Lord of the Rings revisions

[Moonshadow137]

Although how should I word it for the Nigh-Valar tier? "High 7-A (from Ancalagon), possibly 6-C, likely 3-A" doesn't seem right.

I still have problems regarding this whole "Nigh-Valar" thing, but I suggest we focus on the Balrog issue first before going down that rabbit hole.

 

[InfiniteSped]

What is the Low 7-B feat?

 

[Tyranno223]

I still have problems regarding this whole "Nigh-Valar" thing, but I suggest we settle the Balrog issue down first before going down that rabbit hole.

If the Balrog thing is agrees on, it would apply to them.

 

[Tyranno223]

What is the Low 7-B feat?

The low end of the Morgoth scream's yield.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

7-B is the Balrog breaking the mountainside but that isn't really quantifiable ngl

He did cover the mountain in a storm but again we don't know how big it is so that's futile too

 

[Moonshadow137]

Well, at the very least we have Smaug's 7-C feat, but now I wonder how much beings like him, Thorondor and Glaurung scale to sheer size. Should be fun.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who are helping out here.

 

[InfiniteSped]

The Balrogs could just counter her with fire, hard to know. Although they did also kill Feanor, while Fingolfin could fight Morgoth 1v1 for a bit, so maybe all of them together are supposed to be comparable to Morgoth himself.

The Smaug calc, I already mentioned it's a bit sus, I don't think the assumptions there work with the quotes given.

 

[Moonshadow137]

The Smaug calc, I already mentioned it's a bit sus, I don't think the assumptions there work with the quotes given.

But wasn't it accepted already? The blog has no response but it's a transcription from that outside forum from a while ago.

 

[Tyranno223]

Well, at the very least we have Smaug's 7-C feat, but now I wonder how much beings like him, Thorondor and Glaurung scale to sheer size. Should be fun.

Thorondor is comparable to Ancalagon, given that he fought him alongside Eärendil, so he's High 7-A.

Merchant and I seem to agree on Glaurung being above the Balrogs, but this can be discussed.

 

[Moonshadow137]

He did cover the mountain in a storm but again we don't know how big it is so that's futile too

We do have a letter from Tolkien where he compares Celebdil (the mountain where they fought) to a mountain in Switzerland iirc

 

[InfiniteSped]

But wasn't it accepted already? The blog has no response but it's a transcription from that outside forum from a while ago.

That one blog wasn't, maybe it was accepted before, but it really doesn't matter much since calc members usually just check the math rather than checking if the context and assumptions are correct. I couldn't find justification to assume magnitude 7-8, at least.

 

[Tyranno223]

Thank you to everybody who are helping out here.

While the tier is being discussed, just for future reference, how would you word

"High 7-A, possibly 6-C, likely 3-A"

Properly?

 

[Moonshadow137]

So the feats we have up until now

Morgoth's scream - Low 7-B to 6-C, Small City level to Island level, calc here.

Ancalagon's Death - High 7-A, Large Mountain level, calc here.

Sauron makes a storm - 7-A, Mountain level, calc here. Evaluation required.

Sauron's signal - 7-A, Mountain level, calc here.

Smaug's shenanigans (calc here)

1. Mountain shaking roar - 7-C, Town level.
2. Tail swing - High 8-C, Large Building level.
3. Smaug's death - barely Low 7-C, Small Town level.

 

[Tyranno223]

So the feats we have up until now

Morgoth's scream - Low 7-B to 6-C, Small City level to Island level, calc here.

Ancalagon's Death - High 7-A, Large Mountain level, calc here.

Sauron makes a storm - 7-A, Mountain level, calc here. Evaluation required.

Sauron's signal - 7-A, Mountain level, calc here.

Smaug's shenanigans (calc here)

1. Mountain shaking roar - 7-C, Town level.
2. Tail swing - High 8-C, Large Building level.
3. Smaug's death - barely Low 7-C, Small Town level.

Well it's mostly a matter of application from here on. Shall we discuss the Nigh-Valar issue then? What were your issues with it? Beyond the prior mentioned ones.

 

[Moonshadow137]

The reason why they are likely/possibly 3-A in the other key is because the description of Maiar being akin to the Valar in might has no reason to only be true for the former. We even have cases like Ossë being considered as a possible weapon against Ulmo, Morgoth fearing Arien despite not being completely diminished, etc. The "likely/possibly" part comes from the fact that, while it is logical, it is not outright confirmed.

My issue is that the Legendarium, as a mainly phylosophical work by nature, has a lot of stuff that's subjective and open for interpretation.

For instance, "being a weapon against Ulmo" might not necessarily mean Ossë could actually hurt or fight him in an actually meaningful way, but rather his demeanor could be a threat to Ulmo's domain, to his creations and the likes. Mostly every corrupted Maia who fell to Morgoth's side could easily be considered as a "weapon" against the Valar in that context.

On a similar note, Morgoth fearing someone should not to be immediately considered as a show of that someone's might. He was shown to be quite cowardly at times, fearing his confrontation with Fingolfin even though he clearly had the upper hand during the fight, and killed the elf lord. He was also explicitly said to fear the elves of Gondolin and the races of Men, and they certainly are no match to the Valar and wouldn't be anywhere near Universe level.

Besides, the Dark Lord fearing Arien, who albeit a Maia, was the Guardian of the Sun, is not exactly unprecedented. He fears the light and the warmth she brings, and then "with shadows he hid himself and his servants from Arien, the glance of whose eyes they could not long endure". Which makes sense, for Arien's eyes were said to be too bright for even the Eldar to look upon.

Essentially what I'm saying is that maybe these statements don't actually translate to raw AP/tier scalling, and rather have a more thematic/subjective meaning behind them.

 

[Moonshadow137]

The best example is how Morgoth fears and constantly bails away from Tulkas. I won't lie, this causes an impression, and many people think Tulkas is the mightiest of the Valar (I believe I saw someone poiting this out in this very thread), and that's explicitly not the case, with the Aratar being listed as far more powerful by the sheer nature or their being.

 

[Tyranno223]

My issue is that the Legendarium, as a mainly phylosophical work by nature, has a lot of stuff that's subjective and open for interpretation.

For instance, "being a weapon against Ulmo" might not necessarily mean Ossë could actually hurt or fight him in an actually meaningful way, but rather his demeanor could be a threat to Ulmo's domain, to his creations and the likes. Mostly every corrupted Maia who fell to Morgoth's side could easily be considered as a "weapon" against the Valar in that context.

On a similar note, Morgoth fearing someone should not to be immediately considered as a show of that someone's might. He was shown to be quite cowardly at times, fearing his confrontation with Fingolfin even though he clearly had the upper hand during the fight, and killed the elf lord. He was also explicitly said to fear the elves of Gondolin and the races of Men, and they certainly are no match to the Valar and wouldn't be anywhere near Universe level.

Besides, the Dark Lord fearing Arien, who albeit a Maia, was the Guardian of the Sun, is not exactly unprecedented. He fears the light and the warmth she brings, and then "with shadows he hid himself and his servants from Arien, the glance of whose eyes they could not long endure". Which makes sense, for Arien's eyes were said to be too bright for even the Eldar to look upon.

Essentially what I'm saying is that maybe these statements don't actually translate to raw AP/tier scalling, and rather have a more thematic/subjective meaning behind them.

True, the Legendarium is very subjective, but in this case I argue that there's enough there for a likely, or alternatively possibly (if there's too much doubt) rating.

We know there are Maiar comparable to the Valar in might who joined them in the descent to Eä. There is no reason to believe they are weakened more than the Valar by this extent.

Moreover, we have the examples above, which while potentially purely subjective on their own, work in tandem to suggest comparability. There is moreover, no contradictions that subvert a possibly or likely rating (minus Sauron, who we can remove from the list).

 

[Tyranno223]

We can compromise and put them at a possibly rating rather than likely, if that would work.

There is no evidence that contradicts their position, but I admit they do not have the showings beyond implication and statement.

 

[Moonshadow137]

While leaving Sauron out might work for keeping the scalling consistent, it's objectively wrong, as he is not only said multiple times to be among the mightiest of the Maiar (explicitly saying he was of "far higher order" than that of the Istari, for instance), but also is arguably the Maia with the most feats and clearest influence and power in the whole franchise.

Also, since Ëonwë is the Chief among the Maiar, and theoretically the most powerful of them, we could run into problems if we scale him up to that level, since he was physically participating in the War of the Wrath, leading the "Host of Valinor", an army of elves and likely maiar that made war upon Morgoth and destroyed his armies. He fought there, and didn't immediately one-shot every other creature in the fight. In fact, when Ancalagon and the dragons came forth, even Ëonwë and his army were driven back:

"But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire."

Removing Ëonwë from the list is pretty much not an option, so yeah, even without Sauron, the scalling could suffer from this 3-A Maiar thing.

 

[Moonshadow137]

We can compromise and put them at a possibly rating rather than likely, if that would work.

There is no evidence that contradicts their position, but I admit they do not have the showings beyond implication and statement.

I mean, I'm perfectly fine with a clarification that those Maiar are superior to the others, but I really don't see enough evidence for such a massive leap from 6-C to 3-A. So, my proposal:

"At least High 7-A (from being superior to Ancalagon and either comparable to Sauron or being Sauron himself), likely up to 6-C (from scalling to Morgoth's casual feat), possibly far higher (the nigh-valar stuff)"

This should suffice, and that way we could point out the hierarchy among the Maiar without committing to such a huge unjustified tier. And more importantly, we could put Sauron back in the list 'cause come on, it's f*cking Sauron

 

[Tyranno223]

I mean, I'm perfectly fine with a clarification that those Maiar are superior to the others, but I really don't see enough evidence for such a massive leap from 6-C to 3-A. So, my proposal:

"At least High 7-A (from being superior to Ancalagon and either comparable to Sauron or being Sauron himself), likely up to 6-C (from scalling to Morgoth's casual feat), possibly far higher (the nigh-valar stuff)"

This should suffice, and that way we could point out the hierarchy among the Maiar without committing to such a huge unjustified tier. And more importantly, we could put Sauron back in the list 'cause come on, it's f*cking Sauron

Sauron belonging on the list is something I've found contentious from the beginning. He doesn't have a statement of being chief among the Maiar other than those of Morgoth, and he has multiple antifeats for being in such a high position.

Moreover, Eönwë might have been pushed back by Ancalagon, but this is never made clear (you can push back a host, without pushing all members back, and Eönwë cannot normally fly) and a lesser Maia like Thorondor could contest Ancalagon (not to mention Eönwë is said to easily overpower Morgoth in this battle, who should still be mightier than Ancalagon).

The tier difference is massive, but that's hardly reason to be skeptical. The Valar and Maiar are the same race, and yet the former are undoubtedly unbelievably more powerful than most of the latter.

 

[Tyranno223]

To be frank

Sauron being chief among the Maiar is supported only by these things.

He's the mightiest Fallen Maia, yet even Maiar like the Balrog are considered mighty among the Fallen Maiar, despite being outclassed by many of their Valinorian counterparts.

He might scale to Eönwë, but this is not something which is confirmed, and relies on a contradictory extrapolation.

He is considered a greater order Maia to the Istari, but this does not mean he is among the highest of the rank.

 

[Moonshadow137]

Moreover, Eönwë might have been pushed back by Ancalagon, but this is never made clear (you can push back a host, without pushing all members back, and Eönwë cannot normally fly) and a lesser Maia like Thorondor could contest Amcalagon.

Sorry but this is certainly not true. His profile lists "Flight" as literally his second ability, and it better be, as he was a Maia of Manwë, the Vala of Winds, so flying is most definetely within his sphere.

In any case, the quote mentions the army was "driven back", not actually pushed, as in physically pushed. It seems they were overwhelmed by the ferocity of the attack, and had to retreat and wait for Thorondor's and Eärendil's backup.

 

[Tyranno223]

Sorry but this is certainly not true. His profile lists "Flight" as literally his second ability, and it better be, as he was a Maia of Manwë, the Vala of Winds, so flying is most definetely within his sphere.

In any case, the quote mentions the army was "driven back", not actually pushed, as in physically pushed. It seems they were overwhelmed by the ferocity of the attack, and had to retreat and wait for Thorondor's and Eärendil's backup.

The profile abilities need a lot of revision, flight is one of the things that should be removed, or moved to a conditional thing (transformation or "spirit form". The entire purpose of this thread is the complete overhaul of the profiles (or at least that's what it's become). This is something that has been pointed out on previous pages.

The Host of Valinor being pushed back can mean that Eönwë was overwhelmed, but he is not specifically mentioned, he cannot fly to combat flying dragons, and he later overcame Morgoth, who should still be superior to Ancalagon (by virtue of how Angband functions as a... "civilisation")

Not to mention Sauron is above Ancalagon, whilst being considered lesser to Eönwë (who the Valar considered sending against Morgoth, but not Sauron).

 

[Tyranno223]

If it helps, I've already discussed my reasoning on prior pages, and even had a similar debate with Merchant.

 

[Moonshadow137]

The Host of Valinor being pushed back can mean that Eönwë was overwhelmed, but he is not specifically mentioned, he cannot fly to combat flying dragons, and he later overcame Morgoth, who should still be superior to Ancalagon (by virtue of how Angband functions as a... "civilisation")

Not to mention Sauron is above Ancalagon, whilst being considered lesser to Eönwë (who the Valar considered sending against Morgoth, but not Sauron).

Yes, you're correct. In fact, that's precisely what I mean, there's an inconsistency here, whereas if Ëonwë is so mighty and superior to Ancalagon in every way, he would not have been driven back from the ensuing barrage that was the dragon fleet. That's exactly my point, Ëonwë would not have suffered this limitations if he was around 3-A in tier and could simply smite all of the dragons at once.

No matter how many dragons there were, no reasonable amount of High 7-A/6-C creatures would be able to drive back a 3-A by sheer force as the text seems to imply.

It also kinda defeats the very purpose of Ëonwë being there and not some of the Valar. The Valar stopped fighting personally against Morgoth specially because the aftermath of their skirmishes was too massive, and scarred Arda forever. Even then, the War of the Wrath destroyed Beleriand, imagine the level of destruction that would have ensued should Ëonwë be a Universe level beast fighting in there.

 

[Moonshadow137]

While I'm fine with listing these Maiar as exceptionally powerful, I don't think I'm going to agree with a 3-A key for them. There's simply no evidence to back such a leap.

Since it seems we can't come to an agreement about this, I guess we would need more input on the subject.

 

[Tyranno223]

While I'm fine with listing these Maiar as exceptionally powerful, I don't think I'm going to agree with a 3-A key for them. There's simply no evidence to back such a leap.

Since it seems we can't come to an agreement about this, I guess we would need more input on the subject.

It's not an outright 3-A key, but I agree that more input would be good.

 

[Tyranno223]

Yes, you're correct. In fact, that's precisely what I mean, there's an inconsistency here, whereas if Ëonwë is so mighty and superior to Ancalagon in every way, he would not have been driven back from the ensuing barrage that was the dragon fleet. That's exactly my point, Ëonwë would not have suffered this limitations if he was around 3-A in tier and could simply smite all of the dragons at once.

No matter how many dragons there were, no reasonable amount of High 7-A/6-C creatures would be able to drive back a 3-A by sheer force as the text seems to imply.

It also kinda defeats the very purpose of Ëonwë being there and not some of the Valar. The Valar stopped fighting personally against Morgoth specially because the aftermath of their skirmishes was too massive, and scarred Arda forever. Even then, the War of the Wrath destroyed Beleriand, imagine the level of destruction that would have ensued should Ëonwë be a Universe level beast fighting in there.

Tbf, by all accounts Eönwë had no difficulty stomping Morgoth, so he might as well have done the Valar's job. And the level of destruction is not an antifeat. We have characters regularly causing less damage than their tiers suggest (Goku, Metatron from SMT, Gwyn, even the Valar).

And again, Eönwë was never said to be driven back, the host does not mean every individual, and he is not even mentioned as part of the dragon battle.

 

[Antvasima]

While the tier is being discussed, just for future reference, how would you word

"High 7-A, possibly 6-C, likely 3-A"

Properly?

Perhaps as "At least High 7-A to 6-C, likely/possibly 3-A"?

 

[Moonshadow137]

And again, Eönwë was never said to be driven back, the host does not mean every individual, and he is not even mentioned as part of the dragon battle.

The host means the army, and Eonwe was leading the army. The text tries to be as clear as possible when mentioning the "Host of the Valar", which is attributed to Eonwe and a bunch of elves he gathered. It seems very very odd to assume the Host of the Valar does not mean the Host of the Valar in this context, but rather some individuals, specially when nothing in the text gives us margin to exclude Eonwe from the list.

by all accounts Eönwë had no difficulty stomping Morgoth

If I'm being completely honest, the Silmarillion does not imply it was Eonwe personally who defeat Morgoth for good, and since the text explicitly says the Dark Lord did not put up a last fight, scalling Eonwe to him would be unfair.

"He fled into the deepest of his mines, and sued for peace and pardon; but his feet were hewn from under him, and he was hurled upon his face. Then he was bound with the chain Angainor which he had worn aforetime, and his iron crown they beat into a collar for his neck, and his head was bowed upon his knees."

And the level of destruction is not an antifeat.

I didn't mean it as an antifeat. What I meant is that the Valar did not want Arda to be as damaged as it usually were when the Valar and Morgoth skirmished in person, so they would naturally send someone with lesser destructive capacity - that is one of the main reasons why they refrained from directly interfering, after all - than them, and even then the war ended up destroying Beleriand.

 

[Tyranno223]

The host means the army, and Eonwe was leading the army. The text tries to be as clear as possible when mentioning the "Host of the Valar", which is attributed to Eonwe and a bunch of elves he gathered. It seems very very odd to assume the Host of the Valar does not mean the Host of the Valar, but rather some individuals, specially when nothing in the text gives us margin to exclude Eonwe from the list.


If I'm being completely honest, the Silmarillion does not imply it was Eonwe personally who defeat Morgoth for good, and since the text explicitly says the Dark Lord did not put up a last fight, scalling Eonwe to him would be unfair.

"He fled into the deepest of his mines, and sued for peace and pardon; but his feet were hewn from under him, and he was hurled upon his face. Then he was bound with the chain Angainor which he had worn aforetime, and his iron crown they beat into a collar for his neck, and his head was bowed upon his knees."


I didn't mean it as an antifeat. What I meant is that the Valar did not want Arda to be as damaged as it usually were when the Valar and Morgoth skirmished in person, so they would naturally send someone with lesser destructive capacity - that is one of the main reasons why they refrained from directly interfering, after all - than them, and even then the war ended up destroying Beleriand.

He may be leader, but the Host is made of Vanyar and Noldor Elves, who have repeatedly been shown to be overcome by dragons before. Eönwë not being directly mentioned means he has reason to be excused from the push back, especially considering he defeats Morgoth and is superior to Sauron.

The Silmarillion is not the text which implies Eönwë overthrew Morgoth, but rather HOME and The Unfinished Tales (in HOME specifically, Christopher mentions he removed a line referring to this in the Silmarillion, but that he felt that was a mistake, and a reference to Eönwë overthrowing Morgoth is still in the UT).

That was the collective might of the Valar, one Vala, or near that tier being, would not cause the same damage (and even then, Beleriand sunk).

And again, there are no antifeats to suggest they are not possibly akin to the Vala in might (Ossë and Arien for instance, are also evidence).

 

[Antvasima]

While I'm fine with listing these Maiar as exceptionally powerful, I don't think I'm going to agree with a 3-A key for them. There's simply no evidence to back such a leap.

Since it seems we can't come to an agreement about this, I guess we would need more input on the subject.

Well, I am not knowledgeable enough to do so. There are just you two, @TheMerchant66 and @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan here to try to reach an agreement.

It does seem sensible to change the "possibly 3-A" statistics for the Maiar to "possibly far higher" instead though.

 

[Tyranno223]

The only reason I'm not supporting a "likely far higher" rating, is because there isn't really any reason to contradict the rating, beyond theme.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Noted.

 

[Moonshadow137]

He may be leader, but the Host is made of Vanyar and Noldor Elves, who have repeatedly been shown to be overcome by dragons before. Eönwë not being directly mentioned means he has reason to be excused from the push back, especially considering he defeats Morgoth and is superior to Sauron.

"But at the last the might of Valinor came up out of the West, and the challenge of the trumpets of Eonwe filled the sky; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their feet."

As the banner-bearer and the herald of the army, I find it very awkward to believe that he wouldn't be leading the army into the fray, and frankly, if Tolkien wanted to exclude Eonwe from the affected party, he would have written him out, not the other way around.

The Silmarillion is the text which implies Eönwë overthrew Morgoth, but rather HOME and The Unfinished Tales (in HOME specifically, Christopher mentions he removed a line referring to this in the Silmarillion, but that he felt that was a mistake, and a reference to Eönwë overthrowing Morgoth is still in the UT).

HOME is most certainly not necessarily canon, and UT has questionable canonicity too, but even with these sources considered, that still does not address the fact that Morgoth did not put up a fight against Eonwe, so scalling him from this "feat" is unfair.

And again, there are no antifeats to suggest they are not possibly akin to the Vala in might (Ossë and Arien for instance, are also evidence).

You have already said that, and I have already pointed out how Ossë and Arien should not be taken at face value, being much more subjective/thematical in nature than purely hierachical. I don't want the debate to end up turning into an endless cycle, but I also don't think these interactions should translate into raw power.

I really believe a "possibly far higher" tier would be much more sensible in our current situation, comitting to 3-A seems off.

 

[Tyranno223]

"But at the last the might of Valinor came up out of the West, and the challenge of the trumpets of Eonwe filled the sky; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their feet."

As the banner-bearer and the herald of the army, I find it very awkward to believe that he wouldn't be leading the army into the fray, and frankly, if Tolkien wanted to exclude Eonwe from the affected party, he would have written him out, not the other way around.


HOME is most certainly not necessarily canon, and UT has questionable canonicity too, but even with these sources considered, that still does not address the fact that Morgoth did not put up a fight against Eonwe, so scalling him from this "feat" is unfair.


You have already said that, and I have already pointed out how Ossë and Arien should not be taken at face value, being much more subjective/thematical in nature than purely hierachical. I don't want the debate to end up turning into an endless cycle, but I also don't think these interactions should translate into raw power.

I really believe a "possibly far higher" tier would be much more sensible in our current situation, comitting to 3-A seems off.

We are going in circles in regards to the army part, so I'll just divert to the point regarding Morgoth.

HOME is not necessarily canon in all things, but Christopher's account explicitly points out that he likely made a mistake removing it from the Silmarillion, and the Unfinished Tales mentions the fact again. The Unfinished Tales are subjective, but so is the Silmarillion, and in this case, there is no reason to doubt the UT outside pure skepticism.

Ossë and Arien matter as they are supporting feats, and Arien especially matters as Morgoth admitted he could not confront her, despite not being at his lowest point yet (this was not remarkably long after his flight from Valinor).

To be frank, a "likely far higer" rating also makes little more sense than a likely/possibly 3-A, as without scaling them to the Valar, there is no reason for them to have that rating.

 

[Tyranno223]

Moreover, if we have no 3-A we then contradict an outright statement in the Silmarillion.

 

[Moonshadow137]

Moreover, if we have no 3-A we then contradict an outright statement in the Silmarillion.

Would you be so kind as to provide it? I can't quite recall what you are referring to. If you could provide that statement that mentions the Maiar as akin to the Valar it would be helpful too, we could probably try and get a hold of what Tolkien was trying to say there.