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Lord of the Rings Discussion Thread

Type 5 Immortality for the Ainur ?
The Eldar reported these words to the Valar, and Manwë was grieved, seeing a cloud gather on the noontide of Númenor. And he sent messengers to the Dúnedain, who spoke earnestly to the King, and to all who would listen, concerning the fate and fashion of the world.

‘The Doom of the World,’ they said, ‘One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.’
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Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
What are Gandalf's powers and abilities? Is his current page complete and accurate about this?
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None of the pages are really complete yet, although I'd say the low tiers are more complete than the rest (most are pretty basic minus universal resistances).

I do have the WIP Ainur page linked above, but I've moved the work onto a draft page on my fandom profile for a bit more security.

As a unrestricted Maia, his abilities fall under that page.

As an Istar, he's more restricted. He has elemental stuff like fire, lightning, etc. Light manipulation and darkness manipulation. Decently potent mind manipulation/telepathy, some empathic manipulation. Probably some more stuff.

He can do stuff like counter-spells, runes, and probably songs of power (which I need to look into more to see if there's any interesting stuff beyond the Song of the Ainur and generic magic).
 
Does Aragorn have any other weapons besides Anduril? I would like to do a matchup between 9-B characters but Aragorn's sword complicates it
 
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Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Does Aragorn have any other weapons besides Anduril? I would like to do a matchup between character 9-B but Aragorn's sword complicates it
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In the book trilogy he only ever uses Andúril as a proper weapon.

But he does also use torches he uses to fend off the Nazgul (no sword in the first book of the Fellowship. He has the broken shards of Narsil for Book One and he only gets Andúril in Book Two).

Though he did do some other stuff in the Appendix and Unfinished Tales. He could probably get some Gondorian stuff. I'll have a look and mention it briefly in the upcoming revision alongnside the Acausality type 2 edit.
 
Lord_Farquaad69420 said:
Yo, so I saw this and wanted to get opinions on it.
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Been over that several times. In short, was very handy for providing links to online sources + for giving heads ups on some abilities.

Also helped motivate me to hurrying up with collecting references and imgur sources

That being said it's an imperfect research, which every research is tbf, and at one point it debunks movement speed as teleportation when the footnotes outright refer to said movement as... movement. Plus other sources repeat the same thing.
 
Btw I may be wrong about all this .
They could qualify for 1a with Eru being above whatever layer into 1a the ainurs are placed in. But I don’t think he can be 0 due to interacting and living in the same space as the ainur;the timeless halls unless it was just an avatar of some sort
 
G33kedzinx said:
Btw I may be wrong about all this .
They could qualify for 1a with Eru being above whatever layer into 1a the ainurs are placed in. But I don’t think he can be 0 due to interacting and living in the same space as the ainur;the timeless halls unless it was just an avatar of some sort
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Well LotR qualifies as Tier 1-A for three (maybe more) reasons:
  1. Tolkien uses the same language to differentiate Eru's and the Ainur's level of existence to Eä (the universe) as he does to differentiate between reality and mythology
  2. Eru holds all of Eä as mere thought, being able to maintain it in his mind. To Him, it is on the same level as fiction is, as an entire space-time is but merely thought in His mind (indeed, the language is used describes Eä as but one finite fictional sub-creation under Eru/God's infinite creative potential. Meanwhile Tolkien states both space and time in Eä being limitlessly extensive, aka infinite. In essence a 4-D Space-Time is finite and fractional compared to Eru)
  3. Eru is described as an author, with his interventions being that of an Author, as is his role, level of existence, etc.
The Ainur qualify for this for a few simple reasons.
  1. Eru regards them as "real" existences he can interact with compared to Eä which is but fiction to him
  2. They shake the Timeless Halls and Void with their Music, they can thus affect a realm of existence that is "primary" to Eä which is "secondary". The difference being between that of fiction and mythology to Tolkien
  3. They are sub-creators that inhabit a similar cosmological position to authors like Tolkien (within cosmology, Tolkien exists as the sub-creative force to the Legendarium).
Tier 0 is a confusing topic for me but from the looks of it, interaction with tier 0 isn't necessarily impossible. God from Dante's Work is considered tier 0 in Ultima's new system, and they have interaction with others to an extent. Eru is unchanging, unbound by hierarchy, is indivisible from himself, and is the singular omnipotent of the Legendarium.

I don't know 100% though, but Ultima at least believes Eru is Tier 0. This might mean the Ainur upscale in some way (not Tier 0 obvs), but that's another topic and I'm no tier 1 expert.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Well LotR qualifies as Tier 1-A for three (maybe more) reasons:
  1. Tolkien uses the same language to differentiate Eru's and the Ainur's level of existence to Eä (the universe) as he does to differentiate between reality and mythology
  2. Eru holds all of Eä as mere thought, being able to maintain it in his mind. To Him, it is on the same level as fiction is, as an entire space-time is but merely thought in His mind (indeed, the language is used describes Eä as but one finite fictional sub-creation under Eru/God's infinite creative potential. Meanwhile Tolkien states both space and time in Eä being limitlessly extensive, aka infinite. In essence a 4-D Space-Time is finite and fractional compared to Eru)
  3. Eru is described as an author, with his interventions being that of an Author, as is his role, level of existence, etc.
The Ainur qualify for this for a few simple reasons.
  1. Eru regards them as "real" existences he can interact with compared to Eä which is but fiction to him
  2. They shake the Timeless Halls and Void with their Music, they can thus affect a realm of existence that is "primary" to Eä which is "secondary". The difference being between that of fiction and mythology to Tolkien
  3. They are sub-creators that inhabit a similar cosmological position to authors like Tolkien (within cosmology, Tolkien exists as the sub-creative force to the Legendarium).
Tier 0 is a confusing topic for me but from the looks of it, interaction with tier 0 isn't necessarily impossible. God from Dante's Work is considered tier 0 in Ultima's new system, and they have interaction with others to an extent. Eru is unchanging, unbound by hierarchy, is indivisible from himself, and is the singular omnipotent of the Legendarium.

I don't know 100% though, but Ultima at least believes Eru is Tier 0. This might mean the Ainur upscale in some way (not Tier 0 obvs), but that's another topic and I'm no tier 1 expert.
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The only issue I have is with tier 0 for elu then again I’m also not 💯 familiar with those tiers, but since he's the one setting up the system, I suppose he'll be tier 0 if he says so lol though his stance might have shifted since January.
 
G33kedzinx said:
The only issue I have is with tier 0 for elu then again I’m also not 💯 familiar with those tiers, but since he's the one setting up the system, I suppose he'll be tier 0 if he says so lol though his stance might have shifted since January.
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Maybe, it all depends on if the revision even goes through.

I will note that Eru isn't bound by the Timeless Halls. They are where he resides in relation to the Ainur, but Tolkien repeatedly describes him as infinite, whereas even the Ainur are finite compared to Eru.

He is quite literally Tolkien’s (emphasis in Tolkien's to avoid religious issues) conception of the Christian God within fiction.
 
Tyranno223 said:
The Ainur qualify for this for a few simple reasons.
  1. Eru regards them as "real" existences he can interact with compared to Eä which is but fiction to him
  2. They shake the Timeless Halls and Void with their Music, they can thus affect a realm of existence that is "primary" to Eä which is "secondary". The difference being between that of fiction and mythology to Tolkien
  3. They are sub-creators that inhabit a similar cosmological position to authors like Tolkien (within cosmology, Tolkien exists as the sub-creative force to the Legendarium).
Click to expand...
We live in a time where 20th century authors (specially the brits) are given outer - boundless characters
 
Lord_Farquaad69420 said:
Isn’t TEBTS gonna be high into 1A?
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Good question. I'm not familiar with the current discussion around Narnia (I just found out about TEBTS's 1-A rating an hour ago).

On that note, does anyone have a link to Ultima's proposed Tier 1 and 0 overhaul? I've been hearing about it for months but haven't read the thread itself
 
Here
vsbattles.com

Tiering System Revisions: Tier 0

Hi all. So, a bit ago, I made this thread. It got accepted, and the result of it was the discarding of the previous purely mathematical basis for tiers Low 1-A and above. These tiers, then, were changed to the following: Here, you can see a fairly clear progression on how the Tiering System...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

Apparently Narnia won't be tier 0, not sure why. I believe it's because their top tier is directly tied to a hierarchy unlike Eru.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Apparently Narnia won't be tier 0, not sure why. I believe it's because their top tier is directly tied to a hierarchy unlike Eru.
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Their top tier is part of a trinity more than a hierarchy, which normal aslan probably stop's him from being boundless, also i was reffering to high outer.
 
Lord_Farquaad69420 said:
A cosmology blog and scans/scaling blog would also be nice, it would help shorten profiles and give clearer reasonings
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The Powers and Resistances page was the first step to shortening pages. A cosmology page is on the lower end of priorities for me as it's pretty simple though. The individual powers and resistances is kinda the next thing. Once they're out of the way we can finally be done with the carbon-copy issue for tier 1 LotR pages.

This is my current shorthand thoughts on it:

  • Material Univerese: High 3-A
  • Eä/the Universe as a whole: Low 2-C
    • There is mention of other planes of existence here that I need to evaluate. Wouldn't matter due to all characters scaling to or above this are R>F but it would be neat for cosmology's sake.
  • The totality of Subcreations: 2-A (not that this part matters for anything. Essentially the Legendarium is described as a finite portion of Eru's infinite creative potential. Aka, all fictions are under Eru. Crossover rules and common-sense obvs means this can't upscale to every fiction, but it does mean there's infinite counterparts to Eä, aka the universe. However, no one scales to this besides Eru and the Ainur who are already R>F).
  • The Creation and Timeless Halls: R>F Eä, hence 1-A
  • Timeless Void: Literally nothingness, devoid of time or space. Unknown, likely 1-A (it takes the likes of Eru or the Ainur in their origin to affect it, but beings like an Eä-bound Morgoth can be banished to it. Eärendil even enters it in some drafts.
This isn't my final thoughts on it as DOOMSLAYER127 did bring up an interesting point on seperate planes of existence + I need to look more into the Christian theology side of things, but this is the basic breakdown for now.

Eru technically resides in the Timeless Halls, but it's described that even the Ainur are finite compared to Eru and that Eru is kinda independent of the whole thing to a degree.
 
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Lord_Farquaad69420 said:
Their top tier is part of a trinity more than a hierarchy, which normal aslan probably stop's him from being boundless
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Ah, that makes sense. I was wondering what the issue was.

Lord_Farquaad69420 said:
also i was reffering to high outer.
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High 1-A? Don't know. They are 1-A for now, but I haven't been keeping up with the Narnia side. Funnily enough, C.S Lewis and Tolkien had a few crossovers with their "verses", but no enough to combine them. Shame since there's a fair few similarities like the Song of Creation and the Music of the Ainur.
 
Eru and the Ainur/angels may have a second degree of R>F to the "Primary" reality that the Authors of sub-creations (Tolkien and co in Cosmology). Looking into it a bit

Letters: 87

"Of course I do not mean that the Gospels tell what is only a fairy-story; but I do mean very strongly that they do tell a fairy-story: the greatest. Man the story-teller would have to be redeemed in a manner consonant with his nature: by a moving story. But since the author if it is the supreme Artist and the Author of Reality, this one was also made to Be, to be true on the Primary Plane. So that in the Primary Miracle (the Resurrection) and the lesser Christian miracles too though less, you have not only that sudden glimpse of the truth behind the apparent Anankê2 of our world, but a glimpse that is actually a ray of light through the very chinks of the universe about us."

The debate is how much you want to tie Tolkien's views of faith and fiction to his own work. There is clear overlap, but you need to make sure they're tied. For this letter at least, the comparison is clear. God/Eru is an author of the primary reality in a similar vein to that of fiction. The tie is there but it's not completely explicit.

Letter 153 also alludes to Eru/God as taking an authorial role to the "Primary" world.

"...our Real World does not appear to be wholly coherent either; and I am actually not myself convinced that, though in every world on every plane all must ultimately be under the Will of God, even in ours there are not some 'tolerated' sub-creational counterfeits!)"
 
Hsharpe said:
Or perhaps do a mix of both?
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Possible, but focusing on one is quicker and less chaotic.

At the moment I'm thinking of at least getting the less "hax" characters out of the way first, then maybe going to cosmology. Though that being said, even Aragorn took a fair bit of time.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Possible, but focusing on one is quicker and less chaotic.

At the moment I'm thinking of at least getting the less "hax" characters out of the way first, then maybe going to cosmology. Though that being said, even Aragorn took a fair bit of time.
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Very well, and makes sense. Go right on ahead.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Sure! In the meantime I posted my proposal for Aragorn's abilities on the general thread. Nothing too ridiculous but he does get some nice stuff.
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Took a look through it, and it’s pretty good. Also, I propose at least a couple extra LOTR characters to be added to the wiki:

  • Ecthelion
  • Eärendil
  • Túrin Turambar
  • Húrin (forgot his last name)
  • Elu Thingol
 
Hsharpe said:
Took a look through it, and it’s pretty good. Also, I propose at least a couple extra LOTR characters to be added to the wiki:

  • Ecthelion
  • Eärendil
  • Túrin Turambar
  • Húrin (forgot his last name)
  • Elu Thingol
Click to expand...
Definitely in time. Eärendil especially and Elendil + Finrond (and maybe Fingon) as well. Some of the Sons of Fëanor also really deserve profiles.

That being said I'm mostly in the business of revising profiles + making pages for verse stuff. Anyone looking to make new pages for characters would be great help. I'd even give them a look over.
 
Tyranno223 said:
General inquiry, but would people prefer me to tackle cosmology or individual abilities more?
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I would say you could make an great explanation surrounding the cosmology

In the meantime the abilities section is an case to case situation, but it would be cool to have an verse-specif article for the elves in the future like we did with the ainur

Might make an sketch of one during April (No promisses though, my RL is been quite intense in the past time).
 
Dinamic8000 said:
I would say you could make an great explanation surrounding the cosmology

In the meantime the abilities section is an case to case situation, but it would be cool to have an verse-specif article for the elves in the future like we did with the ainur

Might make an sketch of one during April (No promisses though, my RL is been quite intense in the past time).
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Well I'll get to cosmology once we get the lower tiers out of the way. People like Legolas don't get much (Aragorn was just a surprise).

Yeah. Something like that would be good! I'm thinking we could do a race article in general for all three of the children since none of them should be as long as the Ainur.
 
Question, does anyone have the exact paragraph from Osanwe-kenta and the barrier of Unwill that proves Mind Manip resistance?
 
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