Lord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread

[Tyranno223]

Third Thread! Love a trilogy. Hopefully gonna cap off the stat revisions for some time with a "fun" reprisal.

Previous thread here. OG thread here.

Discussion thread here.

 

[Tyranno223]

The Nazgul

The current accepted scaling for the Nazgul simply downscales them from the Balrog/Gandalf the Grey level characters at Low 7-B, possibly 7-A. Whilst I still believe this rating to be accurate to an extent, it would be improper to ignore the fact that there is contradictory information regarding the placement of the Nazgul in the scaling chain.

For one, the Letters of Tolkien state:

• “It is based on a misconception of the Black Riders throughout, which I beg Z to reconsider. Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness.” (Letter 210)
  • Note: “No great physical power” can also mean they have no particular extra advantage. Hence this is not an absolute contradiction, but still noteworthy
  • They are, at minimum, strong warriors for the Tolkien Legendarium - "The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight* might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades." (Letter 246)

By implying the Nazgul are merely comparable to relatively average warriors, this is a relative lowball, but it isn’t beyond reason as we get very few scenes of the Nazgul in combat, with all their fights being either in the background or recounted by other characters.

That being said, what we do have recounted regarding the Nazgul does invoke “Death of the Author” to a fair degree, as we know they are collectively a genuine threat to the likes of Gandalf and Glorfindel

• "On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not withstand all the Nine at once." - Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two: Many Meetings
• “I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree – and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Suˆl. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.” - Gandalf’s narration - Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two: The Council of Elrond
  • Note: The scaling between Gandalf and Glorfindel being nebulous aside, Gandalf was in a defensive position, giving him an advantage in contrast to the other scenario. In the day, when not in a defensive position, he preferred to continue fleeing rather than finishing off 4 Nazgul
    • “‘At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more. It was impossible to find you, Frodo, in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels. So I had to trust to Aragorn. But I hoped to draw some of them off, and yet reach Rivendell ahead of you and send out help. Four Riders did indeed follow me, but they turned back after a while and made for the Ford, it seems. That helped a little, for there were only five, not nine, when your camp was attacked.” - Gandalf’s narration - Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two: The Council of Elrond
    • Especially notable as these four did not include the Witch-King, who goes on to attack Weathertop
• "Two days after Gandalf had departed from Orthanc, the Lord of Morgul halted before the Gate of Isengard. Then Saruman, already filled with wrath and fear by the escape of Gandalf, perceived the peril of standing between enemies, a known traitor to both. His dread was great, for his hope of deceiving Sauron, or at the least of receiving his favour in victory, was utterly lost. Now either he himself must gain the Ring or come to ruin and torment. But he was wary and cunning still, and he had ordered Isengard against just such an evil chance. The Circle of Isengard was too strong for even the Lord of Morgul and his company to assail without great force of war. Therefore to his challenge and demands he received only the answer of the voice of Saruman, that spoke by some art as though it came from the Gate itself." - Unfinished Tales: IV: THE HUNT FOR THE RING
  • Note, it is the Lord of Morgul AND his company that are being considered, not just the Witch-King (who is merely the strongest of their number right now, not at his RotK levels)

They are consistently portrayed as a threat to the likes of Gandalf the Grey or even Saruman the White while in a group, and while the Witch-King is stronger than the rest of them, he isn’t overly powerful yet as he has not yet

• “The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. ” - Letter 210

Of course, this does mean they downscale by a significant margin. Moreover, LotR has repeatedly portrayed overwhelmingly powerful characters being defeated by great numbers in the past (Finrod, who could contest Sauron in a magical duel, nearly died to an overwhelming number of orcs, albeit certain orcs in that age were actually Maiar in disguise).

However, outside of this one WoG statement, there isn’t any reason to really claim they shouldn’t downscale. They have no real anti-feats, and are only ever beaten by higher tier characters (the flood for instance was made by the power of Elrond, who bore Vilya, the strongest of the Three Rings. Vilya is thus superior to Nenya, which is part of what makes Lothlorien so unassailable)

• “Elrond wore a mantle of grey and had a star upon his forehead, and a silver harp was in his hand, and upon his finger was a ring of gold with a great blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the Three.” - Return of the King: Book Six: The Grey Havens
• “‘Elrond commanded it,’ answered Gandalf. ‘The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released. If I may say so, I added a few touches of my own: you may not have noticed, but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders; and there were many rolling and grinding boulders.” - Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two: Many Meeting
  • Note: Elvish realms that are stated to be under someone's "power" in this literal manner seem to refer to the Elvish Rings, like with Lothlorien, as seen below
• “But the Lord of Morgul, seeing no better counsel, determined still to seek northward, hoping maybe to come upon Gollum as well as to discover the Shire. That this would prove to be not far from the hated land of Lórien seemed to him not unlikely, if it was not indeed within the fences of Galadriel. But the power of the White Ring he would not defy, nor enter yet into Lórien. ” - Unfinished Tales: IV: THE HUNT FOR THE RING
• “Galadriel counselled him that the Three Rings of the Elves should be hidden, never used, and dispersed, far from Eregion where Sauron believed them to be. It was at that time that she received Nenya, the White Ring, from Celebrimbor, and by its power the realm of Lórinand was strengthened and made beautiful” - Unfinished Tales: IV: THE HISTORY OF GALADRIEL AND CELEBORN

In this circumstance, I thus advocate that the Nazgul should be something like “9-B, at most Low 7-B to 7-A”

This allows us to cover both the low-ends and higher-ends together, much as we do for the likes of Gothmog (Balrog). The low ends being acceptable due to both WoG and instances of LotR characters being threatened by logically far inferior foes. The higher ends being acceptable due to the lack of real anti-feats and their repeated ability to threaten Gandalf the Grey tier fighters in groups as small as four (without the Witch-King). The “at most” being preferable as they downscale by an unknown amount.

The Witch-King is the sole exception, being the only individual to survive the flood of Elrond’s power, whose Ring is superior to the White Ring (Nenya, which the Witch-King believed to be beyond his power)

• “Three of the black horses had been found at once drowned in the flooded Ford. On the rocks of the rapids below it searchers discovered the bodies of five more, and also a long black cloak, slashed and tattered. Of the Black Riders no other trace was to be seen, and nowhere was their presence to be felt. It seemed that they had vanished from the North. ‘Eight out of the Nine are accounted for at least,’ said Gandalf. ‘It is rash to be too sure, yet I think that we may hope now that the Ringwraiths were scattered, and have been obliged to return as best they could to their Master in Mordor, empty and shapeless.” - Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two: The Ring Goes South
  • Only one survived without their physical body destroyed. It's pretty obvious who this is.
  • Note: Survived, not overcame.
  • It’s also notably emphasised that he’s the main threat to Saruman during their encounter.

Numenorean Blessings

To begin with, we should cover how the Numenorean blessings work. Tolkien, as always, is never the most specific, but we do get a general idea of how the blessings of Numenor work.

They essentially provide an increased lifespan and greater physical attributes (health, strength, precision, height, etc).

• “The host of Gil-galad and Elendil had the victory, for the might of the Elves was still great in those days, and the Númenóreans were strong and tall, and terrible in their wrath.” - Silmarillion: OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE
  • Notable as the strength of the Numenorean is comparable to Noldor (High Elven) might - these are the remaining Elves who fought in the First Age against Balrogs and Dragons
• “In the Sea the strong men took their greatest delight: in swimming or in diving; or in small craft for contests of speed in rowing and sailing. The hardiest of the people were engaged in fishing: fish were abundant, and at all times one of the chief sources of food for Númenor.” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Three: XI Lives of the Numenoreans
• “The Númenórean men, being tall and powerful, could shoot with speed and accuracy upon foot from great long bows, whose shafts would carry to great distance (some 600 yards or more), and at lesser range were of great penetration.” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Three: XIII Of the Land and Beasts of Numenor
• “The Númenóreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of Men; their full-grown men were commonly 7 ft. tall, especially in the royal and noble houses.” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: VI Description of the Characters
• "So great was the power and splendour of the Númenóreans in the noontide of their realm that the servants of Sauron would not withstand them, and hoping to accomplish by cunning what he could not achieve by force, he left Middle-earth for a while and went to Númenor as a hostage of Tar-Calion the King." - Silmarillion: OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE
  • "Ring-wraiths The slaves of the Nine Rings of Men and chief servants ofSauron; also called Nazgûl and Úlairi." - The Silmarillion: Index
  • This does imply even the Witch-King could not overcome them, which is notable as it will be detailed below that he is an in-verse army killer.

The waning of the blessings sees a decrease in these attributes

• “For the blood of the Númenóreans became much mingled with that of other men, and their power and wisdom was diminished, and their life-span was shortened, and the watch upon Mordor slumbered.” - Silmarillion: OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE
  • Fun fact, it may sound like eugenics, but virtue matters more than “mingling” in other notes. Hence why the decline is more pronounced elsewhere than Gondor or Arnor
• “The dwindling of the Dúnedain was not a normal tendency, shared by peoples whose proper home was Middle-earth; but due to the loss of their ancient land far in the West, nearest of all mortal lands to “The Undying Realm”. In both Arnor and Gondor, apart from mixture of race, the Númenóreans showed a dwindling of height and longevity in Middle-earth that became more marked as the Third Age passed.” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: VI Description of the Characters

Lifespan is the most obvious way of measuring the degree of the decline in characters, and can thus be used to measure the extent to which blessings remain. In this way, graphs such as those listed here are handy.

The potency of blessings is on full show throughout the trilogy, with Boromir and Aragorn being the strongest of the Fellowship in Legolas’ eyes (being unaware of Gandalf’s true nature), Faramir being one of the greatest captains of Gondor, and the only three unscathed fighters of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields/Siege of Minas Tirith being of Numenorean descent:

• “Aragorn and Eomer ´ and Imrahil rode back towards the Gate of the City, and they were now weary beyond joy or sorrow. These three were unscathed, for such was their fortune and the skill and might of their arms, and few indeed had dared to abide them or look on their faces in the hour of their wrath.” - Return of the King: Book Five: The Battle of Pelennor Fields
  • Eomer is actually of Numenorean descent. Quite high Numenorean descent, as the House of Hurin has ties to the Royal Line through the Line of Anarion, which intermarried with the Stewards
    • “Denethor has given long thought to the rhyme and to the words Isildur’s Bane, since Boromir went away. ‘He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best.” Return of the King: Book Five: Minas Tirith
    • “This “chance”, I said, was to be seen in the fact that Húrin the First Steward (from whom Denethor was directly descended) must have been a kinsman of King Minardil” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: V Beards (so much detail on everything)

Boromir (not that one!)
Boromir the Steward, the one the Boromir of the Fellowship is named after, is described in the Appendix as a captain who overturned the conquest of Ithilien, a conquest presumably lead by the Nazgul considering the following line

“Boromir son of Denethor (after whom Boromir of the Nine Walkers was later named) defeated them and regained Ithilien; but Osgiliath was finally ruined, and its great stone-bridge was broken. No people dwelt there afterwards. Boromir was a great captain, and even the Witch-king feared him.” - Lord of the Rings: Appendix A

The Witch-King is outright stated to fear Boromir, with it being heavily implied that there was a fight between the two which Boromir survived, albeit with a cursed wound that would shorten his life.

• “...but he received a Morgul-wound in that war which shortened his days, and he became shrunken with pain and died twelve years after his father…”
• Morgul wounds refer to the wounds caused by the Morgul blades, aka the weapons carried by the Nazgul. That Boromir survived an encounter with the Witch-King and caused the wraith to fear him has obvious implications.

Now, the Witch-King fearing him may refer to his skill as a captain alone, but this ignores both the aforementioned signs of a duel between them, and the Witch-King’s character.

Fears of the Witch-King

The Witch-King is only ever stated to fear something when he feels his life (or whatever counts as life for an undead puppet king) is in danger.

He is one of the few characters in LotR to emerge out of a military defeat with no fear for the enemy army, almost single-handedly overturning

• “Then the Witch-king, with all that he could gather from the wreck, fled northwards, seeking his own land of Angmar. Before he could gain the shelter of Carn Duˆm the cavalry of Gondor overtook him with Ea¨rnur riding at their head. At the same time a force under Glorfindel the Elf-lord came up out of Rivendell. Then so utterly was Angmar defeated that not a man nor an orc of that realm remained west of the Mountains. ‘But it is said that when all was lost suddenly the Witch-king himself appeared, black-robed and black-masked upon a black horse.” - Lord of the Rings: Appendix A
• “ When the Enemy returned our folk were driven from Ithilien, our fair domain east of the River, though we kept a foothold there and strength of arms. But this very year, in the days of June, sudden war came upon us out of Mordor, and we were swept away. We were outnumbered, for Mordor has allied itself with the Easterlings and the cruel Haradrim; but it was not by numbers that we were defeated. A power was there that we have not felt before. ‘Some said that it could be seen, like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon. Wherever he came a madness filled our foes, but fear fell on our boldest, so that horse and man gave way and fled. Only a remnant of our eastern force came back, destroying the last bridge that still stood amid the ruins of Osgiliath.” - Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two: The Council of Elrond
  • Narration by Boromir. If it isn’t clear, he is describing the coming of the Nazgul
• He does not fear military defeat, and has single handedly, or with his fellow Nazgul alone, overcome the armies of Gondor repeatedly.
• He only ever shows fear when he personally feels endangered.
  • “‘Then the Witch-king laughed, and none that heard it ever forgot the horror of that cry. But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-king turned to flight and passed into the shadows. For night came down on the battlefield, and he was lost, and none saw whither he went…” - Lord of the Rings: Appendix A
    • Flies from Glorfindel, an Elf-Lord on par with the Maiar.
  • “...the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself…” - The lord of the rings : a reader's companion: Hunt for the Ring
    • Note: The text itself is not written by either Tolkien, however, the specific passages I am using are from manuscripts made by J.R.R. Tolkien that within the text. They are extra manuscripts which Christopher did not get to publish before his death.
  • “Aragorn…who seems to be a great power…Bearer(Frodo)...dared to strike him with an enchanted sword made by his enemies long ago for his destruction…he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgul...he withdrew and hid for a while, out of fear and doubt of Aragorn and especially of Frodo” - The lord of the rings : a reader's companion: Hunt for the Ring
    • Note: His thoughts on Frodo are semi-misconceptions, but the fundamental point is that he believes Frodo to be some super powerful small fella who carries the Ring, despite Aragorn being the more obviously powerful fella. Him surviving and seemingly beating a barrow-wight, carrying an anti-Nazgul blade, and being “in league with the High Elves” makes the Witch-King fear for his life.
  • “‘Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!’ Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. ‘But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn ´ I am, E´ omund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.’ The winged creature screamed at her, but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt.” Return of the King: Book Five: The Battle of Pelennor Fields
    • Macbeth-analogue. He begins to feel doubt once he realises the prophecy of his end is coming to fulfilment

Essentially, the Witch-King only fears things that he believes to be stronger than, comparable to, or capable of harming him. He has no reason to fear a simple “great captain” when he can overturn armies on his own. Hence, Boromir should be comparable to him. We also have a notable quote stating he never died from Eowyn (and Merry who did the leg-work with that enchanted blade), thus making it clear you don't need to be capable of killing him to make him scared

• "The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight* The Witch-king had been reduced to impotence." - Letter 246
• Moreover, as discussed in the last thread, the Witch-King is not truly immune to weapons. Weapons that pierce him break and harm the wielder, but they can still cut through him and theoretically destroy his body (as we see with other Nazgul). Moreover, this trait only applies to the Witch-King, as we have the quote is specific. Thus you can still harm him fine.
• Later, it will also be noted that the Numenoreans overcame the servants of Sauron, likely including the Nine. It would be simple fair to assume you can temporarily neutralise the Witch-King by damaging his body enough, much like with the other Nazgul. You just need to be strong enough and not be overcome by your weapon breaking.

Aragorn
Now, to the main meat of this topic. Aragorn upscales (again, apologies if the tone is abrasive, I was admittedly quite exhausted during this exchange) from every warrior in the Trilogy that is not of a higher tier, like Gandalf or Glorfindel, as pointed out in the prior thread, he is untouched, undefeated, and only stumbles when exhausted by the length of a battle. At minimum, he is “At least 9-B.”

As a Numenorean/Dunedan, he lived to 210 years of age. This is far in excess of any Numenorean/Dunedan since the 28th King of Gondor, Umbardacil, and the fifth King of Arthedain, Celebrindor. Both died nearly 2000 years prior to Aragorn’s birth, and the blessings of Numenor did not recover between this time for any Dunedan/Numenorean prior.

• “The dwindling of the Dúnedain was not a normal tendency, shared by peoples whose proper home was Middle-earth; but due to the loss of their ancient land far in the West, nearest of all mortal lands to “The Undying Realm”. In both Arnor and Gondor, apart from mixture of race, the Númenóreans showed a dwindling of height and longevity in Middle-earth that became more marked as the Third Age passed” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: VI Description of the Characters
• “This mingling did not at first hasten the waning of the Du´nedain, as had been feared; but the waning still proceeded, little by little, as it had before. For no doubt it was due above all to Middle-earth itself, and to the slow withdrawing of the gifts of the Nu´meno´reans after the downfall of the Land of the Star. Eldacar lived to his two hundred and thirty-fifth year, and was king for fifty-eight years, of which ten were spent in exile.” - Lord of the Rings: Appendix A
  • As the Blessed Isle is destroyed, so too do the blessings withdraw

Aragorn is the sole reversal of this decline (along with the immediate heirs that follow him for a time), having been granted a special clemency

• “The rate of the Half-elven that chose to join the Quendi was evidently in Middle-earth 100 : 1. (For those who joined Men a special rate of growth was established, approximately 3 : 1, though this diminished, but was in Aragorn almost restored: he was 5 : 2).” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part One: IX TIME-SCALES AND RATES OF GROWTH
• “The life of the Númenóreans before their fall (the 2nd fall of Man?) was thus not so much a special gift as a restoration of what should have been the common inheritance of Men, [to live] for 200–300 years. Aragorn claimed to be the last of the Númenóreans.” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: X NOTES ON ÓRË
  • “When Aragorn “resigned life” in 4A 120 he thus resigned 24 years of life. He had lived 210 years and was already within his “decline”. - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part One: ”XVIII ELVISH AGES & NÚMENÓREAN
  • Note: This is contradicted somewhat later with Numenorean lifespan reaching excess of 400 years. As mentioned earlier, still superior to the past 2000 years of Dunedain/Numenoreans
    • “Thus, if a Númenórean reached the end of vigour at about 400 years, he would then pass quickly, in about ten years, from health and vigour of mind to decrepitude and senility.” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Three: XI Lives of the Numenoreans
• “Nay, lady, I am the last of the Nu´meno´reans and the latest King of the Elder Days; and to me has been given not only a span thrice that of Men of Middle-earth, but also the grace to go at my will, and give back the gift. Now, therefore, I will sleep.” - Lord of the Rings: Appendix A

As such, Aragorn should have a greater share of the blessings of Numenor than any other before him for the past 2000 years, with the Stewards never surpassing 150 years in recorded history.

• Denethor I, Boromir’s immediate predecessor, lived till 102 in comparison.

Hence, he should be superior to all other Dunedain including Boromir the Steward or the majority of the Kings of Arthedain who warred with the Witch-King for hundreds of years

• Remember, the Witch-King can single-handedly destroy Gondorian armies, which were superior to those of Arthedain. Some Arnorians must have been capable of matching him to prevent this, with the Line of Kings being the most potent. But this admittedly veers into speculation.
• “Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals', not even Aragorn.” - Letter 246
  • Aragorn is the pinnacle of mortals during the Third Age for Tolkien, considering he is the one Tolkien compares to Sauron. - “Of ‘mortals’, not even Aragorn.”
• For a point of comparison, Boromir (of the Fellowship this time), a fellow Dunedan/Numenorean, is considered a lesser one despite being from one of the purer lines - “Aragorn, his direct descendant, in spite of the many intervening generations, must still have been a very tall and strong man with a great stride; he was probably at least 6 ft. 6. Boromir, of high Númenórean lineage, would not be much shorter: say 6 ft. 4" - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: VI Description of the Characters - (Also see lifespans of the Stewards compared to the Chieftains)

Aragorn also has his own points to fall back on.

For one, let us return to the “great power” line from the last time this discussion came up. The last time this discussion arose, one point of contention is that this is merely in contrast to his position as a ranger. To an extent that’s true, but with the entire segment (page 180) being taken into consideration, it’s clear that the Witch-King fears Aragorn.

• “The camp is attacked at night by [five Riders]; but they are driven off by Aragorn; and withdraw after wounding Frodo. [The Witch-king] now knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently ‘only a Ranger…” - The lord of the rings : a reader's companion: Hunt for the Ring - line in question, which is followed by
• “Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron’s will was the stronger” - Again, Aragorn was feared by the Witch-King, who only really fears Sauron and those who can challenge him. Fodder is pointedly useless against him.
  • Frodo isn’t an anti-feat. The Witch-King is misconstruing him (as mentioned above) as a High-Elven champion who has overpowered Barrow-Wights while also carrying an anti-Wraith blade. Since Frodo has the Ring, he also assumes he must be stronger than Aragorn as why else would he have it?
    • “Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it— save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgil. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.”
    • None of this is true yet, minus the Elbereth part and the enchanted blade. Witch-King is going big-brain right now

Moreover, we know the Witch-King has overcome entire armies of “fodder” before, and we see this again at Sarn Ford (he is consistently one of the few characters not to be overcome by numbers)

• “Night was waning on the twenty-second day of September when drawing together again they came to Sarn Ford and the southernmost borders of the Shire. They found them guarded for the Rangers barred their way. But this was a task beyond the power of the Dúnedain... Some fled northward, hoping to bear news to Aragorn, but they were pursued and slain or driven away into the wild. Some still dared to bar the ford, and held it while day lasted, but at night the Lord of Morgul swept them away, and the Black Riders passed into the Shire...”
• As we see how relatively useless the Dunedain are (despite their high heritage), it makes the statement that Aragorn’s presence could have turned the tied more significant - “They found them guarded for the Rangers barred their way. But this was a task beyond the power of the Dúnedain; and maybe it would still have proved a even if their captain, Aragorn, had been with them.”
  • Note: While it’s not guaranteed or even a good chance, Aragorn’s presence makes it possible for the rangers to win, whereas canonically the Witch-King single handedly defeats the entire group.

We also have this anti-feat discussion from the last thread, where it’s posited Aragorn cannot being comparable to the Witch-King as he is absolutely below a Balrog (who the Witch-King downscales from to a notable degree)

“‘We cannot leave you to hold the door alone!’ said Aragorn. ‘Do as I say!’ said Gandalf fiercely. ‘Swords are no more use here. Go!’” - Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two: The Bridge of Khazad-Dum

• This statement is fundamentally false. Anduril should have been able to carve through Durin’s Bane either way, and Gandalf isn’t actually omniscient (despite being wise).
  • Moreover, this is before Gandalf knows a Balrog is here.
  • “‘A Balrog,’ muttered Gandalf. ‘Now I understand.’ He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. ‘What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.’” - this line comes at the Bridge, whereas the previous line is when Gandalf was holding the door from Balin’s tomb
  • It’s also worth noting that Gandalf is the only one with any known fire/heat resistance. It would be imprudent to assume Aragorn could withstand even being near a Balrog, when other fire spirits have scorched even fellow Maiar (like Arien to Tilion, or Durin’s Bane to Gandalf)
• We do not know how much Aragorn (and to a lesser extent Boromir) could have affected the Balrog. In fact, the battle (temporarily) ends just before they can enter the fray.
  • “With a bound the Balrog leaped full upon the bridge. Its whip whirled and hissed. ‘He cannot stand alone!’ cried Aragorn suddenly and ran back along the bridge. ‘Elendil!’ he shouted. ‘I am with you, Gandalf!’ ‘Gondor!’ cried Boromir and leaped after him.” - Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two: The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
  • NOTE: I am not saying they equal the Balrog (definitely not Boromir, who has clear limits), just that there is no anti-feat here as they are never compared. In theory Anduril should carve up the Balrog, but Aragorn might just burn to a crisp upon nearing the Balrog (Gil-Galad is one shot by fire from Sauron for instance, despite being comparable)

As noted in the last thread, Aragorn also genuinely does not have any anti-feats of being harmed by orc characters or the like. He has in fact jumped into the middle of entire orc groups. His dodging of arrows is the one possible example, but he never actually gets hit by them (and was wearing chainmail anyway, so was it necessary either way? Armour exists for a reason), and fantasy often overvalues piercing damage.

Nazgul conclusion:

“9-B, at most Low 7-B to 7-A”

• As noted above, it takes 4 Nazgul to threaten Gandalf the Grey enough for him to choose fleeing instead of fighting back. He only took on all Nine from a defensive position.
• However, we also have WoG statements putting them at above average alone.
• This is a compromise of both, while also an acknowledgment of their significant downscaling from characters in said higher tiers. "At most" feels more appropriate as it is a notable degree of downscaling

Aragorn conclusion:

• High-end: “Low 7-B, possibly 7-A”
  • Clear cut direct scaling
• Middle-end/Compromise: “At least 9-B, possibly Low 7-B to 7-A” - alternatively “At least 9-B, at most Low 7-B to 7-A”
  • If direct scaling is too much, it is possible to account for both ends in this manner.
• Low-end: “At least 9-B”
  • He is immensely above every other non-Gandalf tier fighter in the Trilogy

For clarity

Nazgul (high-end) << Aragorn (high end) =< Witch-King << Gandalf the Grey/Balrog

 

[Antvasima]

I think that your reasoning seems sensible above, but what statistics do you personally suggest exactly?

Also, which members who participated in our preceding LOTR discussion thread should I call for here?

 

[Tyranno223]

I think that your reasoning seems sensible above, but what statistics do you personally suggest exactly?

I personally advocate the high-end for Aragorn as I personally feel like there's enough evidence to put him as comparable to the Witch-King via scaling.

However, I am willing to concede on the compromise statistics if there's too much skepticism around scaling Aragorn to the Nazgul/Witch-King (First two books).

Also, which members who participated in our preceding LOTR discussion thread should I call for here?

• Experiment12
• Hellbeast
• NaturalDestroyer
• TheMerchant66
• Dinamic8000

Armorchompy has also been very helpful with helping me brainstorm a few ideas.

 

[Experiment12]

The Nazgul

The current accepted scaling for the Nazgul simply downscales them from the Balrog/Gandalf the Grey level characters at Low 7-B, possibly 7-A. Whilst I still believe this rating to be accurate to an extent, it would be improper to ignore the fact that there is contradictory information regarding the placement of the Nazgul in the scaling chain.

For one, the Letters of Tolkien state:

• “It is based on a misconception of the Black Riders throughout, which I beg Z to reconsider. Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness.” (Letter 210)
  • Note: “No great physical power” can also mean they have no particular extra advantage. Hence this is not an absolute contradiction, but still noteworthy
  • They are, at minimum, strong warriors for the Tolkien Legendarium - "The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight* might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades." (Letter 246)

By implying the Nazgul are merely comparable to relatively average warriors, this is a relative lowball, but it isn’t beyond reason as we get very few scenes of the Nazgul in combat, with all their fights being either in the background or recounted by other characters.

That being said, what we do have recounted regarding the Nazgul does invoke “Death of the Author” to a fair degree, as we know they are collectively a genuine threat to the likes of Gandalf and Glorfindel

• "On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not withstand all the Nine at once." - Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two: Many Meetings
• “I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree – and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Suˆl. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.” - Gandalf’s narration - Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two: The Council of Elrond
  • Note: The scaling between Gandalf and Glorfindel being nebulous aside, Gandalf was in a defensive position, giving him an advantage in contrast to the other scenario. In the day, when not in a defensive position, he preferred to continue fleeing rather than finishing off 4 Nazgul
    • “‘At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more. It was impossible to find you, Frodo, in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels. So I had to trust to Aragorn. But I hoped to draw some of them off, and yet reach Rivendell ahead of you and send out help. Four Riders did indeed follow me, but they turned back after a while and made for the Ford, it seems. That helped a little, for there were only five, not nine, when your camp was attacked.” - Gandalf’s narration - Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two: The Council of Elrond
    • Especially notable as these four did not include the Witch-King, who goes on to attack Weathertop
• "Two days after Gandalf had departed from Orthanc, the Lord of Morgul halted before the Gate of Isengard. Then Saruman, already filled with wrath and fear by the escape of Gandalf, perceived the peril of standing between enemies, a known traitor to both. His dread was great, for his hope of deceiving Sauron, or at the least of receiving his favour in victory, was utterly lost. Now either he himself must gain the Ring or come to ruin and torment. But he was wary and cunning still, and he had ordered Isengard against just such an evil chance. The Circle of Isengard was too strong for even the Lord of Morgul and his company to assail without great force of war. Therefore to his challenge and demands he received only the answer of the voice of Saruman, that spoke by some art as though it came from the Gate itself." - Unfinished Tales: IV: THE HUNT FOR THE RING
  • Note, it is the Lord of Morgul AND his company that are being considered, not just the Witch-King (who is merely the strongest of their number right now, not at his RotK levels)

They are consistently portrayed as a threat to the likes of Gandalf the Grey or even Saruman the White while in a group, and while the Witch-King is stronger than the rest of them, he isn’t overly powerful yet as he has not yet

• “The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. ” - Letter 210

Of course, this does mean they downscale by a significant margin. Moreover, LotR has repeatedly portrayed overwhelmingly powerful characters being defeated by great numbers in the past (Finrod, who could contest Sauron in a magical duel, nearly died to an overwhelming number of orcs, albeit certain orcs in that age were actually Maiar in disguise).

However, outside of this one WoG statement, there isn’t any reason to really claim they shouldn’t downscale. They have no real anti-feats, and are only ever beaten by higher tier characters (the flood for instance was made by the power of Elrond, who bore Vilya, the strongest of the Three Rings. Vilya is thus superior to Nenya, which is part of what makes Lothlorien so unassailable)

• “Elrond wore a mantle of grey and had a star upon his forehead, and a silver harp was in his hand, and upon his finger was a ring of gold with a great blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the Three.” - Return of the King: Book Six: The Grey Havens
• “‘Elrond commanded it,’ answered Gandalf. ‘The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released. If I may say so, I added a few touches of my own: you may not have noticed, but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders; and there were many rolling and grinding boulders.” - Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two: Many Meeting
  • Note: Elvish realms that are stated to be under someone's "power" in this literal manner seem to refer to the Elvish Rings, like with Lothlorien, as seen below
• “But the Lord of Morgul, seeing no better counsel, determined still to seek northward, hoping maybe to come upon Gollum as well as to discover the Shire. That this would prove to be not far from the hated land of Lórien seemed to him not unlikely, if it was not indeed within the fences of Galadriel. But the power of the White Ring he would not defy, nor enter yet into Lórien. ” - Unfinished Tales: IV: THE HUNT FOR THE RING
• “Galadriel counselled him that the Three Rings of the Elves should be hidden, never used, and dispersed, far from Eregion where Sauron believed them to be. It was at that time that she received Nenya, the White Ring, from Celebrimbor, and by its power the realm of Lórinand was strengthened and made beautiful” - Unfinished Tales: IV: THE HISTORY OF GALADRIEL AND CELEBORN

In this circumstance, I thus advocate that the Nazgul should be something like “9-B, at most Low 7-B to 7-A”

This allows us to cover both the low-ends and higher-ends together, much as we do for the likes of Gothmog (Balrog). The low ends being acceptable due to both WoG and instances of LotR characters being threatened by logically far inferior foes. The higher ends being acceptable due to the lack of real anti-feats and their repeated ability to threaten Gandalf the Grey tier fighters in groups as small as four (without the Witch-King). The “at most” being preferable as they downscale by an unknown amount.

The Witch-King is the sole exception, being the only individual to survive the flood of Elrond’s power, whose Ring is superior to the White Ring (Nenya, which the Witch-King believed to be beyond his power)

• “Three of the black horses had been found at once drowned in the flooded Ford. On the rocks of the rapids below it searchers discovered the bodies of five more, and also a long black cloak, slashed and tattered. Of the Black Riders no other trace was to be seen, and nowhere was their presence to be felt. It seemed that they had vanished from the North. ‘Eight out of the Nine are accounted for at least,’ said Gandalf. ‘It is rash to be too sure, yet I think that we may hope now that the Ringwraiths were scattered, and have been obliged to return as best they could to their Master in Mordor, empty and shapeless.” - Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two: The Ring Goes South
  • Only one survived without their physical body destroyed. It's pretty obvious who this is.
  • Note: Survived, not overcame.
  • It’s also notably emphasised that he’s the main threat to Saruman during their encounter.

Numenorean Blessings

To begin with, we should cover how the Numenorean blessings work. Tolkien, as always, is never the most specific, but we do get a general idea of how the blessings of Numenor work.

They essentially provide an increased lifespan and greater physical attributes (health, strength, precision, height, etc).

• “The host of Gil-galad and Elendil had the victory, for the might of the Elves was still great in those days, and the Númenóreans were strong and tall, and terrible in their wrath.” - Silmarillion: OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE
  • Notable as the strength of the Numenorean is comparable to Noldor (High Elven) might - these are the remaining Elves who fought in the First Age against Balrogs and Dragons
• “In the Sea the strong men took their greatest delight: in swimming or in diving; or in small craft for contests of speed in rowing and sailing. The hardiest of the people were engaged in fishing: fish were abundant, and at all times one of the chief sources of food for Númenor.” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Three: XI Lives of the Numenoreans
• “The Númenórean men, being tall and powerful, could shoot with speed and accuracy upon foot from great long bows, whose shafts would carry to great distance (some 600 yards or more), and at lesser range were of great penetration.” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Three: XIII Of the Land and Beasts of Numenor
• “The Númenóreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of Men; their full-grown men were commonly 7 ft. tall, especially in the royal and noble houses.” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: VI Description of the Characters
• "So great was the power and splendour of the Númenóreans in the noontide of their realm that the servants of Sauron would not withstand them, and hoping to accomplish by cunning what he could not achieve by force, he left Middle-earth for a while and went to Númenor as a hostage of Tar-Calion the King." - Silmarillion: OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE
  • "Ring-wraiths The slaves of the Nine Rings of Men and chief servants ofSauron; also called Nazgûl and Úlairi." - The Silmarillion: Index
  • This does imply even the Witch-King could not overcome them, which is notable as it will be detailed below that he is an in-verse army killer.

The waning of the blessings sees a decrease in these attributes

• “For the blood of the Númenóreans became much mingled with that of other men, and their power and wisdom was diminished, and their life-span was shortened, and the watch upon Mordor slumbered.” - Silmarillion: OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE
  • Fun fact, it may sound like eugenics, but virtue matters more than “mingling” in other notes. Hence why the decline is more pronounced elsewhere than Gondor or Arnor
• “The dwindling of the Dúnedain was not a normal tendency, shared by peoples whose proper home was Middle-earth; but due to the loss of their ancient land far in the West, nearest of all mortal lands to “The Undying Realm”. In both Arnor and Gondor, apart from mixture of race, the Númenóreans showed a dwindling of height and longevity in Middle-earth that became more marked as the Third Age passed.” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: VI Description of the Characters

Lifespan is the most obvious way of measuring the degree of the decline in characters, and can thus be used to measure the extent to which blessings remain. In this way, graphs such as those listed here are handy.

The potency of blessings is on full show throughout the trilogy, with Boromir and Aragorn being the strongest of the Fellowship in Legolas’ eyes (being unaware of Gandalf’s true nature), Faramir being one of the greatest captains of Gondor, and the only three unscathed fighters of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields/Siege of Minas Tirith being of Numenorean descent:

• “Aragorn and Eomer ´ and Imrahil rode back towards the Gate of the City, and they were now weary beyond joy or sorrow. These three were unscathed, for such was their fortune and the skill and might of their arms, and few indeed had dared to abide them or look on their faces in the hour of their wrath.” - Return of the King: Book Five: The Battle of Pelennor Fields
  • Eomer is actually of Numenorean descent. Quite high Numenorean descent, as the House of Hurin has ties to the Royal Line through the Line of Anarion, which intermarried with the Stewards
    • “Denethor has given long thought to the rhyme and to the words Isildur’s Bane, since Boromir went away. ‘He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best.” Return of the King: Book Five: Minas Tirith
    • “This “chance”, I said, was to be seen in the fact that Húrin the First Steward (from whom Denethor was directly descended) must have been a kinsman of King Minardil” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: V Beards (so much detail on everything)

Boromir (not that one!)
Boromir the Steward, the one the Boromir of the Fellowship is named after, is described in the Appendix as a captain who overturned the conquest of Ithilien, a conquest presumably lead by the Nazgul considering the following line

“Boromir son of Denethor (after whom Boromir of the Nine Walkers was later named) defeated them and regained Ithilien; but Osgiliath was finally ruined, and its great stone-bridge was broken. No people dwelt there afterwards. Boromir was a great captain, and even the Witch-king feared him.” - Lord of the Rings: Appendix A

The Witch-King is outright stated to fear Boromir, with it being heavily implied that there was a fight between the two which Boromir survived, albeit with a cursed wound that would shorten his life.

• “...but he received a Morgul-wound in that war which shortened his days, and he became shrunken with pain and died twelve years after his father…”
• Morgul wounds refer to the wounds caused by the Morgul blades, aka the weapons carried by the Nazgul. That Boromir survived an encounter with the Witch-King and caused the wraith to fear him has obvious implications.

Now, the Witch-King fearing him may refer to his skill as a captain alone, but this ignores both the aforementioned signs of a duel between them, and the Witch-King’s character.

Fears of the Witch-King

The Witch-King is only ever stated to fear something when he feels his life (or whatever counts as life for an undead puppet king) is in danger.

He is one of the few characters in LotR to emerge out of a military defeat with no fear for the enemy army, almost single-handedly overturning

• “Then the Witch-king, with all that he could gather from the wreck, fled northwards, seeking his own land of Angmar. Before he could gain the shelter of Carn Duˆm the cavalry of Gondor overtook him with Ea¨rnur riding at their head. At the same time a force under Glorfindel the Elf-lord came up out of Rivendell. Then so utterly was Angmar defeated that not a man nor an orc of that realm remained west of the Mountains. ‘But it is said that when all was lost suddenly the Witch-king himself appeared, black-robed and black-masked upon a black horse.” - Lord of the Rings: Appendix A
• “ When the Enemy returned our folk were driven from Ithilien, our fair domain east of the River, though we kept a foothold there and strength of arms. But this very year, in the days of June, sudden war came upon us out of Mordor, and we were swept away. We were outnumbered, for Mordor has allied itself with the Easterlings and the cruel Haradrim; but it was not by numbers that we were defeated. A power was there that we have not felt before. ‘Some said that it could be seen, like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon. Wherever he came a madness filled our foes, but fear fell on our boldest, so that horse and man gave way and fled. Only a remnant of our eastern force came back, destroying the last bridge that still stood amid the ruins of Osgiliath.” - Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two: The Council of Elrond
  • Narration by Boromir. If it isn’t clear, he is describing the coming of the Nazgul
• He does not fear military defeat, and has single handedly, or with his fellow Nazgul alone, overcome the armies of Gondor repeatedly.
• He only ever shows fear when he personally feels endangered.
  • “‘Then the Witch-king laughed, and none that heard it ever forgot the horror of that cry. But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-king turned to flight and passed into the shadows. For night came down on the battlefield, and he was lost, and none saw whither he went…” - Lord of the Rings: Appendix A
    • Flies from Glorfindel, an Elf-Lord on par with the Maiar.
  • “...the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself…” - The lord of the rings : a reader's companion: Hunt for the Ring
    • Note: The text itself is not written by either Tolkien, however, the specific passages I am using are from manuscripts made by J.R.R. Tolkien that within the text. They are extra manuscripts which Christopher did not get to publish before his death.
  • “Aragorn…who seems to be a great power…Bearer(Frodo)...dared to strike him with an enchanted sword made by his enemies long ago for his destruction…he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgul...he withdrew and hid for a while, out of fear and doubt of Aragorn and especially of Frodo” - The lord of the rings : a reader's companion: Hunt for the Ring
    • Note: His thoughts on Frodo are semi-misconceptions, but the fundamental point is that he believes Frodo to be some super powerful small fella who carries the Ring, despite Aragorn being the more obviously powerful fella. Him surviving and seemingly beating a barrow-wight, carrying an anti-Nazgul blade, and being “in league with the High Elves” makes the Witch-King fear for his life.
  • “‘Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!’ Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. ‘But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn ´ I am, E´ omund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.’ The winged creature screamed at her, but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt.” Return of the King: Book Five: The Battle of Pelennor Fields
    • Macbeth-analogue. He begins to feel doubt once he realises the prophecy of his end is coming to fulfilment

Essentially, the Witch-King only fears things that he believes to be stronger than, comparable to, or capable of harming him. He has no reason to fear a simple “great captain” when he can overturn armies on his own. Hence, Boromir should be comparable to him. We also have a notable quote stating he never died from Eowyn (and Merry who did the leg-work with that enchanted blade), thus making it clear you don't need to be capable of killing him to make him scared

• "The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight* The Witch-king had been reduced to impotence." - Letter 246
• Moreover, as discussed in the last thread, the Witch-King is not truly immune to weapons. Weapons that pierce him break and harm the wielder, but they can still cut through him and theoretically destroy his body (as we see with other Nazgul). Moreover, this trait only applies to the Witch-King, as we have the quote is specific. Thus you can still harm him fine.
• Later, it will also be noted that the Numenoreans overcame the servants of Sauron, likely including the Nine. It would be simple fair to assume you can temporarily neutralise the Witch-King by damaging his body enough, much like with the other Nazgul. You just need to be strong enough and not be overcome by your weapon breaking.

Aragorn
Now, to the main meat of this topic. Aragorn upscales (again, apologies if the tone is abrasive, I was admittedly quite exhausted during this exchange) from every warrior in the Trilogy that is not of a higher tier, like Gandalf or Glorfindel, as pointed out in the prior thread, he is untouched, undefeated, and only stumbles when exhausted by the length of a battle. At minimum, he is “At least 9-B.”

As a Numenorean/Dunedan, he lived to 210 years of age. This is far in excess of any Numenorean/Dunedan since the 28th King of Gondor, Umbardacil, and the fifth King of Arthedain, Celebrindor. Both died nearly 2000 years prior to Aragorn’s birth, and the blessings of Numenor did not recover between this time for any Dunedan/Numenorean prior.

• “The dwindling of the Dúnedain was not a normal tendency, shared by peoples whose proper home was Middle-earth; but due to the loss of their ancient land far in the West, nearest of all mortal lands to “The Undying Realm”. In both Arnor and Gondor, apart from mixture of race, the Númenóreans showed a dwindling of height and longevity in Middle-earth that became more marked as the Third Age passed” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: VI Description of the Characters
• “This mingling did not at first hasten the waning of the Du´nedain, as had been feared; but the waning still proceeded, little by little, as it had before. For no doubt it was due above all to Middle-earth itself, and to the slow withdrawing of the gifts of the Nu´meno´reans after the downfall of the Land of the Star. Eldacar lived to his two hundred and thirty-fifth year, and was king for fifty-eight years, of which ten were spent in exile.” - Lord of the Rings: Appendix A
  • As the Blessed Isle is destroyed, so too do the blessings withdraw

Aragorn is the sole reversal of this decline (along with the immediate heirs that follow him for a time), having been granted a special clemency

• “The rate of the Half-elven that chose to join the Quendi was evidently in Middle-earth 100 : 1. (For those who joined Men a special rate of growth was established, approximately 3 : 1, though this diminished, but was in Aragorn almost restored: he was 5 : 2).” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part One: IX TIME-SCALES AND RATES OF GROWTH
• “The life of the Númenóreans before their fall (the 2nd fall of Man?) was thus not so much a special gift as a restoration of what should have been the common inheritance of Men, [to live] for 200–300 years. Aragorn claimed to be the last of the Númenóreans.” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: X NOTES ON ÓRË
  • “When Aragorn “resigned life” in 4A 120 he thus resigned 24 years of life. He had lived 210 years and was already within his “decline”. - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part One: ”XVIII ELVISH AGES & NÚMENÓREAN
  • Note: This is contradicted somewhat later with Numenorean lifespan reaching excess of 400 years. As mentioned earlier, still superior to the past 2000 years of Dunedain/Numenoreans
    • “Thus, if a Númenórean reached the end of vigour at about 400 years, he would then pass quickly, in about ten years, from health and vigour of mind to decrepitude and senility.” - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Three: XI Lives of the Numenoreans
• “Nay, lady, I am the last of the Nu´meno´reans and the latest King of the Elder Days; and to me has been given not only a span thrice that of Men of Middle-earth, but also the grace to go at my will, and give back the gift. Now, therefore, I will sleep.” - Lord of the Rings: Appendix A

As such, Aragorn should have a greater share of the blessings of Numenor than any other before him for the past 2000 years, with the Stewards never surpassing 150 years in recorded history.

• Denethor I, Boromir’s immediate predecessor, lived till 102 in comparison.

Hence, he should be superior to all other Dunedain including Boromir the Steward or the majority of the Kings of Arthedain who warred with the Witch-King for hundreds of years

• Remember, the Witch-King can single-handedly destroy Gondorian armies, which were superior to those of Arthedain. Some Arnorians must have been capable of matching him to prevent this, with the Line of Kings being the most potent. But this admittedly veers into speculation.
• “Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals', not even Aragorn.” - Letter 246
  • Aragorn is the pinnacle of mortals during the Third Age for Tolkien, considering he is the one Tolkien compares to Sauron. - “Of ‘mortals’, not even Aragorn.”
• For a point of comparison, Boromir (of the Fellowship this time), a fellow Dunedan/Numenorean, is considered a lesser one despite being from one of the purer lines - “Aragorn, his direct descendant, in spite of the many intervening generations, must still have been a very tall and strong man with a great stride; he was probably at least 6 ft. 6. Boromir, of high Númenórean lineage, would not be much shorter: say 6 ft. 4" - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: VI Description of the Characters - (Also see lifespans of the Stewards compared to the Chieftains)

Aragorn also has his own points to fall back on.

For one, let us return to the “great power” line from the last time this discussion came up. The last time this discussion arose, one point of contention is that this is merely in contrast to his position as a ranger. To an extent that’s true, but with the entire segment (page 180) being taken into consideration, it’s clear that the Witch-King fears Aragorn.

• “The camp is attacked at night by [five Riders]; but they are driven off by Aragorn; and withdraw after wounding Frodo. [The Witch-king] now knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently ‘only a Ranger…” - The lord of the rings : a reader's companion: Hunt for the Ring - line in question, which is followed by
• “Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron’s will was the stronger” - Again, Aragorn was feared by the Witch-King, who only really fears Sauron and those who can kill him. Fodder is pointedly useless against him.
  • Frodo isn’t an anti-feat. The Witch-King is misconstruing him (as mentioned above) as a High-Elven champion who has overpowered Barrow-Wights while also carrying an anti-Wraith blade. Since Frodo has the Ring, he also assumes he must be stronger than Aragorn as why else would he have it?
    • “Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it— save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgil. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.”
    • None of this is true yet, minus the Elbereth part and the enchanted blade. Witch-King is going big-brain right now

Moreover, we know the Witch-King has overcome entire armies of “fodder” before, and we see this again at Sarn Ford (he is consistently one of the few characters not to be overcome by numbers)

• “Night was waning on the twenty-second day of September when drawing together again they came to Sarn Ford and the southernmost borders of the Shire. They found them guarded for the Rangers barred their way. But this was a task beyond the power of the Dúnedain... Some fled northward, hoping to bear news to Aragorn, but they were pursued and slain or driven away into the wild. Some still dared to bar the ford, and held it while day lasted, but at night the Lord of Morgul swept them away, and the Black Riders passed into the Shire...”
• As we see how relatively useless the Dunedain are (despite their high heritage), it makes the statement that Aragorn’s presence could have turned the tied more significant - “They found them guarded for the Rangers barred their way. But this was a task beyond the power of the Dúnedain; and maybe it would still have proved a even if their captain, Aragorn, had been with them.”
  • Note: While it’s not guaranteed or even a good chance, Aragorn’s presence makes it possible for the rangers to win, whereas canonically the Witch-King single handedly defeats the entire group.

We also have this anti-feat discussion from the last thread, where it’s posited Aragorn cannot being comparable to the Witch-King as he is absolutely below a Balrog (who the Witch-King downscales from to a notable degree)

“‘We cannot leave you to hold the door alone!’ said Aragorn. ‘Do as I say!’ said Gandalf fiercely. ‘Swords are no more use here. Go!’” - Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two: The Bridge of Khazad-Dum

• This statement is fundamentally false. Anduril should have been able to carve through Durin’s Bane either way, and Gandalf isn’t actually omniscient (despite being wise).
  • Moreover, this is before Gandalf knows a Balrog is here.
  • “‘A Balrog,’ muttered Gandalf. ‘Now I understand.’ He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. ‘What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.’” - this line comes at the Bridge, whereas the previous line is when Gandalf was holding the door from Balin’s tomb
  • It’s also worth noting that Gandalf is the only one with any known fire/heat resistance. It would be imprudent to assume Aragorn could withstand even being near a Balrog, when other fire spirits have scorched even fellow Maiar (like Arien to Tilion, or Durin’s Bane to Gandalf)
• We do not know how much Aragorn (and to a lesser extent Boromir) could have affected the Balrog. In fact, the battle (temporarily) ends just before they can enter the fray.
  • “With a bound the Balrog leaped full upon the bridge. Its whip whirled and hissed. ‘He cannot stand alone!’ cried Aragorn suddenly and ran back along the bridge. ‘Elendil!’ he shouted. ‘I am with you, Gandalf!’ ‘Gondor!’ cried Boromir and leaped after him.” - Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two: The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
  • NOTE: I am not saying they equal the Balrog (definitely not Boromir, who has clear limits), just that there is no anti-feat here as they are never compared. In theory Anduril should carve up the Balrog, but Aragorn might just burn to a crisp upon nearing the Balrog (Gil-Galad is one shot by fire from Sauron for instance, despite being comparable)

As noted in the last thread, Aragorn also genuinely does not have any anti-feats of being harmed by orc characters or the like. He has in fact jumped into the middle of entire orc groups. His dodging of arrows is the one possible example, but he never actually gets hit by them (and was wearing chainmail anyway, so was it necessary either way? Armour exists for a reason), and fantasy often overvalues piercing damage.

Nazgul conclusion:

“9-B, at most Low 7-B to 7-A”

• As noted above, it takes 4 Nazgul to threaten Gandalf the Grey enough for him to choose fleeing instead of fighting back. He only took on all Nine from a defensive position.
• However, we also have WoG statements putting them at above average alone.
• This is a compromise of both, while also an acknowledgment of their significant downscaling from characters in said higher tiers.

Aragorn conclusion:

• High-end: “Low 7-B, possibly 7-A”
  • Clear cut direct scaling
• Middle-end/Compromise: “At least 9-B, possibly Low 7-B to 7-A” - alternatively “At least 9-B, at most Low 7-B to 7-A”
  • If direct scaling is too much, it is possible to account for both ends in this manner.
• Low-end: “At least 9-B”
  • He is immensely above every other non-Gandalf tier fighter in the Trilogy

For clarity

Nazgul (high-end) << Aragorn (high end) =< Witch-King << Gandalf the Grey/Balrog

I've thought about it, your explanation seems reasonable.

 

[Antvasima]

@Hellbeast @NaturalDestroyer @TheMerchant66 @Dinamic8000 @Armorchompy @DarkDragonMedeus

Your help would be appreciated here.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

I agree with the proposed scaling and statistics. I also second scaling Aragorn to the high end of the Nazgul given Tolkien's intentions of how Numenorean bloodlines are depicted.

Fantastic work, Tyranno.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The proposals above look good to me.

 

[Tyranno223]

Thank you. I'll wait for Armor first, as they have their own views on this matter.

 

[Armorchompy]

i'd be fine with the mid end for aragorn

 

[Tyranno223]

i'd be fine with the mid end for aragorn

Thank you.

Could Antavisma and DDM give their opinions on which ends to use?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I still do not find the Tier 7 scaling for Aragorn particularly compelling, although it is at least present in some form and will cede to the mid-end as a compromise. I think the "at most" phrasing is superior to "possibly".

 

[Tyranno223]

I still do not find the Tier 7 scaling for Aragorn particularly compelling, although it is at least present in some form and will cede to the mid-end as a compromise. I think the "at most" phrasing is superior to "possibly".

Thank you. I'll just wait for Ant and DDM to give their views on the ends.

 

[Tyranno223]

The proposals above look good to me.

@Hellbeast @NaturalDestroyer @TheMerchant66 @Dinamic8000 @Armorchompy @DarkDragonMedeus

Your help would be appreciated here.

Sorry, but which ends would be most acceptable to you both?

 

[Antvasima]

Bambu's and Armorchompy's conclusions are probably fine here if Medeus also agrees with them.

 

[Tyranno223]

I'm personally fine with the mid-end as well, but I am more in favour of "possibly" than "at most", but it's admittedly semantics at that point.

 

[Tyranno223]

It seems DDM might be a while, and we have 2 staff votes for the mid-end and one maybe, so it seems fine to go ahead with that. The 9-B rating could do with some additional justification, so I'll add a reference to this line to one of the pages.

"Ents... their skin seems to be very thick, and tougher than bark. It takes a very heavy axe-stroke to wound them seriously... a man that hacks once at an Ent never gets a chance of a second blow. A punch from an Ent-fist crumples up iron like thin tin."

Humans of Isengard can harm Ents with singular axe-blows, and they should be weaker than the humans and orcs/Uruk-Hai sent to the Hornburg/Helm's Deep to fight Rohan's defenders. This can go alongside the current scaling to Trolls.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Mid End proposal that Bambu concedes to looks fine by me.

 

[Tyranno223]

Mid End proposal that Bambu concedes to looks fine by me.

Thank you.

Guess it's fine to go ahead then. I'll go make the changes.

 

[Tyranno223]

Finally out of stat hell (well, until I get back to look at intelligence, range, and lifting strength).

Powers and Resistances: Part One - Verse-wide stuff

Despite the title, the initial stuff is more limited in scope.

Concept Manipulation and Acausality Expanded
As noted here, Eru and the (last key of the) Ainur should possess Acausality (Type 5) for predating and transcending time in the Legendarium (as noted in profiles).

Moreover, the clash of the Ainur during the Music of the Ainur saw Concept and Fate Manipulation being used against one another, meaning they should all gain resistances to it (although the latter should be resisted anyway via Acausality). Eru would also be immune for being unaffected as he sat in the middle of the clash that shook the entire Halls, with him ending it all with one note.

He's also utterly unassailable by any in the verse as the resident "omnipotent" being. I believe this is "Type One" Concept Manipulation as the Ainur made them independently of reality, with the Music being made first and later being applied to the universe upon its actualization. It is not dependent on things existing for the concept to come into being.

Addendum: Nor is it dependent on its creators beyond its inception. Even when Morgoth was reduced to impotence and sealed outside both the Universe and Timeless Halls (the realm of Eru) inside the Void, the concepts of discourse and evil remained.

These abilities would be 5-D, as their conceiving "Music" shook the 5-D realm Eru and the Ainur exist in.

Note: The listed abilities are already accepted, I'm just specifying the details.

Note 2: This is not a complete list of what the Ainur (and subsequently Eru) are capable of.

Note 3: The Ainur don't ever create new concepts upon descending into time, but they continue to manipulate the pre-existing concepts. Said concepts have no reason to have been suddenly diminished, but the the Ainur don't seem to be able to use them beyond the scope of the universe. Thus I propose they are "at most" 5-D in potency, but not firmly.

Law Manipulation

Eru is stated to have laid out two types of Laws, the Axani and Únati. The former are literal laws, but the latter are things that Eru has made conceptually impossible.

• “We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: Body, Mind, and Spirit - IX ÓSANWE-KENTA
• "únati ‘a thing impossible to be or to be done’" - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Appendices - II GLOSSARY AND INDEX OF QUENYA TERMS
  • "The únati remained, a perpetual reminder of the existence of Eru and His invincibility, a reminder also of the co-existence with himself of other beings (equal indescent if not in power) impregnable by force. From this proceeds his unceasing and unappeasable rage." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: Body, Mind, and Spirit - IX ÓSANWE-KENTA

Eru is able to decide what is physically and conceptually impossible within the Legendarium, with even the strongest of the Ainur being unable to overturn his absolute laws.

• "Melkor repudiated all axani. He would also abolish (for himself) all únati if he could. Indeed in his beginning and the days of his great might the most ruinous of his violences came from his endeavour so to order Eä that there were no limits or obstacles to his will. But this he could not do... From this proceeds his unceasing and unappeasable rage." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: Body, Mind, and Spirit - IX ÓSANWE-KENTA

As "perpetual" proof of his "invincibility", and as it affects even the Ainur, this Law Manipulation should affect the entirety of the Legendarium.

Universal Resistances

There are some verse-wide resistances that emerge from this, albeit resistances that are not absolute within the verse

Mind Manipulation:
In LotR, the mind cannot be penetrated by any (besides Eru) without the consent of said mind. This is known as "the barrier of unwill"

• "Though in “Arda Unmarred” openness is the normal state, every mind has, from its first making as an individual, the right to close; and it has absolute power to make this effective by will. Nothing can penetrate the barrier of Unwill." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: Body, Mind, and Spirit - IX ÓSANWE-KENTA
  • "No mind can, however, be closed against Eru, either against His inspection or against His message. The latter it may not heed, but it cannot say it did not receive it." - Footnotes
• "They were already rebels, but lacking Melkor’spower and ruthless will they admired him, and saw in his leadership hope of effective rebellion.) But those who were yet simple and uncorrupted in“heart” [fn7] were at once aware of his entry, and if they listened to the warning of their hearts, ceased to listen, ejected him, and closed the door. It was such as these that Melkor most desired to overcome: his enemies, for tohim all were enemies who resisted him in the least thing or claimed anything whatsoever as their own and not his. [13]Therefore he sought means to circumvent the únat and the unwill. Andthis weapon he found in “language”. For we speak now of the Incarnate, the Eruhíni whom he most desired to subjugate in Eru’s despite." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: Body, Mind, and Spirit - IX ÓSANWE-KENTA

This means that all in-verse characters possess resistance to even potent mental manipulators, with Sauron dominating the minds of the majority of Numenor, an island with a population of 15 million

• "Before the Downfall the population of Númenor itself may have been as many as 15 million." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Three: The World, its Lands, and its Inhabitans - XIII - OF THE LAND AND BEASTS OF NÚMENOR
• NOTE: This mental resistance applies to penetration, not necessarily other things. Hence why other forms of mind manipulation work.

Soul Manipulation
In LotR, the soul is utterly indestructible. Not even Eru can destroy it, although this is more of an example of "Logical Omnipotence" rather than an outright limit.

Note: All instances of "God" below refer to Eru and in the context of LotR. As noted in prior threads, Tolkien does not truly distinguish between God in faith and God in story.

• "That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, and its apparent toleration, isa permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in theirexistence, or feigns it in a story" - Letter 211
• "Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences." - Letter 153 - Free-will is sustained by Eru. Only souls with free-will are indestructible in the Legendarium, this has obvious correlation and implication. Eru can't destroy something He himself is maintaining.
  • "...the Children of God, Men and Elves (the firstborn) respectively, and could not be altered by anyone (even a Power or god), and would not be altered by the One, except perhaps by one of those strange exceptions to all rules and ordinances which seem to crop up in the history of the Universe, and show the Finger of God, as the one wholly free Will and Agent."
    • Eru is the only true being with genuine free-will, supporting this idea further

Acauasality

From Morgoth's Ring, it is apparent the past cannot be changed in a way that affects the present or the future. Neither can the future be changed.

"The longer the Past, the more nearly defined the Future, and the less room for important change (untrammelled action, on a physical plane, that is not destruc- tive in purpose). The Past, once 'achieved', has become part of the 'Music in being'. Only Eru may or can alter the 'Music'." - Morgoth's Ring: Part Five, Myth's Transformed (iii)

• Note: This is from a manuscript explaining the philosophy of the Silmarillion. It doesn't appear to contradict any rating and in fact explains a problem I had with the speed ratings
  • "This essay is found in two forms. The earlier ('A') is a fairly brief textof four pages in manuscript, titled 'Some notes on the "philosophy" of the Silmarillion'; it is rapidly expressed and does not have a clear ending. The second ('B') is a greatly expanded version of twelve pages, also in manuscript, of far more careful expression and beginning in fine script, but breaking off unfinished, indeed in the middle of asentence. This is titled 'Notes on motives in the Silmarillion'. The relation between the two forms is such that for most of its length there is no need to give any of the text of A, for all of its contentis found embedded in B. From the point (p. 401) where the Valar are condemned for the raising of the Pelori, however, the texts diverge. In B my father introduced a long palliation of the conduct of the Valar, and the essay breaks off before the matter of the concluding section of A was reached (see note 6); this is therefore given at the end of B. The text of B was subsequently divided and lettered as three distinct sections, here numbered (i), (ii), and (iii)."

I believe this is "type one" Acausality, with neither past nor future affecting LotR characters.

This also supports the notion of continued Immeasurable speed for the Ainur's immaterial form in their weaker keys, which I previously dismissed as being incompatible with the story.

• "But as for the Valar themselves, and the Maiar also in their degree: they could live at any speed of thought or motion which they chose or desired.*(3) They could move backward or forward in thought, and return again so swiftly that to those who were in their presence they did not appear to have moved. All that was past they could fully perceive; but being now in Time the future they could only perceive or explore in so far as its design was made clear to them in the Music, or as each one of them was specially concerned with this or that part of Eru's design, being His agent or Subcreator. In this way of perception they could foresee none of the acts of the Children, Elves and Men, in whose conceiving and introduction into Ea none of the Valar had played any part at all; concerning the Children they could only deduce likelihood, in the same way as can the Children themselves, though from a far greater knowledge of facts and the contributory events of the past, and with far greater intelligence and wisdom. Yet there always remained an uncertainty with regard to the words and deeds of Elves and Men in Time not yet unfolded." - Morgoth's Ring: Part Five, Myth's Transformed (xi)

Hence they can travel in time into the past and the future (to a more limited extent than before), but cannot affect it due to the Acausal nature of the entire verse due to Eru's Laws. As such, this means the Ainur can be Immeasurable for the "Within the confines of Eä" key as well.

 

[Tyranno223]

I forgot to write out the conclusion, so I might as well add it as a light bump.

Conclusion:

• Concept Manipulation Resistance for the Ainur and Eru (to be added to the work in progress powers page for the Ainur. NOTE: None of the listed abilities on the powers page have been evaluated yet. They're just placeholders until the ability revisions are done)
• Expansions on previously accepted powers (they were accepted, but not the type)
  • Acausality Type 5
  • Concept Manipulation Type 1
  • There is also Fate Manipulation, but I don't believe there's a typing for that one
• Law Manipulation for Eru
• Universal Resistances for the Verse
  • Mind Manipulation (Mental penetration specifically)
  • Soul Manipulation (Soul destruction specifically)
  • Acausality (Type 1 for being immune to changes to past and future)
• Immeasurable speed for the Ainur "Within the confines of Eä" Key
  • Weakness being a limited ability to travel to future only as far as they remember the original design. Acausality of all the verse characters makes this ability pretty useless in-verse (minus the infinite speed applications).

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Makes sense to me

 

[Experiment12]

Seems fine.

 

[Tyranno223]

Bumpity

 

[Tyranno223]

Bambu's and Armorchompy's conclusions are probably fine here if Medeus also agrees with them.

Sorry, but are the ability proposals reasonable?

 

[Tyranno223]

Fellowship of the Bump

 

[Antvasima]

This seems fine to me if the others here agree with it as well.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Armorchompy @TheMerchant66

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good yes

 

[Tyranno223]

Looks good yes

This seems fine to me if the others here agree with it as well.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Armorchompy @TheMerchant66

Thank you. Is the typing for Concept Manip and Acausality okay? I'm not as well versed im abilities yet.

 

[Arceus0x]

Been thinking. We could get two calcs for movie Gandalf. One for reaction speed as he could parry an arrow from Legolas and another is mostly from Saruman. If we calculate the height of Orthank we could get the speed of the fireball shot by Saruman.

 

[Experiment12]

Thank you. Is the typing for Concept Manip and Acausality okay? I'm not as well versed im abilities yet.

Can this be implemented?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Is the typing for Concept Manip and Acausality okay? I'm not as well versed im abilities yet.

I think so, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Never mind. I misread the question.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Armorchompy @Mr._Bambu

What do you think?

 

[Eseseso]

Finally out of stat hell (well, until I get back to look at intelligence, range, and lifting strength).

Powers and Resistances: Part One - Verse-wide stuff

Despite the title, the initial stuff is more limited in scope.

Concept Manipulation and Acausality Expanded
As noted here, Eru and the (last key of the) Ainur should possess Acausality (Type 5) for predating and transcending time in the Legendarium (as noted in profiles).

Moreover, the clash of the Ainur during the Music of the Ainur saw Concept and Fate Manipulation being used against one another, meaning they should all gain resistances to it (although the latter should be resisted anyway via Acausality). Eru would also be immune for being unaffected as he sat in the middle of the clash that shook the entire Halls, with him ending it all with one note.

He's also utterly unassailable by any in the verse as the resident "omnipotent" being. I believe this is "Type One" Concept Manipulation as the Ainur made them independently of reality, with the Music being made first and later being applied to the universe upon its actualization. It is not dependent on things existing for the concept to come into being.

These abilities would be 5-D, as their conceiving "Music" shook the 5-D realm Eru and the Ainur exist in.

Note: The listed abilities are already accepted, I'm just specifying the details.

Note 2: This is not a complete list of what the Ainur (and subsequently Eru) are capable of.

Note 3: The Ainur don't ever create new concepts upon descending into time, but they continue to manipulate the pre-existing concepts. Said concepts have no reason to have been suddenly diminished, but the the Ainur don't seem to be able to use them beyond the scope of the universe. Thus I propose they are "at most" 5-D in potency, but not firmly.

Law Manipulation

Eru is stated to have laid out two types of Laws, the Axani and Únati. The former are literal laws, but the latter are things that Eru has made conceptually impossible.

• “We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: Body, Mind, and Spirit - IX ÓSANWE-KENTA
• "únati ‘a thing impossible to be or to be done’" - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Appendices - II GLOSSARY AND INDEX OF QUENYA TERMS
  • "The únati remained, a perpetual reminder of the existence of Eru and His invincibility, a reminder also of the co-existence with himself of other beings (equal indescent if not in power) impregnable by force. From this proceeds his unceasing and unappeasable rage." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: Body, Mind, and Spirit - IX ÓSANWE-KENTA

Eru is able to decide what is physically and conceptually impossible within the Legendarium, with even the strongest of the Ainur being unable to overturn his absolute laws.

• "Melkor repudiated all axani. He would also abolish (for himself) all únati if he could. Indeed in his beginning and the days of his great might the most ruinous of his violences came from his endeavour so to order Eä that there were no limits or obstacles to his will. But this he could not do... From this proceeds his unceasing and unappeasable rage." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: Body, Mind, and Spirit - IX ÓSANWE-KENTA

As "perpetual" proof of his "invincibility", and as it affects even the Ainur, this Law Manipulation should affect the entirety of the Legendarium.

Universal Resistances

There are some verse-wide resistances that emerge from this, albeit resistances that are not absolute within the verse

Mind Manipulation:
In LotR, the mind cannot be penetrated by any (besides Eru) without the consent of said mind. This is known as "the barrier of unwill"

• "Though in “Arda Unmarred” openness is the normal state, every mind has, from its first making as an individual, the right to close; and it has absolute power to make this effective by will. Nothing can penetrate the barrier of Unwill." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: Body, Mind, and Spirit - IX ÓSANWE-KENTA
  • "No mind can, however, be closed against Eru, either against His inspection or against His message. The latter it may not heed, but it cannot say it did not receive it." - Footnotes
• "They were already rebels, but lacking Melkor’spower and ruthless will they admired him, and saw in his leadership hope of effective rebellion.) But those who were yet simple and uncorrupted in“heart” [fn7] were at once aware of his entry, and if they listened to the warning of their hearts, ceased to listen, ejected him, and closed the door. It was such as these that Melkor most desired to overcome: his enemies, for tohim all were enemies who resisted him in the least thing or claimed anything whatsoever as their own and not his. [13]Therefore he sought means to circumvent the únat and the unwill. Andthis weapon he found in “language”. For we speak now of the Incarnate, the Eruhíni whom he most desired to subjugate in Eru’s despite." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two: Body, Mind, and Spirit - IX ÓSANWE-KENTA

This means that all in-verse characters possess resistance to even potent mental manipulators, with Sauron dominating the minds of the majority of Numenor, an island with a population of 15 million

• "Before the Downfall the population of Númenor itself may have been as many as 15 million." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Three: The World, its Lands, and its Inhabitans - XIII - OF THE LAND AND BEASTS OF NÚMENOR
• NOTE: This mental resistance applies to penetration, not necessarily other things. Hence why other forms of mind manipulation work.

Soul Manipulation
In LotR, the soul is utterly indestructible. Not even Eru can destroy it, although this is more of an example of "Logical Omnipotence" rather than an outright limit.

Note: All instances of "God" below refer to Eru and in the context of LotR. As noted in prior threads, Tolkien does not truly distinguish between God in faith and God in story.

• "That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, and its apparent toleration, isa permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in theirexistence, or feigns it in a story" - Letter 211
• "Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences." - Letter 153 - Free-will is sustained by Eru. Only souls with free-will are indestructible in the Legendarium, this has obvious correlation and implication. Eru can't destroy something He himself is maintaining.
  • "...the Children of God, Men and Elves (the firstborn) respectively, and could not be altered by anyone (even a Power or god), and would not be altered by the One, except perhaps by one of those strange exceptions to all rules and ordinances which seem to crop up in the history of the Universe, and show the Finger of God, as the one wholly free Will and Agent."
    • Eru is the only true being with genuine free-will, supporting this idea further

Acauasality

From Morgoth's Ring, it is apparent the past cannot be changed in a way that affects the present or the future. Neither can the future be changed.

"The longer the Past, the more nearly defined the Future, and the less room for important change (untrammelled action, on a physical plane, that is not destruc- tive in purpose). The Past, once 'achieved', has become part of the 'Music in being'. Only Eru may or can alter the 'Music'." - Morgoth's Ring: Part Five, Myth's Transformed (iii)

• Note: This is from a manuscript explaining the philosophy of the Silmarillion. It doesn't appear to contradict any rating and in fact explains a problem I had with the speed ratings
  • "This essay is found in two forms. The earlier ('A') is a fairly brief textof four pages in manuscript, titled 'Some notes on the "philosophy" of the Silmarillion'; it is rapidly expressed and does not have a clear ending. The second ('B') is a greatly expanded version of twelve pages, also in manuscript, of far more careful expression and beginning in fine script, but breaking off unfinished, indeed in the middle of asentence. This is titled 'Notes on motives in the Silmarillion'. The relation between the two forms is such that for most of its length there is no need to give any of the text of A, for all of its contentis found embedded in B. From the point (p. 401) where the Valar are condemned for the raising of the Pelori, however, the texts diverge. In B my father introduced a long palliation of the conduct of the Valar, and the essay breaks off before the matter of the concluding section of A was reached (see note 6); this is therefore given at the end of B. The text of B was subsequently divided and lettered as three distinct sections, here numbered (i), (ii), and (iii)."

I believe this is "type one" Acausality, with neither past nor future affecting LotR characters.

This also supports the notion of continued Immeasurable speed for the Ainur's immaterial form in their weaker keys, which I previously dismissed as being incompatible with the story.

• "But as for the Valar themselves, and the Maiar also in their degree: they could live at any speed of thought or motion which they chose or desired.*(3) They could move backward or forward in thought, and return again so swiftly that to those who were in their presence they did not appear to have moved. All that was past they could fully perceive; but being now in Time the future they could only perceive or explore in so far as its design was made clear to them in the Music, or as each one of them was specially concerned with this or that part of Eru's design, being His agent or Subcreator. In this way of perception they could foresee none of the acts of the Children, Elves and Men, in whose conceiving and introduction into Ea none of the Valar had played any part at all; concerning the Children they could only deduce likelihood, in the same way as can the Children themselves, though from a far greater knowledge of facts and the contributory events of the past, and with far greater intelligence and wisdom. Yet there always remained an uncertainty with regard to the words and deeds of Elves and Men in Time not yet unfolded." - Morgoth's Ring: Part Five, Myth's Transformed (xi)

Hence they can travel in time into the past and the future (to a more limited extent than before), but cannot affect it due to the Acausal nature of the entire verse due to Eru's Laws. As such, this means the Ainur can be Immeasurable for the "Within the confines of Eä" key as well.

I disagree with Type 5 Acausality, as being before/above time is just Type 4 (ask @Theglassman12), but the rest looks good.

 

[Tyranno223]

I disagree with Type 5 Acausality, as being before/above time is just Type 4 (ask @Theglassman12), but the rest looks good.

Really? It's not just being above time, it's viewing time as "fiction". The difference between reality and mythology (as Tolkien describes).

 

[Tyranno223]

Can this be implemented?

I'd wait till the typing is resolved. It's 48 hours grace regardless.

I won't update the universal powers and resistances page for the Ainur until everything is done in that regards (this'll be the topic of my next revision).

 

[Eseseso]

Really? It's not just being above time, it's viewing time as "fiction". The difference between reality and mythology (as Tolkien describes).

For Type 5, you need to be completely outside of cause and effect.

But just to be certain, I'll ask some people more versed in Type 4 vs 5 Acausality.

 

[Tyranno223]

For Type 5, you need to be completely outside of cause and effect.

But just to be certain, I'll ask some people more versed in Type 4 vs 5 Acausality.

Thanks.

 

[Eseseso]

Thanks.

No problem, I already reached out to Glassman, and he's one of the wiki's Acausality experts.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Eseseso makes sense to me.