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Lord of the Rings Discussion Thread

Tyranno223 said:
Not sure.

Part of it's because I'm just not feeling very motivated recently. I've been going out (touching grass) doing stuff lately that happens to take up my energy. I'll probably get it done once I'm in an extended period where I just stay at home.
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Oh yeah, i can completely understand the lack of motivation, it happens sometimes to everyone. Hope you're doing well.
 
How high would the Silmarils and the One Ring possibly scale? (Just give their overall tiers and the reasons they scale there)
 
Hsharpe said:
How high would the Silmarils and the One Ring possibly scale? (Just give their overall tiers and the reasons they scale there)
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They've already been evaluated as justification for Carcharoth and Sauron.

Both are High 3-A but the One Ring varies depending on the user and the Silmarils aren't usually a tool used to enhance power.

The only person to outright use the Silmarils to enhance themself was Carcharoth who ate one and was constantly being burned from the inside by it. The jewels themselves are solidly High 3-A regardless for burning Morgoth with permanent scars, being capable of reviving the Two Trees when used together, and being the greatest creation of the Valar (including the material universe).

For the One Ring, Frodo for instance, upon becoming capable of using the Ring, was able to shake Mount Doom and I believe Mordor. However he would be utterly unable to resist Sauron in direct combat (and has his fingers bit off by Gollum). Gandalf (Grey or White is not stated) would be enhanced to have a 50/50 chance against Sauron (WotR) with the implication he is stronger but has the issue of using the One Ring against its creator. It's also implied Sauron himself could not use its full power at the LA due to still being weakened from his prime, although still strong enough to be uncontested beyond Elendil and Gil-galad, the strongest warriors of Good at the time. At its best, the One Ring possessed most of Sauron's spirit and power from his prime so High 3-A, but even "good" and "compatible" users can struggle to draw out tier 7 strength.
 
Tyranno223 said:
They've already been evaluated as justification for Carcharoth and Sauron.

Both are High 3-A but the One Ring varies depending on the user and the Silmarils aren't usually a tool used to enhance power.

The only person to outright use the Silmarils to enhance themself was Carcharoth who ate one and was constantly being burned from the inside by it. The jewels themselves are solidly High 3-A regardless for burning Morgoth with permanent scars, being capable of reviving the Two Trees when used together, and being the greatest creation of the Valar (including the material universe).

For the One Ring, Frodo for instance, upon becoming capable of using the Ring, was able to shake Mount Doom and I believe Mordor. However he would be utterly unable to resist Sauron in direct combat (and has his fingers bit off by Gollum). Gandalf (Grey or White is not stated) would be enhanced to have a 50/50 chance against Sauron (WotR) with the implication he is stronger but has the issue of using the One Ring against its creator. It's also implied Sauron himself could not use its full power at the LA due to still being weakened from his prime, although still strong enough to be uncontested beyond Elendil and Gil-galad, the strongest warriors of Good at the time. At its best, the One Ring possessed most of Sauron's spirit and power from his prime so High 3-A, but even "good" and "compatible" users can struggle to draw out tier 7 strength.
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Regarding Sauron shaking Mount Doom and Mordor, wouldn’t that make WotR Sauron Country Level, because of Mordor’s sheer size and amount of landmass? Or did he only shake Mount Doom?
 
Hsharpe said:
Regarding Sauron shaking Mount Doom and Mordor, wouldn’t that make WotR Sauron Country Level, because of Mordor’s sheer size and amount of landmass? Or did he only shake Mount Doom?
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LotR lacks calcs for a fair amount of stuff. Honestly he could be.
 
Does the one ring just enhance Sauron's original powers and stats or does it have any additional abilities other than the side effects like turning invisible?
 
Gasper said:
Does the one ring just enhance Sauron's original powers and stats or does it have any additional abilities other than the side effects like turning invisible?
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It enhanced his powers (invisibility isn’t something it's meant to give, that's usually only given to those unable to use it by making them shift into the Unseen world. Which is gonna be part of an NPI ability thing for High Elves, Nazgul, etc).

Essentially it buffs his power, enhances his mental abilities, slows the decay of the world (limited time manip I guess), and other powers the Rings of Power give.
 
Hsharpe said:
Regarding Sauron shaking Mount Doom and Mordor, wouldn’t that make WotR Sauron Country Level, because of Mordor’s sheer size and amount of landmass? Or did he only shake Mount Doom?
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For the quote.

"And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-du ˆr was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all shadows looked across the plain to the door that he had made; and the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and all the devices of his enemies were at last laid bare. Then his wrath blazed in consuming f lame, but his fear rose like a vast black smoke to choke him. For he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung. From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain." - Lord of the Rings: Return of the King, Book 6, Chapter 3, Mount Doom.


For if anyone wants to try calcing, I believe we use Atlas of Middle-Earth. It isn't 100% canon and we have canon statements that make some of it unusable, but it should be good enough.

There should be a pdf online somewhere.
 
Gasper said:
@Tyranno223
You said Sauron with the ring "slows the decay of the world", do you happen to have the quote for that?
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The One Ring doesn't do that specifically, it's what the Rings of Power were made for.

It's part of why time was so funky in Lothlorien (for some versions).

Rings of Power (Amazon) were somewhat accurate about this (albeit sped up by a million) in that the Elven Realms and Elves themselves were withering as time went on. The Rings preserved the time in which the Elves were thriving for as long as they had power.

Of course, only 2 were actually used for this purpose in Rivendell and Lothlorien.

Can't look up quotes right now, I'm out.
 
"The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor – thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible." - Letter 131.
 
Tyranno223 said:
"The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor – thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible." - Letter 131.
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Thanks
 
Might be able to resolve some of the High 3-A funkiness with the Elves. There seems to be enough stuff around to imply that Middle-Earth High Elves were a fair bit weaker in the Third Age.

It would allow Glorfindel Galadriel to have a High 3-A key and stuff and fix a few other issues.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Might be able to resolve some of the High 3-A funkiness with the Elves. There seems to be enough stuff around to imply that Middle-Earth High Elves were a fair bit weaker in the Third Age.

It would allow Glorfindel Galadriel to have a High 3-A key and stuff and fix a few other issues.
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Sounds cool to me. But do you think the Witch-king should get High 3-A at one point? Because I heard somewhere he can tap into the Morgoth element, which reached throughout all Arda, and possibly Eä as well.
 
Hsharpe said:
Sounds cool to me. But do you think the Witch-king should get High 3-A at one point? Because I heard somewhere he can tap into the Morgoth element, which reached throughout all Arda, and possibly Eä as well.
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Anyone evil and able + knowledgeable enough can tap into the Morgoth element, it permeats Arda (and possibly more depending on version).

Tapping into the totality is what you theoretically need for a higher rating and not even Sauron does that.
 
Rutæhh said:
why do the Nazgul have so much aura? they would have loved destroy lonely
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Erebor? Maybe. It wasn't on their to do list though and Dwarves have their own magics of a kind... though I'm not sure any remain who remember it.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Yeah, hoping it focuses on the characters actually hunting Gollum. Aragorn, Gandalf, the Woodland Elves, etc. I like Gollum but the Video Game has convinced me that making a thing focused on the bugger is... meh.
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Me too.
That Gollum game was ruff to say the least 💀
 
Rutæhh said:
why cant this be Invulnerability for the soul? is there a thread I can read up on where these revisions took place?
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? Soul are "invulnerable" within the context of the Legendarium. You can't have absolute immunity to anything on this wiki (until Ultima's tier 0 changes get implemented I guess)
 
Tyranno223 said:
Well LotR qualifies as Tier 1-A for three (maybe more) reasons:
  1. Tolkien uses the same language to differentiate Eru's and the Ainur's level of existence to Eä (the universe) as he does to differentiate between reality and mythology
  2. Eru holds all of Eä as mere thought, being able to maintain it in his mind. To Him, it is on the same level as fiction is, as an entire space-time is but merely thought in His mind (indeed, the language is used describes Eä as but one finite fictional sub-creation under Eru/God's infinite creative potential. Meanwhile Tolkien states both space and time in Eä being limitlessly extensive, aka infinite. In essence a 4-D Space-Time is finite and fractional compared to Eru)
  3. Eru is described as an author, with his interventions being that of an Author, as is his role, level of existence, etc.
The Ainur qualify for this for a few simple reasons.
  1. Eru regards them as "real" existences he can interact with compared to Eä which is but fiction to him
  2. They shake the Timeless Halls and Void with their Music, they can thus affect a realm of existence that is "primary" to Eä which is "secondary". The difference being between that of fiction and mythology to Tolkien
  3. They are sub-creators that inhabit a similar cosmological position to authors like Tolkien (within cosmology, Tolkien exists as the sub-creative force to the Legendarium).
Tier 0 is a confusing topic for me but from the looks of it, interaction with tier 0 isn't necessarily impossible. God from Dante's Work is considered tier 0 in Ultima's new system, and they have interaction with others to an extent. Eru is unchanging, unbound by hierarchy, is indivisible from himself, and is the singular omnipotent of the Legendarium.

I don't know 100% though, but Ultima at least believes Eru is Tier 0. This might mean the Ainur upscale in some way (not Tier 0 obvs), but that's another topic and I'm no tier 1 expert.
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Question, do you have any of the quotes for those points? Cuz I also plan on using them for debates as well (see the Return of the Thread Revision Thread for my first question about this)
 
Hsharpe said:
Question, do you have any of the quotes for those points? Cuz I also plan on using them for debates as well (see the Return of the Thread Revision Thread for my first question about this)
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The R>F stuff is on profile already. They're linked under Eru, Manwë, Varda, and Morgoth I believe.

Tier 0 is a bit beyond me in Ultima's upcoming new standard. Still don't have a solid grasp of what qualifies although Ultima showed up in this thread earlier to say a line qualified as evidence for High 1-A+.

General Powers and Abilities for the Ainur have their own page on wiki. My current revisions revolve around individual abilities (although I may need to do a universal one for Elves first).

Do remember that the new R>F and Tier 0 standards aren't implemented yet and any revision using them right now won't go through.
 
On the Gandalf > Andúril > Sauron > Gandalf issue, I've got a few ideas.


One thing is that it's mentioned that Gandalf the White can briefly manifest as a "guardian angel" in power at dire moments in reference to his power as a Maia. This could have him briefly be stronger than LA Sauron for short bursts but isn't 100% compatible with Gandalf's statement that Third Age Sauron is above him (not outright incompatible since this would be a brief thing).


Another is turning Gandalf into a stonewall with possibly High 3-A durability or with a form of Invincibility up to that level (he was brought back by Eru with increased power and sanctity).

The Witch-King or Sauron wouldn't scale to this theoretical since the former gets his power from the latter and the latter is far weaker than a state where he was already vulnerable to the sword.
 
Would Fëanor potentially have Fire Manipulation due to not only being called ‘The Spirit of Fire’ but also incinerating his body upon his death? And would Fingolfin also have Ice Manipulation for Ringil being able to emit ice?
 
Hsharpe said:
Would Fëanor potentially have Fire Manipulation due to not only being called ‘The Spirit of Fire’ but also incinerating his body upon his death? And would Fingolfin also have Ice Manipulation for Ringil being able to emit ice?
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Perhaps? I forget the exact context and content.

Fëanor probably would at least but that would be with his death.
 
Question regarding the Ringwraiths:

Can they resurrect, whether on their own or with Sauron making new bodies for them?
 
Hsharpe said:
Question regarding the Ringwraiths:

Can they resurrect, whether on their own or with Sauron making new bodies for them?
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Kinda? From my current understanding, the Nazgul do not naturally have a body outside the Unseen World. The robes give them form and shape to allow them to interact with the physical. Without it they can't do too much.

In that sense, yes Sauron makes their physical body for them.
 
Hsharpe said:
Is there quotes for the Nigh-Omniscience of the Ainur?
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It's just a general thing. They sung Fate into existence and were shown the majority of the "Drama" outside of what exactly the Children would do.

There is more to it but I lack the time right now.

First chapter of the Silmarillion.
 
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