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Kirby Character Revision Attempts Again.

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0.2) MH is tier 9 in offensive magic and physical power / They're actual arguments, not excuses / She's seen Kracko but couldn't have fought it as she's knocked out just by touching Kirby / She can defeat those experienced opponents with the help of Ribbon, her items, and the rod.

- No, you continued it by mentioning Master Hand.

1.1) I mean he had his wish granted by obtaining a more powerful form.

- Ok, no problem with "Kirby Brawl Ball" not being a what-if either.

1.2) The case of "Marx" must be like those of "DK" and "Fox", as he's supposed to be dead / That's why I said it "isn't eve a what-if".

2.2) He's caught in Nova's explosion, the threat is over, and Kirby return home; and even if the game's True Arena were an alternate continuity, he appears dead and being revived in it.

- That same way, what you're telling me would be more convincing if you found him alive in a canon event between those two games'.
 
0.2) I'm talking about his Smash iteration to over emphasize. We don't even need the point. / Not to me and many others, and just like the last slash, there's no need to debate about Master Hand being universe level+ in Kirby, I already know it's a different hand, just like I know the characters being summoned by a Dream Rod doesn't edit them. / But then in Kirby Star Allies, she can fight two of them, so instead of assuming the object that's only used for summoning has some stat amping powers, it's assumed that she had an experience with Kracko, given she has seen him before, and can fight two in this game. And the Kracko she paints is white, a weaker boss just like Adeleine herself, accept a boss that has existed since ancient times. Kracko's Revenge and Parallel Kracko are forms that she can canonically struggle with, but she still did just fine in Heroes in Another Dimension. And don't tell me the literal door that switches characters in Heroes in Another Dimension is some god like power bestowing artifact or something. Ribbon's Crystal Gun can already defeat Zero┬▓, her paintings can already take hits from Kirby, what makes you think that the Dream Rod is doing anything if she and Ribbon sharing one health bar still has such low defence in-game?

- So how come you didn't mention it when I was talking about Adeleine being large planet level and likely multi-star system level? I originally was talking about her stamina, but you mentioned her power being changed by the Dream Rod. Master Hand also had nothing to do with the last debate I said I was done with, so I don't see how mentioning Master Hand changed anything.

1.1) So then why did the Nova go to Popstar? Marx got his wish, then the ancient Nova that says it grants one wish was like, swoosh, let me just run into the sun and the moon real quick. It is stated to be Marx's true form, not an upgraded form he got from the Nova, which wouldn't be a true form, it should be called a final form or super form or something. The Nova was going to go to Popstar to give Marx his wish, while Marx transformed into his true form to fight Kirby.

- So then Marx is confirmed to not have died, unless the pinball machine is a legendary artifact that buffs character power as well.

1.2) How does that say that the pause screen description is talking about the game and not the story? Him being supposed to be dead doesn't change that they are saying he is back.

2.2) I'm not even going to mention the fact that they have consistent star level feats bare minimum, no, I have logical reasons to explain. The alternate timeline shows Marx got very injured and knocked out, but Nova giving Marx life would be two wishes, and the second one he never even asked for. He absorbed the Nova pieces with what he still had of him, and regained health. In that timeline, Marx dies, but in the main timeline, Marx likely got knocked out just like in the other, accept Nova would stick to it's word to only grant one wish, then Marx recovered after a long time, hence why he's considered back, and helping Kirby fight the greater threat in exchange for food. Marx in Kirby Star Allies can regenerate from getting crushed flat, and getting impaled by Flamberge's sizzle flamberge sword, basically regenerating from decapitation, so this supports Marx surviving getting severely injured by the Nova's planet sized explosion.

- Kirby Brawl Ball, I already did.
 
0.2) And I'm talking about either of them / They're objectively arguments / She could've only seen him for the reason I said, the Crystal kills 02 by shooting at his weak point, her paintings can only take a few hits from Kirby, and that low defense is still higher than when she was knocked out just by touching him thanks to the rod.

- "How do you explain Kirby stomping Master Hand?" can only be answered with what I had to say.

1.1) That's why I said "[o]btaining it was a result of" rather than "the", Nova granted one wish in two ways, and that statement is a mistranslation.

- "Kirby Brawl Ball" being a non-what-if mini-game of an already non-canon game means its content doesn't count.

1.2) My bad, that was about the Squeak Squad; well, even if it were definitely about the story, it doesn't say how long they were elsewhere, but they're back when Adeleine is still a little girl.

2.2) The moon-sized Nova revives him by getting its power absorbed by his body, not as a second wish / For food? / Hazards' levels must be decreased by artistic license.

- See the second "-".
 
0.2) We don't even need to debate about it, I was only giving my example of a theory that is unlikely. / They're arguments, but I mean many people and I don't think they are good arguments, which is why I am trying to avoid talking about it. / If she can fight two of them in Kirby Star Allies, it's likely she has had an experience him before, cause she would not know how to compete with his high skill if not. Unless she just became so strong because of reasons unexplained, since this applies to all playable characters. Why would shooting at a weak point matter? That would just mean that Zero┬▓ has invulnerability or far higher durability on those parts of it's body if shooting there is ineffective, but then comparable stats to Kirby for it's weak points, so the Crystal Gun still is comparable to Kirby and Zero┬▓.

- Even if Master Hand were tier 9, Kirby is still supposed to be weaker than it, cause I was using a composite of Master Hand to make my theory unrealistic in the proper interpretation.

1.1) Nova was not said to grant the one wish in two ways, and since Marx's other form is called his true form, it's more likely he can use it whenever he wants. My Kirby Brawl Ball explanation would also prove this more.

- Kirby Squeak Squad is a spin-off, it doesn't mean it's non-canon. What do you want he to tell you? That wiki is using incorrect wording when saying that it's considered separate from the main series. It is completely canon, it is just a differently styled game, just like all of them that are listed there in the spin-off section.

1.2) Adeleine is just young, it's not like she will look that much older after even two years. The amount of time that goes by is unknown, but it's for a while, like months, a year, or a few years. In between each adventure, "peace was returned to Dream Land" is commonly said, and assumed. It's not like there's a dark powerful threat that appears on Popstar every few weeks, or even months. The characters have lives, not just fighting constant invasions every day.

2.2) But the Nova exploded, and lacks a soul or something to maybe do things after death through magic. And even if I'm wrong, the Nova helping Marx again shouldn't happen. It using it's powers is considered a wish, and so Marx is likely the one who absorbed it's power, being very injured and crippled if not for his Regenerationn. Marx is likely the one who got healed by absorbing the piece of the Nova, especially since the Nova reformed itself in another what-if scenario. Nova didn't give Marx another favour in the main timeline, causing him to regenerate himself over time. / A pause screen said Marx is Kirby's friend in this game cause Kirby keeps him well fed. It also says he wants to fight the greater threat, the food is the reason he is specifically teaming up with Kirby, especially since they have experience with each other, albeit negatively. / Is this talking about the Regenerationn? If it were more violent, they would still regenerate from it, cause that's the way the game works. It's not like these attacks are going to one-shot the playable characters.
 
0.2) She couldn't have gained experience from when she was knocked out just by touching Kirby to when she's still a little girl to the point of being able to defeat two Krackos / Neither she nor him is comparable to the Crystal, as they need it to damage 02's weak point.

- Kirby is supposed to be weaker than Master Hand?

1.1) Again, that statement is a misTranslation, and his wish was to control Pop Star, which Nova granted by flying to Pop Star and giving him more power.

- Squeak Squad? Anyway, the text just above "Main series" mentions the criteria; and only Extra Modes and True Arenas are what-ifs, which may even only include those of Planet Robobot.

1.2) Since Mario has tons of adventures in under two years, Adeleine can be in a twelfth adventure only months after a sixth one.

2.2) Nova is linked to the last individual to wish upon it, as proven when he involuntarily flies to its core after he's defeated, so it revives him without a soul or another wish / Ok / Artistic license applies to every form of fiction, so game system has nothing to do with this.
 
0.2) And because of good reasons that prove otherwise, as well as being a Dream Friend and it only being likely, that's why Adeleine has large planet level and multi-solar system level distinction in her durability only. It's not like anything we are talking about is changing the facts HAL Laboratories provided, like her not being as strong as her paintings. / The Crystal Gun is never said to be required canonically. When King Dedede launched Kirby and Ribbon to Zero┬▓, they had the Crystal Gun with them, Ribbon was quick to grab Kirby and Kirby grabbed the Crystal Gun to use in combat. There was nothing stopping Kirby from using the Warp Star to stand and suck Zero┬▓'s projectiles to spit them back at him. You may say they can't get the true ending without enough Crystal Shards to form the Crystal Gun, but Zero┬▓ does not appear if the protagonists have missing Crystal Shards because those are the things he is looking for in the first place. Kirby can also harm and get harmed by Void Termina without the Star Allies Sparkler, who is stronger than Zero┬▓, so that would be a contradiction. The Crystal Gun is still used in Kirby Star Allies, and is comparable to the same characters Kirby and the others fight, more proof that Kirby only used the Crystal Gun cause it is more powerful but not their only hope.

- The Smash Bros. one yes.

1.1) First: The Nova giving Marx the power to control Popstar means it had no buisness doing it for Marx, because that would be another favour. That is what happened though, and because Marx can switch between the form in Kirby Star Allies, and Kirby Brawl Ball I guess, it's not just proof that it's his true form? Instead it is apparently bogus. There's not just going to be two ways to grant one wish, when a wish granter says they're granting one wish, it should be taken seriously.

Second: If Marx gained the power to control Popstar, then instead of just, going to Popstar that the apparently not planet level Kirby can't do anything about, he waits off of the planet, and once the Nova is defeated by Kirby, Marx fights Kirby off of the planet as well. Wouldn't the explaination be Marx is waiting for the Nova to do it's thing, then fights Kirby off of the planet because going to Popstar would do nothing, as the Nova failed?

- Oops I mean Kirby Mass Attack, I was just thinking of Daroach. "When it comes to spin-off titles, a few can be seen as being part of the overall storyline, but none have been confirmed by HAL to be so." So if it's not confirmed to be non-canon, likely appart of the overall storyine, and it's widely agreed upon by non-casuals that spin-offs are canon, then your wrong. On Fandom's Kirby Wiki, Kirby Mass Attack is considered canon, so which wiki is correct?

1.2) Don't compare Kirby to Mario, Kirby games are developed by HAL Laboratories, Mario is developed by Nintendo. Not only is Mario seemingly starting to get grey hairs, it's illogical for Mario to be the same age throughout all these adventures.

2.2) I know the Nova is on Marx's side, but Kirby was the one that summoned it. Marx just stole the wish, then the Nova is somehow on Marx's side? That's likely, since the Nova failed to do what Marx asked, further proof that Marx's true form is not caused by the Nova. Though the Nova literally exploded into pieces, and needed Meta Knight to re-summon it later to regenerate, so I think it was destroyed. / I still don't see how there would be a difference between it being violent or not. They can still regenerate from it. Being decapitated in none disturbing ways and surviving still counts as Regenerationn from decapitation, despite it being inaccurate to the real world. We don't have wish granting clockwork stars to depict fiction accurately to the real world, but there's still a profile of it (being the Nova).
 
What were Eficiente's conclusions regarding this?
 
0) What are those good reasons proving otherwise? / They using it would be pointless if they didn't need it, and he can damage VT's core without the SAS but with Star Bullets or Copy Abilities.

- Not that one, either; he's defeated by a fighter in every single game, and Tabuu defeats him with an attack weaker than the one he defeats Ganondorf with.

1.1a) Another favor Ôëá Another wish, and he may've gotten that second form back from the rod.

- Yes, but that doesn't mean Nova didn't give him more power.

1.1b) I said "… text just above…", and what page of the Fandom Wiki says it's canon?

- "Kirby Brawl Ball" isn't even the Mass Attack game but a non-what-if mini-game of its.

1.2) Both series still use similar style, please show when Mario's hair seems to start getting gray, and he's still stated to be 24-26.

- And even if years passed between SqSq's and SA's events, Daroach gets those large red bombs and wider beam from a corrupted from, so it's less likely that he learns those moves than that he receives them from the rod.

2.2) Wishing upon it is what counts, so Nova isn't link to the individual summoning it but to the one making the wish and revives him with that link / Please show that decapitation.
 
0) I've already put them in this thread. / The phase of Void Termina that looks like Kirby is his true form, and Kirby not being able to damage Void without Star Bullets or Copy Abilities is false canonically, there is nothing stopping him from rolling into a ball to attack like he's done before, it's just the way the game works. He can also damage Void's true form with Friend Hearts, things he can create.

- Smash's canon doesn't matter to me, but I'll debate about it anyway. Master Hand is the creator of the Smash universe, and is portrayed as stronger than the Smash fighters so getting defeated by them is invalid. The hand doesn't want to break it's toys, does it? The only consistent feat Master Hand has is creating the Smash world and being higher than the fighters, Tabuu is just stronger for some reason. Given his name, Tabuu is likely trying to stomp Master Hand from playing with toys. I'm pretty sure Tabuu is stronger than the characters too, defeating Ganondorf easily, so defeating Master Hand with a weaker attack than that just means Tabuu is that powerful.

1.1a) So why didn't Nova help Meta Knight defeat Galacta Knight like it helped Marx try to take over Popstar? If the Nova is happy to help the wisher, then it would've powered up Meta Knight to help defeat Galacta Knight with ease, but that didn't happen. That was the same timeline he gave Marx a favour after his wish. I'm going to use Kirby Brawl Ball to explain this part along with how there's no concrete proof of the Dream Rod doing anything else besides summoning.

1.1b) The text just above says "While some of these games have an argument for being included in the overall storyline, they are marked as separate from the main series:" meaning some games are able to be argued to be canon, and others are just not apart of the trilogy of the main games. More like Kirby Wiki has a template that appears on pages or sections that discuss topics separate from the main series canon, that doesn't appear in any spin-off like Kirby Mass Attack, and is not said to be non-canon anywhere I look.

Seeing as how you love to ignore plot-induced stupidity unless it proves you wrong, I'm asking you again, why would Marx not go to Popstar as soon as he could if the Nova supposedly gave him his alternate form, giving him the power to control Popstar?

- I'll be debunking Kirby Mass Attack being non-canon in the other points.

1.2) I don't think they have similar styles. If you zoom into his moustache in Super Mario Odyssey, in promotional art, he has grey strands of hair.

- They are just enhanced versions of his regular attacks, he doesn't utilize darkness in any of them. And why would the Dream Rod give Daroach dark powers anyway?


2.2) The Nova failed to obey Marx by letting him control Popstar, which is why it might have given Marx pieces of it to reform. / I also meant severe brain damage or just what "mid" says in the Regenerationn section. Flamberge impaling Marx right through his face here counts, regardless of if his head came off, he should be dead without mid Regenerationn. Same with getting crushed flat in the same game, that would cause brain damage. And don't make the excuse that Flamberge is weaker than Marx, cause she is taking hits from four of them that are spamming in that clip.
 
Galactagod said:
Should Marx have Low-godly Regenerationn? He came back to life in mass attack despite his soul being sliced in half and exploded.
Click to expand...
No no, his soul getting split was in an alternate timeline. In Kirby Mass Attack, it was revealed that Marx survived the explosion of the Nova in Milky Way Wishes, the The True Arena is an alternate timeline where Marx actually died. If it was true, that would be mid-godly, not low-godly.
 
0) We're talking about her power increase from TCS to SA; if not, then please forgive me for my bad memory / Then VT's true form is weaker than the huge armor Kirby needs the SAS against, CC and TRC being non-canon stops the puffball from being able to do that, and Friend Hearts are items too.

- The toys can be broken by the kid, but the characters represented by them are stronger than his hand / Ganondorf being instantaneously defeated by Tabuu's charged and large ball and MH resisting his instantaneously created and thin wall for 1.5 seconds means they're comparable.

1.1a) Because Meta Knight's wish is to fight Galacta Knight with his own power.

1.1b) That text is below "Spin-offs" -see the one just above "Main series", please-, and non-main games are canon only if confirmed, something that only happened to Dream Collection Special Editio on a certain Miiverse post.

- Because he's waiting for the other half of the wish to be granted.

1.2) They're more similar to each other than to Zelda or Metroid, and those "gray strands" must be illumination details unless you post the link.

- He doesn't use darkness with those moves but obtains them from a corrupted form, and the rod would give them back to him in order to make him more comparable to the others.

2) How did Nova fail to obey him? And "t might have given Marx pieces of it to reform" contradicts your "[It] lacks a soul or something to maybe do things after death" argument / I don't see any decapitation, and of course Kirby characters are tougher than humans.
 
Before I reply to the point ones, there is lots more covering the tree than one thing, so don't think that that one thing is just all that there is to this being considered a waste of time. It ties with the other stuff we are talking about.
 
And the English version just adds information, who it was. The Japanese version says it's the Nova's power, but the English version is more descriptive, saying Marx absorbed the Nova's power.
 
0) I remember saying that she may or may not have high tier durability, because she has help from Ribbon and is said to not be as tough as her paintings, but is also a Dream Friend that might have gotten more experienced since the last time she was seen. / The true form seems to be portrayed as a stronger form. All the pause screen does is show the lyrics to the Song of Supplication, while the pause screens to the others have actual information, along with the ones in the Ultimate Choice describing it better, at least Void Soul. Those two games are also canon like Kirby Mass Attack, I really don't need to be explaining this, if this is what's preventing me from getting through, spin-offs being non-canon despite that being widely agreed upon to be not true, then I don't know what to tell you, he can do so many attacks that don't involve the opponent's power if those games are non-canon. If it's the rules that it's canon, it's not me making it up, you just need to not deny that it's canon.

- Master Hand wouldn't want his toys broken, which is why he is not using his full power on the fighters. / Ganon being one-shot shouldn't be assumed that the weaker attack wouldn't one-shot either. It doesn't one-shot the characters in gameplay, but Tabuu being superior to Master Hand as well as Tabuu easily turning them all into trophies means he is also stronger.

1.1a) And if Marx wished for his own power to be increased to take over Popstar, then the Nova had no business flying into the planet. Also the English version is more descriptive than the Japanese version, making it valid that Marx was the one who absorbed the Nova. Marx in Kirby Brawl Ball is still another response of mine.

1.1b) That's the wiki's own made up rules, read ours, and these rules are agreed upon by more than just this wiki and Fandom's Kirby Wiki. I read all of the stuff in "Canonicity between titles" and already made counters for them, I'm not interested in going in circles.

- Marx asked for control over Popstar, while Nova starts heading to Popstar and before he transforms, he said that it worked. If he got the power to control Popstar, that means he is planet level and would've survived the Nova explosion, apparently being only moon level, then the Nova would go to Popstar to give Marx control over it like he actually asked. If you mean Nova gave Marx controlling reality warping powers that only work on Popstar, then there is no steps to the wish, Nova was on it's way to do that, Marx transforms into his own form, and if that transformation was because of the Nova, then there is still no explanation as to why he didn't go to Popstar right away. It's either Marx is stupid, which is false cause of his amazing plan to trick Kirby, or Marx is planet level and survived the Nova explosion due to the wish. If not, then this is his own true form that he can switch between, meaning him having it in Kirby Star Allies is not because of the Dream Rod.

1.2) Their really not, Mario's a platforming game while Kirby is a beat-em-up and fighting game. I don't know how Kirby's officially a platformer, he can fly, and there's hardly any platforming in the games. Mario is starting to get grey hair.

- If they are just enhanced versions of his already existing moves, why wouldn't he be able to learn them on his own, since he has already used them before when possessed by Dark Nebula? And how does this make him comparable to the others? Other than Waddle Doo who literally breaks the game, the Dream Friends are all way better characters than Kirby and the ones that can be turned into allies by a Friend Heart. Not counting King Dedede and Meta Knight, and I guess Whispy Woods, you get my point. Them being so good isn't the Dream Rod making them comparable, it's making them far stronger than the others. This is clearly just game mechanics, accept for stuff like Zan Partizanne being fast, King Dedede and Adeleine having different durability, etc..

2) The Nova failed to get to Popstar, cause Kirby stopped it, so if it wasn't Marx who actually absorbed the piece, then the Nova would do something else to help Marx because the form he got wasn't from the Nova, and wanted to give Marx his wish. You where the one that brought up the Nova being bound to the one who granted a wish, not me. If anything, you're just admitting you're wrong by me accidentally getting convinced by you. I did say I agree with the Nova being bound to the one that made the wish, don't you remember? Until I saw the pause screen that debunked it, but if not that, then you are saying that you are wrong. / Flamberge is comparable to Marx, so it doesn't matter if they are tougher than humans. And Marx is pretty much already a head with feet, so he is recovering from brain damage or severe injury here, giving him mid Regenerationn.
 
0) Then "because of good reasons that prove otherwise" was a circular argument / Kirby clearly needing the SAS to defeat the armor and just Star Bullets, Copy Abilities, or Friend Hearts to defeat him directly is more valid than that interpretation of those screens; and see point 1.1b.

- The kid doesn't want his toys broken, but his hand's representation wants to defeat the fighters (see the trophy descriptions) / Yet the weaker attack one-shoots MH, and Tabuu not being able to one-shot the fighters in gameplay can be explained by this.

1.1a) Nova has business flying into Pop Star as the other half of the wish / "More descriptive" translations are mistranslations; and even if that one weren't a mistranslation, "He absorbed a Nova's power" is like "The corpse absorbed the sun's rays" and "to bring back his evil soul" means Marx's soul had left him and he was dead / See point 1.1b again.

1.1b) TD was stated to be the 10th classic platformer, which means the platformer genre is a valid criteria, and the "µÿƒÒü«Òé½Òâ╝ÒâôÒéú" one is valid too regardless of which wiki mentions it.

- He says his plans worked, getting the power to control Pop Star is like Piccolo Daimaō having the power to control Earth, and he waits for the wish's other half to be granted before fighting Kirby.

1.2) I mean similar content style, not gameplay style; and men start getting grey hair "in the early to mid-twenties."

- You've said it, when possessed by Dark Nebula, so he wouldn't re-obtain them in any other way than from the rod; and Dream Friends are way better than Kirby like a Bulbasaur is better than a Charmander or Squirtle on certain situations.

2) While linked to the one with the wish, a comet without a soul can't be conscious after destruction and want to make it up to Marx, so that occurs without its decision / Or he just can withstand those attacks but also the latter's levels are decreased by artistic license.

3) Finally, to prove Marx couldn't survived Nova's explosion, he's defeated by Kirby, who…

- Can't destroy the comet by himself and needs the villain to involuntarily fly to its core.

- Can't even destroy the columns creating the barrier protecting its core without the Starship.

- Needs to summon it as he can't stop the moon-sized sun and moon that struggle to stop it.
 
Okay.

I would appreciate a reply to my earlier question then.
 
Okay. Perhaps we should close this thread soon then?

I think that Life Manipulation seems to make sense though.

However, I also think that we have calculated galaxy-moving feats before, and that they ended up at 4-A.
 
Thank you. I will close this thread then.
 
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