Lord of the Rings Discussion Thread

[Hsharpe]

Also I remember something said in one of Tolkien's Letters about "limitless extensions of time and space." Theoretically if this is referring to Eä, would this make the Greater Maiar and the Valar (as well as others who can compare to them) 2-A aka Multiverse level+? And if you may be wondering, the description for 2-A goes as follows:

"2-A: Multiverse level+​

Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting, creating and/or destroying a countably infinite number of separate space-time continuums." - Tiering System

 

[Tyranno223]

Also I remember something said in one of Tolkien's Letters about "limitless extensions of time and space." Theoretically if this is referring to Eä, would this make the Greater Maiar and the Valar (as well as others who can compare to them) 2-A aka Multiverse level+? And if you may be wondering, the description for 2-A goes as follows:

"2-A: Multiverse level+​

Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting, creating and/or destroying a countably infinite number of separate space-time continuums." - Tiering System

I feel like this has been asked before. No, the Valar only have control over the matter of the universe, aka High 3-A. Even if they had power over time, it would be Low 2-C. It's not a separate space-time.

 

[Tyranno223]

Considering the Omnitrix needs DNA to copy something, I think that the Ainur could simply discard their body or alter it so it wouldn't have any kind of DNA in it (do their physical forms even naturally have DNA to begin with?), therefore meaning the Omnitrix wouldn't be able to copy their abilities. And since souls, to my knowledge, don't have DNA, the Omnitrix won't be able to copy that either.

Not sure if Elves have DNA though, but I'm certain they do.

Elves should have DNA. The Ainur make their physical forms as "genuine" things so those should have DNA. However, since Ainur are in truth spirits, the DNA would only be of the physical form's traits and nothing more. For instance, Ainur in the fomr of trees would have tree DNA I assume.

 

[Hsharpe]

Yo, so which text in Morgoth's Ring does this come from?:

“For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own's will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant. Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they're not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgment of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fëa from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.” - I'm aware it's from Myths Transformed, but considering certain stuff from Morgoth's Ring are labeled with 'Text ?' in the references, I'm curious as to where this one in particular comes from

 

[Hsharpe]

And another question, can the Ainur control elements outside of their own? For example, Manwë has control over the wind and sky, but can he control water and fire?

 

[Tyranno223]

Yo, so which text in Morgoth's Ring does this come from?:

“For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own's will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant. Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they're not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgment of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fëa from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.” - I'm aware it's from Myths Transformed, but considering certain stuff from Morgoth's Ring are labeled with 'Text ?' in the references, I'm curious as to where this one in particular comes from

OF RE-BIRTH AND OTHER DOOMS OF THOSE THAT GO TO MANDOS.(33)

And another question, can the Ainur control elements outside of their own? For example, Manwë has control over the wind and sky, but can he control water and fire?

In theory, yes.

"The Eldar believed that “spirits”, and the more so as they had greater inherent native powers, could “emit” their influence to make contact with or act upon things exterior to themselves: primarily and most easily upon other spirits, or upon the fëar of Incarnates; but also in the case of the greater Máyar (of whom the Valar were the chief) directly upon physical things without the mediacy of corporeal instruments. [fn2] [6] This direct action upon things was held to be quite different from direct calling of attention from other spirits. The latter was a natural operation within one mode of being, it being of the nature of spirits to be aware of one another. The former was an exhalation of dominance of one mode over another; and according to the Eldar all exertions of dominance make demands upon those who exert the power – something of their “spirit” is expelled, and transferred to the thing in a lower mode. Hence all tyrants slowly consume themselves, or transfer their power to things, and can only control it so long as they can [?possess or control the thing with its?] but power is dissipated. So Morgoth had become in fact less powerful than the other Valar, and much of his native power had passed into things [?? diminished?]"

"But the Eldar held that “spirits”, the more as they had more native inherent power, could emit their influence to make contact with or act upon things exterior to themselves: primarily upon other spirits, or other incarnate persons (via their fëar), but also in the case of great spirits (such as the Valar or greater máyar) directly upon physical things without the mediacy of bodies normally necessary in the case of “fairondi” or incarnates. To describe this they used (but by deliberate symbolism – taken e.g. from such cases as their breathing upon a cold or frosted surface, which √ √was then melted) the √thū- (or √sū). In addition Manwë, the most powerful spirit in Arda, in this respect was Lord of Air and Winds, and the winds were in primitive Eldarin thought to be especially his emission of power for himself."

"The words used to describe this action or emission of “power” were derived (apparently) by analogy from emission of breath, and such physical phenomena as breathing upon frost (which melts). In addition Manwë, who was held to be Lord of Air and Winds, was the most powerful of the Valar in this respect, and the most powerful spirit in Arda."

In essence, the Ainur are capable of using powers outside their direct purview, but this is done but exerting their power upon things. This takes power from them to do (not noticeable at first considering how long it took Melkor/Morgoth to weaken) but eventually it can be draining. Though as long as they don't go to the point of crippling, they can recover.

 

[Hsharpe]

OF RE-BIRTH AND OTHER DOOMS OF THOSE THAT GO TO MANDOS.(33)

That's in Part Three, right?

 

[Tyranno223]

That's in Part Three, right?

I believe so.

 

[Hsharpe]

I believe so.

Funnily enough, I now have a PDF of Morgoth's Ring, so I'll try and see for myself.

Edit: Yep, confirmed it; it's also under 'II THE SECOND PHASE.' of the same Part

 

[Hsharpe]

How exactly do the Ainur get Immeasurable speed even within Eä? Mainly looking for the quote because I was mistakenly using the Prior to entering Eä statements for the Immeasurable speeds.

Or was it the same quote that was being used for their Prior to entering Eä keys?

 

[FuriousFieryFist]

So with the new wiki tiering changes is there any potential for a higher tiered Eru Illuvitar?

 

[Tyranno223]

How exactly do the Ainur get Immeasurable speed even within Eä? Mainly looking for the quote because I was mistakenly using the Prior to entering Eä statements for the Immeasurable speeds.

Or was it the same quote that was being used for their Prior to entering Eä keys?

The source is on profile. I just forgot to adjust the actual rating. Essentially the Ainur can still move through time, albeit with limits for the future.

So with the new wiki tiering changes is there any potential for a higher tiered Eru Illuvitar?

Yes. Ultima and I are discussing the tiers. Eru is 0. The Ainur in their origin are being discussed and I'm arguing for High 1-A+.

 

[Hsharpe]

Question: Why did Eru make souls indestructible in the first place? Is there any in-lore explanation for this?

 

[Tyranno223]

Question: Why did Eru make souls indestructible in the first place? Is there any in-lore explanation for this?

No explanation. It's just the Christian view of things.

 

[Hsharpe]

No explanation. It's just the Christian view of things.

I see.

 

[Hsharpe]

Which quote exactly demonstrates that the Ainur can ignore physical durability and attack the soul directly?

And also, do the Ainur retain their Type 4 Acausality and Higher-Dimensional Existence even within Eä?

 

[Tyranno223]

Which quote exactly demonstrates that the Ainur can ignore physical durability and attack the soul directly?

And also, do the Ainur retain their Type 4 Acausality and Higher-Dimensional Existence even within Eä?

The soul stuff is on the powers and resistances page. Essentially they can emit their influence directly on a soul and Ainur like Morgoth did that to impair souls for instance.

No, they have bound themselves to Eä in thise keys. They are no longer transcendent.

 

[Hsharpe]

Are there any quotes stating the Ainur are sub-creators, or at least alluding to them as such?

 

[Tyranno223]

Are there any quotes stating the Ainur are sub-creators, or at least alluding to them as such?

Yes. I believe they should be on page.

 

[Hsharpe]

Yes. I believe they should be on page.

By any chance, do you have a link to them? Or at least, could you potentially tell me which links on their pages have them? Thank you.

 

[Tyranno223]

By any chance, do you have a link to them? Or at least, could you potentially tell me which links on their pages have them? Thank you.

"The Ainur took part in the making of the world as 'sub-creators': in various degrees, after this fashion. They interpreted according to their powers, and completed in detail, the Design propounded to them by the One. This was propounded first in musical or abstract form, and then in an 'historical vision'. In the first interpretation, the vast Music of the Ainur, Melkor introduced alterations, not interpretations of the mind of the One, and great discord arose. The One then presented this 'Music', including the apparent discords, as a visible 'history'."

Is one quote from the Letters. 212 to be precise.

 

[Hsharpe]

"The Ainur took part in the making of the world as 'sub-creators': in various degrees, after this fashion. They interpreted according to their powers, and completed in detail, the Design propounded to them by the One. This was propounded first in musical or abstract form, and then in an 'historical vision'. In the first interpretation, the vast Music of the Ainur, Melkor introduced alterations, not interpretations of the mind of the One, and great discord arose. The One then presented this 'Music', including the apparent discords, as a visible 'history'."

Is one quote from the Letters. 212 to be precise.

Alright, thanks.

 

[Hsharpe]

And also, I recall that Tolkien and the Writers are Sub-Creators as well. Are there quotes for this too?

And does the Legendarium have Modal Realism? If so, are there quotes directly stating or alluding such?

 

[Tyranno223]

And also, I recall that Tolkien and the Writers are Sub-Creators as well. Are there quotes for this too?

Yes. Letter 153 is a good example of this. Sub-creation is, after all, any creative act within God's work that is not of the Creator's direct hand. The creative efforts of created beings.

Anyone, elves, dwarves, humans, etc can thus do sub-creative acts (although only the Ainur and literal real writers are described as "Sub-creators")

"...liberation 'from the channels the creator is known to have used already' is the fundamental function of 'sub-creation', a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety, one of the ways in which indeed it is exhibited..." - Letter 153

"Great harm can be done, of course, by this potent mode of 'myth' – especially wilfully. The right to 'freedom' of the sub-creator is no guarantee among fallen men that it will not be used as wickedly as is Free Will. I am comforted by the fact that some, more pious and learned than I, have found nothing harmful in this Tale or its feignings as a 'myth'. ...." - Letter 153

And does the Legendarium have Modal Realism? If so, are there quotes directly stating or alluding such?

"...liberation 'from the channels the creator is known to have used already' is the fundamental function of 'sub-creation', a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety, one of the ways in which indeed it is exhibited..."- Letter 153

We aren't given much details on Tolkien's specific view on other universes parallel to the Legendarium, but he does comment that a sub-creators Creation (a written work in this case) is but a single tribute to God's infinite variety. In essence, one of all possible possibilities.

"...our Real World does not appear to be wholly coherent either; and I am actually not myself convinced that, though in every world on every plane all must ultimately be under the Will of God, even in ours there are not some 'tolerated' sub-creational counterfeits!)..."- Letter 153

In short, he kinda does, but not in much detail.

 

[Gasper]

This statement here mentions that Eru is unmoved. Idk if this was already brought up here or not.

 

[Hsharpe]

So, assuming Eärendil gets a profile on the Wiki, what abilities would he have, and what Tier would he be around?

 

[Tyranno223]

"Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?)".

Nice explanation as to why Fallen Maiar don't come back after being bodily slain. Seems Fallen Maiar don't tend to return because they are damned to impotence.

Albeit, only after being "earthbound".

So, assuming Eärendil gets a profile on the Wiki, what abilities would he have, and what Tier would he be around?

At the moment he'd scale to Ancalagon flat out for killing him. He'd get elven abilities and resistances and maybe some stuff from the Silmaril.

Not sure if he'd count as a "High Elf" in the sense of one who saw the Two Trees though. Probably not.

 

[Hsharpe]

At the moment he'd scale to Ancalagon flat out for killing him. He'd get elven abilities and resistances and maybe some stuff from the Silmaril.

Not sure if he'd count as a "High Elf" in the sense of one who saw the Two Trees though. Probably not.

So basically High 7-A, possibly High 3-A? Gotchu.

Also, thoughts on this banger song for Fingolfin?:

 

[Hsharpe]

Did Númenor ever have access to Mithril? If so, did they use it for their weapons, armor, structures, clothing, etc.?

 

[Tyranno223]

Did Númenor ever have access to Mithril? If so, did they use it for their weapons, armor, structures, clothing, etc.?

Yes. Mithril was mined on Númenor.

The Fountain Guard in Minas Tirith wears Mithril helmets inherited from Númenor (or from made during Gondor's height with traded Mithril).

 

[Hsharpe]

Yes. Mithril was mined on Númenor.

The Fountain Guard in Minas Tirith wears Mithril helmets inherited from Númenor (or from made during Gondor's height with traded Mithril).

I see. Do you think Númenor would be worthy of getting its own profile on the Wiki soon? If so, I'd be willing to make it.

 

[Hsharpe]

And also, would the Ainur in their origin have Plot Manipulation due to being Sub-creators, or at least Limited Plot Manip? Or not at all?

 

[Tyranno223]

I see. Do you think Númenor would be worthy of getting its own profile on the Wiki soon? If so, I'd be willing to make it.

A civilization page? Go ahead if you want. I don't really have any plans to make one of those besides maybe Valinor down the line. I don't think it'd be that interesting for a powerscaling index.

And also, would the Ainur in their origin have Plot Manipulation due to being Sub-creators, or at least Limited Plot Manip? Or not at all?

No, not really. While I have discussed with Ultima about things that put Ainur on a similar level of existence with other Sub-creators, it wouldn't give them Plot Manipulation.

 

[Hsharpe]

How much energy would the light of a single Silmaril produce, and what could it be calc'ed to?

And also, how far exactly did Eärendil travel to receive the Massively FTL+ rating? Did he travel beyond the "observable universe" or the borders of the galaxy?

 

[Tyranno223]

How much energy would the light of a single Silmaril produce, and what could it be calc'ed to?

And also, how far exactly did Eärendil travel to receive the Massively FTL+ rating? Did he travel beyond the "observable universe" or the borders of the galaxy?

I dunno, you'd have to calc that. The 3 of them breaking can restore the Two Trees that light up the whole world of Arda, albeit we already have better feats for them anyway.

He travelled to a starless void. Dunno the nearest one, but the G1 blog put that in the Billion x FTL

 

[Hsharpe]

@Tyranno223 Assuming you were the one who made the Powers and Resistances of the Ainur page, is it alright if I can use that page on the All Fiction Battles wiki? I'm asking because I'm making a profile for Sauron on that wiki.

 

[Tyranno223]

@Tyranno223 Assuming you were the one who made the Powers and Resistances of the Ainur page, is it alright if I can use that page on the All Fiction Battles wiki? I'm asking because I'm making a profile for Sauron on that wiki.

I guess it's fine as long as there's no rules against it. Sure.

 

[Hsharpe]

Would Sauron have Type 8 Immortality due to his power and soul being bound to the One Ring?

 

[Tyranno223]

Would Sauron have Type 8 Immortality due to his power and soul being bound to the One Ring?

No. His soul and life are not bound to it in a way that preserves his life. It preserves his power and the health of his soul as a result. Ainur are deathless utterly.