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Lord of the Rings Discussion Thread

" In like manner, extortion of the secrets of a mind may seem to come from reading it by force in despite of its unwill, for the knowledge gained may at times appear to be as complete as any that could be obtained. Nonetheless it does not come from penetration of the barrier of unwill. There is indeed no axan that the barrier should not be forced, for it is únat, a thing impossible to be or to be done, and the greater the force exerted, the greater the resistance of the unwill. [12] But it is an axan universal that none shall directly by force or indirectly by fraud take from another what he has a right to hold and keep as his own."

The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, IX ÓSANWE-KENTA
 
Tyranno223 said:
" In like manner, extortion of the secrets of a mind may seem to come from reading it by force in despite of its unwill, for the knowledge gained may at times appear to be as complete as any that could be obtained. Nonetheless it does not come from penetration of the barrier of unwill. There is indeed no axan that the barrier should not be forced, for it is únat, a thing impossible to be or to be done, and the greater the force exerted, the greater the resistance of the unwill. [12] But it is an axan universal that none shall directly by force or indirectly by fraud take from another what he has a right to hold and keep as his own."

The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, IX ÓSANWE-KENTA
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Thank you
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Can Aragorn single-handedly defeat an army?
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In wiki? Depends on the army.

In story? It's highly unlikely unless it's a smaller army. In the Books, orcs in large enough numbers were capable of putting Finrod's life in danger. Said Finrod was later able to 1v1 Sauron in a magical duel and fist fight a werewolf to death.

Tolkien's interest was in telling a good story afterall, not powerscaling. Unless you're an Ainu or a terrifying being like the Witch-King who can win via fear, even the mightiest elf can't fight an entire army.

Aragorn can, however, single-handedly fight an army in the right conditions. He singlehandedly pushed the Uruks back in 3 charges at Helm's Deep, turned back a different Uruk advance with just Eomer, and was honestly a monster. He also came out of the entire Battle of Pelennor Fields with no injuries despite only coming with a 1000ish reinforcements for the 10000+ish Rohan + Gondor force against Mordor's say, 50 thousand? (no specific numbers, but it was a lot).
 
How much do Beren and Lúthien, children of Hurin, fall of Numenor, The lays of beleriand, the book of lost tales (part 1 and 2), the lost world, the shaping of Middle-Earth etc connect to Silmarillion?
 
Gasper said:
How much do Beren and Lúthien, children of Hurin, fall of Numenor, The lays of beleriand, the book of lost tales (part 1 and 2), the lost world, the shaping of Middle-Earth etc connect to Silmarillion?
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The first two are basically different versions of the stories told in The Silmarillion, the fandom argue that informations told there that don't directly contradict the official version can potentially be considered canon

The others AFAIR are volumes of the History of Middle Earth, which are even more sparse writings about the Middle Earth made by Tolkien throughout almost 60 years. Some things there end up never appearing in the final Legenderium, like this whale fella
 
Basically that, although I'll add that the Published Silmarillion is not as unassailable as J.R.R.'s books that were published when he was alive.

Christopher Tolkien commented in Peoples of Middle-Earth that he had made alterations he regretted/considered erroneous in hindsight and these can be contested areas.

See Eönwë personally overthrowing Morgoth at the War of Wrath or Gil-galad's parentage (should of just been Fingon in my opinion)
 
Was it ever explained who is Gothmog in LOTR: ROTK and Gothmog the Balrog?
Dosen't seem to be the same dude.
 
Gasper said:
Was it ever explained who is Gothmog in LOTR: ROTK and Gothmog the Balrog?
Dosen't seem to be the same dude.
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Gothmog the Balrog died at Gondolin fighting Ecthelion (who died too).

Gothmog in RotK is the Lieutenant of the Witch-King. We're not told what he is, but depictions range from a Wraith, to a Black Númenórean, to an Orc.

Personal opinion is that he was a Black Númenórean since mere orcs would not be Lieutenants to a Nazgûl. But LotR Online has a really fun depiction of Gothmog as the Wraith of a certain King which I really liked.
 
Is Silmarillion more canon than History of Middle-Earth, right?
Could you say they are technically equally canon on their own?
 
Gasper said:
Is Silmarillion more canon than History of Middle-Earth, right?
Could you say they are technically equally canon on their own?
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It's more canon in the sense that it is a published narrative, but it isn't more canon in the sense that it was Tolkien's final draft.

The Published Silmarillion was made by Christopher Tolkien from J.R.R Tolkien's drafts to make a mostly coherent story.

There is thus information that is not included that J.R.R approved of in his later years (and still works in canon unlike his ideas of a spherical world from the start) and information that is edited without J.R.R's approval (since he wasn't alive).

So to summarise my ramble, the Silmarillion is the version of events that we currently consider first while information from other texts like Nature or History of Middle-Earth is considered second. When information contradicts, then you evaluate based on context and coherency.

It's basically yes and no.

... I really need to get better at giving short answers.
 
Minor update on that Tolkien Scaling Document that was posted a while back. Yeah even the 1-B stuff is a result of misunderstanding. For one it says "Umbar" is a dimensional plane in its own right when "Umbar" is actually Quenya for "Fate" (Note: The City of Umbar is not named using Quenya) whereas Ambar is Quenya for "Doom".

The existence of other planes also doesn't matter as we don't have further context.

www.keithmathison.org

The Bombadil Enigma, Part Two: The Mroczkowski Letter

Several years ago, I wrote a lengthy blog post titled The Bombadil Enigma. In it, I examined the decades-long debate surrounding the character of Tom Bombadil in J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings. I looked at the various theories that have been suggested regarding who this character is and...
www.keithmathison.org www.keithmathison.org

This was used as a case for infinite dimensions and is a fascinating piece about Bombadil but it doesn't say anything about the hierarchy of planes. Sure they exist and touch each other but are the quantifiably or quantitatively superior? Inferior? Distinct at all? Dunno. Plus planes are often used by Tolkien in the same way we use the term universes - see Letter 153
  • "I am actually not myself convinced that, though in every world on every plane all must ultimately be under the Will of God, even in ours there are not some 'tolerated' sub-creational counterfeits!)"
However, there does appear to be a second degree of R>F by Eru and the Primary Reality over "The Creation" or the world "we" reside in. Cosmologically Tolkien and we exist in the Legendarium as the "real world". This is the world of the sub-creators of the sub-creations, the infinite secondary realities like Eä.

In contrast, Eru's "abode" is the Primary Reality to which even our world is the creation of the one Author of all, with the Ainur residing alongside him as finite companions to Eru's infinity.
 
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Tyranno223 said:
However, there does appear to be a second degree of R>F by Eru and the Primary Reality over "The Creation" or the world "we" reside in. Cosmologically Tolkien and we exist in the Legendarium as the "real world". This is the world of the sub-creators of the sub-creations, the infinite secondary realities like Eä.
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So 1A+ and higher?
Tyranno223 said:
In contrast, Eru's "abode" is the Primary Reality to which even our world is the creation of the one Author of all, with the Ainur residing alongside him as finite companions to Eru's infinity.
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Is this 'Author of all' referring to Eru's one of infinite potential varieties?
 
DOOMSLAYER127 said:
So 1A+ and higher?

Is this 'Author of all' referring to Eru's one of infinite potential varieties?
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Well Eru is a tier 0 candidate accoeding to Ultima but for the Ainur they be one layer higher into 1-A.

Eru is the only genuine author and free-will so it's just a title. That being said, Eru/God is infinite and we only ever see Him from finite gazes. Even the Ainur are called finite compared to Eru so whatever we see can be considered a limited understanding of God. Pretty sure you can find a quote for that somewhere in the Letters.
 
Tyranno223 said:
That being said, Eru/God is infinite and we only ever see Him from finite gazes. Even the Ainur are called finite compared to Eru so whatever we see can be considered a limited understanding of God. Pretty sure you can find a quote for that somewhere in the Letters.
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So these finite gazes of him are equal to the Ainur you mean?
 
DOOMSLAYER127 said:
So these finite gazes of him are equal to the Ainur you mean?
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No, Eru isn't presenting a finite avatar I'm just saying that we only understand Eru from finite viewpoints, it was an aside ramble.

Eru is basically viewed by Tolkien as Infinite compared to even the Ainur who themselves view sub-creations as fiction.
 
Tyranno223 said:
No, Eru isn't presenting a finite avatar I'm just saying that we only understand Eru from finite viewpoints, it was an aside ramble.

Eru is basically viewed by Tolkien as Infinite compared to even the Ainur who themselves view sub-creations as fiction.
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Hmmm interesting
 
Am i the only one here that absolutely hates Rings of Power tv show? I thought that abominable fanfiction was hilarious in the worst way possible.
 
Lord_Farquaad69420 said:
I wonder why they couldn't adapt the silmarillion tho
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Thank god they didn't. They would ruin it.
I legitimately think LOTR is peak of cinema and nothing will come even close to it no matter how much they try.
LOTR was shot on real locations, had one of the best armor and sword designers, one of the, if not THE best miniatures ever made, imo the best score ever, the casting is perfect, hell, even cinematography, VFX and acting is still one of the best in movie history.
There is a reason LOTR trilogy won 17 Oscars and made almost 3 billion worldwide combined.
 
Gasper said:
Thank god they didn't. They would ruin it.
I legitimately think LOTR is peak of cinema and nothing will come even close to it no matter how much they try.
LOTR was shot on real locations, had one of the best armor and sword designers, one of the, if not THE best miniatures ever made, imo the best score ever, the casting is perfect, hell, even cinematography, VFX and acting is still one of the best in movie history.
There is a reason LOTR trilogy won 17 Oscars and made almost 3 billion worldwide combined.
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Opinions on the hobbit, I think it’s overhated tho it didn’t need 3 movies 💀
 
Love the Movies, they were and still are peak Cinema.

But I genuinely love the Books a lot more which is saying something when the Movies are probably a contender for more favourite films.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
This is interesting. Have you the scans of that?
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Letter 153
"We differ entirely about the nature of the relation of sub-creation to Creation. I should have said that liberation 'from the channels the creator is known to have used already' is the fundamental function of 'sub-creation', a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety, one of the ways in which indeed it is exhibited, as indeed I said in the Essay. I am not a metaphysician; but I should have thought it a curious metaphysic – there is not one but many, indeed potentially innumerable ones that declared the channels known (in such a finite comer as we have any inkling of) to have been used, are the only possible ones, or efficacious, or possibly acceptable to and by Him!"

"Of course (since inevitably my world is highly imperfect even on its own plane nor made wholly coherent – our Real World does not appear to be wholly coherent either; and I am actually not myself convinced that, though in every world on every plane all must ultimately be under the Will of God, even in ours there are not some 'tolerated' sub-creational counterfeits!)"

Eru of course being Tolkien's conception of the Christian God - they are one and the same in his writing.
 
Tyranno223 said:

Letter 153
"We differ entirely about the nature of the relation of sub-creation to Creation. I should have said that liberation 'from the channels the creator is known to have used already' is the fundamental function of 'sub-creation', a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety, one of the ways in which indeed it is exhibited, as indeed I said in the Essay. I am not a metaphysician; but I should have thought it a curious metaphysic – there is not one but many, indeed potentially innumerable ones that declared the channels known (in such a finite comer as we have any inkling of) to have been used, are the only possible ones, or efficacious, or possibly acceptable to and by Him!"

"Of course (since inevitably my world is highly imperfect even on its own plane nor made wholly coherent – our Real World does not appear to be wholly coherent either; and I am actually not myself convinced that, though in every world on every plane all must ultimately be under the Will of God, even in ours there are not some 'tolerated' sub-creational counterfeits!)"

Eru of course being Tolkien's conception of the Christian God - they are one and the same in his writing.
Click to expand...
"Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job' except those imposed by his own finiteness? No bounds, but the laws of contradiction, I should think. But, of course, humility and an awareness of peril is required. A writer may be basically 'benevolent' according to his lights (as I hope I am) and yet not be 'beneficent' owing to error and stupidity. I would claim, if I did not think it presumptuous in one so ill-instructed, to have as one object the elucidation of truth, and the encouragement of good morals in this real world, by the ancient device of exemplifying them in unfamiliar embodiments, that may tend to 'bring them home'. But, of course, I may be in error (at some or all points): my truths may not be true, or they may be distorted : and the mirror I have made may be dim and cracked. But I should need to be fully convinced that anything I have 'feigned' is actually harmful, per se and not merely because misunderstood, before I should recant or rewrite anything."

Yeah, if you decide this is valid to use, then this is High 1-A+ in the future Tiering System, not 2-A. Assuming the revision passes (Fairly likely, at this rate), Eru should be pretty comfortably 0 with this, I think.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
"Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job' except those imposed by his own finiteness? No bounds, but the laws of contradiction, I should think. But, of course, humility and an awareness of peril is required. A writer may be basically 'benevolent' according to his lights (as I hope I am) and yet not be 'beneficent' owing to error and stupidity. I would claim, if I did not think it presumptuous in one so ill-instructed, to have as one object the elucidation of truth, and the encouragement of good morals in this real world, by the ancient device of exemplifying them in unfamiliar embodiments, that may tend to 'bring them home'. But, of course, I may be in error (at some or all points): my truths may not be true, or they may be distorted : and the mirror I have made may be dim and cracked. But I should need to be fully convinced that anything I have 'feigned' is actually harmful, per se and not merely because misunderstood, before I should recant or rewrite anything."

Yeah, if you decide this is valid to use, then this is High 1-A+ in the future Tiering System, not 2-A. Assuming the revisions passes (Fairly likely, at this rate), Eru should be pretty comfortably 0 with this, I think.
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Jeez. Then the Ainur in their origin would be High 1-A+ as a race? They exist above the sub-creations in the Primary Reality as well. Trying to understand Tier 1 boggles my mind.

Edit: Ah, I get it. Yeah, I missed the obvious point before me. So yeah, the Ainur wouldn't scale to High 1-A+.
 
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Tyranno223 said:
Seperate question Ultima, but do the Ainur existing within the same plane of existence (albeit as finite companions compared to Eru's infinity) enable them to go above 1-A?

Also would their existence be a problem for Eru?
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Eru is explicitly stated to not be a "god among gods" but something fundamentally above everything else, and the text goes out of its way to note that the Valar are ultimately no nearer to him than anything else is (Contextually, it seems the statement would apply to them before entering Ëa, too). So, I wouldn't say so, no. Don't think they influence each other at all, scaling-wise.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Eru is explicitly stated to not be a "god among gods" but something fundamentally above everything else, and the text goes out of its way to note that the Valar are ultimately no nearer to him than anything else is (Contextually, it seems the statement would apply to them before entering Ëa, too). So, I wouldn't say so, no. Don't think they influence each other at all, scaling-wise.
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Thanks you.

So R>F Eä and maybe R>F the "Real World" for 2 layers into 1-A for the Ainur as existences in the Primary Reality/Timeless Halls.

Meanwhile Eru should be solidly Tier 0 independently.

At least that's my understanding, hope that's right.
 
Unrelated, but shouldn't Morgoth as Melkor have either large size type 3 or 4 for being so tall that his head pierced clouds while still standing at the bottom of the ocean?
 
Gasper said:
Unrelated, but shouldn't Morgoth as Melkor have either large size type 3 or 4 for being so tall that his head pierced clouds while still standing at the bottom of the ocean.
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Probably, but Ainur can make their body whatever shape or size they want as long as it's in their power.

Arien can become big enough to be make up most of the Sun's body and Uinen's hair alone makes up the surface waters of Arda.

It's technically under their matter manipulation.
 
I already brought this up but i think this should be used for further proof of not only Morgoth being High 3-A but all Valar (who downscale from him), basically he can affect all of Arda (the whole planet if not solar system) and potentially the whole Eä (the physical Universe itself).

"For they hold that the failure of their hroar to endure in vitality unwearied as long as their fear - a process which was not observed until the later ages - is due to the Marring of Arda, and comes of the Shadow, and of the taint of Melkor that touches all the matter (or hroa)(8) of Arda, if not indeed of all Eä."

There's also this:
"even left alone he [Morgoth] could only have gone raging on till all was levelled again into a formless chaos. And yet even so he would have been defeated, because it would still have 'existed', independent of his own mind, and a world in potential."

Whatever that means.
 
Also, in unfinished tales, after Sauron's defeat, Aragorn and Gimly go to Isengard to uncover all the secrets and they find the crown of Isildur, this should imply that Saruman was working with Sauron for way before the Fellowship of the Ring began, if we take that as 100% canon that is.
 
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