Lord of the Rings Discussion Thread

[Tyranno223]

Calculation Requests Thread (New forum)

It just vanished and that's it. That lack of additional context means there's pretty much objectively no way you could get this higher. Three feats of a moon exploding, and no signs of sharps...Except for the first, I guess Damm, that is a shame

vsbattles.com

Leaving this here in case anyone wants a go at calcing.

 

[Hsharpe]

So, there’s this guy named ‘@papapalps2415’ on YT, and he’s by far the biggest SW meatrider and biggest LOTR downplayer I’ve come across. He even says that a single ISD can kill Melkor and that Melkor and Valar aren’t past Planetary. If you guys can provide debunks to this downplay it would do wonders.

 

[DOOMSLAYER127]

So, there’s this guy named ‘@papapalps2415’ on YT, and he’s by far the biggest SW meatrider and biggest LOTR downplayer I’ve come across. He even says that a single ISD can kill Melkor and that Melkor and Valar aren’t past Planetary. If you guys can provide debunks to this downplay it would do wonders.

SW referring star wars here?

 

[Hsharpe]

SW referring star wars here?

Yes

 

[DOOMSLAYER127]

Yes

Hmm okay

He even says that a single ISD can kill Melkor and that Melkor and Valar aren’t past Planetary.

Melkor when he first came to Arda was powerful and he along with the Valar can't be destroyed in their spirit forms. They are clearly way above planetary due to the fact that they shaped the Universe in the beginning. Does this 'ISD' have that kinda AP to destroy them?
Well I think Tyranno can give better debunks than me with quotes.

 

[Tyranno223]

Most of what I'd say is already on profile. Not like it's necessary to even respond to this kind of nonsense.

Though I guess here's two prominent links for the Valar.

Imgur

Imgur: The magic of the Internet

imgur.com

 

[Hsharpe]

Most of what I'd say is already on profile. Not like it's necessary to even respond to this kind of nonsense.

Though I guess here's two prominent links for the Valar.

Imgur

Imgur: The magic of the Internet

imgur.com

I can’t access the links.

 

[Hsharpe]

Also, this is the guy that says an ISD can kill Melkor and... y'know what, I'll just let the rest of the pictures speak for themselves (hopefully they work as links since I can't send pictures)

file:///Users/haydensharpe/Desktop/Screenshot%202024-06-10%20at%208.42.37%20PM.jpg

file:///Users/haydensharpe/Desktop/Screenshot%202024-06-10%20at%208.41.03%20PM.jpg

And the source for these screenshots are from this video:


If you can't access the screenshots, go to the comment of someone named '@darkunor6687' and look through the replies.

 

[Tyranno223]

Also, this is the guy that says an ISD can kill Melkor and... y'know what, I'll just let the rest of the pictures speak for themselves (hopefully they work as links since I can't send pictures)

file:///Users/haydensharpe/Desktop/Screenshot%202024-06-10%20at%208.42.37%20PM.jpg

file:///Users/haydensharpe/Desktop/Screenshot%202024-06-10%20at%208.41.03%20PM.jpg

And the source for these screenshots are from this video:

Eh, this seems to have been made for fun if anything.

Regardless, no need to get too worked up over stuff like this at the end of the day.

 

[Hsharpe]

Eh, this seems to have been made for fun if anything.

Regardless, no need to get too worked up over stuff like this at the end of the day.

Alright, I'll take your word for it. I just, can't handle LOTR downplay for any longer; I'm like Hulk, on the verge of going into a fit of anger because of all this downplay.

And yeah, the video was definitely made for fun, not involving any downplay or favoritism. But it's the comments (at least some) that do the downplaying and favoritism.

 

[Tyranno223]

Alright, I'll take your word for it. I just, can't handle LOTR downplay for any longer; I'm like Hulk, on the verge of going into a fit of anger because of all this downplay.

And yeah, the video was definitely made for fun, not involving any downplay or favoritism. But it's the comments (at least some) that do the downplaying and favoritism.

Everyone has their quibbles, but best not to get too bothered over something like Battleboarding.

Admittedly though I'm not great either. I'm kinda a Book purist for LotR so when I see "inaccurate" stuff (at least from my opinion) I get pissy.

Heck, originally I was a downplayer since I came to this site to downgrade the verse minus Eru to 5-B at best until I did more research (then got wrapped up in supporting a tier 1 upgrade and stuff). Tbh, i'm still not a fan of how many characters are High 3-A personally speaking, but I'll support it unless I find reason not to.

 

[Hsharpe]

Everyone has their quibbles, but best not to get too bothered over something like Battleboarding.

Admittedly though I'm not great either. I'm kinda a Book purist for LotR so when I see "inaccurate" stuff (at least from my opinion) I get pissy.

Heck, originally I was a downplayer since I came to this site to downgrade the verse minus Eru to 5-B at best until I did more research (then got wrapped up in supporting a tier 1 upgrade and stuff). Tbh, i'm still not a fan of how many characters are High 3-A personally speaking, but I'll support it unless I find reason not to.

Now that, is character development for you right there. I initially upgraded Eru to Outerversal without any evidence solely because of the fact that it looked so… downplayed.

But now, seeing the Tier 1 Upgrade and the fact I (kinda) predicted so far back, I feel kind of proud of myself for it. Though that could just be me.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2024/06/death-battle-predictions-sinestro-vs.html opinions on this

 

[Tyranno223]

https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2024/06/death-battle-predictions-sinestro-vs.html opinions on this

Solid. Very solid. Although, I don't agree with everything of course. For one, I don't get why they attribute teleportation instead of speed.

Edit: I wouldn't personally use Lost Road in case anyone gets the idea to try and apply it here. It's from an idea Tolkien left up in the air like Dagor Dagorath, but even worse given steampunk Numenor definetly was not in the later editions.

 

[Hsharpe]

I have a little question.

Where would the Ainur be on the Kardashev scale, both Within the Confines of Eä and Prior to Entering Eä?

 

[Tyranno223]

I have a little question.

Where would the Ainur be on the Kardashev scale, both Within the Confines of Eä and Prior to Entering Eä?

Beyond Eä? Well they don't really exist as a traditional civilisation.

Within, they are capable of creating things such as the Two Lamps or Two Trees that can both light the entire world (albeit it was flat at the time but even the lesser Sun can do the same). The Two Lamps when destroyed marred Arda on such a level the damage couldn't be undone on even a conceptual level.

That aside, the mere Light of the Two Trees were used to make the Silmarils so a High 3-A power source there. But this was largely a one off thing since the Valar could never recreate such a feat.

Basically anywhere from Type 1 to Type 3 (for the original scale at least).

 

[Hsharpe]

… This is honestly just sad on so many levels

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/fingolfin-the-silmarillion-vs-adam-taurus-rwby.827167/

I take pity for whoever thinks Adam has even the slightest chance of winning

 

[Hsharpe]

And also, one question.

How was Sauron able to dominate the minds of the Nazgûl if there’s the Barrier of Unwill? Did Sauron find a way to bypass it, or was it something else?

 

[Tyranno223]

And also, one question.

How was Sauron able to dominate the minds of the Nazgûl if there’s the Barrier of Unwill? Did Sauron find a way to bypass it, or was it something else?

Well the natural state of the mind is "openness" in the Legendarium, the "barrier of unwill" is literal, it is there once a person does not desire their mind to be seen. Until then, the mind is open.

Obviously this is more easy for those with actual mental abilities. The Nazgûl did have 3 Númenóreans with likely mental capacity, but the others would not. But of course, even the mere lack of consent or distrust would cause the barrier to manifest.

But the Nazgûl "consented" to Sauron in the sense that they accepted and freely used the Rings. There is thus no real barrier to constant temptation there.

But the Rings did not purely target the mind but their being. By wearing them so long that they degenerated into Wraiths, they were tied to their respective Rings of Power. Their existence bound to them. These Rings were in turn subordinates to the Ruling Ring and Sauron had control of their wills as they were bound to it.

When he lost the One Ring, he still had command of them as he had possession of their Rings and kept them on his person.

TLDR: The Nazgûl probably consented meaning no barrier. Otherwise, their beings are subject to their and Sauron's Rings which are under Sauron's control.

 

[Hsharpe]

Say, are there any quotes proving the Invulnerability of the Ainur?

Because it says that Gandalf can't be harmed by mortal weapons, but are there any other examples of other Maiar (or even Valar) showing this kind of Invulnerability?

 

[Tyranno223]

Say, are there any quotes proving the Invulnerability of the Ainur?

Because it says that Gandalf can't be harmed by mortal weapons, but are there any other examples of other Maiar (or even Valar) showing this kind of Invulnerability?

Any unbolded ability/resistance is a holdover that is pending revision.

 

[Hsharpe]

Since Pre-Eä Melkor and the Pre-Eä Ainur are undergoing revisions for 1-A, I think this deserves a rematch:

The Dovahkiin vs Morgoth

The Dovahkii vs Morgoth Low 2-C. Fus Ro Dah The Dovahkiin: 10 (Ogbunabali, Keeweed, SheevShezarinne, Darth Descender, Schwxnz, The Archdemon, Waria, StarSlayer666, Kong, Paul Frank, TOAAPRESENCE1) Morgoth:

vsbattles.com

Or rather, have it removed from Morgoth's Notable Losses if possible (but if not that's fine really, I'm just recommending it cuz it's gonna be hella confusing seeing a Low 1-C/1-A character losing to a Low 2-C character)

 

[Tyranno223]

Probably should request for it to be removed here for being outdated as hfil.

Versus Thread Removal Requests (New forum)

This thread is created for the purpose of removing outdated or stomp versus threads from profiles that are administrator-protected. Here are the regulations that need to be followed: Kindly post links to the threads, along with the characters involved in the thread. Provide reasons as to why...

vsbattles.com

 

[LazerDim8000]

Since Pre-Eä Melkor and the Pre-Eä Ainur are undergoing revisions for 1-A, I think this deserves a rematch:

The Dovahkiin vs Morgoth

The Dovahkii vs Morgoth Low 2-C. Fus Ro Dah The Dovahkiin: 10 (Ogbunabali, Keeweed, SheevShezarinne, Darth Descender, Schwxnz, The Archdemon, Waria, StarSlayer666, Kong, Paul Frank, TOAAPRESENCE1) Morgoth:

vsbattles.com

Or rather, have it removed from Morgoth's Notable Losses if possible (but if not that's fine really, I'm just recommending it cuz it's gonna be hella confusing seeing a Low 1-C/1-A character losing to a Low 2-C character)

I mean if daedric princes get upgraded to 1a, dovahkhiin and other prisoners would get 1a hax and might possibly be 1a in tier

 

[Tyranno223]

I mean if daedric princes get upgraded to 1a, dovahkhiin and other prisoners are would get 1a hax and might possibly be 1a in tier

Neat. Could be a decent match-up.

LotR will get a few tier 0 resistances due to Eru. Not sure if the Ainur are 1-A or High 1-A+ tho since Ultima never got back to me.

 

[Hsharpe]

Do the Balrogs ever demonstrate the Low-Godly Regen of other Ainur?

Cause I feel like the Balrogs, at least in that aspect, are closer to the Incarnate Wizards like Gandalf, Saruman, etc.

 

[Hsharpe]

Question: is the indestructibility of souls in Middle-earth in únat like the barrier of unwill?

Could Eru really destroy them if He wanted to? And if He could, why doesn’t He do it?

 

[Tyranno223]

Do the Balrogs ever demonstrate the Low-Godly Regen of other Ainur?

Cause I feel like the Balrogs, at least in that aspect, are closer to the Incarnate Wizards like Gandalf, Saruman, etc.

Not in practice. It's likely they've either become incarnate like their lord Morgoth or used so much of their power that they're past the point of recovery in terms of their loss in power (this being the only way to stop their regen).

In LotR power when invested is lost unless enough time is spent to recover (and even then, it cannot always be recovered or repeated).

Question: is the indestructibility of souls in Middle-earth in únat like the barrier of unwill?

Could Eru really destroy them if He wanted to? And if He could, why doesn’t He do it?

Yes, it's almost certainly an únat (the ability to enforce the impossible being a quality of Eru). Yes, if He wanted to, He probably could. Eru is the sustainer of free-will and the reason why souls with free-will are invulnerable.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

If Aragorn died in the Battle of the Black Gate, who would be next in line to succeed him?

 

[Tyranno223]

If Aragorn died in the Battle of the Black Gate, who would be next in line to succeed him?

For the short answer, no one probably. He might have kinsfolk (like Halbarad but he was also dead by then), but not anyone else from the direct line. Gondor would default back to Stewardship under a sad Faramir.

For the long answer, still no but there is a specific reason why Aragorn being of the direct line of Isildur through Arvedui and his eldest son is necessary. This is as the claim Aragorn has to the Throne of Gondor is through the female line (as Arvedui, last King of Arthedain/Arnor married the daughter of Ondoher, King of Gondor) as all other claimants to Gondor's throne were either dead or their claims were too weak (since many noble houses had married into the House of Anárion).

Moreover, Aragorn had the necessary prestige to push his claim. This is important as the previous attempt by Arvedui to claim Gondor's throne had failed as despite his wife being the daughter of the deceased king (with Ondoher and his sons being slain in battle at the time) and himself arguing Isildur never relinquished his kingship over Gondor, he has failes (Isildur and his brother Anárion were joint-kings of Gondor under their father the High King Elendil until Anárion and Elendil died in the Last Alliance and Isildur went north to Arnor and died on the way while leaving Anárion's son Meneldil in charge).

This is because Arvedui lacked the prestige needed to claim the throne of Gondor as Arnor was a distant land and despite being sibling nations descended from fallen Númenor, Arnor and its concerns at this time was considered by the rich and powerful nation of Gondor as trifling.

Aragorn had gained prestige by serving years in Gondor's army under the alias of Thorongil and by his deeds at the Pelennor Field as well as by demonstrating his healing prowess (an attribute of the Kings). If Aragorn died none of his kinsfolk (if any survived) would have the same needed claim through the female line of Anárion to claim the throne of Gondor and the Kingdom of Arnor at this point had long since fallen so there is no throne to claim there (Aragorn having restored it in the Fourth Age).

 

[Hsharpe]

When Sauron looked through Pippin’s mind with the Palantír, why didn’t Pippin just shun him out with the Barrier of Unwill? Is there a stated reason for this?

This question would go for others who use Palantír like Saruman, Aragorn, etc.

 

[Tyranno223]

Using a Palantir to communicate kinda necessitates a degree of "openess" given that it is just a form of mind communication/osanwe.

But as to why they can't just put the barrier up, well they probably have. In fact we know Sauron could not enter Denethor's mind due to the barrier of unwill.

The barrier of unwill is a specific form of a resistance. One cannot enter an unwilling mind no matter what. But this does not prevent torture or pain from being inflicted on a mind. Minds can be dominated and broken, with fear and pain being tools used by Sauron and Morgoth to enter minds (alongside charm, intimidation, and deceit).

Against Pippin, the Book version had Pippin tell Sauron nothing, but it is said that if Sauron wanted to, he could have easily broken Pippin into telling him information. The barrier of unwill cannot be directly broken and so characters bypass it by forcing "consent".

 

[Hsharpe]

Do the Ainur rely on Magic to use their other abilities i.e Concept Manip, Precognition, Matter Manip, etc. or is their Magic merely a side ability separate from their other abilities?

And could the Ainur have resistance to Anti-Magic or other Magic-negating abilities, such as the Mysterium metal and Iron Man’s Mysterium armor from Marvel Comics?

 

[Tyranno223]

Eh, that's a topic that's not entirely clear since LotR "magic" isn't exactly laid out clearly for us outside Letter 155 which mostly breaks down the types of magic. Tbh, characters who use magic don't even consider it "magic".

Anyway, "In Tolkien's Legendarium, magic of all kinds falls under two categories, "magia" and "goeteia".[13] Magia produces "real results", be it the creation of fire or the summoning of lightning. Goeteia produces illusory effects, be it for art or deception. These powers are not ordinarily capable of learned but are instead an inherent ability to those races that can be considered "magical". As evidenced by Sauron and Gandalf, this includes the Ainur.[13]"

• This includes such things as the "Songs of Power"

The abilities of the Ainur are "magic" and their very existence is "magical". But magic in LotR isn't quite like magic in other fiction as it's less a system of mystical arts but rather a literal state of being. Being "magical" is how you can perform supernatural things, and such things cannot be learned naturally. It is an inherent power and thing.

The Ainur do not so much rely on "magic", but rather magic is what they do. In the same vein as us breathing does Manwë blow the winds. Do they resist anti-magic? Well Gandalf and the Balrog did perform counter-spells on one another until the door they were fighting over exploded so... idk? They don't have a specific resistance to anti-magic, no.

That being said, not everything they do is simply resisted by being "magic" as their command over matter and concepts is more akin to them controlling extensions of their body.

 

[Hsharpe]

Could any of the Ainur or High-Elves resist Time Manipulation and its respective branches (i.e Time Stop, Time Slow, Time Erasure, Time Acceleration, etc.)?

 

[Tyranno223]

Could any of the Ainur or High-Elves resist Time Manipulation and its respective branches (i.e Time Stop, Time Slow, Time Erasure, Time Acceleration, etc.)?

In their origin, the Ainur are utterly above and beyond time as a concept.

Within Eä, the Ainur can move up to Immeasurable speeds in the spirit form (even in Eä. I forgot to change this last time they were unlocked). Time Stop, Acceleration, and Slow would do nothing to them in that state. Time Erasure, idk.

All LotR characters also have Acausality (Type 2) meaning their future and past is immutable. You can't time travel to kill their present.

High-Elves and Ainur are immortal so aging does nothing (unless you go beyond the world's end for the former) although the former might get physically weaker over a long long span of time. Depends on if they're in Valinor/Under the influence of the Three Rings, or if they're not.

 

[Hsharpe]

What would the abilities of the Silmarils be, based on what’s said about them?

 

[Hsharpe]

Could something like the Omnitrix copy the powers and resistances of the High-Elves or the Ainur? Could their Immortality be copied as well?

 

[Tyranno223]

What would the abilities of the Silmarils be, based on what’s said about them?

Not something I researched much. They give off a holy light, burn any evil/impure/mortal that touches them, can be broken to restore the Two Trees, etc. Also can be used to empower a user.

Could something like the Omnitrix copy the powers and resistances of the High-Elves or the Ainur? Could their Immortality be copied as well?

Idk? They don't really have resistances to being copied, albeit, the soul is unique in LotR.

Probably not the Ainur in their origin once revisions are through (still discussing with Ultima). They're way beyond Ben 10.

 

[Hsharpe]

Idk? They don't really have resistances to being copied, albeit, the soul is unique in LotR.

Considering the Omnitrix needs DNA to copy something, I think that the Ainur could simply discard their body or alter it so it wouldn't have any kind of DNA in it (do their physical forms even naturally have DNA to begin with?), therefore meaning the Omnitrix wouldn't be able to copy their abilities. And since souls, to my knowledge, don't have DNA, the Omnitrix won't be able to copy that either.

Not sure if Elves have DNA though, but I'm certain they do.