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Lord of the Rings Discussion Thread

Having to repeatedly copy and paste the same thing for 50% of the Valar pages makes me think a bunch of them could use a merger.
 
This went quiet. Anyway, after the Moon pages are unlocked, I have one last bit of scaling to propose on the revision thread (downgrading the Nazgul to 9-B, likely Low 7-B to 7-A and having Aragorn scale), I plan on finally covering abilities.

Experiments put forward a lot of stuff for that already, but yeah, should be fun.
 
The G1 Blog estimated it as "billions of times" FTL by using the closest "starless void" to Earth (I forget the name).

It's too vague unfortunately.
 
By the way Natural, I'd like to go through the Ainur powers and resistances for the next revision.

If you find anything out of the way, let me know!
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
"Oh I'm in a speed-equalized match? Let me just...vanish into victory"
Click to expand...
Heh, following revisions they're gonna be pretty decently haxed as well.

NPI

Mind Manipulation

Probably Subjective Reality for the Low 1-C key

Sauron and Morgoth get Fear Manip enough to chase out a soul.

Matter Manipulation to mess with your opponent (though you would need to bloodlust the good ones)

Soul Manipulation able to move one in and out of bodies (possibly destroy them)

Speeds fast enough to time travel

Concept Manipulation (type 1 from the looks of it)

Fate Manipulation for the stronger ones (all keys)

And that's just most of the ones I'm currently aware of. Ainur should also resist most of this stuff too.
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
Can't wait for Gandalf to solo some verses
Click to expand...
Shame the Istari are kinda outliers due to their restricted nature. I'll need to look at their abilities seperate to the general overview. Don't think his wizard form gets much too spectacular. Probably just some decent mental manipulation.

His Low 1-C and (at most) High 3-A key gonna be fun tho.
 
Powers and Resistances will probably be divided up something like this for my proposal. Thanks again to Dinamic for the initial draft.

Common Abilities:


Prior to entering Eä

Aratar:

Valar and Greater Maiar:

Maiar:

Within the confines of Eä
Aratar:

Valar and Greater Maiar:

Maiar:

Fallen Ainur (Within the confines of Eä)

Dark Lords:

Umaiar:
 
I have another question:
Melkor was said to be the mightiest of all the Ainur who descended into the world, including the Valar, who are individually capable of greatly affecting and controlling the entirety of Eä
Click to expand...
Is this really Attack Potency? Looks like RW
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
I have another question:

Is this really Attack Potency? Looks like RW
Click to expand...
The actual quote says that they have an almost complete "command" over the physical matter of the universe. That line could do with a altering. They used this ability to physically construct much of the universe, with Varda being capable of creating entire new constellations.

“The Valar had a command, great individually, almost complete as a united council, over the physical material of Eä (the material universe).”

Note: Not individual Ainu can completely control the totality of the universe as they all are limited to matter and the respective element/concept over which they are able to "effortlessly" wield (akin to breathing according to the lines). Utilization of other concepts/elements leading to a drain on their power, potentially permanently with overusage.

"The Valar, however, had of course far greater power over their material. Not only had they enormously greater force of will, scope of mind, and subtlety of skill, but they had complete understanding of the erma and of the structure of its variations, since they had themselves (under Eru) designed and brought about these variations, and their combinations. Or rather, among them all such knowledge was to be found; for individually they had possessed from their own creation, and had shown in their assistance in the designing of Eä, different talents, and each of them possessed some skill or knowledge of his or her own."

"The words used to describe this action or emission of “power” were derived (apparently) by analogy from emission of breath, and such physical phenomena as breathing upon frost (which melts). In addition Manwë, who was held to be Lord of Air and Winds, was the most powerful of the Valar in this respect, and the most powerful spirit in Arda."

Note 2: The Material under an Ainu seems to encompass things like "air", lightning, water, discourse, etc

Hence why, even as a council, they do not have complete control as the Valar do not encompass all elements (like evil or discourse).

Note 3: But as they (Valar or Greater Maiar) can utilise their concept with ease on a universal scale, they reach the tier. Ainu like Morgoth can even affect things outside their element, as seen in how his "corruption" is within all of Eä to some degree.
 
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Reality Warping seems to be an ability the Ainur seem to lack, although subjective reality does seem suggestible for their Low 1-C keys.
 
Tyranno223 said:
The actual quote says that they have an almost complete "command" over the physical matter of the universe. That line could do with a altering. They used this ability to physically construct much of the universe, with Varda being capable of creating entire new constellations.

“The Valar had a command, great individually, almost complete as a united council, over the physical material of Eä (the material universe).”

Note: Not individual Ainu can completely control the totality of the universe as they all are limited to matter and the respective element/concept over which they are able to "effortlessly" wield (akin to breathing according to the lines). Utilization of other concepts/elements leading to a drain on their power, potentially permanently with overusage.

"The Valar, however, had of course far greater power over their material. Not only had they enormously greater force of will, scope of mind, and subtlety of skill, but they had complete understanding of the erma and of the structure of its variations, since they had themselves (under Eru) designed and brought about these variations, and their combinations. Or rather, among them all such knowledge was to be found; for individually they had possessed from their own creation, and had shown in their assistance in the designing of Eä, different talents, and each of them possessed some skill or knowledge of his or her own."

"The words used to describe this action or emission of “power” were derived (apparently) by analogy from emission of breath, and such physical phenomena as breathing upon frost (which melts). In addition Manwë, who was held to be Lord of Air and Winds, was the most powerful of the Valar in this respect, and the most powerful spirit in Arda."

Note 2: The Material under an Ainu seems to encompass things like "air", lightning, water, discourse, etc

Hence why, even as a council, they do not have complete control as the Valar do not encompass all elements (like evil or discourse).

Note 3: But as they (Valar or Greater Maiar) can utilise their concept with ease on a universal scale, they reach the tier. Ainu like Morgoth can even affect things outside their element, as seen in how his "corruption" is within all of Eä to some degree.
Click to expand...
What if it was just a hax/ability with a universal range?
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
What if it was just a hax/ability with a universal range?
Click to expand...
That's one way to take it, but as it is stated that each Vala has a command of the physical material of the entire infinite universe, it's taken as power. It's not really described as hax.

Said power has been used to make constellations by Varda for instance, and presumably made the innumerable stars that dot the infinite universe (it was completely dark when the Ainur first descended).

The latter stuff I mentioned was actually hax, but I more so bringing it up to explain why their command wasn't total, and couldn't be total unless Melkor joined in.
 
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Tyranno223 said:
That's one way to take it, but as it is stated that each Vala has a command of the physical material of the entire infinite universe, it's taken as power. It's not really described as hax.

Said power has been used to make constellations by Varda for instance, and presumably made the innumerable stars that dot the infinite universe (it was completely dark when the Ainur first descended).

The latter stuff I mentioned was actually hax, but I more so bringing it up to explain why their command wasn't total, and couldn't be total unless Melkor joined in
Click to expand...
Okay.

Tyranno223 said:
Sauron and Morgoth get Fear Manip enough to chase out a soul.
Click to expand...
Do you have the texts that describe or talk about this feat? It's pretty cool
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Do you have the texts that describe or talk about this feat? It's pretty cool
Click to expand...

"For it is recorded in the histories that Morgoth, and Sauron after him, would drive out the fëa by terror, and then feed the body and make it a beast. Or worse: he would daunt the fëa within the body and reduce it to impotence; [11] and then nourish the body foully, so that it became bestial, to the horror and torment of the fëa.)"

Note: fëa refers to soul/spirit

From "The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, XVII Death"
 
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Tyranno223 said:
"For it is recorded in the histories that Morgoth, and Sauron after him, would drive out the fëa by terror, and then feed the body and make it a beast. Or worse: he would daunt the fëa within the body and reduce it to impotence; [11] and then nourish the body foully, so that it became bestial, to the horror and torment of the fëa.)"

Note: fëa refers to soul/spirit

From "The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, XVII Death"
Click to expand...
Thanks.

Fun question:
Are other planets in the universe inhabited by sentient beings in the Legendarium?
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Thanks.
Click to expand...
No problem. It even seems to be passive, considering a Sauron with a weaker Fear Manipulation could make even characters like Luthien faint and Huan jump away by just walking forwards.

"So great was the horror of his approach that Huan leaped aside. Then Sauron sprang upon Lúthien; and she swooned before the menace of the fell spirit in his eyes and the foul vapour of his breath."
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Fun question:
Are other planets in the universe inhabited by sentient beings in the Legendarium?
Click to expand...
There is mention of other Ainur going to other worlds in versions of the Legendarium. Nothing beyond that.

A pretty fun LotR and A Song of Ice and Fire uses that premise to have the Seven be Maiar spirits that went to
 
Some speed feats for the 9-B characters.

"the Quendi did not and do not “live slowly”, moving ponderouslylike tortoises, while Time flickers past them and their sluggish thoughts!Indeed, they move and think swifter than Men, and achieve more than a Man in any given length of time.[fn7] Thus to a Man Elves appear to speak rapidly but clearly(unless they ****** their speech for Men’s sake), to move quickly and featly (unless they are in urgency, or much moved, when the movement of their hands, for example, may become too swift for human eyes to follow closely), and only their thought, perception, and reasoning seem normally beyond human speed." - NOME: Part 1: IV Timescales

Characters who scale to Elven characters (and Elven characters) should be able to achieve reactions and combat speeds of the "Subsonic" tier for being FTE

Note: Numenoreans/Dunedain have proven comparable to Elves on numerous occasion, even "High Elves"/Calaquendi. This even includes their weakened descendants.



Also, it's tragic, but Tom Bombadil (no page, so just for fun) is capped to 7-A Sauron. He'd be the last to fall, but he'd still fall to Sauron if he were to attack him (even without the Ring + before Gandalf the White).

"...the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.’"

This is a dialogue from Glorfindel regarding a hypothetical of what would happen if they gave the Ring to Bombadil for keeping.
 
Tyranno223 said:
A pretty fun LotR and A Song of Ice and Fire uses that premise to have the Seven be Maiar spirits that went to
Click to expand...
This is the first time I've heard of this theory, it's really cool.

Tyranno223 said:
"the Quendi did not and do not “live slowly”, moving ponderouslylike tortoises, while Time flickers past them and their sluggish thoughts!Indeed, they move and think swifter than Men, and achieve more than a Man in any given length of time.[fn7] Thus to a Man Elves appear to speak rapidly but clearly(unless they ****** their speech for Men’s sake), to move quickly and featly (unless they are in urgency, or much moved, when the movement of their hands, for example, may become too swift for human eyes to follow closely), and only their thought, perception, and reasoning seem normally beyond human speed." - NOME: Part 1: IV Timescales
Click to expand...
Tolkien seems to prefer elves to humans lmao
 
Tyranno223 said:
A pretty fun LotR and A Song of Ice and Fire uses that premise to have the Seven be Maiar spirits that went to
Click to expand...
oo whats the fic
Tyranno223 said:
Also, it's tragic, but Tom Bombadil (no page, so just for fun) is capped to 7-A Sauron. He'd be the last to fall, but he'd still fall to Sauron if he were to attack him (even without the Ring + before Gandalf the White).

"...the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.’"

This is a dialogue from Glorfindel regarding a hypothetical of what would happen if they gave the Ring to Bombadil for keeping.
Click to expand...
More Sauron scaling
 
Tyranno223 said:
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/land-of-the-king-arnor-in-westeros.853387/
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://m.fanfiction.net/s/13595554/1/Land-of-the-King-Arnor-in-Westeros&ved=2ahUKEwj11qmnyJaDAxV72QIHHfZ_ACgQFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2ZRi27whQwc9ucPGcXqKaU
Pretty fun. Premise is what if the Faithful ships landed in Westeros after the Downfall (before even Valyria existed)
Click to expand...
A popular theory in fandom says that an empire similar to Numenor and Atlantis existed a long time ago (The Great Empire of the Dawn), long before the migration of the First Men, and that some of its inhabitants were the ancestors of certain Houses and Peoples of Westeros (House Dayne and the Stony Dornish, House Hightower, House Tarth, the Ironborn, perhaps House Casterly) and would even be linked to the Valyrians (who are officially Numenoreans and Atlanteans of ASOIAF).
 
Manwë might get BFR on a 5-D level. The Timeless/Outer Void being the other 5-D structure in the Legendarium, alongside the Timeless Halls.

"Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell" - RotK: Book 6, Chapter 4

"But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void." - The Silmarillion: Valaquenta

"To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing." - RotK: Book 6, Chapter 8

"But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the Door of Night beyond the Walls of the World, into the Timeless Void; and a guard is set for ever on those walls, and Eärendil keeps watch upon the ramparts of the sky." - The Silmarillion: Chapter 24

It's not explicit, but winds are Manwë's domain, and Valinor is in the West. Melkor had to be physically thrown out the gate by the other Valar, so they wouldn't get it.
 
Anyone got proof for empathic manipulation? Can't seem to find the line about Ainur producing "joy"
 
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