]

That being said, I admit there isn't strong evidence not to scale Smaug to the Winged Dragons of the past, especially as he is the mightiest dragon of the Third Age. Maybe a compromise on Low 7-C, possibly Low 7-B Likely Higher? Basically using his calc and possibly scaling him to the Balrog feat.

Seems good to me

Can someone calc the Ring feat? Might add to/provide a new tier.

Could you remember me what feat is that?

That seems good to me at least, if the other members here are fine with it.

Since no one complained i made the changes

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. It is very appreciated.

 

[Tyranno223]

Could you remember me what feat is that?

Return of the King - Mount Doom "...as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-Dúr was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown."

Basically Mount Doom to at least Barad-Dúr was shook.

 

[Dinamic8000]

Return of the King - Mount Doom "...as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-Dúr was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown."

Basically Mount Doom to at least Barad-Dúr was shook.

I have done a calc blog, dunno if it is correct

 

[Antvasima]

Return of the King - Mount Doom "...as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-Dúr was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown."

Basically Mount Doom to at least Barad-Dúr was shook.

I have done a calc blog, dunno if it is correct

@Jasonsith @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Mr._Bambu @Psychomaster35

Would any of you be willing to help evaluate this please?

Preferably tell us here when you are done.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Think a 5 across that distance is a bit of a high-ball since the text does not specify. I think 3 or 4 would be better for the shaking at the edge of the area and then you can plug that into the earthquake distance formula to find the source.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out.

 

[Tyranno223]

I've begun collecting some of the justifications together in Imgur posts. Not finished yet, but would this format be okay?

- regarding the Nigh-Valar tier Maiar

- regarding the command that the Valar collectively have over the universe

- the transcendence of the Valar, and thus the Ainur in their origin + their diminishing after entering Ea

- Manwe was the greatest opponent to Melkor in the music. The Valar as a collective (minus Tulkas) are too much for Melkor to directly oppose

- The Aratar were mightier than even their fellow Valar, to the point the others don't compare.

https://imgur.com/a/2b859tc - Valar surpass Maiar

https://imgur.com/a/GPhBn35 - Ainu bodies as raiment, and instant travel as spirits

https://imgur.com/a/bD6Z3B5 - Vigilot goes fast

https://imgur.com/a/IP4tZJw - Tolkien’s wider universe

 

[Dinamic8000]

Think a 5 across that distance is a bit of a high-ball since the text does not specify. I think 3 or 4 would be better for the shaking at the edge of the area and then you can plug that into the earthquake distance formula to find the source.

Thanks! I have changed the calculation with your suggestion

I've begun collecting some of the justifications together in Imgur posts. Not finished yet, but would this format be okay?

Cool! I believe that with our actual reference system you just need to say from what chapter the quote comes from in order to be accepted, although regarding the first two cases i think you could also reproduce the whole phrase, since they are small

 

[Tyranno223]

Cool! I believe that with our actual reference system you just need to say from what chapter the quote comes from in order to be accepted, although regarding the first two cases i think you could also reproduce the whole phrase, since they are small

Thanks! Guess the above was unnecessary. Still, at least we have easy access to some of the references we need.

 

[Antvasima]

If you have reached an agreement, what you agreed about is probably fine to apply.

 

[Tyranno223]

Elf scaling part 1:

Here's what I've found on the scaling for the Elves in the Third and Second Ages. Galadriel's section is especially long as Tolkien kept revising his opinion on her.

Gil-galad:
Explicitly scales to Sauron at the time of the Last Alliance

"Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron." - Letter 131

"Against Aeglos the spear of Gil-galad none could stand; " - AKALLABÊTH: Silmarillion (No cause for contradiction, none of Sauron's army could singlehandedly fight Gil-gald, likely including the Nazgûl, who were mentioned in APPENDIX B's section on the aftermath of the Last Alliance, but definitely including werewolves, who in the First Age could fight High-Elves lords).

"But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down..." - AKALLABÊTH: Silmarillion (A more detailed version of the first)

Galadriel:
She has a lot more potential for variety. Galadriel doesn't fight much in Tolkien's Legendarium, so we have little in the way of direct scaling beyond description. That being said she is repeatedly described as the "greatest" of the Noldor besides Fëanor, but at other times she's described as the "greatest" of the Elves left in Middle-Earth.

She definitely scales above Elrond as a result and likely should scale above Glorfindel. However, Gandalf the White claim to be second only to Sauron in the Two Towers, with a later claim from himself stating he might be rivalled by the Witch-King in Return of the King. Moreover, Tolkien's Letters assert Gandalf the White's superiority over her. The issue with this series of statements is that Glorfindel's presence alone causes the Witch-King to flee.

My personal solution to this is Gandalf (W) >/= Witch-King = Glorfindel with Galadriel being weaker than Gandalf, but only just a bit above Glorfindel. It's very finicky and imperfect, but Tolkien's structure never works well with this sort of thing. Moreover, Glorfindel was only posited as being this strong in the last bits of Tolkien's writing, so you could just have him scale above Galadriel and have it as that.

"Galadriel, the greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle-earth..." - II: THE ISTARI: Unfinished Tales

""In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women.""

"Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years. "
IV: THE HISTORY OF GALADRIEL AND CELEBORN: Unfinished Tales + APPENDIX B: LOTR

"‘Dangerous!’ cried Gandalf. ‘And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord." - THE WHITE RIDER: LOTR

"‘Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,’ said Denethor... ‘It might be so,’ Gandalf answered..." - THE SIEGE OF GONDOR: LOTR

"Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power."

+

"In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance."
- Letter 246 (Only Gandalf was capable of truly matching Sauron, even in a scenario where all three had claimed their own individual One Ring. Elrond and Galadriel could not individually match Sauron in this regard, only Gandalf).

Glorfindel:
Dues and performs a mutual kill with a Balrog in his First key. In his second key, he is confirmed to be stronger than before, and is described as a peer of the Maiar. This doesn't do much tier wise, unless a description of the Maiar he is compared to exists. Notably he is outright unable to withstand the collective might of all 9 Nazgûl, although a seperate quote attributes this as mainly being due to the Witch-King. He does intimitate the Witch-King during the Fall of Angmar, but it's not certain if he's as powerful as he is in the Return of the King.

First Key
"Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss."
OF TUOR AND THE FALL OF GONDOLIN: Silmarillion

"Then sprang the Balrog in the torment of his pain and fear full at Glorfindel, who stabbed like a dart of a snake; but he found only a shoulder, and was grappled, and they swayed to a fall upon the crag-top. Then Glorfindel's left hand sought a dirk, and this he thrust up that it pierced the Balrog's belly nigh his own face (for that demon was double his stature); and it shrieked, and fell backwards from the rock, and falling clutched Glorfindel's yellow locks beneath his cap, and those twain fell into the abyss." - HISTORY OF MIDDLE-EARTH (One of the several versions of events written regarding the battle)

Second Key
"On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not withstand all the Nine at once." - Many Meetings: LOTR

"For even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain" - THE COUNCIL OF ELROND: LOTR

"‘But it is said that when all was lost suddenly the Witch-king himself appeared, black-robed and black-masked upon a black horse. Fear fell upon all who beheld him; but he singled out the Captain of Gondor for the fullness of his hatred, and with a terrible cry he rode straight upon him. Ea¨rnur would have withstood him; but his horse could not endure that onset, and it swerved and bore him far away before he could master it."

+

‘Then the Witch-king laughed, and none that heard it ever forgot the horror of that cry. But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-king turned to flight and passed into the shadows.
APPENDIX A (The top bit is there for context, as whilst the Angmar's army had been destroyed, the Witch-King himself had no reason to run and was seemingly a threat to the whole army. It was only when Glorfindel appeared that he ran).

"We could then reasonably suppose that Glorfindel (possibly as one of a small party,(1) more probably as a sole companion) landed with Gandalf - Olorin about Third Age 1000. This supposition would indeed explain the air of special power and sanctity that surrounds Glorfindel - note how the Witch-king flies from him"

We can thus understand why he seems so powerful a figure and almost 'angelic'. For he had returned to the primitive innocence of the First-born, and had then lived among those Elves who had never rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar (2) for ages: from the last years of the First Age, through the Second Age, to the end of the first millennium of the Third Age:"

"For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the com- panionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice."
LAST WRITINGS: HISTORY OF MIDDLE-EARTH (Some of Tolkien's last writings

Summary
Gil-Galad = High 7-A, likely Higher

Galadriel = either 7-A, likely Higher, or Likely 7-A, likely Higher (if downscaling from Witch-king and Glorfindel), or something else. Maybe she's comparable to Gandalf? She does have her own feat in destroying Dol Guldur

Glorfindel = Low 7-B, likely Higher (First key) and 7-A, likely Higher (scaling to the Witch-King)

 

[Hellbeast]

I feel the Witch King thing is explainable but the fact Sauron gave him an added demonic force for the battle of Minas Tirith

 

[Tyranno223]

I feel the Witch King thing is explainable but the fact Sauron gave him an added demonic force for the battle of Minas Tirith

Unlike the movie, nothing like that is mentioned in the book (unless I missed something).

He's pretty much singled out as being above all the other Nazgul, so he is exceptionally strong even among them (It's when all 9 are present with their Captain that the Wise cannot fight them, and when the Nazgul are swept away at Rivendell, only 1 of the Nazgul retains control of their horse, etc).

 

[Hellbeast]

Unlike the movie, nothing like that is mentioned in the book (unless I missed something).

It’s mentioned in one of the letters, can’t remember the number

He's pretty much singled out as being above all the other Nazgul, so he is exceptionally strong even among them (It's when all 9 are present with their Captain that the Wise cannot fight them, and when the Nazgul are swept away at Rivendell, only 1 of the Nazgul retains control of their horse, etc).

He is but again, I think he’s mentioned as growing stronger in the third volume

 

[Tyranno223]

It’s mentioned in one of the letters, can’t remember the number

He is but again, I think he’s mentioned as growing stronger in the third volume

Huh, I'll have to give them a look over tomorrow. Thanks for the notice.

 

[Jasonsith]

Well in less than two weeks there will be a Death Battle on Sauron (Lord of the Rings) vs Arthas/Ner'zhul (Warcraft). Which will cover some feats from Leave Outside The Rules LOTR.

Never the best source for calculation of feats or powerscaling but of some reference value.

And finally some materials to work on for reconstruction of Warcraft verse.

I can offer to translate some calculations into a VBW wiki blog.

 

[Hellbeast]

Let’s go
I’m kinda curious what they do

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to all of you for helping out with this. I am most likely fine with what you all reach an agreement about here in this case.

 

[Tyranno223]

Sorry about the late response, university took up my time.

Regarding Glorfindel

The Witch-King was indeed said to become stronger in ROTK, I was wrong about that.

"The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force." - Letter 210

So Glorfindel does not scale to that level. He is stronger than his old self, thus putting him above the likes of the Balrogs, and he is capable of facing multiple Nazgul, albeit not all 9 at once. I feel like Glorfindel should be up there, but unless I find anything, I suppose he's limited to Low 7-B.


Regarding Galadriel
She doesn't seem to personally have anything else that places her in the 7-A tier, but it can be assumed that Nenya puts her in a comparable level to Gandalf the White, the Witch-King (ROTK), Sauron (War of the Rings).

"Do not be afraid! But do not think that only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlo´rien maintained and defended against its Enemy. I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!"

Galadriel has the power to resist Sauron's mind, and immediately after that statement she

"She lifted up her white arms, and spread out her hands towards the East in a gesture of rejection and denial. So bright was it that the figure of the Elven-lady cast a dim shadow on the ground. Its rays glanced upon a ring about her finger; it glittered like polished gold overlaid with silver light, and a white stone in it twinkled as if the Even-star had come down to rest upon her hand... ‘Yes,’ she said, divining his thought, ‘it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye. Verily it is in the land of Lorien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper."

Galadriel evidently has the power to resist Sauron's intrusions, at least mentally, something not even Gandalf the White can do without great effort. This isn't the result of her own power though, but that of Nenya, which she shows to Frodo immediately after stating Sauron cannot enter her mind. Other writings emphasize Nenya's role in strengthening Galadriel and her realm.

- The Mirror of Galadriel: LOTR

"It was at that time that she received Nenya, the White Ring, from Celebrimbor, and by its power the realm of Lórinand was strengthened and made beautiful..." -Unfinished Tales: Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn

"But the Lord of Morgul, seeing no better counsel, determined still to seek northward, hoping maybe to come upon Gollum as well as to discover the Shire. That this would prove to be not far from the hated land of Lórien seemed to him not unlikely, if it was not indeed within the fences of Galadriel. But the power of the White Ring he would not defy, nor enter yet into Lórien." - Unfinished Tales: Of the Journey of the Black Riders

So, with Nenya, I'd say she pretty solidly lies in the 7-A range, being comparable to Gandalf the White and Sauron. Heck it's even outright stated that Sauron himself would have had to attack Lothlorien to gain victory, meaning even the amped Witch-King likely couldn't have entered.

"Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself." - Appendix B: LOTR

However
This does mean that Galadriel without the Ring is arguably less impressive than my previous conception. Statements of her as the greatest surviving Noldo in Middle-Earth now applies to her with Nenya, and the only similar statements put her as comparable to Feanor... which is questionable... to say the least.

Statements do compare her to her peers in the Noldorin Princes of the First Age, so she should at least be comparable to the Balrogs. I'm not too sure were to put her though.

I would argue that her statement as the "greatest" elf woman should disregard Luthien, as the latter was capable of causing even Morgoth and First Age Sauron to falter (with the latter falling asleep before her dance), especially since the Letters and other works make it clear that even Sauron during the War of the Rings surpassed her when she had Nenya.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. You seem to make sense to me.

 

[TheMerchant66]

Imma get on to this a bit more and this might be wank but felt like asking:

What do you guys think of Tolkien more or less considering Eru Ilúvatar as also being the God of our Reality? What even is the stance on what our reality is considered dimensional wise, I've heard we can possibly be a 16th dimensional creation. If so would the Ainur during the Ainulindalë scale from this?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we can only scale Eru from what has been established in Tolkien's official writings, not concepts that were established in physics first long afterwards.

 

[Tyranno223]

Imma get on to this a bit more and this might be wank but felt like asking:

What do you guys think of Tolkien more or less considering Eru Ilúvatar as also being the God of our Reality? What even is the stance on what our reality is considered dimensional wise, I've heard we can possibly be a 16th dimensional creation. If so would the Ainur during the Ainulindalë scale from this?

Tolkien does consider Eru to be God, omnipotent and infallible. That being said, that doesn't change his rating outside of putting him massively above every character in the verse. I believe there is some reference to possible other "worlds" that might refer to universes, and there is mention of links to certain philosophical schools of thought in Nature of Middle Earth.

Truth be told, I haven't gone through Eru much. Ultra's blog has a link to the text. It should be the chapter on metaphysics (and there is other materials that talk about Eru in ither chapters).

Suggested Media : Sauron

Books The Hobbit https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TIC5reEOmadyzPM82Jow8LTHFCAEP3AS/view?usp=sharing Pg 13 Pg 64 Pg 134 Lord of the Rings h...

ulltraguy.blogspot.com

 

[Antvasima]

@TheMerchant66 @Tyranno223

So what do you think that we should do here currently?

 

[Tyranno223]

@TheMerchant66 @Tyranno223

So what do you think that we should do here currently?

I don't have any current evaluation for Eru, minus massively upscaling him from everyone else in the verse (essentially just At Least Low 2-C, maybe with a likely higher or something).

That being said, there is additional writing on him that I haven't checked, so he might be higher. Besides that, I'm just waiting on further responses to my Elven evaluation. I suppose I also need to make a revision to add a possibly scaling to Smaug as well.

 

[Antvasima]

"At least Low 2-C, likely far higher" seems fine to me in the meantime. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Tyranno223]

"At least Low 2-C, likely far higher" seems fine to me in the meantime. Thank you for helping out.

Sounds good. Also, considering the Balrog feat's evaluation can go from Low 7-B up to 6-C, is the wording of "Low 7-B, likely higher" sufficient, or should it be "Low 7-B, likely far higher"?

 

[Antvasima]

Why not just write it as "At least Low 7-B, at most 6-C" instead?

 

[Tyranno223]

Why not just write it as "At least Low 7-B, at most 6-C" instead?

In a previous discussion, you wrote that a solid rating might be a bit iffy due to the Lammoth scream not necessarily being consistent.

"The cry of Morgoth in that hour was the greatest and most dreadful that was ever heard in the northern world; the mountains shook, and the earth trembled, and rocks were riven asunder...Deep in forgotten places that cry was heard. Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband..."

The scream reaches as far as Angband, but the calc's max value assumes that the properties of the scream (its damaging properties) remain consistent.

Personally I'm fine with restoring the "upto 6-C" value, so having either likely far higher or that would be fine for me.