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Lord of the Rings revisions

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Moonshadow137 said:
There's a calced feat on Ungoliant's profile (link here for simplicity), where Morgoth screams and causes some quakin'. Not sure which end was accepted by you guys (goes from Low 7-B to 6-C), but that could potentially scale to someone - Ungoliant definitely tanked it, and Balrogs harmed her... also I don't think it's much of a problem to scale it to Sauron and those of his might, for that was just a casual scream of literal pain, not close to any dedicated attack or something.

Also Fingolfin fought and hurt him, I guess we could assume he would have tanked some powerful shockwaves screaming during the fight.
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Ungoliant and the Balrogs are rather sticky, as they're a prime example of how power in LOTR isn't that concrete.

Ungoliant at that point overpowered a Morgoth who was still regarded as the mightiest being alive (albeit Tulkas is physically stronger, and Manwë is apparently a stronger spirit at this point) but the Balrogs could cause her pain. Truth be told, I've mostly been ignoring this interaction for later, because I'm not too sure on what to do for this.

Sauron, after discussion with Merchant, I think we're putting in the nigh-Valar tier for now (as chief among Morgoth's Maiar), but that is nice potential support for this. Alternatively I could see him being lower in the First Age (given it is specified that he grew stronger in the Second) which could potentially resolve the above, so we could discuss scaling him to the scream (he has a 7-A feat when missing much of his native might so it could be At Least 7-A possibly 6-C).

Fingolfin we haven't discussed yet, but at the moment I'm thinking of scaling him to Morgoth (who at this point is quite weakened, with us currently putting him in the Nigh-Valar tier), but only during his specific duel (his wrath was such that he appeared to be physically akin to Oromë, with no one daring to approach him out of fear).

What are your thoughts on what could be done? Some additional opinions are very welcome.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Sauron, after discussion with Merchant, I think we're putting in the nigh-Valar tier for now (as chief among Morgoth's Maiar), but that is nice potential support for this. Alternatively I could see him being lower in the First Age (given it is specified that he grew stronger in the Second) which could potentially resolve the above, so we could discuss scaling him to the scream (he has a 7-A feat when missing much of his native might so it could be At Least 7-A possibly 6-C).
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Sauron - even in the First Age, I mean - is aguably migthier than Ancalagon the Black in every possible way, so I really think he should be High 7-A at the very least. The 7-A feat when diminished supports that.

Now, regarding Morgoth's scream, I think it's safe to scale it to Sauron, though adding "possibly" or a "likely" would be fair if we're using the calc's high end (the low end would arguably scale, since Sauron and the likes have even better feats). The scalling is indirect, albeit rational - that scream wasn't even an attack tbh, just a casual scream, like when Tulkas "shook the earth beneath his feet" while chasing Morgoth, and I guess nobody really questions whether Sauron can compare to Tulkas taking a casual walk, right?
 
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Tyranno223 said:
Fingolfin we haven't discussed yet, but at the moment I'm thinking of scaling him to Morgoth (who at this point is quite weakened, with us currently putting him in the Nigh-Valar tier), but only during his specific duel (his wrath was such that he appeared to be physically akin to Oromë, with no one daring to approach him out of fear).
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I guess we could give Fingolfin a separate key based on the amp he got from his anger, though my personal interpretation of that scene is kinda different. I mean, it really looks much more like some Fear Inducement shenanigans than actual powerscalling. Remember Oromë is presented as "dreadful in anger", more so than Tulkas, who "laughs ever, in sport or in war".

On that note, I believe Sauron's scalling is a good starting point for the other major Maiar and the Elven Lords of the First Age. Many of them have directly battled - and even defeated, in their own ways - the Dark Lord in numerous occasions, or are compared to him in one way or another. This could help us tackle the Balrog problem too.
 
The Smaug calc, it doesn't seem to be accepted, and it's a bit weird since he says he got magnitude 7 from it visibly shaking the roots, but the quote doesn't mention that, just that they were shaken. The dwarves also just react to the sound of it from what I can tell, I think it'd be mentioned if it was shaking that badly.

I don't mind scaling to powerful Maiar, but mortals like Túrin and Bard killing them seems to be more about their durability being awful below their bellies where they don't have armor.

For Ungolianth, I always assumed it was just her being weak to fire, since she's all darkness and webs and stuff.
 
Moonshadow137 said:
Sauron - even in the First Age, I mean - is aguably migthier than Ancalagon the Black in every possible way, so I really think he should be High 7-A at the very least. The 7-A feat when diminished supports that.

Now, regarding Morgoth's scream, I think it's safe to scale it to Sauron, though adding "possibly" or a "likely" would be fair if we're using the calc's high end (the low end would arguably scale, since Sauron and the likes have even better feats). The scalling is indirect, albeit rational - that scream wasn't even an attack tbh, just a casual scream, like when Tulkas "shook the earth beneath his feet" while chasing Morgoth, and I guess nobody really questions whether Sauron can compare to Tulkas taking a casual walk, right?
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Does Ancalagon have a calc'd High 7-A feat?

Also, we currently have Sauron's First Age key at At Least 7-A, possibly (or likely) 3-A. That's kinda where the issue comes from, because Morgoth should scale above that, even when at his weakest (and when facing Ungoliant he should still be 3-A from the Silmarillion's narration).

The change to have First Age Sauron scale to Morgoth's shout should resolve the Fingolfin scaling to be less... astronomically above his peers (as we can lower Morgoth's "At Most" to that level), but Ungoliant is in an awkward spot, unless we assume Morgoth was drastically weakened after leaving Valinor (which was just before their "battle").

On a side note, I'm fine with scaling the Balrogs to the shout, as it did nothing to Ungoliant, but given they harmed Ungoliant, I'll need to check over the quotes to see if there isn't another resolution to the scaling between those them and the spider.
 
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On a side-note, Huan should scale to Sauron (albeit he was being overpowered prior to Luthien's aid), but Elendil and Gil-Galad will scale to a particularly weakened Sauron. The Letters mention he had yet to fully recover after Numenor (and we know he was weakened) so they'll probably get an "at most" scaling to the 6-C feat if we put First Age Sauron at the above tier instead (as he could still be stronger than his past self, given that he had the Ring).

Although regarding Elendil, I personally think we should only scale Narsil/Anduril to Sauron, but I haven't compiled an argument for this yet (this would affect Aragorn too).
 
InfiniteSped said:
The Smaug calc, it doesn't seem to be accepted, and it's a bit weird since he says he got magnitude 7 from it visibly shaking the roots, but the quote doesn't mention that, just that they were shaken. The dwarves also just react to the sound of it from what I can tell, I think it'd be mentioned if it was shaking that badly.

I don't mind scaling to powerful Maiar, but mortals like Túrin and Bard killing them seems to be more about their durability being awful below their bellies where they don't have armor.

For Ungolianth, I always assumed it was just her being weak to fire, since she's all darkness and webs and stuff.
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Mortal characters don't really have feats of tanking damage for the most part, so I'm personally in favour of putting them at "X tier with Y weapon". It's somewhat case by case however.

The Balrogs I believe do have an advantage against Ungoliant, so we could just scale them to Ungoliant and leave everyone else at their current planned tiers (if evidence supports it). Fingolfin (and Huan) would still be possibly exaggerated, but we can discuss this further.
 
Going back in the thread, and after rereading the short passage, it seems Ungoliant didn't flee out of being overpowered per say, but rather out of fear from the Balrogs destroying her webs and attacking her with "whips of flame". Not to mention she later fled for Melian, who while strong among the Maiar, should not exactly be a match for an Ungoliant who overpowered Morgoth (although I suppose she may have been weakened, but this is just a supporting statemet)

However, Morgoth's Ring describes her as being hurt, but we're not given much detail on this.
 
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Moonshadow137 said:
I guess we could give Fingolfin a separate key based on the amp he got from his anger, though my personal interpretation of that scene is kinda different. I mean, it really looks much more like some Fear Inducement shenanigans than actual powerscalling. Remember Oromë is presented as "dreadful in anger", more so than Tulkas, who "laughs ever, in sport or in war".

On that note, I believe Sauron's scalling is a good starting point for the other major Maiar and the Elven Lords of the First Age. Many of them have directly battled - and even defeated, in their own ways - the Dark Lord in numerous occasions, or are compared to him in one way or another. This could help us tackle the Balrog problem too.
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One more thing on Fingolfin, while the current scaling would end up having his theoretically second key be astronomically high compared to even Feanor, it's only "At Most", as Morgoth's strength is faded, but we're not 100% sure of the extent.
 
Hey guys, sorry for being super gone but I have read half way into the Silmarillion and I think there are some things I want to mention that might clear some things.

I've noticed that whenever Tulkas goes after Morgoth he always has back up like Oromë and Manwë, this is headcanon but it was mentioned in terms of raw magical power Morgoth way higher than Tulkas so Tulkas needs an Aratar to back him up whilst in sheer strength he can wrestle Morgoth.

Ungoliant base was always hiding from Oromë and even his Hunters, and while not said to be one of them we can infer they are probably Maiar similar to Tillion, not saying they are his equals but shouldn't be too far apart. Ungoliant post trees did web up Morgoth but the Balrogs as we all know chased her away and even Melian who does have some crazy hype + her Girdle is insanely OP was able to ward off Ungoliant, a bit fuzzy if she used the Girdle though I think she did which makes sense.

For some more Melian hype that's indirect it's said that because of her the Sindarin Elves from Beleriand were the strongest Elves on Middle earth and nearly as strong as the Elves from Aman whom bathed in the Light of the 2 trees, that can support her being Nigh Valar tier imo.

I'm ngl for some meh news I kinda feel whilst on Arda the Valar aren't all that strong, at least going by the Silmarillion which admittedly is an in universe creation myth, still need to look into HOME which I actually own now. The reason why I say it's meh is because when Morgoth destroyed the 2 lamps the Valar all had to focus on basically keeping the planet together which allowed Morgoth to get away, I'm unsure how to really feel about that atm.

The stars Varda threw in the sky also I feel can't really be that big, the stars were made from collecting the dew from the 2 trees and none of them have anything to really indicate that they're massively huge, in the early ages there were trees bigger than mountains but who knows, Yavanna also claimed her trees can be as big as mountains but Manwë said not to do that and Aulës mountains are enough, lol.


I guess you can headcanon that when she threw the stars they got massively huge but nothing to support that at all, but I'd reckon to throw that out there just cause if they went that far they'd have to be pretty big(?) But they could also just be very bright, that might be something calculable.


Niënnas tears and Yavannas healing couldn't heal the 2 trees but they made the plants that became the Sun and Moon, so that's another thing. But, these 2 can't be all that big either, the wording was a bit weird but it sounds like the Sun actually lands near the beaches of Aman, the country where the Valar live.


And for some minor stuff that I remember is Elves who bathed in the light of the two trees are clearly top dogs in the verse, followed by Elves from Beleriend who are a close 2nd. Dark Elves and First Age Men were equals in size and strength but dark elves are still faster and more agile, and Dwarves in sheer strength are the strongest at least when it comes to averages, guessing Elven Lords like Glorfindel are not binded by that.

I'll definitely update more just to let y'all know.
 
TheMerchant66 said:
Hey guys, sorry for being super gone but I have read half way into the Silmarillion and I think there are some things I want to mention that might clear some things.

I've noticed that whenever Tulkas goes after Morgoth he always has back up like Oromë and Manwë, this is headcanon but it was mentioned in terms of raw magical power Morgoth way higher than Tulkas so Tulkas needs an Aratar to back him up whilst in sheer strength he can wrestle Morgoth.

Ungoliant base was always hiding from Oromë and even his Hunters, and while not said to be one of them we can infer they are probably Maiar similar to Tillion, not saying they are his equals but shouldn't be too far apart. Ungoliant post trees did web up Morgoth but the Balrogs as we all know chased her away and even Melian who does have some crazy hype + her Girdle is insanely OP was able to ward off Ungoliant, a bit fuzzy if she used the Girdle though I think she did which makes sense.

For some more Melian hype that's indirect it's said that because of her the Sindarin Elves from Beleriand were the strongest Elves on Middle earth and nearly as strong as the Elves from Aman whom bathed in the Light of the 2 trees, that can support her being Nigh Valar tier imo.

I'm ngl for some meh news I kinda feel whilst on Arda the Valar aren't all that strong, at least going by the Silmarillion which admittedly is an in universe creation myth, still need to look into HOME which I actually own now. The reason why I say it's meh is because when Morgoth destroyed the 2 lamps the Valar all had to focus on basically keeping the planet together which allowed Morgoth to get away, I'm unsure how to really feel about that atm.

The stars Varda threw in the sky also I feel can't really be that big, the stars were made from collecting the dew from the 2 trees and none of them have anything to really indicate that they're massively huge, in the early ages there were trees bigger than mountains but who knows, Yavanna also claimed her trees can be as big as mountains but Manwë said not to do that and Aulës mountains are enough, lol.


I guess you can headcanon that when she threw the stars they got massively huge but nothing to support that at all, but I'd reckon to throw that out there just cause if they went that far they'd have to be pretty big(?) But they could also just be very bright, that might be something calculable.


Niënnas tears and Yavannas healing couldn't heal the 2 trees but they made the plants that became the Sun and Moon, so that's another thing. But, these 2 can't be all that big either, the wording was a bit weird but it sounds like the Sun actually lands near the beaches of Aman, the country where the Valar live.


And for some minor stuff that I remember is Elves who bathed in the light of the two trees are clearly top dogs in the verse, followed by Elves from Beleriend who are a close 2nd. Dark Elves and First Age Men were equals in size and strength but dark elves are still faster and more agile, and Dwarves in sheer strength are the strongest at least when it comes to averages, guessing Elven Lords like Glorfindel are not binded by that.

I'll definitely update more just to let y'all know.
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Nice to see you back.

Will add that the Valar in Arda are outright said to have had a great deal of control over the material universe from NOME and others, but the state of this physical universe depends on how the cosmology is treated. Their struggle to deal with the lamps is perhaps an anti-feat, but it's worth noting that their main goal is always to aid the "children" which would take precedence over hunting Melkor (who only barely escaped). It's probavly just an outlier, as Tulkas, Manwë or any of the Ainur should have been able to catch Melkor, since they could easily discard their physical form to move instantly.

Truth be told, I feel inclined to argue that the stars, etc aren't 1 to 1 prior to the Downfall of Numenor, but I'd need to overlook the cosmology more (which is a pain since Tolkien never quite settled on it).

Melian I suppose I'll put in the Nigh-Valar tier for the edit, but I'll put her as "possibly" 3-A rather than "likely" for now, given she has less concrete evidence than Ossë or Eonwë (same for First Age Sauron and Arien). On that note, what should we put Tilion at? He's undoubtedly strong, but be doesn't really scale to anything, he only has the statement of fighting "evil spirits" of some kind.

For the Elves, I have no complaints.
 
The Letters of Tolkien mention that the One Ring was made with much of "a great part of his own inherent power" and the Fellowship mentions much of his "former power" was in the Ring.

Olorin is said to be equal with Sauron in his origins, but only the description of "inherent" might suggests we might be discussing the Ring being made up of Sauron's original power. There is also the fact that the Istari are peers of Sauron, but whether this includes the One Ring is unknown, and it could just refer to them being fellow Maiar.

So scaling the Gandalf and Saruman's unbound forms (Radagast being outright said to be lesser to the two) outright to Ancalagon does not seem possible. That being said they could "possibly" scale, but we probably need more evidence. I suppose I'll just leave them at At least 7-A for now. Only the Nigh-Valar Maiar will scale.

That being said, if we scale the Balrogs to Morgoth's scream, the high-end of that feat surpasses everything that does not scale to the Valar, so a consensus on that is pretty important. We would also have proper scaling for the Balrog themselves and Gandalf. I'm personally in favour of it due to that.
 
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Thank you for helping out to everyone here. I would appreciate if you try to reach an agreement regarding what should be done here.
 
While discussion on Ungoliant is crucial, an agreement over scaling the Balrogs and above to Morgoth's scream is most immediately required (minus calcs) as we were in the middle of editing the pages for the Ainur (and others like the Elves by proxy, but they need their own focused discussion).
 
Tyranno223 said:
While discussion on Ungoliant is crucial, an agreement over scaling the Balrogs and above to Morgoth's scream is most immediately required (minus calcs) as we were in the middle of editing the pages for the Ainur (and others like the Elves by proxy, but they need their own focused discussion).
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Agreed, and I guess they should scale to the scream, yes, as despite everything they are still Maiar, and his most powerful servants after all. That feat was basically as casual as it gets and did nothing to Ungoliant, plus it's rather consistent with Ancalagon's High 7-A feat and the likes.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Melian I suppose I'll put in the Nigh-Valar tier for the edit, but I'll put her as "possibly" 3-A rather than "likely" for now, given she has less concrete evidence than Ossë or Eonwë (same for First Age Sauron and Arien). On that note, what should we put Tilion at? He's undoubtedly strong, but be doesn't really scale to anything, he only has the statement of fighting "evil spirits" of some kind.
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I'm sorry if the question's dull - this thread is over 600+ posts so I may have skimmed over something important that was already discussed -, but why are we considering scalling those Maiar to a possible 3-A key? What exactly do you mean with "Nigh-Valar"?

Don't all Maiar have their True Forms listed as High 3-A anyway? Adding another one seems redundant, and might break the scalling quite a bit. I certainly don't think Huan or Luthien or Finrod are near 3-A, for instance.

If anything, that quote of Sauron surpassing Morgoth is more proof of how much Morgoth's power diminished than it is of how much Sauron's grew, tbh.
 
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The greatest Maiar are nigh equal to the non-Aratar Valar, each Vala have a great degree of controlling all the matter in the Universe. But, it is a bit odd I'm unsure myself how to really make sense of some things.
 
But isn't that already accounted for in their True Form key?

High Universe level (The Maiar are essentially lesser Valar, having control over aspects of the universe, albeit to a lesser degree)
 
Putting their manifestations at 3-A would create a mess of things with the Elven Lords and Ladies, apart from the inconsistencies the scalling among the Maiar themselves already presents (different texts tell different things about who the "greatest Maiar" are, for instance)
 
Moonshadow137 said:
But isn't that already accounted for in their True Form key?

High Universe level (The Maiar are essentially lesser Valar, having control over aspects of the universe, albeit to a lesser degree)
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The seperation is more pre-Eä and post entering Eä with the keys. All the Ainur can access their "true forms" without effort in Eä by simply shedding their physical form, but the difference is that we are told that upon entering Eä, the Ainur became bound and weakened in a sense (being semi-bound to time for instance, at least until the breaking of the world).

The former has all the Ainur at Low 2-C for being transcendent to time/reality/the universe (Tolkien describes it in multiple ways) and being completely unattached to it.

The reason why they are likely/possibly 3-A in the other key is because the description of Maiar being akin to the Valar in might has no reason to only be true for the former. We even have cases like Ossë being considered as a possible weapon against Ulmo, Morgoth fearing Arien despite not being completely diminished, etc. The "likely/possibly" part comes from the fact that, while it is logical, it is not outright confirmed.

Of course if we later change the universe's cosmology the 3-A tier will change according, but that's for later, as we haven't even gotten past the Ainur, despite it being months.
 
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I will add that Sauron's rating be in the nigh-Valar tier is admittedly up for debate, and if he's lowered, it would save us from having potentially 3-A Elflords.

There isn't much concrete to put him at that level, beyond descriptions of him being chief among Morgoth's Maiar (who are generally weaker than their Valinorian counterparts if we consider that the Balrogs are mighty among them), and the possibility of him being above Eönwë, if we believe that the latter was overcome by Ancalagon (but that's up for debate, especially as the Eönwë is never metioned alongside Ancalagon, and we would also have the awkward issue of 3-A Eärendil).

All the other nigh-Valar tier Maiar don't really have anyone scaling to them. Plus Morgoth's weakest key would no longer have a reason to be "likely universal" meaning Fingolfin is no longer the god of all the Noldor.

Also the chief among the Maiar are pretty cut and dry, as pretty much every edition has Eönwë and Ilmarë at the top. Morgoth's Ring, the Silmarillion, the Unfinished Tales, etc.
 
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If we choose to remove Sauron from the tier he would simply be above the Istari, and the Balrogs (who again, we need a consensus on for their scaling to the Morgoth scream).
 
I hope that you can reach some conclusions regarding what should be applied here.
 
Sorry to bump, but as we were in the middle of edits, a consensus on the Balrogs potentially scaling to Morgoth's scream is really needed.

I'm personally in favour as it did nothing to Ungoliant, and served as a mere alarm to alert the Balrogs.

Tilion's placing in the scaling is also something that needs consensus (otherwise he'll just be unknown) but that and all the other matters can be resolved with further dicussion. The scaling thing kinda needs to be decided quick, otherwise the profiles will be left half done.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Sorry to bump, but as we were in the middle of edits, a consensus on the Balrogs potentially scaling to Morgoth's scream is really needed.
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So Balrogs should be something on the likes of

At least 7-B (scalling from Gandalf and Smaug), possibly up to 6-C (scalling from Morgoth's scream)
 
Tyranno223 said:
Tilion's placing in the scaling is also something that needs consensus (otherwise he'll just be unknown)
Click to expand...
I guess Tilion and most Maiar that don't have that notable feats or statements could safely scale to high-tier Elven Lords and therefore to the Balrogs.

Balrogs are - or were, in thar case - Maiar after all. IIRC, after Glorfindel dies fighting one he is deemed akin to the Maiar in power, or something like that, so it seems fine.
 
I checked, and he just sees some lights in the distance, Aragorn says it looks like lightning coming out of the hilltops. Nothing you could put a number on.
 
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