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Plot Manipulation for Eru Ilúvatar

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<Plot Manipulation>
• Letter 192:

"Other Powers then take over: Story Writer (I don't mean myself), 'The ever present person who is never absent and never named".

That statement was written in Tolkien's Letters; 192. Stamped on Eru Ilúvatar's Profile at Tolkien Gateway. The letter refers to Ilúvatar. The letter will bring upscaling and the compromises stemming from it will be explained.

- First. For starters what Tolkien said, if anyone were to take the "Story" and take part as the Author would see reality as mere drama-Fiction. That is, the one who took it is Lord of the Ring Fiction Author. The person who is referred to as a "writer" means that he can do whatever he wants. This includes controlling what is fundamental in fiction, such as the background or story behind it in Space-time.

• Answers to questions such as "Where are the Metafictional Elements? Ruling everything and the story is meaningless if there are no Metaficional Elements."

To answer a problem like this, we first need to take a review of the first paragraph I wrote, especially in the Feats section. The statement that emerges from the letter describes Ilúvatar as the author and takes the story from the Author (Tolkien). So indirectly, if that happens, it means that Ilúvatar and Tolkien as Creators (their existence) are equal. Because logically. And basically, a writer who sees "the world" as a writable part of such a canvas can be defined as an Existence higher than the mere reality he controls (Which is superior to mere 4-Dimensional Space Continuum-Time in this context) . Speaking in Layman's Terms, only the Author (Author) who arranges such a thing prolly sees reality as mere fiction, and that can take a step into the Metaficional Element.

A simple analogy for that, for example, an author of a 3D creature (us) writes a story about a 2D creature that doesn't exist in our world and we consider meaningless. They have a lower dimensional axis than 3-Dimensional Beings. That is the reason why there is a difference regarding "Dimensions" and "Metaficional Elements".

—Results
Ilúvatar as a writer has the ability to organize everything and write it in a story, and the context will fall into the Metaficional Element. It qualifies for Ilúvatar's Manipulation Plot because they see it as literally "Meaningless". There is also a place that exists beyond everything and begins everything [1].

It's in a place that sees the world as only part of the story and qualifies for the Metaficional Element [2].


Do you agree or disagree

Write your reasons in the comments column.
 
Eru Ilúvatar having plot manipulation seems fine at a cursory glance. He is the one to give life to the Song of the Ainur, aka the entire plot of the Legendarium. Moreover, it is quite literally but thought to him

There is in-character stuff that limits this however, as Eru advocates free-will to the point he cannot/does not subvert it.

- Letter 153:

"Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences."

- Letter 211:

"The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them"

As an aside, Tolkien is a "Sub-creator" (as are is any author/writer, as well as maybe the Ainur in their origin), while Eru is the only "Creator" (in Tolkien's own work of course, not reality). Letter 153 has Tolkien's thoughts on what that means. Essentially sub-creators work within the framework and material of the creator,

We differ entirely about the nature of the relation of sub-creation to Creation. I should have said that liberation 'from the channels the creator is known to have used already' is the fundamental function of 'sub-creation', a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety, one of the ways in which indeed it is exhibited, as indeed I said in the Essay. I am not a metaphysician; but I should have thought it a curious metaphysic – there is not one but many, indeed potentially innumerable ones – that declared the channels known (in such a finite comer as we have any inkling of) to have been used, are the only possible ones, or efficacious, or possibly acceptable to and by Him!
 
Eru Ilúvatar having plot manipulation seems fine at a cursory glance. He is the one to give life to the Song of the Ainur, aka the entire plot of the Legendarium. Moreover, it is quite literally but thought to him

There is in-character stuff that limits this however, as Eru advocates free-will to the point he cannot/does not subvert it.

- Letter 153:

"Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences."

- Letter 211:

"The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them"

As an aside, Tolkien is a "Sub-creator" (as are is any author/writer, as well as maybe the Ainur in their origin), while Eru is the only "Creator" (in Tolkien's own work of course, not reality). Letter 153 has Tolkien's thoughts on what that means. Essentially sub-creators work within the framework and material of the creator,

We differ entirely about the nature of the relation of sub-creation to Creation. I should have said that liberation 'from the channels the creator is known to have used already' is the fundamental function of 'sub-creation', a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety, one of the ways in which indeed it is exhibited, as indeed I said in the Essay. I am not a metaphysician; but I should have thought it a curious metaphysic – there is not one but many, indeed potentially innumerable ones – that declared the channels known (in such a finite comer as we have any inkling of) to have been used, are the only possible ones, or efficacious, or possibly acceptable to and by Him!
However, Eru is an almighty God. Whatever is done will work as desired. And the feats that I also show Elemental Metaficional.
 
Eru Ilúvatar having plot manipulation seems fine at a cursory glance. He is the one to give life to the Song of the Ainur, aka the entire plot of the Legendarium. Moreover, it is quite literally but thought to him

There is in-character stuff that limits this however, as Eru advocates free-will to the point he cannot/does not subvert it.

- Letter 153:

"Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences."

- Letter 211:

"The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them"

As an aside, Tolkien is a "Sub-creator" (as are is any author/writer, as well as maybe the Ainur in their origin), while Eru is the only "Creator" (in Tolkien's own work of course, not reality). Letter 153 has Tolkien's thoughts on what that means. Essentially sub-creators work within the framework and material of the creator,

We differ entirely about the nature of the relation of sub-creation to Creation. I should have said that liberation 'from the channels the creator is known to have used already' is the fundamental function of 'sub-creation', a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety, one of the ways in which indeed it is exhibited, as indeed I said in the Essay. I am not a metaphysician; but I should have thought it a curious metaphysic – there is not one but many, indeed potentially innumerable ones – that declared the channels known (in such a finite comer as we have any inkling of) to have been used, are the only possible ones, or efficacious, or possibly acceptable to and by Him!
Even though "states of law" but Eru can change the story, which is where the story was made by Tolkien. And Tolkien was confused himself. I've seen in what letter, I forgot. Tolkien said that he wanted to take down Frodo but the plot changed instead. This is very strong for Eru to get Plot Manipulation. And also Eru was able to obtain Omnipresence, because of him "always present, never absent" is a very powerful statement.
 
However, Eru is an almighty God. Whatever is done will work as desired. And the feats that I also show Elemental Metaficional.
Well yes (within the context of the Legendarium), I never disputed that.

Even though "states of law" but Eru can change the story, which is where the story was made by Tolkien. And Tolkien was confused himself. I've seen in what letter, I forgot. Tolkien said that he wanted to take down Frodo but the plot changed instead. This is very strong for Eru to get Plot Manipulation. And also Eru was able to obtain Omnipresence, because of him "always present, never absent" is a very powerful statement.
Eru's interventions were physical things. Nudging Gollum, or the sinking of Númenor are physical interventions.

Regardless, I never disagreed with plot manipulation. Only noting that it would be limited by Eru's personality. He is the one to give life to the narrative, and upholds it as mere thought afterall.
 
Well yes (within the context of the Legendarium), I never disputed that.


Eru's interventions were physical things. Nudging Gollum, or the sinking of Númenor are physical interventions.

Regardless, I never disagreed with plot manipulation. Only noting that it would be limited by Eru's personality. He is the one to give life to the narrative, and upholds it as mere thought afterall.
But Eru was already outside the scope of the 4-D universe.
 
Also, permanently stop adding inappropriate categories/tags to our threads. I removed all of them except for "Lord of the Rings".
 
But Eru was already outside the scope of the 4-D universe.
Physical might have been the wrong word, but the point is, those specific interventions were not plot manipulation.

Causing Gollum to fall or sinking Númenor are not cases of plot manipulation.

That being said, I have already mentioned I'm fine with this, due to what was said earlier. Eru has been called author, gave life to a the narrative (when it was but song), etc.
 
Physical might have been the wrong word, but the point is, those specific interventions were not plot manipulation.

Causing Gollum to fall or sinking Númenor are not cases of plot manipulation.

That being said, I have already mentioned I'm fine with this, due to what was said earlier. Eru has been called author, gave life to a the narrative (when it was but song), etc.
And turns on the song, but literally Eru disagrees, with Tolkien wanting Frodo down, then Eru appears and changes the plot.
 
And turns on the song, but literally Eru disagrees, with Tolkien wanting Frodo down, then Eru appears and changes the plot.
You're taking the notion of Tolkien as a "sub-creator" too litteraly. Tolkien does not matter beyond the cosmology. He is not a character with real relevance within the Legendarium.

Regardless, Letter 192, the one I assume you refer to, mentions Eru's intervention, not the idea Eru somehow defied the plot outright ("took over" as in took over for Frodo, who had reached his limit). Moreover, Tolkien didn't want Frodo to die, it was a "third commentator" (as in an actual person) who reviled Frodo and also Tolkien.
 
You're taking the notion of Tolkien as a "sub-creator" too litteraly. Tolkien does not matter beyond the cosmology. He is not a character with real relevance within the Legendarium.

Regardless, Letter 192, the one I assume you refer to, mentions Eru's intervention, not the idea Eru somehow defied the plot outright ("took over" as in took over for Frodo, who had reached his limit). Moreover, Tolkien didn't want Frodo to die, it was a "third commentator" (as in an actual person) who reviled Frodo and also Tolkien.
But keeping that Yes core, Eru attained Elemental Metaficional, one of the Plot Manipulation conditions.
 
Well like I said, I'm fine with the addition by itself given the aforementioned reasons.

I'm just commenting on the specific justifications I find lacking.
But in your opinion, do you agree with my perspective regarding Eru's Plot Manipulation?
 
I'm unsure, but about some justifications if there is a debate but the proposed additions still look good to me. Not sure who I agree with more overall though.
 
More staff opinions would be handy I believe. Antavisma is currently on holiday, so I suppose it might be good to wait till he's had a good break.

I have nothing else to add. I agree with the proposal (although I'm not the msot knowledgeable about these kind of abilities), with any quibbles being noted already.
 
More staff opinions would be handy I believe. Antavisma is currently on holiday, so I suppose it might be good to wait till he's had a good break.

I have nothing else to add. I agree with the proposal (although I'm not the msot knowledgeable about these kind of abilities), with any quibbles being noted already.
Do you know an admin or staff who understand their abilities? If there is please let me know, in order to quickly solve this problem.
 
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