Lord of the Rings revision

[Goodyfresh]

So I was browsing around the LOTR character-pages on here (I am a huge fan of all of Tolkien's writings) and came across the fact that Feanor has a lower tier than Fingolfi. Feanor is listed as High 7-A, while Fingolfin is listed as At Least 6-C.

This does not make sense, as word-of-god from Tolkien confirmed Feanor, multiple times, as the most powerful of all the Elves ever to live. Fingolfin himself regarded his brother as superior to him. If Fingolfin is at least Tier 6-C, then Feanor should scale to be the same level.

Feanor's page right here on Vs Battles does say the following in his description: "He was considered the greatest of the Eldar in arts and lore and the most powerful among them' but also the proudest and most self-willed." "Lore," of course, includes Magic. Moreover, here is a direct quote from the Silmarillion by Tolkien: "For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Iluvatar..."-- Silmarillion, Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor. This means Feanor was established in the Silmarillion as literally the strongest non-Godly being (not Valar, Maiar, or whatever Ungoliant was) of all time in the entire verse.

Of course, the community may disagree with me, in that case I'll drop this, but I think it seems pretty valid myself.

Edit: On further consideration I've realized the issue here may be Fingolfin's tier, rather than Feanor's. See my first post below.

 

[Alakabamm]

Sounds fine

 

[Goodyfresh]

Sounds fine

I was about to ask if it's okay to go edit Feanor's page, when I realized something--should we really upgrade Feanor to 6-C, or should we instead downgrade Fingolfi to 7-A (possibly High 7-A)? A strong argument could be made for Fingolfin only being 7-A to perform his feats, and on the same tier as the likes of Ancalagon The Black and Sauron (both 7-A to high 7-A). After all, Morgoth himself is listed on here as being only High 7-A with physical power (no magic). And he fought Fingolfin in purely physical combat, without using magical attacks, and in the end demolished Fingolfin while Fingolfin only managed to wound Morgoth's foot (albeit badly). What evidence do we have for Fingolfin being (physically) on a higher tier than Morgoth, if Morgoth managed to overwhelm him?

I'm actually changing the title of the thread to reflect this as I think it's something important to consider, that the scaling for these high-tier LOTR characters may have been a bit off in the past. I think the problem here might not be Feanor's Tier, but Fingolfin's. Anyone else in the community here who's pretty into Tolkien's work and would like to weigh in?

 

[Alakabamm]

wait for others

 

[Goodyfresh]

Okay. I've made an important edit to my last post and the title of the thread--I realized upon further consideration and re-perusual of The Silmarillion that the big problem here might actually be with Fingolfin's tier, not Feanor's. Let's see what people think.

It should be noted that Feanor's tier being High 7-A rather than 6-C would make more sense than him being 6-C given scaling from his showing against the Balrogs, but that given the statements in the book Feanor should still be more powerful than Fingolfin. So Fingolfin being 7-A makes more sense in that regard, too.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that it seems reasonable to downgrade Fingolfin.

 

[Goodyfresh]

I think that it seems reasonable to downgrade Fingolfin.

You also think he only needed to be mountain-level to wound Morgoth?

I'm thinking his tier would be "7-A, likely High 7-A" or something along those lines.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems to make sense, but I would prefer more input.

 

[Goodyfresh]

That seems to make sense, but I would prefer more input.

Let's give it a few days to see if other people notice this

I did notice one other issue with a LOTR-character-page. In this case it's Eru lluvatar, the highest God/The Creator of the entire Verse. I believe his immortality-type should probably be revised from Type 5 to Types 1 and 4. Here's the thread (which no one has posted in yet): Here

I know that people don't really do versus-battles with LOTR-verse characters (it don't seem to be popular universe for it), but I'd still like to strive for accuracy in the profiles if possible.

 

[Jucaslucas]

I believe there's a calc that puts Fingolfin at Island level.

And while we're at it, do you know what's Morgoth's size? His page says that he's hypersonic, and has a range of several kilometers due to his size. But his foot could fit in Fingolfin's neck, so I don't believe he was that big.

The hypersonic thing, I believe, is by scaling from the Balrogs.

And I have some issues with Sauron's durability too.

 

[Jucaslucas]

And, Fingolfin's profile says that Galadriel destroyed the Necromancer's fortress with strenght alone, but I'm pretty sure she nuked the place with magic. And her own profile lists it at just town level.

 

[CinCameron20]

Yeah, i just realized this tiering a few minutes ago. Fingolfin being 6-C in tier would mean that Feanor should be at the same tier, perhaps even higher rather than being a tier lower. It's fairly inconsistent with the text.

Unless as people have been saying, Fingolfin needs a downgrade.

I'm on board for a downgrade rather than an upgrade. I just checked (not very thoroughly) and I don't see anything "Island level" worthy. vs Morgoth should be enough to get them both at being Mountain+

 

[Goodyfresh]

Morgoth's attacks during his battle with Fingolfin were low-island level and Fingolfin, in the end, did not stand a chance. And that fight was Fingolfin's very best showing in terms of physical feats, as far as I am aware. I just did a reread of the Silmarillion recently myself, and can't think of anything where Fingolfin seemed to be Island-level.

So unless someone can come up with something like what Jucaslucas mentioned, a calc establishing Fingolfin as Island-level (which would mean Morgoth has to be High Island-level physically and Feanor would be 6-C), downgrading Fingolfin's tier to 7-A would probably be our best bet.

Bottom-line is, Fingolfin's tier throws things out-of-whack with regards to Morgoth's and Feanor's tiers.

 

[Jucaslucas]

"And that fight was Fingolfin's very best showing in terms of physical feats, as far as I am aware. "

Well, it's his only feat.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If there is a calc that puts Fingolfin in his fight with Morgoth at Island level, then I guess both should be 6-C.

If not, both should be High 7-A.

 

[Goodyfresh]

If there is a calc that puts Fingolfin in his fight with Morgoth at Island level, then I guess both should be 6-C.
If not, both should be High 7-A.

That's what I'm saying. Is there anyone who can produce or link to such a calc? Jucaslucas, you say you think you've seen it before. . .can you remember where?

I was thinking that if Morgoth is High 7-A, then Fingolfin should be simply 7-A, since in the end he was very outmatched in their fight and only managed to badly wound Morgoth's foot, while Morgoth tossed him around like a ragdoll and smashed his whole body with his hammer. That sounds to me like a fight between a normal 7-A and a High 7-A. But if others disagree and think Fingolfin had to be High 7-A to keep up with Morgoth at all, then that's fine, after all there's still a lot of breathing-room for power-differences in the High 7-A category.

 

[Jucaslucas]

I think it was on NF, but I have no idea how to search for blogs after they made those changes in the site.

 

[Aparajita]

Wait! No. Fing is stronger.

The Silmarillion: Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië Finwë was King of the Noldor. The sons of Finwë were Fëanor, and Fingolfin, and Finarfin; but the mother of Fëanor was Míriel Serindë, whereas the mother of Fingolfin and Finarfin was Indis of the Vanyar. Fëanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valient. Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart;

 

[Goodyfresh]

Wait! No. Fing is stronger.
The Silmarillion: Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië Finwë was King of the Noldor. The sons of Finwë were Fëanor, and Fingolfin, and Finarfin; but the mother of Fëanor was Míriel Serindë, whereas the mother of Fingolfin and Finarfin was Indis of the Vanyar. Fëanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valient. Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart;

That means we have two conflicting statements in the same exact book. The other statement definitively said that Feanor is the strongest of ALL the Children of Iluvatar in every single aspect. This kind of thing can happen in the Silmarillion, because the Silmarillion was pieced together from various papers and writings by Tolkien, later in his life and after his death by his son. So it makes sense to possibly have conflicting statements.

Between the two conflicting statements, I do think that the statement of Feanor being strongest should be deferred to. I have my reasons for this from having read the entirety of Tolkien's published writings on the First Age. Feanor forged the Silmarils, and he's the one who fought all the Balrogs together and held his ow for an extended period. That is arguably an even greater physical feat than fighting Morgoth and wounding his foot, since all the Balrogs together once managed to drive off Ungoliant when Morgoth alone couldn't.

The greatest indication of Feanor's power is seen in his birth and death: In the Tolkien-verse, magic and potential physical power are tied to the strength of a person's Fea, their soul. Feanor got his name because he had the strongest Fea ever in all the history of Arda. His mother was the only Elf to ever die of natural causes other than extreme grief, because most of the energy of her Fea passed into Feanor at the time of his birth due to the pull of his soul's power. Within a year after his birth, she wasted away and died. Millennia later, when Feanor died from his wounds fithing the Balrogs, his body burnt to ashes when his Fea left it. The residual energy from his soul leaving his body disintegrated it. The bodies of Elves were literally not meant to contain the kind of power that Feanor possessed. Fingolfin, on the other hand, left a body. Even moreso than Fingolfin, Feanor's power is portrayed as "mythical." And he was seen as beyond many of the Maiar and, in some ways, even the Valar, with his magic--No one else was able to replicate his feat of creating the Silmaril. In every instance except this one statement concerning Fingolfin, Feanor was portrayed as the strongest non-God ever.

 

[Jucaslucas]

Feanor has the most ṕowerful spirit, but overall power may not translate to fighting power. Fingolfin should be physically stronger, and Feanor having better magic, like creating the Silmarils and such, but that doesn't mean that his attacks are stronger in any form.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Actually, Feanor held his own for a long time against all the Balrogs together. Keep in mind that all the Balrogs together were able to drive off Ungoliant, when Morgoth alone in his physical form could not. The implications seem clear to me. Especially since Ungoliant at the time is considered to have been At Least 6-C on this wiki. Which is making me wonder more and more again why Morgoth (who was somewhat weakened at that time against Ungoliant) is not rated 6-C (purely physical) on here. . . .A lot of the LOTR tiers on here seem to be "off," although none by a huge amount.

Your argument is based on this one statement that Fingolfin is stronger, but there's also at least one definitive statement (the quote I gave earlier) that Feanor is stronger. So in that sense, statements of "strength" alone, it could really go 50/50 either way.

 

[Aparajita]

Actually, Feanor held his own for a long time against all the Balrogs together. Keep in mind that all the Balrogs together were able to drive off Ungoliant, when Morgoth alone in his physical form could not.

Hold up, that's right after Ungoliant had consumed the trees, making her *far* beyond whatever Morgoth could do.

Remember that Ungoliant is the personification of Hunger itself, and was there when Eru shaped the Universe.

 

[Jucaslucas]

It says he's the most powerful, and considering the variety of powers Elfs have, that could go for anything. Telepathy, seeing the future, being extremely good at crafting things or his amazing motivational speeches. His spirit burned as a flame, likely some extreme willpower.

Fingolfin is explicity stated to be strongest. Very likely, physically strongest. Morgoth himself has better feats of pure destruction than the Balrogs, and them beating Ungoliant might be because she was busy attacking him, or already weakened at that point by Morgoth's own attacks, and they just helped to shift the balance.

 

[Goodyfresh]

It says he's the most powerful, and considering the variety of powers Elfs have, that could go for anything. Telepathy, seeing the future, being extremely good at crafting things or his amazing motivational speeches. His spirit burned as a flame, likely some extreme willpower.
Fingolfin is explicity stated to be strongest. Very likely, physically strongest. Morgoth himself has better feats of pure destruction than the Balrogs, and them beating Ungoliant might be because she was busy attacking him, or already weakened at that point by Morgoth's own attacks, and they just helped to shift the balance.

Then what about this quote, that I pointed out earlier, fromt he same book you quoted: ""For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him." That statement makes it very clear that Feanor was the best at everything.

Like I said, we actually have two conflicting statements. In terms of just statements, this could seriously go 50/50. So we have to analyze the entirety of the text, carefully, to see which statement was more often portrayed as true.

About the Balrogs vs. Ungoliant: Um, Ungoliant had not been weakened at all by Morgoth, he'd never attacked her yet and she grabbed hold of and started hurting him. I clearly remember that scene because it was an awesome one, and Ungoliant's only issue at the time was that she was starting to become hungry again (probably wasn't cosmic-level anymore). The group of Balrogs drove her off. Feanor himself ended up holding his own for a long time against a larger group of Balrogs including Gothmog. So. . .yeah.

But we're actually getting sidetracked from a much bigger issue. The issue of who is the strongest Elf, Fingolfin or Feanor, is less important than the revisions of Fingolfin's and Morgoth's tiers relative to one-another. We cannot have Fingolfin listed as being higher-tier than Morgoth (purely physical). It simply makes no sense. Either Morgoth needs to be At Least 6-C or Fingolfin needs to be 7-A. Regardless, we must have Morgoth>Fingolfin. So if Fingolfin is 6-C, Morgoth must be High 6-C, and if Morgoth is High 7-A, Fingolfin must be 7-A. I think Morgoth being High 7-A makes the most sense given his feats, so Fingolfin should be 7-A. After deciding on that, the we can decide how we think Feanor scales relative to Fingolfin.

Edit: Just looked it up and Ungoliant was still well-fed from the Two Trees at the time the Balrogs drove her off. So why exactly do we consider her Tier 2-C at that point, if the Balrogs were able to overcome her? We would have to either vastly upgrade the Balrogs or vastly downgrade her in order to get that to make sense. That does not sseem to make much sense to me.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Azathoth. Until we get a calculation that places them higher, it seems safer to place Fingolfin and Morgoth at High 7-A.

 

[Aparajita]

Edit: Just looked it up and Ungoliant was still well-fed from the Two Trees at the time the Balrogs drove her off. So why exactly do we consider her Tier 2-C at that point, if the Balrogs were able to overcome her? We would have to either vastly upgrade the Balrogs or vastly downgrade her in order to get that to make sense. That does not sseem to make much sense to me.

Same reason why the God Emperor of Mankind can almost die to an Orc Warboss in one of the books, then turn around and fire a spear of psychic energy "More potent than a supernova" to kill his son.

Plot Induced Stupidity.

Each Fruit was a Sun, each leaf was a moon. There are thousands of fruit/leafs on a tree that size.

"The Two Trees of Valinor existed at a time when the only other source of light were the stars (which had been created for the Elves' benefit by Varda from the dews collected from the Two Trees)" -History of Eriol or Elfwine and the End of Tales


Also. When Ungoliant attacked Melkor was much later, not directly after devouring the trees. Orome and Tulkas attempted to chase them down, but Ungoliant's Webs were strong enough to stop Tulkas in his Spirit Form and powerful enough to prevent Orome's sight from seeing where they went.

Gathing up the fruit, they created the Sun and Moon, while Feanor created the Sims from the remains of the trees.

 

[Goodyfresh]

So others feel there's enough "breathing-room" in the level of High 7-A for both Morgoth and Fingolfin to be High 7-A while Morgoth is still significantly stronger than Fingolfin? Seems legit to me. That would make Morgoth (purely physical), Fingolfin, and Feanor (physically, his capabilities with magic and prep are undefined/unknown, which should possibly be noted in his profile at some point) all roughly the same tier, which does seem right. Or does anyone else think it might be advisable to make Fingolfin's tier At Least 7-A (not High 7-A) due to not really standing a chance against Morgoth in the long-run? Just to be clear on what the page-edits should be.

Debate over who's the physically stronger brother (Fingolfin or Feanor) can come some other time.

 

[Aparajita]

So others feel there's enough "breathing-room" in the level of High 7-A for both Morgoth and Fingolfin to be High 7-A for Morgoth to still be significantly stronger than Fingolfin? Seems legit to me. That would make Morgoth (purely physical), Fingolfin, and Feanor (physically, his capabilities with magic and prep are undefined/unknown) all roughly the same tier, which does seem right.

I thought High 6-C was accepted because the Calculation was accepted, unless that's no longer the case?

 

[Antvasima]

Can you link to the 6-C calculation?

 

[Aparajita]

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/calc-storage-crying-in-lammoth-the-silmarillion.18552/

 

[Antvasima]

8.24 Gigatons is Island level/regular 6-C, yes.

If we have previously used this calculation to scale from, I suppose that Morgoth should be 6-C, as should Fingolfin.

 

[Aparajita]

So then, Feanor should be "Likely 6-C", since he should be comparable to Fing.

Everything else should remain as they were, correct?

 

[Goodyfresh]

8.24 Gigatons is Island level/regular 6-C, yes.
If we have previously used this calculation to scale from, I suppose that Morgoth should be 6-C, as should Fingolfin.

Just read the calc. That's the absolute high-end number though, right? The low-end numbers were just large city-level to mountain-level. Is it good to scale everything to the absolute high-end of the range of a calc?

Personally I can totally believe Morgoth being 6-C, though. This does make it seem more believable.

So then, Feanor should be "Likely 6-C", since he should be comparable to Fing.
Everything else should remain as they were, correct?

Morgoth would have to be updated to 6-C since he's stronger than Fingolfin. Then Fingolfin could be a solid 6-C himself (but well below Morgoth's level) and Feanor "Likely 6-C."

 

[Antvasima]

@Aparajita I think so, yes.

 

[Goodyfresh]

@Aparajita I think so, yes.

But then we need to make Morgoth 6-C since he is definitely stronger than Fingolfin.

Although I'm still a tad bit concerned with the number we are using (for Morgoth's AP) being the absolute high-end of a calc with a humongous range between high-and-low ends.

Also, one more thing. Are we sure about Ungoliant's tier being 2-C upon consuming the Trees' sap and the Well of Varda? I mean, each fruit of the trees contains the energy of a star, but there just can't be 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 fruit on the trees (the approximate number of stars in our universe), can there?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Oh, and given their description, shouldn't the Trees' energy just be Tier 4-B to, at most, 4-A? Why is Ungoliant's tier stated as 2-C upon consuming them? Each fruit/flower is a star, yeah, sure, but there can't be 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 fruit/flowers one the trees, can there? Because that's how many stars are estimated to compose our own universe! Yeah.

Ungoliant drank the Wells of Varda, which contained all the dew ever taken from the trees, which also essentially contained all stars in the universe.

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe it would be best to ask a few calculation group members whether they prefer the low end or the high end of the calculation, before we make any changes.

Would somebody else be willing to ask them? I am very busy with the daily backlog. You can tell them that I would appreciate the help.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Maybe it would be besg to ask a few calculation group members whether they prefer the low end or the high end of the calculation, before we make any changes.
Would somebody else be willing to ask them? I am very busy with the daily backlog.

Sure.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Oh, and given their description, shouldn't the Trees' energy just be Tier 4-B to, at most, 4-A? Why is Ungoliant's tier stated as 2-C upon consuming them? Each fruit/flower is a star, yeah, sure, but there can't be 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 fruit/flowers one the trees, can there? Because that's how many stars are estimated to compose our own universe! Yeah.

Ungoliant drank the Wells of Varda, which contained all the dew ever taken from the trees, which also essentially contained all stars in the universe.

Hmmmm, yes okay, the wells contain orders of magnitude more energy than the trees (which should have around Tier 4-B to 4-A energy), but there's no statement I can find of them "essentially containing all stars in the universe" or the equivalent energy. At best wouldn't the energy in the Wells be something like galaxy-level to multi-galaxy-level?


If we're asking calc-members about the low-end vs. high-end, they should know about Morgoth's feat of smashing the ground hard enough to make lava well-up. That's Tier 7-A or higher right there, he can basically make new temporary volcanoes with his hammer-strikes. If we go with the low-end of the calc for his scream, then that means we'd have to stick with High 7-A as his tier due to the feats with his hammer.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hmmmm, yes okay, the wells contain orders of magnitude more energy than the trees (which should have around Tier 4-B to 4-A energy), but there's no statement I can find of them "essentially containing all stars in the universe" or the equivalent energy. At best wouldn't the energy in the Wells be something like galaxy-level to multi-galaxy-level?

Because all the stars come from the trees. The Wells harvest the dew from the trees. They also exist on a higher plane of reality.