Lord of the Rings revisions

[Tyranno223]

Witch King also has snowstorms under his belt and maybe Saruman does
My question is if should this scale to physical stuff or just be via Magic

I'd have to look at the quote, but the Witch King should scale to Gandalf the White by the RotK (I'm thinking of giving him an up to tier).

LOTR characters have cases of being able to physically harm individuals who survive their "magic", as seen with Gandalf vs the Balrog, which saw both factors come into play, but if can be case by case.

 

[Tyranno223]

"There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung
of the Battle of the Peak.’ Suddenly Gandalf laughed. ‘But what
would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that
the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and
lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken
into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about
us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and
he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he
smote it in his ruin."


The storm feat is the main thing.

 

[Antvasima]

I'll provide the quote for it later today.

Regardiny intelligence, who "Unknown, possibly Nigh-Omniscient"? Work?

They are extremely knowledgeable of the world in general, they just have some areas they're lazer focused in.

Morgoth (and Manwë to a lesser extent) is an exception as he's knowledgeable in all areas, but not to the same extent as the Valar in their specific areas. Would that be Super-genius or just unknown (possibly "Nigh-Omniscient"?)

Nigh-Omniscient is a very extreme tier, and I think that the LotR characters seem defined in a too uncertain manner in terms of intelligence to give them a concrete rating, at least at the moment. We probably have to stick with "unknown" combined with more specific explanations of their areas of knowledge.

 

[Antvasima]

"There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung
of the Battle of the Peak.’ Suddenly Gandalf laughed. ‘But what
would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that
the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and
lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken
into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about
us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and
he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he
smote it in his ruin."

The storm feat is the main thing.

Thank you.

@M3X @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Damage3245 @Therefir

Would any of you be willing to calculate this feat please? Tell us here if you accept.

 

[Tyranno223]

Nigh-Omniscient is a very extreme tier, and I think that the LotR characters seem defined in a too uncertain manner in terms of intelligence to give them a concrete rating, at least at the moment. We probably have to stick with "unknown" combined with more specific explanations of their areas of knowledge.

I'll fix that for the first key of the Valar and Morgoth then.

Would their second key still qualify for possibly Nigh-Omniscient? Prior to entering the universe, it was said their knowledge was greater, and all the Ainur participated in the Great Music, where almost all the concepts for the universe were laid out.

Also, some of the Maiar are said to be incredibly skilled in particular areas (for instance Eönwë is the most knowledgeable when it comes to arms, above even the likes of the Valar, and Olorin is called the wisest of the Maiar) I've provisionally begun giving them "genius" for their intelligence (Eönwë was already rated at that in fact), but is this enough to qualify?

 

[Tyranno223]

Also, as an added note, I've added limitless for the stamina of the Ainur (except special cases like Morgoth's first key), as it is outright said they need no sustenance, and that their physical forms are akin to clothing (albeit dying seems to be more... traumatic than losing a jumper).

 

[Antvasima]

I'll fix that for the first key of the Valar and Morgoth then.

Thank you.

Would their second key still qualify for possibly Nigh-Omniscient? Prior to entering the universe, it was said their knowledge was greater, and all the Ainur participated in the Great Music, where almost all the concepts for the universe were laid out.

Possibly, yes, although I remember that the Choushin goddesses, who created the Tenchi Muyo multiverse, only received Supergenius intelligence for constructing it from scratch, as they are not really nearly all-knowing in the traditional sense.

@QuasiYuri

What do you think?

Also, characters are said to be incredibly skilled in particular areas (for instance Eönwë is the most knowledgeable when it comes to arms, above even the likes of the Valar, and Olorin is called the wisest of the Maiar) I've provisionally begun giving them "genius" for their intelligence (Eönwë was already rated at that in fact), but is this enough to qualify?

Genius in their specific areas is probably fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, as an added note, I've added limitless for the stamina of the Ainur (except special cases like Morgoth's first key), as it is outright said they need no sustenance, and that their physical forms are akin to clothing (albeit dying seems to be more... traumatic than losing a jumper).

That just sounds like Self-Sustenance, not the ability to literally fight forever without tiring.

 

[Tyranno223]

That just sounds like Self-Sustenance, not the ability to literally fight forever without tiring.

I put it at limitless, more so because the Ainur aren't really tied to their body.

But regardless, I'll put it at unknown except for special cases, as we've never seen a tired Ainu, even after days of combat (again, outside of special cases like Gandalf, who was placed in a mortal form).

 

[Antvasima]

Please read our Stamina page. We currently simply list such cases as "Superhuman", in lack of better options.

 

[Tyranno223]

Please read our Stamina page. We currently simply list such cases as "Superhuman", in lack of better options.

Thanks, will do.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

"There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung
of the Battle of the Peak.’ Suddenly Gandalf laughed. ‘But what
would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that
the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and
lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken
into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about
us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and
he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he
smote it in his ruin."


The storm feat is the main thing.

Hmmn the main issue is that we don't know how much of the mountain he destroyed or how big the storm was from just text.

 

[Tyranno223]

Hmmn the main issue is that we don't know how much of the mountain he destroyed or how big the storm was from just text.

The Atlas of Middle Earth (not 100% canon, but agreed to be the most canon description we have) puts the mountain range as running 900 miles, but the specific mountain they fight atop is unknown.

 

[Tyranno223]

Nigh-Omniscient is a very extreme tier, and I think that the LotR characters seem defined in a too uncertain manner in terms of intelligence to give them a concrete rating, at least at the moment. We probably have to stick with "unknown" combined with more specific explanations of their areas of knowledge.

Apparently Manwë is said to have the greatest amount of knowledge of all the Valar, to the exent that "no lore or arts of any of the others were to him a mystery". Would this being definable as Supergenius? In the meantime I'm putting him at Unknown. (He's also said to have some understanding of the knowledge of Eru, being closest to him in mind and will, but that's somewhat vague).

 

[Hellbeast]

I would say just flatly Genius or Extraodinary

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, it only seems to warrant a Genius or Extraordinary Genius rating. I am uncertain of which, given that this is a medieval setting with primitive technology.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, as I mentioned on @Tyranno223's wiki message wall, the formatting was not correct in his recent edits, so I would appreciate if he or somebody else here can clean them up.

See here for an example:

Morgoth

Morgoth, (Sindarin for "Dark Tyrant" or the "Dark Foe"), originally known as Melkor (Quenya for "He who arises in might"), is the primary antagonist of The Silmarillion. He was once the greatest of the Ainur, servants and creations of the Creator, Eru Ilúvatar, before becoming the first Dark...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I thinking going with Genius sounds safer unless there's details that would compare them to having intellect comparable to a futuristic supercomputer.

 

[Tyranno223]

Anyway, as I mentioned on @Tyranno223's wiki message wall, the formatting was not correct in his recent edits, so I would appreciate if he or somebody else here can clean them up.

See here for an example:

Morgoth

Morgoth, (Sindarin for "Dark Tyrant" or the "Dark Foe"), originally known as Melkor (Quenya for "He who arises in might"), is the primary antagonist of The Silmarillion. He was once the greatest of the Ainur, servants and creations of the Creator, Eru Ilúvatar, before becoming the first Dark...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Right, sorry about that. Still a bit new to this.

 

[Antvasima]

I thinking going with Genius sounds safer unless there's details that would compare them to having intellect comparable to a futuristic supercomputer.

Yes, that makes sense to me.

Right, sorry about that. Still a bit new to this.

No problem, but it would be good if you clean up your previous edits patterned after the example that I provided above.

 

[Tyranno223]

Yes, that makes sense to me.

No problem, but it would be good if you clean up your previous edits patterned after the example that I provided above.

I'll do that. I've had some moving stuff arrive, so there might be a short delay.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Tyranno223]

Rewarding Manwë's intelligence, I ask about him because it's said he knows more than all the other Valar, even though they are said to have complete understanding of their particular aspects of the universe (for instance, Varda with light and stars, Ulmo with the Sea and water) and great knowledge of the world itself.

I'll probably just keep him at unknown them, since that's where the other Valar are at, albeit with a note saying he's more knowledgeable than them.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Antvasima]

You still seem to mix things up in your edits. Please make an effort to correct all similar errors that you have made.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Manwë?type=revision&diff=7446195&oldid=7445988

 

[Tyranno223]

You still seem to mix things up in your edits. Please make an effort to correct all similar errors that you have made.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Manwë?type=revision&diff=7446195&oldid=7445988

Ah, sorry about that one, I seem to have left that edit half finished by accident. I'll need to give them all a readthrough again, I seem to be leaving striking strength as Universe Class+(I don't know where I got that from).

If I keep messing up with the edits, it might be good to have someone help out.

 

[Tyranno223]

Also:

Ossë, Arien, and Tilion

Need unlocking.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Since the 6-B feat is invalid, may I ask which characters do not scale to Sauron and require calculations? Gandalf's current 7-B rating is merely assumed and I'm not sure where 7-A comes from either.

 

[Tyranno223]

Since the 6-B feat is invalid, may I ask which characters do not scale to Sauron and require calculations? Gandalf's current 7-B rating is merely assumed and I'm not sure where 7-A comes from either.

Going to sleep now, but 7-A comes from the Sauron storm feat you mentioned above. People around Gandalf the White should scale to it (the two clashed over Henneth Annun, and whilst this was a mental struggle, Gandalf at this point is repeatedly compared to Sauron and said to be 2nd only to him, minus possibly the Witch-King).

Sauron at this point was still missing much of his native strength, and since Olorin is compared to Sauron in their origins, that gives a good basis for the "At Least" part. Then we have a lot of characters who can scale to Olorin (Istari are peers, albeit Radagast is mentioned as weaker than both Olorin and Curumo, we have the Nigh-Valar tier, Melian is the original leader of the Maiar who make up the Istari, etc).

If the 7-A tier isn't legit either, well then Sauron's and Gandalf's feats will need reassessment.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Ah I see. I assume that you haven't got to edited Sauron's page? Hence the confusion since he's still listed as 6-B.

If so then it's just Gandalf the Grey's tiering that there's an issue with.

 

[Tyranno223]

Ah I see. I assume that you haven't got to edited Sauron's page? Hence the confusion since he's still listed as 6-B.

If so then it's just Gandalf the Grey's tiering that there's an issue with.

Yeah, I'm doing a bit of a slow job, and my mistakes in the edits aren't helping heh.

Yeah the latter is the main thing that needs resolving calc wise.

 

[Antvasima]

Ah, sorry about that one, I seem to have left that edit half finished by accident. I'll need to give them all a readthrough again, I seem to be leaving striking strength as Universe Class+(I don't know where I got that from).

If I keep messing up with the edits, it might be good to have someone help out.

I am unfortunately too overworked to do so right now. It is best if you simply closely follow all of the instructions that I have left you here and on your wiki message wall.

Also:

Ossë, Arien, and Tilion

Need unlocking.

I will handle it.

 

[Tyranno223]

I am unfortunately too overworked to do so right now. It is best if you simply closely follow all of the instructions that I have left you here and on your wiki message wall.

I will handle it.

It's no problem, you have a lot more to deal with than me.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the consideration.

 

[Tyranno223]

Came across this line while looking for intelligence justifications for the Ainur (since this is something I clearly neglected).

"The matters of Eä proceed from a single erma" - a "prime matter", which NOME describes as being that from "which all nassi "materials" derive.

This comes from the chapter on Metaphysics, which I'm frankly leaving for a later discussion on the verse' cosmology, as I'm barely qualified to look into that on my own.

However, the relevant comes from a previous chapter on the Powers of the Valar, which says "they had complete understanding of the erma and of the structures of its variations, since they had themselves (under Eru) designed and brought about these variations..."

The statement about "complete understanding" is a clear exaggeration, as the Valar have specialised skill-sets to a degree, but it does demonstrate them all having a great understanding of Eä even within its confines. (Previously, by existing outside Eä, they essentially had a bird's eye view, whereas now they are limited to memory) The Maiar too would have a great understanding of the world, given they also participated in Eä's creation, albeit to a lesser degree.

There's also a statement about being able to receive knowledge from Eru, for the Valar.

 

[Tyranno223]

I don't believe this changes their rating from Unknown, but I decided to just lay this out in case it does.

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure how to properly rate their intelligence sections, given that they are very unconventional. My apologies.

Input would be appreciated.

 

[Moonshadow137]

I think there was a 7-C calc for Smaug, but I'm not sure if he can be scaled to the Maiar.

There is, he shook the Lonely Mountain. Strangely, the calc is on his movie counterpart's profile, but I'll link it here for simplicity.

In any case, I think it's arguably safe to scale him to Balrogs and therefore other Maiar (specially Sauron). Balrogs are heavily implied to be greater in hierarchy than dragons, and rode them as mounts during the Fall of Gondolin. Besides, when Morgoth himself was overwhelmed by Ungoliant, a group of Balrogs went to the rescue, attacked the spider and drove it off. I'm pretty sure Ungoliant is mightier than any dragon. Granted the Balrogs were grouped, and Morgoth might have naturally helped, but that's nonetheless no small feat.

In fact, Smaug is not particularly large or powerful - for a dragon, I mean -, as he was stll young and not fully grown when he attacked the Lonely Mountain back then. So we can assume dragons like Glaurung and Ancalagon were (much) larger and more powerful, and safely scale this feat to Balrogs and other Maiar (though they for sure have better feats). More importantly, the feat should be scaled to dragonslayers like Túrin Turambar, Eärendil and to those who can fight and defeat Balrogs, like Ecthelion, Glorfindel, etc.

Speaking of scalling:

We have the Ancalagon feat, which is hard to scale reliably since he barely appears at all.

I can see the reluctance in scalling Ancalagon's feat, but we can clearly scale him to Eärendil, who killed him, and to Sauron, for "among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel." Being the greatest of Morgoth's servants, Sauron should reliably scale to Ancalagon without much issue.

Ancalagon has a single sentence worth of appearances last I checked, so it's a bit tough. Maybe figure out who scales to Earendil, who slayed him? Although I think he managed to use a Silmaril offensively there.

It's basically a certainty that Eärendil weaponized the Silmaril there, which makes scalling from him kinda tricky. I guess we could figure out who scales to who/what after we listed the relevant feats.

 

[Moonshadow137]

Since the 6-B feat is invalid, may I ask which characters do not scale to Sauron and require calculations? Gandalf's current 7-B rating is merely assumed and I'm not sure where 7-A comes from either.

There's a calced feat on Ungoliant's profile (link here for simplicity), where Morgoth screams and causes some quakin'. Not sure which end was accepted by you guys (goes from Low 7-B to 6-C), but that could potentially scale to someone - Ungoliant definitely tanked it, and Balrogs harmed her... also I don't think it's much of a problem to scale it to Sauron and those of his might, for that was just a casual scream of literal pain, not close to any dedicated attack or something.

Also Fingolfin fought and hurt him, I guess we could assume he would have tanked some powerful shockwaves screaming during the fight.