Lord of the Rings revisions

[Antvasima]

Got Fall of Númenor today and Eru is called "The All-Powerful Transcendent creator" not sure if that was posted here, the key word there is "Transcendent" Admittedly this was written by Brian Shipley not by Tolkien himself nor his son so unsure how we will take this evidence, ofc I see that Catholic dogma being used from earlier so it's fair game?

I think that we can only use information that stems from J.R.R. Tolkien himself, not unrelated personal interpretations from scholars.

 

[Tyranno223]

Sorry for not making any changes to the pages. I've been burnt out from writing lately.

I believe writers are fine when given explicit approval from Tolkien(eithsr J.R.R or Christopher) however, anything after the two's deaths is kinda nebulous.

Is there any further context to the quote.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, explicit approval from the elder Tolkien is probably fine, but not from his son.

 

[Antvasima]

@TheMerchant66 @Tyranno223

Anyway, I would greatly appreciate if you are willing to help out with applying what has been accepted here when you have recovered enough energy to do so.

 

[Tyranno223]

Well, explicit approval from the elder Tolkien is probably fine, but not from his son.

Christopher is the one who took over Tolkien Estate and organised J.R.R's notes into books like the Silmarillion.

His contribution to the Legendarium should be taken into consideration when it isn't contradictory to his father (for instance, he admitted that removing Eönwë's overthrowal of Morgoth from the Silmarillion was a mistake.)

I'll try and get started on the changes this week.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if we went by somebody simply owning the rights to Tolkien's works, this would make the current "Rings of Power" (bleargh) Amazon show canon to the lore.

Anyway, thank you very much for helping out.

 

[Tyranno223]

Well, if we went by somebody simply owning the rights to Tolkien's works, this would make the current "Rings of Power" (bleargh) Amazon show canon to the lore.

Anyway, thank you very much for helping out.

That's a fair point, but Christopher is in a rather unique position. Without him, most of the written Legendarium wouldn't have been compiled, and works like the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales would have been lacking.

He's definitely secondary to his father, but he's still second.

Plus J.R.R called him his "chief critic and collaborator" and made him his literary executor in his will (whatever this means.)

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but we still cannot have him include the works of other authors as canon to the lore after his father's death, for example. That would go strongly against our overall wiki standards for what is considered canon.

 

[Tyranno223]

Of course in regards to any works, but his compilation of his father's works should be considered canon. His alterations are questionable, but his efforts in getting all of Tolkien's remaining notes into organised books is why we have works like the Silmarillion in coherent timelines.

 

[ImmortalDread]

By any chance, the plot manipulation discussion has been found and got rejected, is this true? Since I saw some changes in the profile and someone was trying to add it.

 

[Tyranno223]

By any chance, the plot manipulation discussion has been found and got rejected, is this true? Since I saw some changes in the profile and someone was trying to add it.

I believe it was rejected.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I believe it was rejected.

Yap, alright, what else needs to be done as far? I can help you with this matter.

 

[Tyranno223]

Yap, alright, what else needs to be done as far? I can help you with this matter.

I'm beginning changes to the Ainur so that their last keys all become At least Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C. I'm adding references to just Manwe and Morgoth's pages, given they're the two strongest (with Morgoth being the most plot relevant.)

The general description would be something like

"The Ainur in their origin exist beyond the LOTR universe, viewing it as a secondary and lower plane of existence." - For Low 2-C

and

"The Ainur are described as being 'real' and 'mighty' by Eru, would perceives a the space-time contiuum of LOTR as being on the same level as fiction." for likely Low 1-C

 

[ImmortalDread]

Alright, this seems fine. But I would reword those two into:

The Ainur are entities that exist in a realm beyond the world depicted in The Lord of the Rings, and they perceive it as a lower and secondary plane of existence.

The Ainur, as described by Eru, are considered to be powerful and genuine entities, who view the space-time continuum depicted in The Lord of the Rings as being on par with a work of fiction.

 

[Antvasima]

Of course in regards to any works, but his compilation of his father's works should be considered canon. His alterations are questionable, but his efforts in getting all of Tolkien's remaining notes into organised books is why we have works like the Silmarillion in coherent timelines.

Yes, agreed, but if he ever stated that he endorsed some other author who began to write based on his father's setting, that obviously wouldn't be acceptable to regard as official canon.

 

[Tyranno223]

Yes, agreed, but if he ever stated that he endorsed some other author who began to write based on his father's setting, that obviously wouldn't be acceptable to regard as official canon.

100% agree there. Rings of Power can especially stay non-canon.

 

[Tyranno223]

Alright, this seems fine. But I would reword those two into:

Thanks, I'll use that wording.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Thanks, I'll use that wording.

No problems, I am glad to help.

 

[Tyranno223]

I've made these two links to add alongside the references for Manwe and Melkor's pages. I'll at least have their pages changed by the end of today.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Nice, if you have any issues with working on the pages, let me know, I am free tonight.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you both for helping out.

 

[Experiment12]

Sorry to interrupt, I don't agree with Ainur, whose speed was lowered to "Infnite". They should be Immeasurable, maybe I'll give an explanation later.

 

[TheMerchant66]

There really isn't any more context to that statement, it's on page 7 for those who wanna look. Just that the Valar were delegated by Ilúvatar to shape the world calling him the All-powerful Transcendent creator.

Brian Sibley was chosen to be the new editor after Christopher's death if nothing else and actually I'm unsure if that statement was written by him or is in the History of Middle-Earth texts or the Letters of Tolkien which are the only sources I have yet to read so maybe that statement is from there

Not sure if I personally agree with 5D Ainur since the wrench in the argument is Eä being made "as real as them" implying an somewhat equivalent existence, I do agree with 4D since they are "bounded and contained" by Time when they enter it so who knows, feels vague but I suppose I can agree to the compromise of "possibly 5D"

But yeah best to move on from that discussion, as for speed Ainur probably are immeasurable outside of Eä whilst within can achieve infinite speeds via spirit form.

I'll get to the Elven stuff next post.

 

[Experiment12]

Btw, I don't agree with Morgoth 5D Low 1-C, I will give my direct argument

 

[Experiment12]

For Eru who was said to be Omnipotence.
Statements that lack coherence, misinterpretation. If a Character is declared "Omnipotent" then he is not actually classified as Omnipotent (in VsBattle's Standard), to be Omnipotent; Your character is required to meet the Omnipotent Terms & Criteria exposed in VsBattle's.
This has happened in a lot of Fiction, where observers make claims on achievements that are still uncertain, Feats which are still very coherent with Hyperbole, which will ratify that the Claim is NLF.

 

[Experiment12]

Eru is 5-D and The Ainur has a higher dimension rating.

This is something I've always said.
That; within the Eternal Hall, observers would see reality (3-Dimensional Space Continuum), only limited to Drama. This context here refers to-Reality>Fiction Gap.
However, the general question is, why is it declared a Reality Fiction Gap? Even though it could be that the Eternal Hall is outside our physical Universe, or in a different Dimension (same 3-Dimension but has a different place structure, analogically we can compare it like Universe-1 is an Infinite sized 3-D Space-time Continuum, and Universe-2 are Infinite Sized 3-D Space-time Continuum too, the difference is that in Universe-2 they don't have a Universe instead the word "Universe" is just a Label, but these two things are still reduced as L-2C because they are the same size). In fact, the Immortal Hall also stated:

• Outside the Universe (1)
• Separated from the Void (2)

These two things allow us to state that these dimensions are equivalent (lowball).

However, by stating that Ainur Sees Reality as Drama, this increases the Quality of Achievement which is coherent with the Higher-Dimension (Eternal Hall). Then this will qualify as "Ontological Superiority"

All Ainur members are very clean to get a Higher-Dimension rating, and have their own Physical Body in the 3-Dimensional World and walk according to the 3-Dimensional axis.

Iluvatar? Why is it 5-Dimensional?
Letter 192 has proven that Iluvatar already has an existence equal to the authority of The Lord of The Ring's Verse, even surpassing the Existence of A.K.A J.R.R Tolkien's Authority, so it is not impossible for him, to be reduced as a 6-Dimensional entity.

If you are still confused in the section on my explanation of Iluvatar Existence, later I will send a link to the VsB Thread where I state that Iluvatar has a 5-Dimensional Existence and has so much more potential.

 

[Antvasima]

There really isn't any more context to that statement, it's on page 7 for those who wanna look. Just that the Valar were delegated by Ilúvatar to shape the world calling him the All-powerful Transcendent creator.

Brian Sibley was chosen to be the new editor after Christopher's death if nothing else and actually I'm unsure if that statement was written by him or is in the History of Middle-Earth texts or the Letters of Tolkien which are the only sources I have yet to read so maybe that statement is from there

Not sure if I personally agree with 5D Ainur since the wrench in the argument is Eä being made "as real as them" implying an somewhat equivalent existence, I do agree with 4D since they are "bounded and contained" by Time when they enter it so who knows, feels vague but I suppose I can agree to the compromise of "possibly 5D"

But yeah best to move on from that discussion, as for speed Ainur probably are immeasurable outside of Eä whilst within can achieve infinite speeds via spirit form.

I'll get to the Elven stuff next post.

Thank you very much for helping out.

@TheMerchant66 @Tyranno223

What do you think about what Fortzy said above?

 

[TheMerchant66]

As I've mentioned the "perceive reality as a drama" is a misunderstanding on everyone's part. Tolkien does say that in a letter but he is referencing the events during the Ainulindalë, when the Ainur sang together they made a "Great Vision" of the Universe that played out essentially as a drama or a TV film whatever analogy you wanna use and then it became void until they asked Eru to make it real.

Afterwards he did and Eä later became "as real as them" somewhat throwing a wrench in say 5D scaling since it implies they're on the same "plane of existence" ergo one can argue they are only really outside of it

I will say the Ainur must have some sort of higher dimensional aspect during the Ainulindalë since the wording in regards to entering Eä is they are "Bounded by time" also others such as being "contained" and "descend"

5D Eru is more convincing with how he is above everything else to the point he is referred to as All Powerful and how he creared everything + transcending even Tolkien to the point he is the "True Author" of the story and sustains Eä in his thoughts.

Timeless Halls is another good piece of evidence since Eru made it and it does seem to be a higher dimension + one could argue he made the Void as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So do you wish to modify any of Tyranno223's recent LOTR revisions in some manner, or perform any other edits to them?

 

[Tyranno223]

I'm using separate evidence to the drama statement Merchant, I've been using stuff from NOME and Letters.

I've already presented my arguments in the last two pages if you want a look, I don't think your other counters are things that Dread hasn't already made.

For the Fortzy point, I've also made my argument against 6d Eru, and I don't think their point covers new ground. The rest I'll look at at home.

Regarding Immeasurable speed, I've found some evidence for it as a possible rating in Morgoth's Ring (which while largely made up of abandoned drafts, also contains some of Tolkien's last notes, which this is part of). I'll present that in a future point alongside changes to the "Within Eä" keys for the Ainur.

Edit: This possibly Immeasurable speed thing would only apply to the pre-Eä key however.

 

[Tyranno223]

I agree with Higher dimensional existence, given the language around the Ainur and Eru.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you both for helping out.

 

[Tyranno223]

All the "At Least Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C" changes and the respective wording changes have been made.

 

[Experiment12]

I think we should discuss all of Ainur getting "Greater Conceptual Manipulation Type 2".

 

[Antvasima]

All the "At Least Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C" changes and the respective wording changes have been made.

Thank you very much for helping out. It is greatly appreciated.

 

[TheMerchant66]

Decided to read pretty much everything in this thread so far + looking up the Ainur/Eru connection and I think the most solid thing that can ascertain 5D Ainur (in fact I'm pretty convinced of it now) is the "offspring of his thought" statement.

The Ainur aren't just self individuals like the children of Ilúvatar are (Elves and Men) they're quite literally aspects of Ilúvatars mind, extensions of himself albeit infinitely small compared to him but still an aspect.

Being literal parts of Ilúvatar should bump them up to 5D unless I am missing something.

But yeah, definitely last thing on this matter. As for an old thing I saw that I want to address is thr mountain which Balrog and Gandalf fought on. Tolkien said Celebdil (the mountain) pretty much is identical to Silberhone a RL mountain in Switzerland in a letter. The mountains peak was coveted in a storm, so maybe a calc can come from that.

 

[Antvasima]

Decided to read pretty much everything in this thread so far + looking up the Ainur/Eru connection and I think the most solid thing that can ascertain 5D Ainur (in fact I'm pretty convinced of it now) is the "offspring of his thought" statement.

The Ainur aren't just self individuals like the children of Ilúvatar are (Elves and Men) they're quite literally aspects of Ilúvatars mind, extensions of himself albeit infinitely small compared to him but still an aspect.

Being literal parts of Ilúvatar should bump them up to 5D unless I am missing something.

@TheMerchant66 @Tyranno223

Is this already mentioned in the Ainur pages?

But yeah, definitely last thing on this matter. As for an old thing I saw that I want to address is thr mountain which Balrog and Gandalf fought on. Tolkien said Celebdil (the mountain) pretty much is identical to Silberhone a RL mountain in Switzerland in a letter. The mountains peak was coveted in a storm, so maybe a calc can come from that.

If somebody gathers all of the available evidence, I can ask for one if you wish.

 

[Tyranno223]

@TheMerchant66 @Tyranno223

Is this already mentioned in the Ainur pages?

Well the idea of the Ainur as being literal thoughts was disputed earlier on in the thread by PrinceofPein, as the wording makes them more akin to being "born" of Eru's thoughts. The current reason for their likely 5d rating is because:

"The Ainur, as described by Eru, are considered to be powerful and genuine entities, who views the space-time continuum depicted in The Lord of the Rings as being on par with a work of fiction."

Basically that they exist alongside Eru and are perceived as genuine/real to him, whereas the 4d space-time of the LOTR universe is but mere thought in comparison.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Should their current tiering justifications be expanded on, or is it sufficient already?

Also, what other revisions are left to handle in this thread?

 

[Tyranno223]

Okay. Should their current tiering justifications be expanded on, or is it sufficient already?

It seems fine for now, at least that's my take on it.

Also, what other revisions are left to handle in this thread?

Because this is a general revision thread, new things just come in when people find the time or evidence.

I'm planning on a speed (for their "Prior to entering Eä" key, aka their At least Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C key) and key revision for the Ainur (regarding their "Within the confines of Eä" key, aka within space-time key).

Merchant brought up a potential new calc in his last post.

Hagane_no_Saiyajin's Smaug revision still needs to be implemented (from the Smaug calc thread).