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Legend of Zelda Upgrades: Part 2

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Lina_Shields

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In the previous thread, the following points were discussed. The pros and cons of each point will be listed below.

  • Calamity Ganon moving the Moo
  • Onox's lightning feat
  • The Light Arrows in TP/BotW
Ganon Moving the Moo

While it does seem odd for such a thing to be natural, Zelda implies that it is in the following quote.

"... Link... Link... Be on your guard. Ganon's power grows...it rises to its peak under the hour of a Blood Moon. By its glow, the aimless spirits of monsters that were slain in the name of the light return to flesh. Link...please be careful."

This would mean that Ganon is not moving the Moon, but rather it happens on its own and he is just empowered by it.

Onox's Lightning Feat

The main objection to this is the numerous amount of low-showings contradicting this feat, along with how the lightning behaves. The low-showings will be shown below.

  • Demise and Link are incapable of reacting to lightning.
  • Thunderblight Ganon, the only Ganon to have moved FTE compared to Link, is frozen compared to his machine generated lightning, it should be noted mechanical electricity is just 4000 m/s
  • In BotW Link is incapable of dodging any lightning, even with speed enhancements.
  • Link is still compared to Onox's electricity.
The Light Arrows

The arrows in Twilight Princess and Breath of the Wild are stated to be made of pure light. However, note that:

  • All previous games depict this as just empowering the arrowhead.
  • The arrows emit light from the arrowhead only, not leaving a parallel path as one would expect.
  • The arrows travel no faster than your regular arrows.
 
Well, characters such as the Living Laser, Spectrum, and Kizaru are considered as being made of light, despite having specific shapes.

I do not think that this is a good restart of the thread, as in order to do so we need a matter-of-fact summary of the previous discussion in the first post.
 
I will make a matter-of-fact summary, and post it to the OP.

However, summarizing all the important points in the previous thread will take some time, as most of the posts in that thread are lengthy and detailed.

EDIT: Also, would something that is made of light automatically have the speed of light if

  • it has/moves in a completely different form from what an actual beam of light would be, which is a straight line?
  • it is not stated that it is actually lightspeed?
 
Okay. Thank you for the help.

I think that we have to give some leeway to fiction, in terms of different shapes for the light than it should have.
 
I am also leaning towards accepting the arrows as lightspeed.
 
More information. If the Twilight Bow is implemented in BoTW via Zelda's SSB4 Amiibo, it functions the same was as the Bow of Light in BoTW, in that it fires infinite arrows (meaning they're not charged w/light like the OoT incarnation) made of pure light.
 
Before we begin any extensive discussion, let's remember that even if no one procures 100% definite evidence, it cannot be denied that there is a powerful case built on circumstantial evidence. And let's all remember that the validity of building a case on mostly circumstantial evidence is quite underrated; after, that's usually what's used in criminal court proceedings and the like. Just a thought until the OP is finished being tweaked.
 
For LordX's post about the lightning examples, there is 1 incident of characters standing still for lightning to hit them (which as he pointed out was necessary for the gameplay of the battle), two incidents of background lightning, 1 incident of machine generated electricity, 1 incident an overworld obstacle that shouldn't be much different from a fodder enemy hitting Link, and what I assume is magically generated electricity though after watching the video a few times I'm not even sure where the electrical attack appears. With the possible exception of the first one those all seem like really weak counterexamples.

Of course the fact remains that, as he pointed out, the lightning used for the calc isn't even a solid bolt. So it may not have been real lightning in the first place.
 
Cal addressing Xcano's points

  • Demise: For the most part, its background lightning. As Matt said, we don't scale to that. There's also the point that they have to stand still to get the lightning into their swords and when they fire the lightning, it can easily be dodged.
  • TP Ganon. Background lightning. So... for the most part, see point 1.
  • Thunderblight. First off, saying he's the fastest Ganon incarnation ever because he's FTE is stupid. I guess the Garo Master is among the fastest characters in the game then. Secondly, if everything this guy emits is true electricity according to you guys in order to prove your point, Link can easily dodge the three balls of electricity fired at him. And the fact that people are trying to downgrade a character that's barely 1 c to barely 1 Mach is not just silly, but downright asinine.
  • Onox: this one is starts off with a silly premise. So? Neither does Lakitu. Or Vulcan.
 
You do know that the game-makers don't give half a damn about the speed of their characters, and focus on plot over feats? And if the background lightning was static it'd be seen as lazy?

Yeah, this is why you don't use it.
 
@Cal "For the most part, its background lightning."

Almost none of it is. It is constantly striking around you and is fully capable of hitting you.

"First off, saying he's the fastest Ganon incarnation ever because he's FTE is stupid."

He is the only Ganon who has ever gone FTE to Link is the point here. Not that he's just gone FTE. The fact he is so much casually faster than Link would place him far above any other incarnation of Ganon.

"this one is starts off with a silly premise. So? Neither does Lakitu. Or Vulcan."

Lakitu's lightning does act normally.

@Blah

"1 incident of machine generated electricity"

Machine generated electricity is actually only 4000 m/s. Much slower than lightning.

Light Arrows, while they do have shape, never act like light. They are stated to be light, but we can see from casual observation that the arrowhead is simply emitting it, otherwise the beams would be parallel to the direction of the arrow.

The Light Arrows travel in a straight line, but so does every single one of your arrows. The Light Arrows don't even move faster than your normal ones.

To top it all off, Ganondorf never reacts to either the BotW Light Arrows or the TP Light Arrows, so he wouldn't scale anyway.

EDIT:

To elaborate further on the Light Arrow point.

A character can say "This is my light gun. It shoots light from its light chamber to kill the anti-light people (darkness men)."

But if the things the gun fires:

  • Looks like a bulllet
  • Moves like a bullet
  • Isn't any faster than a bullet
  • Doesn't even look like light in the first place
Then it's probably just a bullet.
 
@LordXCano

What really bothers me is that when you linked these videos, they timestamp you've linked to starts off several minutes before the lightning actually happens, then I have to waste my time and watch through half the video to evaluate the evidence you've shown. I understand that you have to establish some context, but I think about 10-20 seconds would suffice, maybe lower.

This isn't anything against your argument. It seems solid to me, but I prefer not to waste any more time than I have to trying to look over it.
 
@AN

Here, 1 sec. Sorry about that. Not including the background lightning examples that leaves:

 
Alright, thanks. I can agree with Xcano on this.

If there's so many times where electricity has been shown immensely faster than them, it greatly contradicts a single MHS+ feat.

Edd doesn't get his single Mountain level dura feat, Kirby doesn't get his one Universal feat, and Mario + Luigi don't scale to Dreamy Bowser, all for the same reason: they're outliers.
 
I agree with Lordxcano s points, they seem very reasonable.


Edit: Sorry if I didn't provide my own reasoning, I'm on mobile, I'll say more later.
 
@LordX

Machine generated electricity varies in speed to an unknown degree, over world hazards hitting and damaging main characters are generally game mechanics, and your link to Onox' fight shows magic tornadoes and the screen flashing yellow, where is the lightning?
 
@Blahblah

The highest source I've ever seen on electricity speed was 60,000 m/s, but that wasn't traditional electricity, they were trying to replicate lightning. The 4000 m/s calc above is normal electricity.

As for the Onox thing, the flashing yellow screen is him sending electricity through the ground. I'd have to rewatch it, but I'm pretty sure you can hear a "bzz" noise whenever he does it.
 
A lot of Xcano's points are game mechanics, like the lightning which can hit you. Game mechanics should never be used.
 
Lightning hitting you is game mechanics but horses being comparable in speed to light arrows isn't?
 
Well in that case the Light Arrow point is moot, as nobody blocks them in a cutscene. Nobody blocks them at all in TP or BotW, actually.
 
Now then...

@Cal:

More information. If the Twilight Bow is implemented in BoTW via Zelda's SSB4 Amiibo, it functions the same was as the Bow of Light in BoTW, in that it fires infinite arrows (meaning they're not charged w/light like the OoT incarnation) made of pure light.

Now, what do those arrows look like in that situation? If it does not have the appearance of an actual beam of light, it is within our rules to not consider them as real light.

They do not travel in straight lines (unless you can prove refraction/reflection, see above)
Perhaps you are familiar with the appearance of a beam from a laser pointer. It should look something like this:

Laser-Pointer-Plane 024160582468
Demise: For the most part, its background lightning. As Matt said, we don't scale to that. There's also the point that they have to stand still to get the lightning into their swords and when they fire the lightning, it can easily be dodged.

Where in the calculations and the calculation guide pages does it state that rule? Scaling objects, such as lightning and bullets from the background in cutscenes as well as during gameplay are considered to be fair game.

@Matt:

If you scrutinize literally any fiction you can find instances where characters are slower, doesn't mean their higher feats are fake.

Perhaps you should take a good read in the Outlier page. Considering that we are shown multiple times within all of the games that Link and all the relevant characters in Zelda are extremely slow in comparison to cloud-to-ground lightning, as well as regular lightning, having a speed feat that is hundreds of times higher than this would be considered a major inconsistency.

Now, about the Guardian Parry funtime video, here is a picture in comparison of light arrow and an actual beam of light.

As for how this relates to the Guardian Parry video in question. We have two scenes where we are shown a beam of light.

  • red light
  • blue light
For the red light, the screencaps of said laser has been displayed below. Said laser reaches Link in one single frame. In the third frame, we see that the laser was fired from a significant distance. We can also see that said light in question is the same as a laser pointer, which does not physically interact with any objects that it makes contact with.

Pointer 1
Frame 1
Pointer 2
Frame 2
Pointer 3
Frame 3

For the second light, we clearly see in the screenshots below that it takes three frames to reach Link at a closer distance in comparison to the red light, which reached Link in a single frame. This would mean that the speed of blue beam of light =/= red beam of light, meaning it is slower than the red beam/laser pointer.

Pointer 4
Frame 1
Pointer 5
Frame 2
Pointer 6
Frame 3

--- About that Onox calc.

Onox 1
Frame 1: Lightning falls from the sky
Onox 2
Frame 2: Onox appears out of nowhere

How do we know that Onox fell out of the sky again? He just appears on screen out of nowhere. No proof that he outpaced said lightning.
 
Point 1. Ant himself debunked that argument. And in that case, we should downgraded every singe light related feat, as you're clearly holding it to a much higher scientific standard than what fictions are trying to get across.

Point 2. There's more examples of Goku being immobile to lightning. Should we downgrade him to MHS?
 
At this point I think the title of the thread is a bit misleading, since the objective for the OP seems to be downgrading the Light Arrows in speed.
 
Now I agree with that. Just call this Zelda downgrades part 4. Because everyone seems to love making several hundred post threads to try to downgrade TLoZ.
 
  1. Has he? Go take a look at the scene between the red light and the blue light thing again. It is shown that the red light/laser pointer's speed > blue light's speed.
  2. Goku at that point was not moving at his max speed, or his combat speed. Also, Goku/Dragonball has feats that are way above lightning speed, so said feat would be mostly irrelevant to Goku's speed anyways.
You should serious consider stop bringing conjectures into your arguments and start bringing actual feats from the game/actual calculations instead. I could also start bringing conjectures from the back of my head like what you are doing, but they're just random guesses at best.

Anyways, the calc team has been contacted about this.
 
"Point 2. There's more examples of Goku being immobile to lightning. Should we downgrade him to MHS?"

Goku actually has good feats though. Several of them. An FTL feat off the top of my head, an MFTL feat by EoS, a sub-rel by Saiyan Saga, I remember Chaos has another sub-rel feat with Gotenks and a few MHS to MHS+ feats as well. Not to mention most of the time he's shown as immobile to lightning he is standing still and talking, and this is in the anime only.

Link has 1 feat (In which Onox arguably didn't even outpace the lightning) and 4 instances where electricity/lightning is shown to be incomparably fast compared to him.
 
I do question Sub-Relativistic Saiyan Saga and Freeza Saga. Piccolo's feat is greatly contradicted by what comes afterwards. Goku crossing Snake Way in and back, and when he arrives on Earth he takes Nimbus to go faster, and Nimbus isn't even that impressive.

Plus, everyone until Goku breaks from his pod takes a long time to cross continental distances at Namek.
 
Define conjectures. If conjectures means somewhat the same as references or comparisons, then with all due respect, I won't, due to the fact that it's an integral part of vs debating.

Yeah. Goku wasn't fighting at his true combat speed vs Frieza...

Goku has one speculative FTL feat. Everything else comes from scaling, and even then, they're outnumbered by being frozen by lightning. Or heck. Even all the times Solar Flare worked. And if you don't like my DB example, then how about all the times when lightning was shown to be a ton faster than Mario characters? Or FF characters?
 
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