Lord of the Rings revisions

[Tyranno223]

Would you be so kind as to provide it? I can't quite recall what you are referring to. If you could provide that statement that mentions the Maiar as akin to the Valar it would be helpful too, we could probably try and get a hold of what Tolkien was trying to say there.

I have a shortened version of the quote on page 5. Page 4 also has some of my views on wording. I'll get the full quote up later.

 

[Moonshadow137]

Ossë and Arien matter as they are supporting feats, and Arien especially matters as Morgoth admitted he could not confront her, despite not being at his lowest point yet (this was not remarkably long after his flight from Valinor).

"And Arien Morgoth feared with a great fear, but dared not come nigh her, having indeed no longer the power; for as he grew in malice, and sent forth from himself the evil that he conceived in lies and creatures of wickedness, his might passed into them and was dispersed, and he himself became ever more bound to the earth, unwilling to issue from his dark strongholds."

I don't know about you guys, but to me this really seems much more deep than a plain powerscalling from these two, specially when the text mentions Morgoth was diminished and was "bound" to his dark domains and "unwilling" to leave them.

We must also acknowledge the power the light of Telperion and Laurelin had, and the power that would naturally be infused within their fruits. The Silmarils, which had but a fraction of that power and light, could seriously injure Morgoth to the point the burning never healed, and "nor was he ever free from the pain of the burning, and the anger of the pain."

I guess it's not that he feared the might of Arien's power, but rather of her nature as the Guardian of the Sun, which originated from the Valar, of course.

 

[Tyranno223]

"And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves..."

Greatness and the Valar generally being tied to their majesty and might.

 

[Tyranno223]

"And Arien Morgoth feared with a great fear, but dared not come nigh her, having indeed no longer the power; for as he grew in malice, and sent forth from himself the evil that he conceived in lies and creatures of wickedness, his might passed into them and was dispersed, and he himself became ever more bound to the earth, unwilling to issue from his dark strongholds."

I don't know about you guys, but to me this really seems much more deep than a plain powerscalling from these two, specially when the text mentions Morgoth was diminished and was "bound" to his dark domains and "unwilling" to leave them.

We must also acknowledge the power the light of Telperion and Laurelin had, and the power that would naturally be infused within their fruits. The Silmarils, which had but a fraction of that power and light, could seriously injure Morgoth to the point the burning never healed, and "nor was he ever free from the pain of the burning, and the anger of the pain."

I guess it's not that he feared the might of Arien's power, but rather of her nature as the Guardian of the Sun, which originated from the Valar, of course.

"For he no longer had the power" makes it clear power was a clear factor. While he is diminished, he was still more powerful than when he faced Fingolfin, and he only became bound after using his power in response to Arien.

His vulnerability to light would be an added factor.

 

[Moonshadow137]

"And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves..."

This seems to support a higher tier for certain Maiar, yes, yet unquantifiably so.

We could therefore use the statements of greatness to define which Maiar should be in the list - like Airen, Osse, Eonwe, Ilmare, etc - but not necessarily to but them ate 3-A.

I don't know if it's only me, but "likely/possibly far higher" seems a reasonable interpretation of "some well nigh as great as themselves".

 

[InfiniteSped]

What exactly the 3-A feat?

 

[Tyranno223]

What exactly the 3-A feat?

By being nigh akin to the Valar, they warrent a 3-A rating. There is a quote about the Valar's potency on this thread that has been posted before.

 

[Tyranno223]

This seems to support a higher tier for certain Maiar, yes, yet unquantifiably so.

We could therefore use the statements of greatness to define which Maiar should be in the list - like Airen, Osse, Eonwe, Ilmare, etc - but not necessarily to but them ate 3-A.

I don't know if it's only me, but "likely/possibly far higher" seems a reasonable interpretation of "some well nigh as great as themselves".

If they are akin to the Valar, they must be comparable. A likely higher rating is not supported, as if they are not treated as akin to the Valar who are 3-A, there is no support for being higher.

 

[Moonshadow137]

"For he no longer had the power" makes it clear power was a clear factor. While he is diminished, he was still more powerful than when he faced Fingolfin, and he only became bound after using his power in response to Arien.

The very reason why he no longer had the power is explained in the following sentence, as "he himself became ever more bound to the earth, unwilling to issue from his dark strongholds" and all. Besides, I never said it wasn't a "clear factor", just that it wasn't as determinant as you make it sound and had some nuance to it.

Also, this quote is placed after he is attacked by Ungoliant and burned by the Silmarils and has the Crown on his head, which "he never took from his head, though its weight became a deadly weariness". I'm not that sure whether or not he was more powerful than when he faced off Fingolfin, though if he was, it was not by that much.

 

[Moonshadow137]

If they are akin to the Valar, they must be comparable. A likely higher rating is not supported, as if they are not treated as akin to the Valar who are 3-A, there is no support for being higher.

Being "akin to" or "nigh well as great as" someone who is 3-A does not necessarily mean they are also 3-A, they could simply be "far higher" than those who are not "akin to" or "nigh well as great as" the Valar.

These expressions are not set in stone and are vague/subjective by nature.

 

[Tyranno223]

Being "akin" or "nigh well as great" to someone who is 3-A does not necessarily mean they are also 3-A, they could simply be "far higher" than those who are not "akin" or "nigh well as great".

These expressions are not set in stone and are vague/subjective by nature.

Nigh as great means nearly as great. That means they are similar, and thus comparable. It's not vague at all.

 

[Tyranno223]

The very reason why he no longer had the power is explained in the following sentence, as "he himself became ever more bound to the earth, unwilling to issue from his dark strongholds" and all. Besides, I never said it wasn't a "clear factor", just that it wasn't as determinant as you make it sound and had some nuance to it.

Also, this quote is placed after he is attacked by Ungoliant and burned by the Silmarils and has the Crown on his head, which "he never took from his head, though its weight became a deadly weariness". I'm not that sure whether or not he was more powerful than when he faced off Fingolfin, though if he was, it was not by that much.

Fair enough, although I will add that by pointing out power as a siginificant factor, Arien must be above Ancalagon, and as Eönwë is described as chief among the Maiar, unlike Arien, he must be her superior in that regard.

 

[Moonshadow137]

Nigh as great means nearly as great. That means they are similar, and thus comparable. It's not vague at all.

The quote is "well nigh as great". Tu put in a sentence:

"A task that is well-nigh impossible." The meaning would be something on the likes of "almost", which is by itself a rather vague adverb. A well nigh impossible might mean just a very difficult task, and since it's in a poetic piece of fiction, wording is a bit more nuanced. This should most certainly be noted.

 

[Moonshadow137]

In any case, it's pointless to keep debating over semantics. I don't think this is enough to put them at 3-A, even with a "possibly", specially since it's supposed to be used sparingly.

The very point of "higher" in this wiki is to express some uncertainty as to what tier someone would fall into. If the Maiar were, for instance, Multi-Galaxy level+ (or 3-B), would you consider them almost 3-A? It's complicated and nuanced. Here:

"Furthermore, higher may also be used to denote a case where the character is possibly or likely a higher tier, but to what degree is not specified. This is specifically referring to cases such as “At least 4-B, likely higher” or “At least Solar System level, likely higher”. From the Attack Potency page.

That should be it, I guess there isn't much left to say.

 

[Tyranno223]

In any case, it's pointless to keep debating over semantics. I don't think this is enough to put them at 3-A, even with a "possibly", specially since it's supposed to be used sparingly.

The very point of "higher" in this wiki is to express some uncertainty as to what tier someone would fall into. If the Maiar were, for instance, Multi-Galaxy level+ (or 3-B), would you consider them almost 3-A? It's complicated and nuanced. Here:

"Furthermore, higher may also be used to denote a case where the character is possibly or likely a higher tier, but to what degree is not specified. This is specifically referring to cases such as “At least 4-B, likely higher” or “At least Solar System level, likely higher”. From the Attack Potency page.

That should be it, I guess there isn't much left to say.

But the thing is they either are 3-A or they are not. The Valar are 3-A, certain Maiar are comparable to them. Putting them at Possibly Far Higher is just a poor solution, as there is nothing to support it beyond comparability to the Valar, which would earn them 3-A.

 

[Tyranno223]

The quote is "well nigh as great". Tu put in a sentence:

"A task that is well-nigh impossible." The meaning would be something on the likes of "almost", which is by itself a rather vague adverb. A well nigh impossible might mean just a very difficult task, and since it's in a poetic piece of fiction, wording is a bit more nuanced. This should most certainly be noted.

You're making an issue out of nothing, nigh as great is explicitly almost as great. Your argument here is just a confuscation of grammar and intent.

 

[Moonshadow137]

But the thing is they either are 3-A or they are not. The Valar are 3-A, certain Maiar are comparable to them. Putting them at Possibly Far Higher is just a poor solution, as there is nothing to support it beyond comparability to the Valar, which would earn them 3-A.

My whole point is that this comparison, though clearly meaning certain Maiar are greater than others, does not necessarily warrant a 3-A tier. It's essentially a false dichotomy.

 

[Tyranno223]

My whole point is that this comparison, though clearly meaning certain Maiar are greater than others, does not necessarily warrant a 3-A tier. It's essentially a false dichotomy.

And yet I disagree, as the statement brings comparison to the Valar, not to the other Maiar.

I'll make a summarising post either later today, or tomorrow, as I really am not convinced.

 

[TheMerchant66]

The biggest problem with the Lore is how important the Kingdon of Arda seems to be despite being only a planet/star system, there is the quote that says the Valars power isn't restricted to grandiose levels of power but that they also have great control and subtly.


The works on Arda are also specifically meant to be super important to the cosmology, maybe raising the 2 Lamps for example is meant to be greater than creating Galaxies not saying that's the case but throwing that out there, the Maiar being Nigh Valar tier aren't ever specified but Eönwë Ilmarë and Melian are probably high contenders, Melian especially who on her own made the Elves of Beleriend almost on par with Elves from Aman and her Girdle can keep out an amped Ungoliant + Morgoths forces in general.

Tillion has no real hype besides driving the Moon and being a Hunter for Ossë, which base Ungoliant was scared of fighting but she has no feats so not sure how impressive that is.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Do we have any evidence that all the stars and galaxies are like irl, as big and distant? Because the sun and moon just orbit the earth and can fit inside a continent, iirc. I know it's supposed to be our real world in the past, but cosmology could still be different and Eru did change things in the 2nd age.

If the Valar are more tier 6, I think the scaling issues are lessened quite a bit.

 

[Tyranno223]

All right, got more free time than I thought today, so here I go. I probably could organise this more, but I feel like the argument will continues after this anyway.

Nigh-Valar tier/Chief Maiar tier - What is the foundation
The Silmarillion has this line "And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves, and they laboured together in the ordering of the Earth and the curbing of its tumults." - These "companions" logically refers to fellow Ainur, aka the Maiar.

The Oxford Dictionary says this about the word "nigh"
adverb
near in space, time, or relation: The time draws nigh.
nearly; almost; (often followed by on or onto):

Now it's unlikely "nigh" refers to a spatial relation, as the term less is used to refer to other members of the Maiar as well, implying they are speaking of greatness.

The term "great" too has many meanings, but as I covered in page 4, the language around the Valar is pretty cut and dry. For instance, "The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda" - refers to greatness as in might or grandeur, and while this sentence alone does not state this, reading the rest of the chapter, and the Silmarillion as a whole, sees the term "great" often used in relation to highlight the grandeur, power, and majesty of a thing. For instance, "great fires", "Great Ones" (in relation to the Valar), "greater and lesser spirits", etc. Whilst they're also used for other purposes, I'm being overly pedantic here because the point I'm trying to make is that the phrase

"nigh as great..." - is very cut and dry, and that no nuance needs to be added to the term. This isn't a Literature Exam where we analyse the spectacled billboards.

Non-Canon
Now, this will be a tangent, as whilst I am about to discuss non-canon material, the point I am trying to highlight is intent, which is carried over.

Morgoth's Ring is a source of much abandoned material (alongside some used ones), and tells us much about the direction Tolkien was potentially planning to take with his characters.

For instance, with Eonwe, we learn that his original conception as Fionwe, son of Manwe and Varda, is rather comparable with the Valar

"Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate, coming from the halls of Mandos...

Moreover, we even have a line in "The Book of Lost Tales" where Eonwe is even the one to kill Morgoth to avenge Arien (with different names naturally)

Osse on the other hand was not just depicted on a comparable, but to also outright be a Vala in his own right in previous conceptions

"These are the nine chieftains of the Valar that dwelt in Arda: Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, Orome, Tulkas, Osse, Mandos, Lorien,(2) and Melkor"

And one later revision has this to say "'he [Osse] was not a Vala, but a chief of the Maiar, servant of Ulmo.'"

Now none of this is relevant in and of itself, but will be noteworthy later.

Chief Maiar - Contradictions
Now, I have to ask the question, do the Chief Maiar have any reason not to be Nigh-Valar tier? Do they have glaring contradictions?

Eonwe
Silmarillion/UT - "One of the mightiest of the Maiar"

Silmarillion - "Chief among the Maiar of Valinor..."

UT - "To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his Herald Eönwë..."

HOME - "In the Great Battle when at last Eonwe herald of Manwe over- threw Morgoth and Thangorodrim was broken"

HOME - "Fionwe son of Manwe was the leader and commanding authority in the final war against Morgoth and his overthrow; but the abandonment of that conception, and the change in the 'status' of Fionwe / Eonwe to that of Manwe's herald led to doubt whether my father, had he ever returned to a real retelling of the story of the end of the Elder Days (see XI.245-7), would have retained Eonwe in so mighty and elemental a role. His part was in consequence somewhat diminished by omissions and ambiguous wording (as may be seen by comparing the text in Vol.V with that of the published Silmarillion; cf. also the editorial addition made to the Valaquenta, X.203). There is however no evidence for this supposition, and I now believe it to have been a mistaken treatment of the original text, and so also here in the Akallabeth."

All of the above make it clear that Eönwë is chief among the Maiar, personally overthrowing Morgoth (albeit a weakened one, but still superior to Ancalagon), and leading the defeat of Angband.

However, there is the matter of Ancalagon. While I'm not about to restart the conversation of whether or not he was repulsed by the Winged Dragons (we've both made or stances clear, and there is no budging there), we can prove it to be PIS or an Outlier if he was repulsed.

Eönwë is chief among the Maiar, one of the mightiest of their number, and specifically Herald to Manwë. Thorondor is the greatest eagle of Manwë. Yet we learn of these lines in Morgoth's Ring -

"Manwe however sent Maia spirits in Eagle form to dwell near Thangorodrim"

"that the spirits flying from Manwë's halls in the shape of hawks and eagles were borne by their wings 'through the three regions of the firmament"

and whilst this concept was abandoned for some time

in 1970, it reappears for good

"The most notable were those Maiar who took the form of the mighty speaking eagles that we hear of in the legends of the war of the Ñoldor against Melkor, and who remained in the West of Middle-earth until the fall of Sauron and the Dominion of Men, after which they are not heard of again. Their intervention in the story of Maelor, in the duel of Fingolfin and Melkor, in the rescue of Beren and Lúthien is well known..."

Now we know Eönwë is chief among the Maiar, and it logically stands that he should be superior to Thorondor, who personally assisted in the defeat of Ancalagon the Black. This, combined with the fact he defeats Morgoth, and is likely superior to a Sauron above Ancalagon, makes it clear Eönwë is not a contradiction to the notion of a Nigh-Valar Maia.

Ossë
He shows up so little that he literally cannot be a contradiction. In fact, the only major things we learn from him (that are relevant to this conversation) is that Morgoth desired to use him as a tool against Ulmo

"Melkor hated the Sea, for he could not subdue it. It is said that in the making of Arda he endeavoured to draw Ossë to his allegiance, promising to him all the realm and power of Ulmo, if he would serve him. So it was that long ago there arose great tumults in the sea that wrought ruin to the lands. But Uinen, at the prayer of Aulë, restrained Ossë and brought him before Ulmo; and he was pardoned and returned to his allegiance, to which he has remained faithful. "

Now, this certainly could refer to Ossë being a powerful tool against Ulmo's domain, and I'd in fact agree, as Ulmo is a member of the Aratar. What is significant is the size of his domain. He is master of all coastal seas, while his counterpart Uinen spreads her hair across all of Arda's surface waters. Such domains make up an impressive chunk of Ulmo's own domain (as Lord of all Waters), and it's implied Ossë is limiting himself - "He does not go in the deeps, but loves the coasts and the isles, and rejoices in the winds of Manwë; for in storm he delights, and laughs amid the roaring of the waves..." - The quote seemingly hints that he limits his domain to the regions he enjoys, otherwise he may venture into the deeper seas.

Now, this does not mean anything significant for or against my argument on its own, but it does when you consider their origin and the themes. Ossë is set up as a domain-holding vassal of Ulmo (a remarkable thing for a Maia, as even Eönwë is a Herald), and his power is shown able to oppose his domain. This is reflective of the older texts were he is a rival Vala to Ulmo, and capable of contesting his control over the waters. Of course this doesn't mean they're on par, but it does thematically imply Ossë is akin to a Vala in influence (and of course, we know Tolkien considers the two as chief among the Maiar)

Arien
Again, there's nothing to contradict her being at this level. We only have quotes of a weakened Morgoth fearing her, which puts her above Ancalagon automatically, which means no issues.

Melian
Da Capo

Isn't it a bit too much of a difference between tiers?
This is just a classic argument from incredulity. The Valar are the same race as the Maiar, and yet they are astronomically superior to most of the latter.

Isn't "Likely Higher" a better option?
Initially I was heading towards this option, yet this only works if we destroy the initial premise, "...nigh as great as themselves..." If we accept this statement as true, then the Maiar of this level are possibly/likely 3-A, as they are most likely comparable.

If the statement is rejected, there is not point in saying "likely higher" as not gap is present that suggests such an approach

If you say, we don't know if this implies they're 3-B or 3-C, then this is just a bad faith argument, as those tiers are not comparable with 3-A.

Sauron as an issue
Let me just repeat myself here.

To be frank

Sauron being chief among the Maiar is supported only by these things.

He's the mightiest Fallen Maia, yet even Maiar like the Balrog are considered mighty among the Fallen Maiar, despite being outclassed by many of their Valinorian counterparts.

He might scale to Eönwë, but this is not something which is confirmed, and relies on a contradictory extrapolation.

He is considered a greater order Maia to the Istari, but this does not mean he is among the highest of the rank.

Aren't your individual Nigh-Valar tiers flimsy?
To be frank, minus Eönwë, Ossë, Uinen, and Ilmarë, all of the others are up for debate.

But as long as the initial statement remains, the chief among the Maiar are likely comparable to the Valar.

 

[Tyranno223]

Do we have any evidence that all the stars and galaxies are like irl, as big and distant? Because the sun and moon just orbit the earth and can fit inside a continent, iirc. I know it's supposed to be our real world in the past, but cosmology could still be different and Eru did change things in the 2nd age.

If the Valar are more tier 6, I think the scaling issues are lessened quite a bit.

Well there is the fact that LOTR is meant to be an IRL mythology, but to be honest, I feel like it can be downgraded.

There are bits on Cosmology across works, but I'm mostly focusing on organising profiles before performing massive changes.

A process which is being repeatedly delayed. Mind you, the Valar are still said to have an almost absolute command over the material universe, so it's likely gonna be higher than 6-A, although maybe 6-A, Likely Higher (how ironic) if it's just a flat world. We'll have to see.

 

[Tyranno223]

Had a quick glance over the metaphysics chapter in NOME (not that I'm about to look in depth into the Cosmology yet) and the material universe is essentially the product of an "intelligent designer" philosophy, where patterns emerge from a prime matter emerging from Eru, and mediated by the Valar... reminds me of A Level Philosophy.

 

[Moonshadow137]

Isn't "Likely Higher" a better option?
Initially I was heading towards this option, yet this only works if we destroy the initial premise, "...nigh as great as themselves..." If we accept this statement as true, then the Maiar of this level are possibly/likely 3-A, as they are most likely comparable.

If the statement is rejected, there is not point in saying "likely higher" as not gap is present that suggests such an approach

While this is basically just a summary to your points that were already established and that I believe I have already had my take on, I do think this particular section is problematic. To me it looks like a fallacy, a false dichotomy, where there's only one possible interpretation of that grammatical conundrum if we assume it's true, which is most likely not the case.

I would like @Antvasima to have a look at this, 'cause there's not much left for me to say that I haven't already, and we don't want the thread to keep going on cycles.

 

[Tyranno223]

While this is basically just a summary to your points that were already established and that I believe I have already had my take on, I do think this particular section is problematic. To me it looks like a fallacy, a false dichotomy, where there's only one possible interpretation of that grammatical dichotomy if we assume it's true, which is most likely not the case.

I would like @Antvasima to have a look at this, 'cause there's not much left for me to say that I haven't already, and we don't want the thread to keep going on cycles.

Fair enough, we have filled an entire page.

At this point it's clear neither of us will agree on this point.

 

[Moonshadow137]

As a side note, I don't believe "Morgoth's Ring" and the likes should be taken as reliable sources of information, since Christopher's opinion on his father's work is know for causing controversial opinions among the Legendarium fans, myself included.

Besides, we're clearly facing Death of the Author here with most of this work so I'd advise caution with Morgoth's Ring, HOME and other similar works.

 

[Tyranno223]

As a side note, I don't believe "Morgoth's Ring" and the likes should be taken as reliable sources of information, since Christopher's opinion on his father's work is know for causing controversial opinions among the Legendarium fans, myself included.

Besides, we're clearly facing Death of the Author here with most of this work so I'd advise caution with Morgoth's Ring, HOME and other similar works.

You can use them with a degree of caution. No one's going to argue that Eonwe is now known as Fionwe, and no one is gonna claim the Valar copulate.

And many people still use those as valid sources. Don't try and discount texts for no reason other than "controversy".

 

[Moonshadow137]

And many people still use those as valid sources. Don't try and discount texts for no reason other than "controversy".

I found this claim particularly agressive, though I'll let it slide because it's a bit hard to regulate tone in a text-based forum. In any case, I wasn't trying to "discount" texts based on controversy, just advising against proeminent use of a work that's technically noncanon without further examination. I didn't make any particular claims about your argument, either.

Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

 

[Tyranno223]

I found this claim particularly agressive, though I'll let it slide because it's a bit hard to regulate tone in text-based foruns. In any case, I wasn't trying to "discount" texts based on controversy, just advising against proeminent use of a work that's technically noncanon without further examination. I didn't make any particular claims about your argument, either.

Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

It was meant to come off as slightly snarky, but yeah, that might have come off as rather malicious instead.

That being said, elements of the UT and Morgoth's Ring can be considered canon. The UT in particular contains ideas on the Istari and others that have no reason to be discounted, and have been used as sources of information before.

As I said before, no one is gonna make claims that are outrighr outdated (at least on purpose) or abandoned, so such an ovarching statement came off as rather condescending to me.

 

[Moonshadow137]

The books I currently try to base most of my POV regarding the Legendarium are: LOTR trilogy, The Hobbit, The Silmarilion, Unfinished Tales, Beren and Lúthien and the Fall of Gondolin. I'm fundamentally skeptical about basically every other source since that hasn't been published by HarperCollins, and I tend to look to even those last three with certain hesitation.

For instance, Beren and Lúthien claims Lúthien was the greastest of the elves, while Feänor is claimed as such in The Silmarilion iirc, and Galadriel has at least three claims to that spot as well, and when I see this kind of contradiction, it comes to me as an inherent problem that may constantly arise from compiling older manuscripts, some of which were discarded, into a "sourcebook". Though granted, this skepticism probably comes with a little bias - I'm something of a writer myself, and when I'm going through older drafts of a same piece of work I can find the most egregious contradictions. It's rather common.

 

[Moonshadow137]

Anyway, it has been a good talk, and however we end up deciding to apply the changes, I guess we each made our points to the best of our opinions and understanding. That's actually what I like the most about the Legendarium, the way it's open to interpretation.

 

[Tyranno223]

Anyway, it has been a good talk, and however we end up deciding to apply the changes, I guess we each made our points to the best of our opinions and understanding. That's actually what I like the most about the Legendarium, the way it's open to interpretation.

It is the best and worst part abour Tolkien. It's open to a lot of interpretation.

 

[Tyranno223]

The books I currently try to base most of my POV regarding the Legendarium are: LOTR trilogy, The Hobbit, The Silmarilion, Unfinished Tales, Beren and Lúthien and the Fall of Gondolin. I'm fundamentally skeptical about basically every other source since that hasn't been published by HarperCollins, and I tend to look to even those last three with certain hesitation.

For instance, Beren and Lúthien claims Lúthien was the greastest of the elves, while Feänor is claimed as such in The Silmarilion iirc, and Galadriel has at least three claims to that spot as well, and when I see this kind of contradiction, it comes to me as an inherent problem that may constantly arise from compiling older manuscripts, some of which were discarded, into a "sourcebook". Though granted, this skepticism probably comes with a little bias - I'm something of a writer myself, and when I'm going through older drafts of a same piece of work I can find the most egregious contradictions. It's rather common.

I tend to prefer finding middle grounds, as decrying texts as absolutely wrong is just... well wrong in my personal opinion. I'm not Tolkien afterall.

Of course bias seeps in, but looking through sources I found texts saying Manwë was equal, slightly weaker, massively weaker, etc than Melkor for instance, and went with the middle, as it appears more common and logical.

Even the Silmarillion has errors afterall, such as the line about Eonwe "master of arms" being a made up line by Christopher that is widely accepted.

 

[Antvasima]

While this is basically just a summary to your points that were already established and that I believe I have already had my take on, I do think this particular section is problematic. To me it looks like a fallacy, a false dichotomy, where there's only one possible interpretation of that grammatical conundrum if we assume it's true, which is most likely not the case.

I would like @Antvasima to have a look at this, 'cause there's not much left for me to say that I haven't already, and we don't want the thread to keep going on cycles.

Well, the problem is that I am not particularly good at evaluating subjects that I am not indepth familiar with, although Tyranno's long post above regarding some of the Maiar nearly approaching the Valar in might seemed to make sense to me.

What do you think, @TheMerchant66 and @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan ?

 

[TheMerchant66]

I mentioned this a while back but Tolkien intended for the flat earth stuff to be an in-universe creation myth by the men of Númenor, later on Tolkien intended to make his lore "scientifically" accurate I mean that in the loosest terms, such as the Earth being round from the start.

I don't think that stuff was really fleshed out, though. I do know Arien still might have control of the Sun which is in this version exactly our Sun, so this might make Maia on the level of Arien at least star level.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What do the rest of you think about that suggestion?

 

[Tyranno223]

For the time being, shall I just go ahead with the changes (not right now, but when I'm free).

Everyone else can come to a consensus on that particular thing in the meantime (alongside Ungoliant and other issues), but it's holding up the immediately doable changes.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine to me.

 

[TheMerchant66]

Not much to add but I read the Fingolfin vs. Morgoth fight and it says Morgoths might was still the greatest of all things in the world, not sure how to frame this tbh. There is a quote posted earlier that implies the Valar either grew weaker or purposely just held back a lot of power by the time of the first age, maybe that's how Morgoth still being the strongest can be reconciled.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the information.

@Tyranno223

How is your revision project proceeding?