Kirby Character Revision Attempts Again.

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Void

Void is the origin of all, including life, which means he should have Life Manipulation.

Dark Nebula
If Dark Nebula was able to move a galaxy, shouldn't "At least" be in front of "Multi-Solar System level" for its stats? Unless that was not a galaxy, but it really looks like one. This would also upgrade its range.

Adeleine
Pre-Star Allies Adeleine's stamina is stated to be low on her profile, when it should actually be unknown considering she was far weaker than Kirby. She gets knocked out by attacking Kirby when Kirby doesn't attack simply because Kirby was too durable for her. I'd say Adeleine's stamina at the time was likely average. Maybe it was even high since she could keep Kirby in check by creating multiple paintings at his speed.

 

[Somelatinguy]

1) No problem with him having life manipulation.

2) We've clarified that on a previous thread .

3) I agree, except for a little detail... Later.

3-Note) She and Paint Roller can actually paint faster than he can move, like Meta Knight and Sectonia can do multi-thrusts faster than he can move, yet they're all just as fast as him while not doing those actions and can be defeated by him.

- This also explains how flying opponents become Warp Star speed level while flying long enough distances yet can be defeated by him, who is slower than Warp Stars.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Thanks, that makes sense. I must wait for more people's thoughts or a staff member to accept this thread's content.

 

[Remy_the_wolf]

wasnt kirby already multi solar system level? or are you aruging galaxy level , im not understanding what upgrade is looking to be done .

 

[Somelatinguy]

@James Plays 4 Games

Wait a minute, you agree with everything I said?

@Remy the wolf

We're discussing those three particular topics.

 

[Remy_the_wolf]

^^^^^

so if im understanding correctly , kirby might be getting a upgrade? or is he getting downgraded? , sorry my brain isnt working today.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

For the second one I was saying that Dark Nebula should have "at least" in front of "Multi-Solar System level" because he moved a galaxy but got defeated by Kirby, who is "At least Multi-Solar System level", though it's not going to happen cause there was a thread about it that I didn't see.

 

[Somelatinguy]

We'll resume our "multi-solar system level vs peak human level" debate another day; but now, I say the little detail in point 3 is that...

Star Allies Adeleine isn't stronger than Pre-Star Allies Adeleine; Dream Friends aren't the real characters but copies strengthened/weakened to the level of the Dream Rod's user.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Star Allies Adeleine isn't stronger than Pre-Star Allies Adeleine; Dream Friends aren't the real characters but copies strengthened/weakened to the level of the Dream Rod's user.

There isn't evidence of that as far as I'm aware. Where did you hear the Dream Rod's summonable characters being clones?

 

[Somelatinguy]

- "Magolor" can use moves he's not supposed to be able to use in his base form.

- Not only does "Marx" have that same problem, but also he's supposed to be dead.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Reasons this can be false: The pause screen descriptions refer to the characters as their true selves, and most descriptions give reasons for why they have came to be playable characters. Adeleine & Ribbon are said to not be as tough as the other Dream Friends, and they have the least HP of all the characters. King Dedede has lots of HP just like other games he is playable in.

a) Magolor is said to have some power of the Master Crown, meaning he can use weaker versions of all his moves, not just the ones from Kirby's Dream Collection. This wouldn't even mean he is a clone that scales to the Dream Rod user since he is the only one that uses the Master Crown's magic too.

- Adeleine has always been comparable but noticeably weaker than Kirby, and Kirby Star Allies portrays her that way as well along with her having low HP.

b) Bomb Kirby and Poppy Bros. Jr. aren't the only characters that can use the Dream Rod to give Marx's balls explosive power. Every character can use the Dream Rod in Story Mode, so it is definitely canon.

- The pause screen description says he was actually somewhere in a different galaxy, meaning he didn't die.

The cosmic jester from Kirby Super Star sensed danger from afar and is ready to roll across galaxies on his ball! This final boss is here to help!
	~ Marx​

He appears in the audiences of the short scenes the player unlocks when getting 100% in some games too.

 

[Somelatinguy]

0) Statements of that kind simply mean character X appears in game Y, like in SSB's manual. - "She" is strengthened enough to be able to defeat enemies with her brush.

- By HP you mean defense? I see the same HP bar length for all Dream Friends.

a) Where is he stated to have some of the Master Crown's power?

- That would mean he's the only one having certain moves like every other one does at Kirby level.

b) Every ally strengthen/weakened to Kirby level can use the rod to summon others at Kirby level.

- "That statement is a misTranslation ("ÒâØÒâ╝Òé║þö╗ÚØó" section).

- 100% screens have nothing to do with canon.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

0) Characters being "back" and having a reason that is valid to the original's story means it's not a clone, because clones don't have the original's story. I'll also add that the confirmed original King Dedede and Meta Knight can be turned into allies by throwing a Friend Heart at them once defeated, and they are exactly the same version of themselves as when summoned from a Dream Rod.

- Yeah it could be called defence too, I remember it being referred to as HP, but it is more like durability.

a) Oh, looks like I was wrong about it stating it as the Master Crown's power, but the pause screen description in Kirby Star Allies does refer to him as a magician capable of conquering the galaxy. Magolor has used magic in the past, in Kirby's Dream Collection and the Kirby Clash games, having the Master Crown power special effects in Kirby Star Allies doesn't mean he is a clone, but evidence that the powers he uses are from the Master Crown's power. I think they said it was the Master Crown's power on the Nintendo News but I don't remember. I loved reading it when they posted Kirby news, so that's probably where I got the idea in the first place.

- As Magolor alone, I can defeat Goldon and Sylvox's first phase before they finish their first attack. How is that comparable to Kirby? That is just gameplay, but so is all the characters being comparable to Kirby like you're saying, so I can make that argument. On Adeleine's profile, her power without her paintings is large planet level because there's a description that says she's not as strong as her paintings and because she is portrayed as the weakest Dream Friend. That's using canon, not gameplay. If we are using gameplay, then regular enemies turned into allies would be just as strong as Kirby is, which is incorrect unless we use my theory that the Friend Heart increases stats as well, but we can't just use assuptions like that to justify stats on the pages. The Master Crown's magic is very strong, hence why Magolor is so strong in this game. I do remember the Nintendo News saying that Magolor is overpowered in this game cause it fits his character, meaning this may be more than just gameplay, more reasons to believe this is not just a nerfed clone.

b) I'll say the same thing as the fact that not everyone is Kirby level. (Adeleine has lower durability, King Dedede has higher durability, Magolor's moves are very strong, Zan Partizanne is way faster than even Water Kirby, probably more stuff that I'm missing.)

- Google Translate sucks, but "forgive me and participate in the rain" implies he didn't die.

- Maybe, but it at least means that HAL Laboratories didn't forget of the character's existence, and aren't just putting Marx in Kirby Star Allies as a clone for marketing. (Technically everything is marketing but I assume you get my point.)

 

[LetsGetIt5]

yall can't get along. in the kirby vs buu comment section and now here?

 

[Somelatinguy]

0) Ok, most Dream Friends may be the actual characters, but that doesn't mean none of them is strengthened/weakened to the level of the Dream Rod's user.

- Then her durability is lower, but she is strengthened enough to be able to defeat enemies with her brush and withstand their attacks and uses help mentioned below.

a) Then either he has some of the Master Crown's power according to that post or the Dream Rod strengthens him to Kirby level (none of those other games is a what-if).

- He can pass that first phase easier than others like a Bulbasaur or Squirte can pass Pewter Gym easier than a Charmander or Pikachu, so it's not just gameplay.

b) The same statement mentioned in point A also says she's on par with the others thanks to her special items and Ribbon's help.

- No, it just says he appears in a new game.

- HAL never forgot his existence, but there wasn't a better character from the fourth game (Dyna Blade is too large).

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

0) The Dream Rod has no implication of having statistics amplification, which we shall talk about in the other points. And what do you mean "most" Dream Friends may be the actual characters? I doubt the Dream Rod is used for summoning and cloning, depending on the character. All Dream Friend have their past along with them.

- Game mechanics explains power, just like the enemies that can be turned into allies by the Friend Heart, they usually get one-shot by Kirby but can tank hits from Void Termina, but it's not their canonical strength. Adeleine never dies from an attack from Kirby, only gets defeated, so injured enough to not fight, and since bosses also can harm Kirby and not get knocked out in one hit, Adeleine having lower durability but not a lower tier makes sense. Like after Kirby knocks Dark Matter out of Adeleine in KirbyÔüÂÔü┤ the Crystal Shards with one hit, she was on the ground and defeated, but she woke up immediately, which would be an accurate to her low durability in Kirby Star Allies, lower durability than him but in the same tier. I think pre-Star Allies Adeleine's durability should be multi-solar system level instead of unknown since we have a good idea of what she can survive.

a) Magolor was already comparable to Kirby and is seemingly stronger than him in this game. He likely has some power of the Master Crown cause of the effects the attacks have and how he has used magic before in base form, regardless if I remember if they said it in the news. I got it, here, is the news article.

One of his great features is that he wields the giant Ultra Sword! Did he secretly stash up some power from the Master Crown? Or perhaps he stole this ability from Kirby?
	~ Yuki Endo​

They mention he might have stole this ability from Kirby too, but that has nothing to do with the Dream Rod or statistical amplification, it has to do with the Ultra Sword being something Kirby uses. It also says what I said about the Master Crown, and considering Magolor has used two huge swords when he had the Master Crown, nothing leads to the Dream Rod changing his stats to be more like Kirby.

- So if Magolor being very strong is canon and it's not just gameplay, then it's even better because stats being changed when being summoned by a Dream Rod is. Even if we agreed on that, the Dream Rod wouldn't canonically amplify characters cause it is not apart of the story, not stated anywhere, nor is there something within the same game to compare it to. (And there reasons to believe otherwise too that we are covering in the other points.)

b) So if Adeleine is on par with the others cause of her paintings and Ribbon's Crystal Gun, then their stats aren't buffed to match Kirby's, exactly. They are not Kirby level, having their own stats.

- "Forgive me and participate in the rain" is in normal writing: "Marx is forgiven for his past actions and is now able to participate in the adventure.". I don't know why adventure is "rain", but they could mean "fray" or something, pretty much just the battle and chase after the Jamba Hearts.

- That wasn't my point. This point isn't needed anyway.

c) I'd like to mention that the Dream Rod has nothing to do with this thread's topic, so if someone comes to debate about what the OP says, I'm going to stop talking about the Dream Rod.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

yall can't get along. in the kirby vs buu comment section and now here?

So what do you have to say about the OP? Should Void have life manipulation? Should pre-Star Allies Adeleine have at least average stamina or high stamina? Somelatinguy's debate isn't relevant to this thread's topic, so I'd like another to tell me what they think of the actual topic.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

At best the thing implies he ''might'' have stored some of the MC's power. I really don't think that's a good enough reason but Kirby is full of that shit and so the profiles are given tons of benefit of the doubt.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

That doesn't have to do with either subject.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Magolor can defeat Void who is at least equal to the Master Crown, plenty of his attacks have special effects of the Master Crown, when he had the Master Crown he could use giant swords like the Ultra Sword, it is in no way benefit of the doubt.

 

[LetsGetIt5]

James@ just like how other users suggested, I dont have amazing experience with the kirby series but i feel like that statement from Void is more then Life manipulation (which i do agree with) But i also feel like its a bit of a stretch.

"All chaos and possibilites are apart of its substance" Which could be chaos manipulation And probability manipulation but still not sure.

ados reasons for having low stamnia seems slugglish. "Low (Gets defeated after attacking Kirby, when the latter doesn't attack her)" That sounds like more of her lacking in durability. so i think it should be Unknown as well.

 

[Somelatinguy]

0) By "most" I mean "Marx" isn't the actual character, as proven below.

- She wakes up just a moment after getting unconscious, but was still knocked out by a character just by touching him, unlike what she proves whenever she's summoned.

a) That's why I said "Then either he… post or the…"; I never said the rod strengthens every single Dream Friend.

- The rod strengthening characters is implied by Adeleine's case.

b) I also said she can defeat enemies with her brush and withstand their attacks if summoned.

- "He" is mentioned with his past actions like "DK" and "Fox" are in SSB's manual (p. 18-19).

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

@LetsGetIt5 Great! Two agreements for Adeleine. The reason I said Void should have life manipulation is because he is the origin of all, meaning he created life.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

0) If he is portrayed as back and forgiven, wouldn't that at least mean he got revived if he supposedly died? It's just as likely as it being a clone.

- Because she is not as weak anymore, or the game wants to non-canonically buff her so she is actually playable. An article even says Ribbon is helping her not get knocked out, so it can even be canon and not the Dream Rod buffing her. Which ever one it may be... a theory that has a lot proving otherwise isn't going to be used on the wiki.

a) Then the Dream Rod having no indication of amplifying characters means it doing it to some and not to others is just gameplay.

- The Dream Rod would barely be strengthening her even if that's the case, not enough to be "Kirby level". I think the theory is kind of falling appart. It's now, 'getting summoned by the Dream Rod makes some characters be strengthened to match Kirby's stats and some aren't, some are even left with their already better stats than Kirby's and not weakened, and Marx is a clone', which is really not something we should use. At this point I could say that Daroach is still possesed by Dark Nebula because he can use the big fire bombs and because he has a jack-in-the-box like weapon of it, despite there being lots that prove he is just stronger than in Kirby Squeak Squad. Why wouldn't Adeleine be stronger than she used to be if Daroach went treasure hunting with his squad for an unknown amount of time? We don't know what Adeleine and Ribbon were doing for the long time they were gone.

b) She is at least large planet level and likely multi-solar system level on her profile because she is portrayed as weak and not as strong as her paintings in the story, meaning there's a chance that her being able to harm stronger enemies is just gameplay to make her playable, which is why she is only likely multi-solar system level. Large planet level is considered weak for the Kirby series, which is why it's like that, because minor enemies like Knuckle Joe are their civilians and characters like Kirby are their idols, so Adeleine may scale to either.

- DK and Fox have their past with them in their Smash iterations. Smash is someone playing with toys, and someone who clearly hasn't looked at the VS Battles Wiki, but they know about the characters they are playing with, and create scenarios. They aren't the canon iterations, but they have the same past as their canon selves, because the person playing at least makes them in character. (Accept Meta Knight cause he is portrayed as a villain in Smash when he's not one in the Kirby series but that's not a big deal cause lots of people make that mistake and it might be a reference to that.)

 

[LetsGetIt5]

James@

yea i also agreed with life manipulation, just thought that a few more abilitlies would come from that statement like the 2 i listed above.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

James@
yea i also agreed with life manipulation, just thought that a few more abilitlies would come from that statement like the 2 i listed above.

That seems pretty good. I think that Void should have all powers of the other characters he wasn't shown to use as well since he created them, but for some reason that wasn't accepted. It was a while ago, and when I wasn't as good at VS debate as I am now, so I don't remember how it went.

 

[LetsGetIt5]

Am sure it was rejected on this thread since it was a headcannon since he never uses those abillites in battle.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

That's the right thread. It's not headcanon, a description of Void mentions that he is the origin of all, meaning he should have all powers of his creations.

 

[LetsGetIt5]

Oh, alright.

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask Eficiente and other staff members listed in the Kirby (Universe) page to comment here.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

You should ask Eficiente and other staff members listed in the Kirby (Universe) page to comment here.

I was just thinking of Eficiente. I will do that.

 

[Somelatinguy]

0.1) No problem with that.

0.2) If she's prevented from being knocked out by Ribbon, then she needs her and is as weak as before; if not, then she's strengthened by either the rod canonically or the devs apocryphally.

1.1) There mayn't be indication for him being powered up by the rod, but what about Marx? He's not stated to retain those moves in his base form.

1.2) Since he's no longer possessed by Dark Nebula, he must receive those moves from the rod, not from the villain.

2.1) Research on point 0.2 may reveal whether her being able to defeat multi-solar system -or peak human- level characters is a GM or a result of the rod strengthening her.

2.2) Even if SSU's True Arena were really an alternate continuity (that may only apply to PR's Extra Mode and True Arena), he's split in two when defeated.

- That being said, DK and Fox have their pasts in their SSB incarnations like he has his past in his SA incarnation.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

0.2) Yes, Adeleine probably needs Ribbon, which is why we have her durability as the weak "at least large planet level," then "likely multi-solar system level" cause there are reasons to believe Adeleine is strong and tough in Kirby Star Allies cause of game mechanics.

1.1) Marx has his boss attacks in midair, when he transforms into his other form. Is this about that or how his balls explode in this game? I thought it was about the balls being bombs.

1.2) So now the Dream Rod has power bestowal?? Daroach would gain fire manipulation from the Dream Rod now. Why would it have so many unexplained powers just cause the characters it summons are different than the way they appeared nine years ago, and for Adeleine, twenty years ago? Even if Earth's time passing isn't canon to the fiction, HAL Laboratories could've at least thought of designing the characters differently over that time, and Adeleine in-game has been stated to be "finally back", so of course they have been away for at least a long time. How do you know that Daroach didn't just learn how to use his enhanced bomb attack without Dark Nebula while he went treasure hunting for years? This is a chargable move unlike the original especially. That's more likely than coming up with powers the Dream Rod has other than summoning to explain it. Instead of all the characters having the power they have, the Dream Rod is just a god, one of the strongest item in the Kirby series, that holds the power to everyone. At least at first that's what it sounded like, but now it's just the same but it can be selective of which characters it gives it's legendary powers to. You know the whole thing with the Dream Rod is that it summons Kirby's past friends and some enemies so that the player can make tier dream team, right? It's not even supposed to edit anything about them.

2.1) So then point 0.2 will be my response.

2.2) Smash is established to be it's own thing, if Marx isn't said to be a different version of himself, it shouldn't be assumed that he is a different version. Like in point 0.2, him being revived is very likely instead of it being an edited clone, along with him not dying in the first place being likely. His last canon appearance/last appearence in combat action was twenty-four years ago, and has at least not been on Popstar for a long time in the story, you really think he hasn't changed or improved and this is the same version of him?

 

[Somelatinguy]

0.2) Well, what are those arguments for her being stronger in SA because of GMs?

1.1) He's permanently transformed in SuSt(U), yet he can change forms in SA.

1.2) It's been 14 years since SqSq's release, not its events; Mario's games have been released since decades, yet he's 24-26 years old in them.

2.2) SSB is a separate series, but uses the same kind of language as other Nintendo series.

- He hasn't been around because he's been dead and is either revived or reincarnated.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

0.2) Adeleine and Ribbon sharing the same stamina bar is game mechanics, the two canonically should have their own unless one of the two have infinite stamina. The fact that when a character is playable, they should be buffed to be actually playable, but it doesn't mean that it's canon power, as it's an example of nonviable powerscaling as linked before. Her being "likely" multi-solar system level is because she might have improved while she was gone, and because she is a Dream Friend, which are characters that are generally strong in this series.

1.1) Nothing implies he was permanently transformed in Kirby Super Star, and this is just his true form as opposed to him hiding his wings, not the Nova's power that gives him wings, and Kirby Star Allies reveals that he can switch between the two forms at will.

1.2) Exactly, though Daroach did leave Popstar for a while in the story, and Adeleine & Ribbon are "finally back", and "Back for a new adventure" meaning they were gone for a while. "Back for a new adventure" is something that the characters say, so this isn't just referring to KirbyÔüÂÔü┤ the Crystal Shards being an old game, along with being "finally back" also doesn't mean that they are talking about the game's age, because those descriptions talk about the canon of the game/s.

2.2) The games are writen by HAL Laboratories, and if Smash wasn't confirmed to be a different canon, it would be assumed that DK and Fox in Smash are their canon selves.

- You forgot about what I said before, ""Forgive me and participate in the rain" is in normal writing: "Marx is forgiven for his past actions and is now able to participate in the adventure.". I don't know why adventure is "rain", but they could mean "fray" or something, pretty much just the battle and chase after the Jamba Hearts.". This was ignored, in the original text Marx was implied to not have died. In the new English text he was also said to have been far away for a while, which should still be taken into consideration. Seeing as how Marx was able to revive himself using Nova in an alternate timeline, why would it be assumed that he gets recovered from the Dream Rod, when the Dream Rod has no indication of having ressurection whatsoever?

 

[Somelatinguy]

0.2) That GM mayn't be canon, but that doesn't mean Adeleine being stronger (because of the rod) isn't a canon one either, and female young painters aren't interested in increasing power.

1.1) He's in that second form even whenever near the floor in SS(U) and him obtaining it was a result of his wish to Nova in that game; so, SA reveals he re-obtains it from the rod.

1.2) The statements do mean they're finally in a new game, otherwise that little girl would appear noticeably older in it than in TCS; so, Daroach re-obtains those moves from the rod.

2.2) So SSB takes place in the same universe as the other Nintendo series now?

- Again, his past is mentioned in SA like DK's and Fox's are in that series, and the rod must have the ability to revive or reincarnate him as he doesn't have Nova in the main continuity.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

0.2) But it wouldn't be the Dream Rod increasing power, it would be her just being stronger in this game cause they want to make her not get one-shot by stuff and be able to harm bosses cause of game mechanics. You are trying to find an canon explanation for it when this is just what most games do. How do you explain Kirby stomping Master Hand? What if Dark Meta Knight is universe level+ cause he split Kirby into four and enhanced their power, but the Dream Rod in this game makes Dark Meta Knight weaker than that like you are saying? You're not the only one who can make theories that are only likely through improper interpretation and over analyzing the feats. If you don't like Kirby being able to summon the Warp Star, then I could say, "why don't they take the Dream Rod with them to use it as a performance enhancing weapon?". Oh, and people can become stronger only on purpose? Adeleine came to Popstar to study art, and this planet features lots of enemies that attack for no reason, dry deserts, very cold climates, volcanoes, etc.. She knows how to draw these types of pictures, she can even do it in Kirby Star Allies. She can be likely strong through experience. It's not like Daroach is lifting weights while looking for treasure either, training isn't the only way to become stronger. This also explains why Adeleine and many others can defeat Hyness, who has eons of elemental magic experience. Whispy Woods and Kracko are ancient age, so it's likely Adeleine likely had a problem with at least one. But this is only likely speculation, hence why Adeleine is only likely multi-solar system level, because it's likely but not a hundred percent definite.

1.1) Marx doesn't automatically turn into his holding back wingless form when on the ground in canon, in Kirby Star Allies, flying just activates the form. Also, Marx's wish was to control Popstar, his winged form has nothing to do with his wish, I remember it, and the Kirby Wiki doesn't say his transformation is cause of the wish either. And again, nothing implies he lost the transformation if he survived the explosion or got revived. Like in Kirby Fighters, Kirby doesn't lose his Copy Ability when resurrecting himself as Ghost Kirby.

1.2) At the end of Kirby Squeak Squad, the Squeak Squad "decide to look elsewhere for treasure", and now they "back", which means they where gone for a while, their last appearance being Kirby Mass Attack. They are also pirates that are constantly looking for any treasure they can, and they don't stay with Kirby often at all.

2.2) Nope. It was confirmed to be non-canon to the main series, but if it wasn't said to be non-canon, and if it weren't a crossover series of course, then we would consider it canon to the main series cause the characters's pasts are in there. The Dream Friends are considered their canon selves cause unlike Smash, they are not said to be different variants of the originals, and it is not a crossover series. And if you meant what I said about HAL Laboratories, they develop the games, not Nintendo, Nintendo only published Kirby games, so however Nintendo write their decriptions in their own games doesn't matter. Masahiro Sakurai didn't write anything in Kirby Star Allies.

3) Also, why don't you show me a time a Dream Rod was said to do anything more than summon characters? That would really help.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Well, Eficiente gave valid arguments to the OP, so I guess this thread can be closed since he knows best. If Somelatinguy wants to not debate anymore that is, since this was originally about Adeleine's stamina, but it turned into whether the Dream Rod has many completely indirectly demonstrated powers or not. If others can change a thread's topic, then it shouldn't be closed.

 

[Somelatinguy]

0.2) MH is tier 9 in physical power / The also tier 9 DMK made four Kirbys that are Kirby level since the instant they were made / The Dream Rod only works in Dream Palaces, otherwise it'd be pointless to find the latter / Adeleine constantly avoids monster, like after joining the puffball that knocked her out by just touching her / Hyness is tier 9 in physical power, too / Whispy Woods and Kracko are tier 9, too… So, you can't simply say "That's just a GM."

1.1) That's why I said "even whenever" as he never changes back in SS(U), he became able to control Pop Star by transforming, the simplest interpretation is that he loses that form after dying, and Fighters isn't even a what-if.

1.2) They're back in a new game, not after a long time, and Mass Attack isn't even a what-if.

2.2) Ok just one proof it's non-canon: Melee Link and Ganondorf can't be the real OoT ones for obvious reasons; and at least SA "Marx" is an incarnation of his character as the real one is dead.

- The aspects I've mentioned help.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

0.2) Master Hand can use non physical power in Kirby and the Amazing Mirror, which Kirby would scale to in durability if it weren't an outlier, and Master Hand can use physical power to hurt Kirby, physical strength being comparable to said durability. This is the reason so many characters that attack using magic have their physical power the same tier. / Dark Meta Knight is multi-solar system level, and I told you I'm done debating about the Kirby characters being that power. And I know Dark Meta Knight made the Kirbys copied as the same power, I'm just doing a similar theory to the Dream Rod being almighty to prove that you're really just finding excuses to downgrade the characters. Of course, Master Hand has verse equilization in the Kirby series for being a crossover character, but if you ignore gameplay only stuff, I can ignore gameplay only stuff. / Adeleine joins Kirby in the Dark Star and she is able to paint Kracko, meaning she has seen him before. Her fighting along with the others in Kirby Star Allies makes sense. / I'm talking about Hyness's non debunkable experience. If they are comparable in combat skill, with Hyness having eons of magic experience, and Adeleine can defeat Hyness, this means that her being as skilled as him is true. This means Adeleine might have gotten more skilled since she has been gone for at least a notable while. / Same explaination as the previous devision.

- I see you are slowly shifting the subject from the OP to eventually continue the conversation of the other thread I told you I don't want to debate with you on.

1.1) When was it said his transformation allowed him to control Popstar? All he did was make a wish to control Popstar, then revealed his true form which gave him stronger powers.

- Øö¥ØòáØòÑ ÔØ£ØòûØò× if Kirby Fighters is not a what-if scenario, then Kirby Brawl Ball isn't a what-if scenario either, and Marx in his true form is the final boss of that game.

1.2) Pause screen descriptions are about the story, and some of the desctiptions of the Dream Friends are about the story in Kirby Star Allies, so prove that they are talking about them being in a new game. The amount of years is non-canon, but not them being gone for a while. And I never said KIrby Mass Attack was a what-if scenario.

2.2) There are reasons to believe Marx didn't die, as I have already mentioned, and we don't know if Marx just survived it and is appearing in Kirby Star Allies, or if he got revived cartoonishly or illogically. It is assumed Marx didnt die, cause he appears in this game, is implied to have not died, and appears in Kirby Brawl Ball..

- I mean that what you're telling me would be more convincing if you found me a time that there is any indication that it