King Hassan VS Kindred: REDUX

[WeeklyBattles]

LoL's cosmology is low 1-C, potentially higher

 

[Rocker1189]

You realize that Tiamat is a type 3 acausal over a 2-A range right. Ive heard that the LoL cosmology is about that large, so it should still work. Also, all servants can hit abstracts due to being able to hit Mara

acausality has nothing to do with it. abstract existence does. she is a type 2 not a type 1 abstract. And yeah as Weekly said LoL cosmology has gone up yet again.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

@Weekly scans if you please

@Rocker idek What your point is here. Mara is a type 2 nonexistent being, which is at least comparable to abstracts in terms of how hard they are to hit.

 

[Rocker1189]

@Weekly scans if you please
@Rocker idek What your point is here. Mara is a type 2 nonexistent being, which is at least comparable to abstracts in terms of how hard they are to hit.

the void cosumes multiple layers of existence which is 5-D.

being able to affect a type 2 does not mean you can affect a type 1 is my point.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

That really is not at all without a lot of further context

A type 2 nonexistent being lacks the concept of existence. I'm not talking about this in terms of AE, but a type 2 nonexistent should be comparable to a type 1 abstract

 

[SchroKatze]

Mara a type 2? You sure? Type 2 NEP is way more than just "i dont have a concept". And where did KH hit Mara?

Btw, KH's killing power isn't compared to Shiki's MEoDP in terms of potency, but just that they function by "killing" things.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Type 2 NEP is conceptual nonexistence, which Mara fits and any servant can hit her. Also, on the MEoDP thing, yeah my bad, I've been corrected on that by several people.

 

[Rocker1189]

That really is not at all without a lot of further context
A type 2 nonexistent being lacks the concept of existence. I'm not talking about this in terms of AE, but a type 2 nonexistent should be comparable to a type 1 abstract

what other context they affect multiple layers of existence that is 5-D by definition.

lacking the concept of existence has nothing to do with being an abstraction. type 2 nonexistence are not comprabale to type 1 abstracts, type 2 you do not need to affect the abstraction and nonexistence you only need to be able to affect nonexistents and type 1 you are required to affect the abstraction itself.

 

[SchroKatze]

Mara is a Type 2 Abstract Being, not NEP. Type 1 abstractsvare WAY harder to hit than Type 2

Type 1 NEP with Type 2 Abstract Existence.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

@Rocker it isnt, otherwise Fate would be full of 1-C shit via it's layers. This simply is not enough.

Type 2 nonexistents are the lack of an abstraction. The lack of a body is considered harder to hit than a body, so by all rights type 2 nonexistents should be harder to hit than abstracts.

@Schro idk why that's listed as type 1, it was going to be type 2 but it got changed for some reason even though it fits it.

 

[SchroKatze]

Maybe it got rejected, since its also listed that her abstraction is tied to the universe itself.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

It was questioned a few times because there was confusion over what type 2 NEP actually was at the time. All of the concept people I've asked say that it's conceptual nonexistence

 

[Rocker1189]

@Rocker it isnt, otherwise Fate would be full of 1-C shit via it's layers. This simply is not enough.
Type 2 nonexistents are the lack of an abstraction. The lack of a body is considered harder to hit than a body, so by all rights type 2 nonexistents should be harder to hit than abstracts.

@Schro idk why that's listed as type 1, it was going to be type 2 but it got changed for some reason even though it fits it.

Pretty sure fate did have higher D stuff for this exact types of reasons also wasnt fate's rejected because of some contradictory info? and due to the nature of the moon cell and whatnot. this is not the case with LoL.

no they really should not, because this type 2 does indeed have a body, unlike kindred. and affecting an entire abstract is not really comprabale to affecting a type 2 without one.

 

[SchroKatze]

If she still is an abstraction, tied to the universe and all, than its not a Type 2

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

@Rocker Fate's layers have more elaboration than youve shown me, and still aren't applicable to the current higher-d standards afaik

You do realize that your body is part of you, and that when the concept of you doesnt exist, your body doesn't either, right

@Schro that has no bearing on whether or not she's a type 2 nonexistent

 

[SchroKatze]

It has. A type 2 NEP wouldn't have that.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Let's see...LoL has beings that:

• Are blatantly stated to need 3-D avatars to interact with lower levels of reality
• View linear time as a joke/oddity/useless
• Can fully view the causality scope of a 2-A 4-D multiverse and describe this multiverse as a lower realm
• Describe a 4-D 2-A multiverse as finite and confined
• Are flat out stated to be higher-dimensional/extradimensional/multi-dimensional

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Let's see...LoL has beings that:

• Are blatantly stated to need 3-D avatars to interact with lower levels of reality
• View linear time as a joke/oddity/useless concept
• Can fully view the causality scope of a 2-A 4-D multiverse and describe this multiverse as a lower realm
• Describe a 4-D 2-A multiverse as finite and confined
• Are flat out stated to be higher-dimensional/extradimensional/multi-dimensional

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Type 2 NEP is harder to hit than Type 1 abstracts even if said abstracts are derived from type 2 concepts

Abstracts are literally living concepts, yet someone with NEP Type 2 lacks this on a conceptual level. Not even someone with conceptual manip type 2 can affect them, unless you have feats

 

[Rocker1189]

@Rocker Fate's layers have more elaboration than youve shown me, and still aren't applicable to the current higher-d standards afaik
You do realize that your body is part of you, and that when the concept of you doesnt exist, your body doesn't either, right

@Schro that has no bearing on whether or not she's a type 2 nonexistent

because they have contradictions like I said and due to the nature of the verse, and I dont see what other elaboration is needed over, consuming layers of existence. It honestly just sounds like stonewalling, if you have an issue with Fate's situation then make a CRT its not me that is stopping you.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

@Schro the other abilities a type 2 nonexistent don't preclude it from being that unless they contradict it, which those doesn't

@Weekly

• that is just 4D
• this doesn't relate to tiering at all
• scans
• scans
• at best 4D, probably useless normally

 

[Rocker1189]

when some 3D beings who use the power of celestials rode celestial dragons to targon (where the higher D being reside) they were able to see the beginning of the universe itself.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

@Rocker they don't afaik. The layers are occasionally mentioned and are apparently the reason that Avalon is supposed to be 6D. I also don't have an issue with the current ratings and I'm not stonewalling. If anything, you are by refusing to give further evidence of LoL' s layers beinf higher-d

That has nothing to do with tiering and is just immeasurable speed

 

[Rocker1189]

@Rocker they don't afaik. The layers are occasionally mentioned and are apparently the reason that Avalon is supposed to be 6D. I also don't have an issue with the current ratings and I'm not stonewalling. If anything, you are by refusing to give further evidence of LoL' s layers beinf higher-d

so they are are indeed using them I dont see what the problem is?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Because Avalon and shit being 6D is extremely controversial and not really pushed very hard in matches afaik

 

[Moritzva]

I have not heard of 1-A Nasuverse anytime recently, but

I still see logistical problems with putting the concept of death, on the concept of death. Like, how is that even suppose to work? Obviously Kindred isn't 1-A but I fundamentally don't get what that's suppose to do. If Hassan has put the concept of death on the concept of death before (which is a very, very Nasu-thing to do) then sure, but otherwise that's still kinda ridiculous.

If we can conclusively agree that Fate's concept of death is significantly stronger than Kindred's, though, then sure. So, what's the backup for this 1-A claim?

Also, no, Kindred is definitely not 1-A that's even more ridiculous.

 

[Rocker1189]

@Rocker they don't afaik. The layers are occasionally mentioned and are apparently the reason that Avalon is supposed to be 6D. I also don't have an issue with the current ratings and I'm not stonewalling. If anything, you are by refusing to give further evidence of LoL' s layers beinf higher-d
That has nothing to do with tiering and is just immeasurable speed

It does have to do with tier, because wjhere they went to is targon a dimension that exists above the usual one. You can only get through it by climbing a ridiculusly large mountain and hoping you get accepted.

A single LoL multiverse is made up of countless 4D structures this is explained in the Kindred page linked above, The Void encompasses the entire thing as unreality compared to reality.

battle with the void has lead to the destruction of multiple worlds, with the quote above we know that those world are existences them selves.

All this puts the void at the very least above 4D which would be 5D.

 

[Rocker1189]

I have not heard of 1-A Nasuverse anytime recently, but
I still see logistical problems with putting the concept of death, on the concept of death. Like, how is that even suppose to work? Obviously Kindred isn't 1-A but I fundamentally don't get what that's suppose to do. If Hassan has put the concept of death on the concept of death before (which is a very, very Nasu-thing to do) then sure, but otherwise that's still kinda ridiculous.

If we can conclusively agree that Fate's concept of death is significantly stronger than Kindred's, though, then sure. So, what's the backup for this 1-A claim?

Also, no, Kindred is definitely not 1-A that's even more ridiculous.

Dont think anyone said Kindred is 1-A, I am not arguing even close to that. Also no Hassan has not been able to do that

 

[Moritzva]

There was a short stint above claiming stuff regarding verse equalization, and some people took it out of context. I don't believe anyone is claiming it, and if they are, they are wrong.

But yes, if their concepts of death are equal, it 100% will not work on Kindred.

 

[Rocker1189]

There was a short stint above claiming stuff regarding verse equalization, and some people took it out of context. I don't believe anyone is claiming it, and if they are, they are wrong.
But yes, if their concepts of death are equal, it 100% will not work on Kindred.

Just wait till rito gives LoL 1-A since they love upgrading the verse

And yeah Kindred is def not 1-A.

 

[SchroKatze]

The concept of death isn't stronger in Nasu, it isn't 1-A or etc. The type 2 NEP is being debated and isn't even accepted at the moment too, so drop it.

Kindred also lacks a body, and every death is them. Really, they are the event of "death" happening. The very concept. Unless KH can kill what even allows him to kill something, he can't kill Kindred.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

@Rocker

• i'd like some scans foor Targon being 4D. Also going back to see the birth of the universe is either time travel or speed, ir has nothing to do with tiers
• scans
• unless those worlds have more elaboration its 4D at best

 

[Moritzva]

Leaning on my first jungler for this one. No vote yet.

Going to downgrade LoL via me being killed by large frogs and small raptor babies repeatedly.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

The concept of death isn't stronger in Nasu, it isn't 1-A or etc. The type 2 NEP is being debated and isn't even accepted at the moment too, so drop it.

Kindred also lacks a body, and every death is them. Really, they are the event of "death" happening. The very concept. Unless KH can kill what even allows him to kill something, he can't kill Kindred.

The MEoDP can kill someone so hard that they cannot return to Akasha, which is still far above anything ive seen for the LoL cosmology so far

None of that matters. Hassan is not trying to force Kindred onto Kindred. Killing concepts is enough to affect Kindred

 

[Rocker1189]

@Rocker

• i'd like some scans foor Targon being 4D. Also going back to see the birth of the universe is either time travel or speed, ir has nothing to do with tiers
• scans
• unless those worlds have more elaboration its 4D at best

They did not time travel or use speed they went to mount targon(the summit), and viewed the world from there which is part of where the 4D comes from.

The other being the consuming of entire layers of existence and time 1 layer and time would be 4D another on top of that is 5D.

scans of what I mentioned the Kindred page which has scans in it. Yeah its 4D and the void encompasses them which is 5D.

 

[Moritzva]

I just realized, nobody did Kindred vs Yogiri.

...back on the thread, could you elaborate a bit on Akasha? How is it far above, and how much?

 

[Rocker1189]

None of that matters. Hassan is not trying to force Kindred onto Kindred. Killing concepts is enough to affect Kindred

so he is going to use the concept of death to kill the concept of death? That makes no sense, like it literally cant work because he would lose the concept of death meaning he cant kill the concept of death.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I just realized, nobody did Kindred vs Yogiri.
...back on the thread, could you elaborate a bit on Akasha? How is it far above, and how much?

We did

Kindred stomps for now

 

[Rocker1189]

I just realized, nobody did Kindred vs Yogiri.
...back on the thread, could you elaborate a bit on Akasha? How is it far above, and how much?

honestly akasha does not matter since hassan is not related to MEoDP.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

• ok fair
• that's not how we treat this. You have to prove that the layers are transcendent over each other for that to be the case.
• simply being bigger than a 4D thing does not make you 5D unless you are infinitely bigger