Lord of the Rings Discussion Thread

[Tyranno223]

I already brought this up but i think this should be used for further proof of not only Morgoth being High 3-A but all Valar (who downscale from him), basically he can affect all of Arda (the whole planet if not solar system) and potentially the whole Eä (the physical Universe itself).

"For they hold that the failure of their hroar to endure in vitality unwearied as long as their fear - a process which was not observed until the later ages - is due to the Marring of Arda, and comes of the Shadow, and of the taint of Melkor that touches all the matter (or hroa)(8) of Arda, if not indeed of all Eä."

There's also this:
"even left alone he [Morgoth] could only have gone raging on till all was levelled again into a formless chaos. And yet even so he would have been defeated, because it would still have 'existed', independent of his own mind, and a world in potential."

Whatever that means.

That's some good support, I'll make sure to detail that as extra justification once the pages unlock next (though I am forgetful to the point I forgot to add Immeasurable speed last time)

Also, in unfinished tales, after Sauron's defeat, Aragorn and Gimly go to Isengard to uncover all the secrets and they find the crown of Isildur, this should imply that Saruman was working with Sauron for way before the Fellowship of the Ring began, if we take that as 100% canon that is.

Yeah Saruman has been "working" with Sauron for a while, he got caught in the Palantir network and dominated. However, he's a traitor to Sauron as well in the Books because he wants to be the Ring-Lord and he's kind of an independent evil by the Two Towers.

 

[Tyranno223]

"Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job' except those imposed by his own finiteness? No bounds, but the laws of contradiction, I should think.

Sorry about jumping back to this line for a third time (having a bit of a hectic few days on my own end so I keep missing stuff) but since this line seems to refer to the Sub-creators, as in Tolkien himself and other authors in the "Real World", this cosmologically puts the "Real World" as High 1-A+

The "Real World" is viewed by Eru as fiction again, being that Eru is author of even "us" and that's wonderful support for Tier 0

However, the "Primary Reality" that the Ainur reside in is described as, at the very least, on par with the "Real World" in existence if not above it (depending on how literally the Timeless Halls are Eru's abode. It's the awkward situation of Seraphim around God's Throne sort of thing).

The Ainur in their origin at the very least rival "authors" in terms of existence (with the Valar being granted titles as Sub-Creators in their own right, albeit in reference to their work in making the material world).

So going back to my earlier rushed reactionary comment, would this result in the entire race being High 1-A+ in origin? Was it not only possible for only 1 character to be High 1-A+ per verse?

Sorry again for not having my questions laid out in a more organised way.

 

[Gasper]

As far as i understood the tiering system, High 1-A+ is the peak of cosmology and the only thing that can exist above it is tier 0.
So, again, as i understood it, there can be multiple High 1-A+ characters but they can't have a hierarchy. If they do then they aren't High 1-A+ in the first place.

 

[Tyranno223]

As far as i understood the tiering system, High 1-A+ is the peak of cosmology and the only thing that can exist above it is tier 0.
So, again, as i understood it, there can be multiple High 1-A+ characters but they can't have a hierarchy. If they do then they aren't High 1-A+ in the first place.

Yeah that's kind of the issue. The Ainur have a hierarchy of strength and yet their existence is comparable to that of the "Real World" in terms of, well, "existing".

Writers don't have a limit in terms of their job as sub-creators, in that sense the Ainur are similar in that the only bounds they had when making the Music was their imagination. But of course, then we have Melkor who is outright stated to be stronger than the others even in this period of their existence.

 

[Gasper]

Yeah that's kind of the issue. The Ainur have a hierarchy of strength and yet their existence is comparable to that of the "Real World" in terms of, well, "existing".

They don't have a hierarchy of R>F.
They live on the same plane of reality.

 

[Tyranno223]

They don't have a hierarchy of R>F.
They live on the same plane of reality.

Ah, so is the issue just a hierarchy of R>F? I thought High 1-A+ couldn't have one potential candidate being stronger or weaker than another.

 

[Gasper]

Ah, so is the issue just a hierarchy of R>F? I thought High 1-A+ couldn't have one potential candidate being stronger or weaker than another.

Just R>F as far as i'm aware.

 

[Tyranno223]

Just R>F as far as i'm aware.

We'll see if Ultima comments differently, but I assumed the line

"Due to the nature of how it works, High 1-A+ has similar properties to Tier 0, in a way. For instance, all characters in that tier are exactly equal."

Meant they had to be the same.

 

[Gasper]

Quick question, should we rename LOTR verse page to "Legendarium" instead of "Lord of the Rings"?

 

[DOOMSLAYER127]

Quick question, should we rename LOTR verse page to "Legendarium" instead of "Lord of the Rings"?

Yeah, it's awesome and cool to rename it Tolkien Legendarium.

 

[Tyranno223]

Some general stuff on the side. Free-Will in Tolkien probably gives either some Limited Fate Manipulation or Limited Resistance to it at least. Also quite a few of the "Wise" gain predictive precognition. Fate in LotR is discernable enough (it is the Music afterall) that the Wise can discern the future somewhat through the experiences of their long lives + their wisdom + their intuition. This is seperate from the Ainur actually knowing the future (Istari being an exception as their job limits their memories pre-arrival in Middle-Earth).

 

[Gasper]

Gil-galad is rated as moon level for being comparable to Sauron, but Sauron isn't rated as moon level. So that's weird.

Gil-galad

Gil-galad, originally named Ereinion, was born in the first age, in the year 450. He was the last high king of the Noldor, and ascended to the throne in the year 510, 60 years later. He led the Noldor elves during the war of the last alliance, finally being killed by Sauron himself. Tier: At...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Tyranno223]

Gil-galad is rated as moon level for being comparable to Sauron, but Sauron isn't rated as moon level. So that's weird.

Gil-galad

Gil-galad, originally named Ereinion, was born in the first age, in the year 450. He was the last high king of the Noldor, and ascended to the throne in the year 510, 60 years later. He led the Noldor elves during the war of the last alliance, finally being killed by Sauron himself. Tier: At...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Oh that's a left over from the 5-C revision a while back. That needs changing.

 

[Gasper]

Oh that's a left over from the 5-C revision a while back. That needs changing.

Ah, that explains it.

EDIT: another quick question, will other Elfs and Dragons get revision for their abilities too? Dragons are kinda barebones.

 

[Tyranno223]

Ah, that explains it.

EDIT: another quick question, will other Elfs and Dragons get revision for their abilities too? Dragons are kinda barebones.

I plan to go through each character eventually. Elves are probably next.

 

[Gasper]

I plan to go through each character eventually. Elves are probably next.

One question, what are Sauron's most impressive telepathic feats other than controlling thousands of orcs?

 

[Tyranno223]

One question, what are Sauron's most impressive telepathic feats other than controlling thousands of orcs?

He mentally dominated most of the population of Númenor which was 15 million.

Only some thousands remained faithful. Everyone else faithful had fled to mainland.

 

[Tyranno223]

On another sidenote, I have scaling idea that would put Olorin and Curumo around Last Alliance Sauron's tier based on some commentary around Gandalf the White (he wouldn't scale to that obviously, at least not in all statistics).

 

[Gasper]

Glaurung is described as having an evil spirit within him, could this be Morgoth controlling him, or are these just lesser spirits that just so happen to exist in Dragons?

Spoiler

"But at that moment Glaurung issued from the gaping doors, and lay behind, between Turin and the bridge. Then suddenly he spoke, by the evil spirit that was in him, saying: "Hail, son of Hurin. Well met!"

 

[Tyranno223]

Glaurung is described as having an evil spirit within him, could this be Morgoth controlling him, or are these just lesser spirits that just so happen to exist in Dragons?

Spoiler

"But at that moment Glaurung issued from the gaping doors, and lay behind, between Turin and the bridge. Then suddenly he spoke, by the evil spirit that was in him, saying: "Hail, son of Hurin. Well met!"

Morgoth and later Sauron chased out or trapped the souls within beings with fear and then filled them with evil spirits to create monsters from the mutated bodies.

It's also theorised that dragons, at least the first generation, were incarnate Fallen Maiar like the Boldogs (Maiar who took the form of orcs).

Spirits often refer to Maiar unless specifically stated otherwise, either directly or contextually.

 

[Gasper]

Morgoth and later Sauron chased out or trapped the souls within beings with fear and then filled them with evil spirits to create monsters from the mutated bodies.

It's also theorised that dragons, at least the first generation, were incarnate Fallen Maiar like the Boldogs (Maiar who took the form of orcs).

Spirits often refer to Maiar unless specifically stated otherwise, either directly or contextually.

I see. Does this grant Dragons any additional powers?

 

[Tyranno223]

I see. Does this grant Dragons any additional powers?

Not really, it's only theoretical. For instance, Ungoliant is very likely a Fallen Ainu but we can't give her their abilities as it's just not confirmed.

Dragons will get some stuff like hypnosis though. Maybe even some magic.

 

[Gasper]

Not really, it's only theoretical. For instance, Ungoliant is very likely a Fallen Ainu but we can't give her their abilities as it's just not confirmed.

Dragons will get some stuff like hypnosis though. Maybe even some magic.

Shouldn't Glaurung also have curse manipulation as well?

 

[Tyranno223]

Shouldn't Glaurung also have curse manipulation as well?

Probably. Dragons are low down on my list of priorities though so I don't exactly remember.

 

[Gasper]

Probably. Dragons are low down on my list of priorities though so I don't exactly remember.

One less related question, do all Dragons have toxic blood or just Glaurung?

Also, Smaug induces something called "Dragon sickness" how does it work?

 

[Tyranno223]

One less related question, do all Dragons have toxic blood or just Glaurung?

Probably? We don't really get detailed description on the blood of other dragons, although black blood is a property of Morgoth and his other creations like trolls.

Also, Smaug induces something called "Dragon sickness" how does it work?

Isn't that movie only?

 

[Gasper]

Probably? We don't really get detailed description on the blood of other dragons, although black blood is a property of Morgoth and his other creations like trolls.

Isn't that movie only?

Yeah, just realized that. I did a lil bit of research and It looks like it isn't a literal sickness that Smaug can induce but more so a phrase for greed as in "you are as greedy as a dragon for gold" or something.
In the movie only that is.

 

[Gasper]

Would this be a good justification for Low-Godly regeneration for Ainur?
From Morgoth's ring btw.

Spoiler

The Elves certainly held and taught that fear or 'spirits' may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed. If they do not sink below a certain level.

Since no fea can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, it is not clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered.

 

[Tyranno223]

Yeah, just realized that. I did a lil bit of research and It looks like it isn't a literal sickness that Smaug can induce but more so a phrase for greed as in "you are as greedy as a dragon for gold" or something.
In the movie only that is.

Speaking of dragons though

Would this be a good justification for Low-Godly regeneration for Ainur?
From Morgoth's ring btw.

Spoiler

The Elves certainly held and taught that fear or 'spirits' may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed. If they do not sink below a certain level.

Since no fea can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, it is not clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered.

How the Ainur make their bodies is basically typical Low-Godly, being able to make or reform a physical form around their soul.

This specific quote is more useful for proof of Ainuric Immortality.

On another note, it's also good proof for the fact that Ainur can regenerate their souls as long as they aren't below the point of recovery. Not Mid-Godly, but still quite good Low-Godly since quite a few can't regen spiritual damage.

 

[Tyranno223]

Some Elvish stuff but it does appear that the Valar would immediately begin to restore their bodies upon being slain (albeit in Valinor) with the exception of "sinners" (like the Exiles) who would basically be stuck in a form of purgatory inside the Halls. Other notes also mention the traumatised would willingly remain as a spirit to heal.

"The Elves were destined to be by nature 'immortal', within the unknown limits of the life of the Earth as a habitable realm, and their disembodiment was a grievous thing. It was the duty, therefore, of the Valar to restore them, if they were slain, to incarnate life, if they desired it unless for some grave (and rare) reason: such as deeds of great evil, or any works of malice of which they remained obdurately unrepentant. When they were re-embodied they could remain in Valinor, or return to Middle-earth if their home had been there. We can therefore reasonably suppose that Glorfindel, after the purging or forgiveness of his part in the rebellion of the Noldor, was released from Mandos and became himself again, but remained in the Blessed Realm"

In theory this is kind of relevant in battles if they take place in Valinor, or in Middle-Earth. Glorfindel is one notable example this would apply to.

 

[Gasper]

Will more AP feats be calced? Like the one when Balrog breaks the top of the mountain?
Are there any other such feats?

 

[Tyranno223]

Will more AP feats be calced? Like the one when Balrog breaks the top of the mountain?
Are there any other such feats?

You'd need to contact a Calc Member. I tried to ask someone to Calc Uinen for example and no one's responded yet.

Experiment said he was going to Calc Osse lifting Numenor, but he hasn't done commented about that in months.

There's a bunch of potential calcs floating about but people need to do them.

 

[Hsharpe]

Does anyone know where these quotes come from?:

“Therefore since the creative power of Eru was infinite (both outside and within the confines of His great Design in which we have part)”

“I am historically minded. Middle-earth is not an imaginary world. The name is the modern form (appearing in the 13th century and still in use) of midden-erd > middel-erd, an ancient name for the oikoumene, the abiding place of Men, the objectively real world, in use specifically opposed to imaginary worlds (as Fairyland) or unseen worlds (as Heaven or Hell). The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the historical period is imaginary.”

I assume these are the “Real World” quotes.

 

[Hsharpe]

And another question, when are the pages for Sauron, Morgoth, Eru, etc. gonna get updated to the new Tiers? Just curious btw, definitely not impatient like Sauron

 

[Gasper]

Does anyone know where these quotes come from?:

“Therefore since the creative power of Eru was infinite (both outside and within the confines of His great Design in which we have part)”

“I am historically minded. Middle-earth is not an imaginary world. The name is the modern form (appearing in the 13th century and still in use) of midden-erd > middel-erd, an ancient name for the oikoumene, the abiding place of Men, the objectively real world, in use specifically opposed to imaginary worlds (as Fairyland) or unseen worlds (as Heaven or Hell). The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the historical period is imaginary.”

I assume these are the “Real World” quotes.

Tolkien's letters i think.

 

[Tyranno223]

And another question, when are the pages for Sauron, Morgoth, Eru, etc. gonna get updated to the new Tiers? Just curious btw, definitely not impatient like Sauron

The new system has been accepted but not implemented yet. We can't do anything there until it is implemented.

 

[Hsharpe]

The new system has been accepted but not implemented yet. We can't do anything there until it is implemented.

Alright, understood.

 

[Tyranno223]

I keep realising I missed stuff in the Part 1 of the Individual Revision posts. Forgot to mention Legolas should get Mid-Low Regen when I even outright mention Elves having better regen than the Numenoreans.

Oh well, at least this can be submitted with the other Elves.

 

[Gasper]

When will Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Boromir etc revisions be applied?

No rush of course.

 

[Tyranno223]

When will Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Boromir etc revisions be applied?

No rush of course.

Not sure.

Part of it's because I'm just not feeling very motivated recently. I've been going out (touching grass) doing stuff lately that happens to take up my energy. I'll probably get it done once I'm in an extended period where I just stay at home.