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Kind of a Adventure Time CRT, but not really. (It might become one though)

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RatherClueless

RatherClueless

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I have read through the Adventure Time profiles and started to have a lot of questions, as well as issues with some of the scaleing and calcs, so I made this Blog about it.

I apolgize for the messiness of it. We can talk about one character at a time OwU
 
You should ask them to comment here. Otherwise the discussion will turn chaotic.

For the record, I think that our Adventure Time statistics seem ridiculously exaggerated, and that the verse likely has the same type of "anybody can fight anybody" scaling as Marvel Comics, or is populated by glass cannons, or both in combination, but that is an argument from incredulity.
 
It has a lot of glass canons with one of the rare exceptions being Finn (since he would die all the time otherwise)
 
I guess i might aswell copy my answer to here then.

The Ice King should most certainly scale to his own Magic in durability (At least to a certain extent), considering that he was mostly fine after tanking a explosion caused by his powers clashing with Flame Princess' fire. Finn was capable of regularly harming and defeating him since Season 1, and I am pretty sure he once deflected his Ice Magic with a kick.

What I was talking about was the amount of times he defeated the IK without kicking off his crown (0) and the amount of times he managed to break free from his ice (once in the pilot and once he broke through some thin shackles)

Storms are fully applicable to regular Attack Potency, yes. It is absurd to think that the energy he generates in seconds and while not exerting himself in the slighest is somehow thousands of times greater than what he generates while actively using his Magic and actually exerting himself.

I dont think it is combat applicable because it resulted from the fight between FP and the IK. Storms are created by hot air (FP) and cold air (IK) mixing, so wether he could do anything like that on his own is questionable. It is also the most massive thing he ever did on his own... The biggest issue would be the size though, which I talk about in the calc issue part.

Angrily typing in capslock isn't going to help get your point across, just saying

Its getting annoying if this is basically the only justification under every profile in the verse... I also justified it under Charlies profile.

We actually do see the Nameless Alien standing frozen in the background of the Citadel.

Thx, that proves my first point.

Finn did actually use them shortly before his confrontation with Orgalog, and even says he synchronized his mind with the Universe after doing the thing.

Wait what? Now that I cant remember. To what extent?

Considering how the world as a whole appears to have regressed quite a bit since the Mushroom War and the supposed incident with the Crown, I don't think it is a stretch to say the World got frozen. But then again, I haven't watched that episode in quite some time, so I might be misremembering something.

I went a bit more in deph in the calc issue section, but yeah, the world does not look great afterward.

Considering Finn was actually able to break the Demon Blood Sword, I do think his Striking Strength scales to it to an extent. This should probably be clarified in the profiles though.


I wanted to ask why "being made up of Kee-Oths blood" yields any strikeing strenght when we dont know how tough the sword is...

Lastly, I think you should make an organized Content Revision Thread tackling this issue. This blog is honestly really hard to follow and pretty badly structured if you ask me, I don't think anyone will have the patience or the energy to read through all that.

I get that, Its pretty darn messy alright. One of the reasons why I made it this way is because "everyone scales to everyone" and to debunk "moon level" for example, you need to debunk four or five more profiles, so I just did "all" of them. Also, I might actually just get myself those two books just because of it.

To make it short, the biggest issues are scaleing with little to no reason; many outdated profiles; characters getting moon level, even though the referenced calcs are city level; characters getting scaled to characters, that dont even have the key; anyone scaleing from Orgalorg for not absorbing the comet and the wanked size of Ooo.
 
I dont think it is combat applicable because it resulted from the fight between FP and the IK. Storms are created by hot air (FP) and cold air (IK) mixing, so wether he could do anything like that on his own is questionable.

We actually see the Storm forming as both of them approach each other, it wasn't necessarily a result of their fight, since neither of them started to directly attack each other at that point. Considering that the Ice King actually displayed the ability to control the Weather on several occasions, him having been responsible for that storm isn't too far-fetched.

The biggest issue would be the size though, which I talk about in the calc issue part.

I will leave that to people who actually know about calculations and stuff, since I am not too well-versed on that

Thx, that proves my first point.

The one about the Alien having likely been captured by the Guardians without a fight? I think that's really unlikely, considering that the Lich didn't actually react against them because his desire was to reach the Citadel, which is kind of a very specific case. The Alien having been actually overpowered by the Guardians isn't headcanon, it's just a reasonable, educated assumption, especially when you consider that all of the criminals imprisoned in the Citadel immediately tried to fight back and escape from the place, the Lich having been the sole exception.

Wait what? Now that I cant remember. To what extent?

Here

I went a bit more in deph in the calc issue section, but yeah, the world does not look great afterward.

I will leave most of that for the Calc Group Members, like I said earlier. But saying that the ice only reached the top of Skycrapers seems kind of ridiculous, considering we see a vision of the Earth's condition as seen from space in the exact same scene, and it is completely encased by a massive dome of ice.

I wanted to ask why "being made up of Kee-Oths blood" yields any strikeing strenght when we dont know how tough the sword is...

Well, it did block attacks from Marceline with the Nightosphere Amulet, though we don't know how serious she was.

Now, I have to say that calling the scalling that makes The Lich and the Primordial Monster 5-B "headcanon" is really unfounded. The Lich and Primordial Monsters such as Orgalorg (and possibly Hunson too) are repeatedly shown to be massive cosmic threats throughout the whole series, to the point that even the Embodiment of Death in the setting is actually fearful of The Lich. Again, it's not actually headcanon, just reasonable assumptions.
 
The one about the Alien having likely been captured by the Guardians without a fight? I think that's really unlikely, considering that the Lich didn't actually react against them because his desire was to reach the Citadel, which is kind of a very specific case. The Alien having been actually overpowered by the Guardians isn't headcanon, it's just a reasonable, educated assumption, especially when you consider that all of the criminals imprisoned in the Citadel immediately tried to fight back and escape from the place, the Lich having been the sole exception.

My first point was that the planet shown cant be the size of earth, if the alien fits into the citadel.

Here

Someone without a bias should look at this one, since claiming that its no coincidence is not actual prove. This also wouldnt be the "imagination powers" anyways. (he didnt warp anything with his imagination). This would be a lot more like when he called for those buttelfies (the astral beast).

Now, I have to say that calling the scalling that makes The Lich and the Primordial Monster 5-B "headcanon" is really unfounded. The Lich and Primordial Monsters such as Orgalorg (and possibly Hunson too) are repeatedly shown to be massive cosmic threats throughout the whole series, to the point that even the Embodiment of Death in the setting is actually fearful of The Lich. Again, it's not actually headcanon, just reasonable assumptions.

Death has next to no showings since he doesnt have much screen time and if he does he plays the drums (he doesnt even have statements that would allow anyone to assume 5-B) Also did he claim the Lich was scary or that he is scared of the Lich? Cant quite remember that scene (was it the scene at Prismos?). Orgalorg has only vague statement and his title. Hanson doesnt have any showings even remotely close to 5-B and neither does the Lich. Besides, the thing that makes Hunson so scary is that you cant kill him and his soul sucking abilities and the Lich is scary due to his intentions aswell as his hax. But for the sake of argument, lets just assume they are very clearly 5-B. There would still be noone who scales to that.

Ps: I am not even sure where I said that the 5-B is headcanon. I do however remember saying that the 2-C rateing for anyone who has the power of the comet is headcanon, since we know jack sh*t about it and the quote that puts it there is not even exact/has a different meaning. I tried to refrain from useing the word "headcanon", however, if I used it, I probably had a reason. It probably was something along the lines of "Just being primordial monsters doesnt make tham scale, thats headcanon" or something like that. Also, this might be in one of the two books I have not read, but why is the Lich a primordial monster!? Didnt the Lich only come into existance with the comet?
 
My first point was that the planet shown cant be the size of earth, if the alien fits into the citadel.

This likely comes from how weird the perspective in the flashback showing the Alien cutting off tbe Planet is, kind of like how Mars appears really small in some scenes of Sons of Mars and such.

Someone without a bias should look at this one, since claiming that its no coincidence is not actual prove. This also wouldnt be the "imagination powers" anyways. (he didnt warp anything with his imagination). This would be a lot more like when he called for those buttelfies (the astral beast).

I mean, "fusing your intention with the Universe" is pretty clearly referencing the Cosmic Imagination mentioned in the books. Besides, even if you choose to disregard these scenes, the Imagination Powers would still be perfectly valid due to the reasons I gave.

Death has next to no showings since he doesnt have much screen time and if he does he plays the drums (he doesnt even have statements that would allow anyone to assume 5-B) Also did he claim the Lich was scary or that he is scared of the Lich? Cant quite remember that scene (was it the scene at Prismos?). Orgalorg has only vague statement and his title. Hanson doesnt have any showings even remotely close to 5-B and neither does the Lich. Besides, the thing that makes Hunson so scary is that you cant kill him and his soul sucking abilities and the Lich is scary due to his intentions aswell as his hax. But for the sake of argument, lets just assume they are very clearly 5-B. There would still be noone who scales to that.

I am going to address this later, since I am sort of busy right now, but I have to say that I do agree that the Catalyst Comet is way too vague to be assigned a proper rating, and so are the supposed Low 2-C statements relating to it.
 
This likely comes from how weird the perspective in the flashback showing the Alien cutting off tbe Planet is, kind of like how Mars appears really small in some scenes of Sons of Mars and such.

So do you agree or disagree? I cant quite tell. In any case I think we can agree that its weird either way.

I mean, "fusing your intention with the Universe" is pretty clearly referencing the Cosmic Imagination mentioned in the books. Besides, even if you choose to disregard these scenes, the Imagination Powers would still be perfectly valid due to the reasons I gave.

Just because the Enchiridion states how the cosmic imagination works, Finn would not necissarily get "imagination powers" (I might actually need to buy these books now, damn. thats like 35$ or so)

I am going to address this later, since I am sort of busy right now, but I have to say that I do agree that the Catalyst Comet is way too vague to be assigned a proper rating, and so are the supposed Low 2-C statements relating to it.

Common ground, YES! Take your time, I am quite busy IRL anyways.

Ps: This one seems just weird to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAHtdC4eDEw&feature=youtu.be&t=1m3s

FP and IK get send flying in opposite directions, but bove crash in the Ice Kingdom...

Also, I am fairly certain that that explosion can be calced and it would not be even close to moon level

Pps: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Environmental_Destruction I knew I remembered that corectly!
 
I don't consider myself too knowledgeale on Adventure Time, but honestly Tier 5 for Finn and others always seemed ridiculous to me. I agree with most/all of the OP's issues with the profiles in the blog; especially the scaling and feats.
 
Something tells me Finn being in Tier 7/6 range would probably be more fitting, but I haven't invested enough time in Adventure Time to give a viable stance.
 
So do you agree or disagree? I cant quite tell. In any case I think we can agree that its weird either way.

I disagree, I don't see why the Guardians of the Citadel wouldn't scale to the Nameless Alien, and there is really no reason for the Planet it cut apart to be so small aside from how weirdly the scene is drawn.

Just because the Enchiridion states how the cosmic imagination works, Finn would not necissarily get "imagination powers" (I might actually need to buy these books now, damn. thats like 35$ or so)

He would, because the explanations of how the cosmology works given by the Enchiridion actually fit with the Imagination Powers and how they were portrayed in the episode. They aren't really the one-off gag moment you are implying they are.

Anyways, about the 5-B scalling:

Orgalorg is quite explicitly said and shown to be an ancient cosmic entity which predated the Universe, Time and Nothingness itself, and his title as "The World-Breaker" has literally 0 reasons to be ignored and deemed as hyperbolic, given he is said to have actually terrorized the Solar System in the far past until Grob Gob Glob Grod overthrew him.

I honestly don't see a single good reason for him to be any weaker than a random Alien briefly shown in a flashback, or a Rainicorn / Mutated Dog Hybrid who can grow to be nearly as big as the Earth, or Warren Ampersand, who covered the entire surface of a (apparently small...?) planet with his shapeshifting abilities even when old and basically dying.

Pretty much the same thing with The Lich, who was also transforming the entire Lifeforce of the planet into his own power, so that's another potentially Tier 5 feat.

Enviromental Destruction also most likely doesn't apply here because all of the Ice King's elemental powers, including his control over the Weather, come from the same overall source (i.e the Crown). Weather Manipulation isn't some specific power of his that is unrelated to his primary magical abilities, it's just an extension of the powers given to him by the Crown.

Even though I am leaning towards agreeing with Tier 7 / 6 Finn being more consistent, and do think that the feat of the Ice Crown may need to be better evaluated, I'd also like to point out that "mOnN lEvElu feEN sEmEs rIdIKoLus" is an argument mainly rooted in incredulity and not at all valid in an actual discussion by default unless backed up by some concise reasoning. If we actually treat this logic as valid, then we may as well say that every feat above Tier 9 is an outlier and that Finn is just Street to Wall level at best.
 
I don't know what to say. I have no idea how I could have missed that. Afterall, assuming the size of pluto for this is even worse than the size used for Ooo. The size of that "rock" is maybe a couple of kilometers in diameter at best... I am also not sure if Jakes stretchy powers are a good way of measuring AP, but that's a different debate all together.
 
Well, the Planet appearing to be small most likely comes from the scene being weirdly drawn, just like with most scenes depicting Outer Space in the series, considering that there is a Mars-like planet that appears to have an actual atmosphere in the background, and it doesn't seem that far away from the one Jake is standing on and also seems to be of the same size, something which I don't think would be possible normally.

Normal-sized Jake also is visible from an Outer Space shot there. So, yeah, I don't think using that specific scene as a way of judging the Planet's size is a good idea.
 
https://youtu.be/w61Cc8_3nuo 3:04 you can see a Mars like planet in the background, very likely the same Mars in Adventure Time which is consistently showed to be planet sized so ether this planet is only barely bigger then Jake or Jake is continent/country sized without growing.

Basically this scene isn't to scale.
 
Maverick Zero X said:
Something tells me Finn being in Tier 7/6 range would probably be more fitting, but I haven't invested enough time in Adventure Time to give a viable stance.
Click to expand...
Finn was Low 7-B/7-B for the longest time, but he scales to people with Tier 5 feats, even if he has never displayed them himself. Even if the Tier 5 feats are disregarded, theirs still that High 6-A feat that Phoebe scales to, which Finn scales to.

As for Tier 2. A lot of villains near the end of the series have statements and feats like "damage all of reality", "destroy all of reality", "becoming one with the universe" (in a literal sense, by becoming one with space-time) which Finn scales to eventually, since he killed Orgalorg who absorbed the Catalyst Comet and consistently fought The Lich and other powerful entities in the later seasons. Even if we low ball it, they still scale off of Ice Kings High 6-A/5-C feats and Orgalorgs blatant Tier 5 feats/statements.

Yes. Tier 5 Finn is "weird", but it's actually consistent.
 
@Dark

I'd strongly reccomend adressing the OP's specific points on that matter. They go into a fair amount of detail about the issues with the scaling and the consistency itself; and while your comment did well to explain the current scaling, it didn't really do much to address anything the OP had to say about it.
 
It's addressing people considering Tier 6/5/2 Adventure Time to be an outlier. You can even argue that Low 2-C is a lowball since Bubblegum said that the essence of the Vampire King could destroy all of reality.

Ultima summed up most of what I think needs to be said, unless I'm missing anything. There are a few minor things though.

  • Destiny Gang was considered Street level because members were capable of effortlessly kicking down wooden doors and Finn fought them. Can't remember if he fought Big D or not, or just his subordinates.
  • Wizard Finn is admittedly tricky. His feat was calculated at 7-B (give or take) and Wizards weren't established as having planetary-to-cosmic tier magic yet, so I'm not actually sure what to do with that. Putting him at 7-B when your typical Wizard is probably 5-C (or at least High 6-A) isn't really right. I think removing the key is the best solution.
  • Base Betty might not be High 6-C/5-C. Bella Noche was considered a threat because she had anti-magic powers, not because she was necessarily very powerful (we never really see her do much). Bella Noche's only real feat was calculated at around Small Town level, so Base Betty would scale off that instead. Magic Woman (who is actually called Magic Ma'am apparently?) stays where she's at though.
As for the size of the planet Ampersand was on. Planets in Adventure Time were always weirdly drawn. Mars, despite being Mars was often depicted as being quite small, with their city being a considerable amount of its surface area, when the city itself was never depicted as being country sized when we actually see it. Using Pluto as an assumed low end is a fine enough lowball.

I mean no disrespect to the OP and I realize he put a lot of work into the blog, but I really do not have the time or energy to read through it all. A lot of the problems I see comes from the inconsistent, outdated and superfluous justifications for a lot of things so those should defiantly be changed soon.
 
As for the size of the planet Ampersand was on. Planets in Adventure Time were always weirdly drawn. Mars, despite being Mars was often depicted as being quite small, with their city being a considerable amount of its surface area, when the city itself was never depicted as being country sized when we actually see it. Using Pluto as an assumed low end is a fine enough lowball.

"Planets are really weirdly drawn and inconsistant, which is why its fine to use pixelmeasurements". Thats even more paradox than the depiction of plannets in adventure time. The most consistant, aswell as the size that makes the most sence should be taken. Thats one of my biggest issues with the size of Ooo.

In the video with Jake we have a decent depiction of the size of the rocket in comparison to Jake (2:24). The further he stretches the smaller he gets and the larger the rocket becomes implying foreshortening (2:26). In other words, he streched far, not large. The rock he is on is consistantly depicted as small and that from the very beginning, even up untill the episode where Finn saves him. His father would be dumb to choose a large planet/rock anyways, sinze he would not want to stretch up to the horizon of something like pluto in his state.

To sum up my biggest issues yet again: The biggest issues are scaleing with little to no reason; many outdated profiles; characters getting moon level, even though the referenced calcs are city level; characters getting scaled to characters, that dont even have the key; anyone scaleing from Orgalorg for not absorbing the comet and the wanked size of Ooo. To add to that: Finn does not scale to the Lich. The only times he defeated him was with a magical weapon from Prismo, aswell as exploiting a weakness of the Lich. When he was not able to do so he got utterly stomped to the point where it want even funny anymore. And this completly ignores the fact that the Lich does not even have a 2-C key, aswell as all the issue I talked about when it comes to the Lichs profile. Finn never won a "fair fight" against Fern either, so even if we assue that Orgalorg would get 2-C durabillity from not absorbing the comet (aswell as ignoring all those weird propperties the grass sword has), Finn would still not be 2-C.'
 
Again, every planet in the show has been depicted at various sizes. Assuming one assumption is more valid than another to get smaller results isn't valid.

Again, it's largely a problem with outdated descriptions and stuff.

Whats the problem with Ooo other than it's "wanked". It's scaled off the diameter of Earth. I admit my scaling wasn't perfect, as it was a weird shot, but it wouldn't affect affect te final product by to much. It's clearly a large continent, at least as big as places like Australia and made up a significant land area of Earth.
 
Darkanine said:
Again, every planet in the show has been depicted at various sizes. Assuming one assumption is more valid than another to get smaller results isn't valid.
Click to expand...
I'm not fully familiar with what's going on here, but when there's multiple equally valid assumptions we usually use the one with lower results to be safer. We only include higher results if they have a good justification over lower results, or they're included as a "possibly/likely".
 
Even then, we don't even use the Ampersand feat iirc. It's just support for the other Tier 6/5 feats.

Then what are the points? Because we only see Ooo in its full size once, and that's it.
 
1: We can actaully make out the Candy Kingdom, which is 1km in diameter at best, so this is just a bad depiction of Ooo.

2: The fact that they are capable of seeing the other kingdom from their window goes against it aswell, because of the earths curvature, you know.

3: We can see PB (as elemental) very clearly. We know her size in comparison to Finn and Jake

4: The treehouse lies more or less exactly between the Ice Kingdom and the Candy Kingdom. Finns tower, which went barely above the clouds (at best 80-100km) fell onto tha Candy Kingdom and far beyond it => at most 200km between the Candy Kingdom and the Ice Kingdom

5: Finn sleep WALKED way past the Ice Kingdom in a little over two days. 2*24h*7km/h=336km

6: BMO walked a distance comparable to the distance between the Ice Kingdom and the treehouse in roughly 24h, while slowly dragging a baby and while unsure about the direction and the best way to take.
 
"Destiny Gang was considered Street level because members were capable of effortlessly kicking down wooden doors and Finn fought them. Can't remember if he fought Big D or not, or just his subordinates."

Big D is the leader right? Finn challenged him but was pretty easily knocked down by the him.
 
Can you please stop with the attitude. It's not making this thread any easier for anyone.

Most of your arguments are wanting a cartoon for children to have uberscientific and mathematically plausible shots whenever possible, which just isn't happening. Landmarks are constantly ballooned in size so we can better see them. What would the point of seeing a landscape of Ooo from space, if we can't make out any of the landmarks? It's just bad art direction.

The two(?) times we see Ooo, it's both times been depicted as being a small continent. If we used your figures for the size of Ooo, then it wouldn't be large enough to handle the amount of forests, cities, minor kingdoms, valleys, mountains, bodies of water and other landmarks that exists within it. Everything, outside of a few gags and vague stuff (some of which is your opinion to boot) points to Ooo being pretty big, not extremely small.

Finn walked across Ooo twice, yes. He also dodged electricity and fought guys who can fly across solar systems. He's a fast guy. Characters walking across vast landscapes like this is more akin to writers unwilling to do the math with the stuff they create, and for good reason. Finn only walking across a few kilometers of Ooo is not only not a funny gag, but it's not interesting. Same goes with BMO, but I'm pretty sure they never specify

And before anyone brings it up. The WoG statement from Ward saying Ooo is a small island is obviously inconsistent. Ooo being a small island nation (presumably comparable to something like Timor or even Jamaica) wouldn't make it big enough for everything it has. And again, the visual representation of Ooo is more valid then your points.
 
And @Andy. You posted while I was still typing this but yeah, Big D was the leader and he kind of smacked around Finny. I'd probably just get rid of Farmworld Finn's stats with the exception of Ice Prince (which should be its own page IMO).
 
@Dark Understood

And about the sizes. I am not sure what exactly is going on but if it's a matter of the planets turning out to small due to scaling, that kind of stuff might not be very reliable. Artists cannot be expected to get the scale completely right even with with something as large as a city, let alone a planet so in these cases pixel scaling might not be very trustworthy. Or rather it shouldn't be taken as an accurate representation of size unless the planet is actually implied to be very different in stature than normal.

I'm talking more about a general thing to be clear, I'm not making a comment on what Adventure Time's case is since I don't know.
 
And before anyone brings it up. The WoG statement from Ward saying Ooo is a small island is obviously inconsistent. Ooo being a small island nation (presumably comparable to something like Timor or even Jamaica) wouldn't make it big enough for everything it has. And again, the visual representation of Ooo is more valid then your points.

As someone who comes from Europe, a place where everything is way smaller than in the US, YES it would be large enough. Heck, it would be way too large if we were to assume anything above 500km in diameter for Ooo. (I never said its as large as Jamaica, I said its not even close to what you guys make it out to be.)

Most of your arguments are wanting a cartoon for children to have uberscientific and mathematically plausible shots whenever possible, which just isn't happening. Landmarks are constantly ballooned in size so we can better see them. What would the point of seeing a landscape of Ooo from space, if we can't make out any of the landmarks? It's just bad art direction.

Thats a MASSIVE double standart. I am saying we should go by consistancy, which implies a couple hundred killometers in diameter and maybe 20-50km between the Ice Kingdom and the Candy Kingdom. You are saying "its inconosistant and weird, but screw it anyways!". Landmarks are also not consistantly ballooned in size. The distances between kingdoms is fairly consistant during the enirety of the show, unless we include that one picture where we can see the earths curvature. Also, Farmworld Finn knocked down a door by himself, so yeah, street level is fine.
 
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