Testarossa002
Username Only- 1,761
- 1,877
Continued from here
Downgrade thread here
Things to point out before going fully into the thread
1. This thread doesn't include speed scaling
2. While the OP of the original downgrade had the right idea, trying to revise the AP, LS and Speed of 20+ characters in a single thread was not going to end well. That section of the verse was pratically in a limbo when the thread ended.
3. I have all read the greco-roman RR novels at least twice. I'd appreciate if I don't get dismissive disagreements to the thread. Just view it as someone dropping an alternative interpretation to what you read.
4. There's going to be large walls of text. I don't think a lot of people have read the series so my evidences are including contexts so as not to appear jarring
Since that's out of the way, let's get into the meat for today
5. Please refrain from discussing about other species scaling (Demigods, Titans, Monsters and Giants). I wasn't planning on revising them in this series but I'll make sure to tackle it in the next section
That's all for this section ig
I don't think I have the capacity to redo this thread again, most especially the tier 4
Unless I read TSATS and TCotG and find something new
VOTES
Downgrade thread here
Things to point out before going fully into the thread
1. This thread doesn't include speed scaling
2. While the OP of the original downgrade had the right idea, trying to revise the AP, LS and Speed of 20+ characters in a single thread was not going to end well. That section of the verse was pratically in a limbo when the thread ended.
3. I have all read the greco-roman RR novels at least twice. I'd appreciate if I don't get dismissive disagreements to the thread. Just view it as someone dropping an alternative interpretation to what you read.
4. There's going to be large walls of text. I don't think a lot of people have read the series so my evidences are including contexts so as not to appear jarring
Since that's out of the way, let's get into the meat for today
5. Please refrain from discussing about other species scaling (Demigods, Titans, Monsters and Giants). I wasn't planning on revising them in this series but I'll make sure to tackle it in the next section
I'm not going to engage allat about these but just to fulfill all righteousness
Feats:
A fight among the Gods was stated capable of destroying the universe
Hera's breast milk created the milky way
Yeah yeah
It's not real cosmic stuffs
Just a mirage in our atmosphere
While I'm not going to actively argue for this, I'll elaborate more on the debunks in the next section
Feats:
A fight among the Gods was stated capable of destroying the universe
~Percy Jackson's Greek Gods: Persephone Marries her StalkerI never understood what made Persephone such a big deal. I mean, for a girl who almost destroyed the universe, she seems kind of meh.
Sure, she was pretty. She had her mother’s long blond hair and Zeus’s sky blue eyes. She didn’t have a care in the world. She was sure the whole world had been invented just for her pleasure. I guess when your parents are both gods, you can come to believe that.
Hera's breast milk created the milky way
~Percy Jackson's Greek Heroes: Hercules Does Twelve Stupid ThingsHera!’
It was the first time she’d said Hera’s name in the baby’s presence. Hercules bit down hard on Hera’s sensitive flesh, screamed ‘RARR!’ and pooped, all at the same time, causing Hera to scream and hurl the kid.
Fortunately, Athena was a good catch.
Some legends say that Hera’s breast milk sprayed across the sky and created the Milky Way. I don’t know. That seems like a whole lot of solar systems from just one squirt. What is for sure: those few sips of the good stuff instilled Hercules with divine strength and health, compliments of the goddess who hated him the most
Yeah yeah
It's not real cosmic stuffs
Just a mirage in our atmosphere
While I'm not going to actively argue for this, I'll elaborate more on the debunks in the next section
Feat: Artemis creates a constellation at mftl+ speed
Here's where shit's gonna go down
Debunk 1: Like in the Greek Gods novel, Greeks believed that the stars are just hung in the sky. So it's obviously not the same as real life scientific stars.
Right for the most part but let's go back and see some explanations about the Gods
Divine/Monster stuffs are born out of loads of people believing in the same thing, effectively warping reality
I can agree with the fact that Zeus and co weren't creating real stars because the ancient Greeks did not believe in them that way. However, that can't apply to modern times.
For the most part (excluding flat earthners), humans now believe the that the stars are bajillion times bigger than the earth and bajillion light years away like you know, real stars. Hence, why
it's literally impossible for Artemis to manifest anything other than tier a 4 constellation.
You can raise the argument that "But this modern humans don't worship the gods nor believe in them. So it's not possible for them to influence the way gods create stuffs" but that's not necessarily true
Here's an excerpt from the first few chapters of the franchise
People remember and reference the gods across every civilization
Granting them relevance
It's self evident because, well, they haven't faded yet. At least not all of them
Debunk 2: It's just an illusion. No stars were created or shown
Yeah….no
The Huntress has been shown to exist beyond the moment of the feat as at end of The Titan's Curse
Actually seen in the sky as part of the other "real stars"
Debunk 3: Even though the stars were real, she only brightened the stars not create them from scratch
This would be fine and all if this part didn't exist from Son of Neptune
So no. She did create stars
Even if she did-.....more of that in the next tier
Debunk 4: Apollo's Sun Chariot. No explanation needed. That's a blatant contradiction
That's actually a very good point. But let's examine the evidence again.
This was interpreted to mean that Apollo's Sun Chariot ≠ The one some 90 million km away from us. Which is pretty valid
Then there's also this
Used to prove that Apollo's control over the "Sun" is not equal to the aforementioned science Sun
This is quite tricky tbh but let's get into it
I'll like to provide another interpretation to the evidences provided
Each of the belief systems (including science) have control of the sun in a way
Pointing this out from the last scan
Many different belief systems powered the revolution of the planets and stars.
Apollo never said that the Supernatural doesn't apply to stars and planets. In fact, his statement implies the opposite as they power the revolution i.e the movement of the stars and planets
Not that the Supernatural is only manipulating what humans perceive them to be.
To add to this, Chiron also says this:
This is further shown in the Kane Chronicles (multiple times too) when Ra's destruction would result in the destruction of the real sun
"How come this doesn't apply to Apollo? He was stripped of his powers and nothing happened to the sun."
Two things
1. Apollo, although weakened, still had some of his godly essense left in him
2. Apollo also, while being the sun god doesn't have as much influence on it. As he has an array of sphere of influences (music, poetry, archery, oracles, healing) unlike his predecessor Helios. The Sun and Apollo are not interwoven the same way Ra or Helios are with it. The Sun getting destroyed won't automatically destroy Apollo. Vice versa
This also applies to his twin (Artemis/Diana) as she's also not a one trick pony unlike Selene with the moon
Debunk 5: This is just an outlier, nothing else in the present times imply that the gods can do something on this scale
To start with, the gods do not appear to make any sort of effort when performing their feats.
They just…..do it
Nothing implies Poseidon flipping islands like skillets to be a cap on his strength
Nor Demeter nuking mountains
The only time the gods were pushed to their limits was again Typhon. Who was eventually sealed under a mountain. Apart from the facts that immortals don't do well when imprisoned
(Hera, Atlas, Zeus, Artemis, Ares. ****, one could mention instances with the fingers on both hands), the mountain didn't just spawn on him. Zeus acted on the mountain. It's not just class T weights that subdued Typhon, it's Class T + Zeus's strength
As an addendum, Apollo implied twice that he could create constellations if he had full access to his powers
There's also this
You know how I said I could agree with the ancient Greek creation debunk?
Well……..
Warning: This is quite long. Like half a chapter
It's the PoV of a satry from the modern times
I'm not particularly hung up on this side of my argument. Just felt the need to drop this here
That should be all from me from this section
Summary: The Olympians get bumped into tier 4
Don't know the exact values but yeah
~The Titan's Curse: Chapter 18Artemis stood, said a kind of blessing, breathed into her cupped hand and released the silver dust to the sky. It flew up, sparkling, and vanished.
For a moment, I didn’t see anything different. Then Annabeth gasped. Looking up in the sky, I saw that the stars were brighter now. They made a pattern I had never noticed before – a gleaming constellation that looked a lot like a girl’s figure – a girl with a bow, running across the sky.
‘Let the world honour you, my huntress,’ Artemis said. ‘Live forever in the stars
Here's where shit's gonna go down
Debunk 1: Like in the Greek Gods novel, Greeks believed that the stars are just hung in the sky. So it's obviously not the same as real life scientific stars.
Right for the most part but let's go back and see some explanations about the Gods
Divine/Monster stuffs are born out of loads of people believing in the same thing, effectively warping reality
~The Tyrant's Tomb: Chapter 28“That’s exactly what the Greeks thought. The gesture had nothing to do with shh. It symbolized the hieroglyph for child.
Nevertheless, the Greeks decided he must be the god of silence and secrets. They changed his name to Harpocrates. They built some shrines, started worshiping him, and boom, he’s a Greek-Egyptian hybrid god.”
Meg snorted. “It can’t be that easy to make a new god.”
“Never underestimate the power of thousands of human minds all believing the same thing. They can remake reality. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not.”
I can agree with the fact that Zeus and co weren't creating real stars because the ancient Greeks did not believe in them that way. However, that can't apply to modern times.
For the most part (excluding flat earthners), humans now believe the that the stars are bajillion times bigger than the earth and bajillion light years away like you know, real stars. Hence, why
it's literally impossible for Artemis to manifest anything other than tier a 4 constellation.
You can raise the argument that "But this modern humans don't worship the gods nor believe in them. So it's not possible for them to influence the way gods create stuffs" but that's not necessarily true
Here's an excerpt from the first few chapters of the franchise
~The Lightning Thief: Chapter 5Come now, Percy. What you call “Western civilization”. Do you think it’s just an abstract concept? No, it’s a living force. A collective consciousness that has burned bright for thousands of years. The gods are part of it. You might even say they are the source of it, or at least, they are tied so tightly to it that they couldn’t possibly fade, not unless all of Western civilization were obliterated.
The fire started in Greece. Then, as you well know – or as I hope you know, since you passed my course – the heart of the fire moved to Rome, and so did the gods. Oh, different names, perhaps – Jupiter for Zeus, Venus for Aphrodite, and so on – but the same forces, the same gods.’ ‘And then they died.’ ‘Died? No. Did the West die? The gods simply moved, to Germany, to France, to Spain, for a while. Wherever the flame was brightest, the gods were there. They spent several centuries in England. All you need to do is look at the architecture. People do not forget the gods. Every place they’ve ruled, for the last three thousand years, you can see them in paintings, in statues, on the most important buildings. And yes, Percy, of course they are now in your United States. Look at your symbol, the eagle of Zeus. Look at the statue of Prometheus in Rockefeller Center, the Greek facades of your government buildings in Washington. I defy you to find any American city where the Olympians are not prominently displayed in multiple places. Like it or not – and believe me, plenty of people weren’t very fond of Rome, either – America is now the heart of the flame. It is the great power of the West. And so Olympus is here. And we are here.’
People remember and reference the gods across every civilization
Granting them relevance
It's self evident because, well, they haven't faded yet. At least not all of them
Debunk 2: It's just an illusion. No stars were created or shown
Yeah….no
The Huntress has been shown to exist beyond the moment of the feat as at end of The Titan's Curse
~The Titan's Curse: Chapter 19Twelve enormous thrones made a U round a central hearth, just like the placement of the cabins at camp. The ceiling above glittered with constellations – even the newest one, Zoë the Huntress, making her way across the heavens with her bow drawn.
~The Battle of The Labyrinth: Chapter 12The next time I awoke it was night, but I wasn’t sure if it was the same night or many nights later. I was in the bed in the cave, but I rose and wrapped a robe around myself and padded outside. The stars were brilliant – thousands of them, like you only see way out in the country. I could make out all the constellations Annabeth had taught me: Capricorn, Pegasus, Sagittarius. And there, near the southern horizon, was a new constellation: the Huntress, a tribute to a friend
of ours who had died last winter.
Actually seen in the sky as part of the other "real stars"
Debunk 3: Even though the stars were real, she only brightened the stars not create them from scratch
This would be fine and all if this part didn't exist from Son of Neptune
~The Son of Neptune: Chapter 25His dreams were as disjointed and scary as ever.
He imagined himself on Mount Tamalpais, north of San Francisco, fighting at the old Titan stronghold. That didn’t make sense. He hadn’t been with the Romans when they had attacked, but he saw it all clearly: a Titan in armor, Annabet hand two other girls fighting at Percy’s side. One of the girls died in the battle. Percy knelt over her, watching as she dissolved into stars.
Then he saw the giant warship in its dry dock. The bronze dragon figurehead glinted in the morning light. The riggings and armaments were complete, but something was wrong.
A hatch in the deck was open, and smoke poured from some kind of engine. A boy with curly black hair was cursing as he pounded the engine with a wrench. Two other demigods squatted next to him, watching with concern. One was a teenage guy with short blond hair.
The other was a girl with long dark hair.
So no. She did create stars
Even if she did-.....more of that in the next tier
Debunk 4: Apollo's Sun Chariot. No explanation needed. That's a blatant contradiction
That's actually a very good point. But let's examine the evidence again.
~The Titan's Curse: Chapter 4Downsizing,’ Apollo said. ‘The Romans started it. They couldn’t afford all those temple sacrifices, so they laid off Helios and Selene and folded their duties into our job descriptions. My sis got the moon. I got the sun. It was pretty annoying at first, but at least I got this cool car.’ ‘But how does it work?’ Nico asked. ‘I thought the sun was a big fiery ball of gas!’ Apollo chuckled and ruffled Nico’s hair. ‘That rumour probably got started because Artemis used to call me a big fiery ball of gas. Seriously, kid, it depends on whether you’re talking astronomy or philosophy. You want to talk astronomy? Bah, what fun is that? You want to talk about how humans think about the sun? Ah, now that’s more interesting. They’ve got a lot riding on the sun… er, so to speak. It keeps them warm, grows their crops, powers engines, makes everything look, well, sunnier.
This chariot is built out of human dreams about the sun, kid. It’s as old as Western Civilization. Every day, it drives across the sky from east to west, lighting up all those puny little mortal lives. The chariot is a manifestation of the sun’s power, the way mortals perceive it. Make sense?’
This was interpreted to mean that Apollo's Sun Chariot ≠ The one some 90 million km away from us. Which is pretty valid
Then there's also this
~The Hidden Oracle: Chapter 16Of course, even without my help, other forces would keep the cosmos chugging along. Many different belief systems powered the revolution of the planets and stars. Wolves would still chase Sol across the sky. Ra would continue his daily journey in his sun barque. Tonatiuh would keep running on his surplus blood from human sacrifices back in the Aztec days. And that other thing—science— would still generate gravity and quantum physics and whatever.
Used to prove that Apollo's control over the "Sun" is not equal to the aforementioned science Sun
This is quite tricky tbh but let's get into it
I'll like to provide another interpretation to the evidences provided
Each of the belief systems (including science) have control of the sun in a way
Pointing this out from the last scan
Many different belief systems powered the revolution of the planets and stars.
Apollo never said that the Supernatural doesn't apply to stars and planets. In fact, his statement implies the opposite as they power the revolution i.e the movement of the stars and planets
Not that the Supernatural is only manipulating what humans perceive them to be.
To add to this, Chiron also says this:
~The Lightning Thief: Chapter 5Metaphysical? But you were just talking about –’ ‘Ah, gods, plural, as in, great beings that control the forces of nature and human endeavours: the immortal gods of Olympus. That’s a
smaller matter.’ ‘Smaller!’ ‘Yes, quite. The gods we discussed in Latin class.’ ‘Zeus,’ I said. ‘Hera. Apollo. You mean them.’ And there it was again – distant thunder on a cloudless day.
‘Young man,’ said Mr D. ‘I would really be less casual about throwing those names around, if I were you.’ ‘But they’re stories,’ I said. ‘They’re – myths, to explain lightning and the seasons and stuff.
They’re what people believed before there was science.’ ‘Science!’ Mr D scoffed. ‘And tell me, Perseus Jackson –’ I flinched when he said my real name, which I never told anybody.
‘– what will people think of your “science” two thousand years from now?’ Mr D continued.
‘Hmm? They will call it primitive mumbo jumbo. That’s what. Oh, I love mortals – they have absolutely no sense of perspective. They think they’ve come so˜o˜o far. And have they, Chiron? Look at this boy and tell me.’ I wasn’t liking Mr D much, but there was something about the way he called me mortal, as if… he wasn’t. It was enough to put a lump in my throat, to suggest why Grover was dutifully minding his cards, chewing his soda can, and keeping his mouth shut.
This is further shown in the Kane Chronicles (multiple times too) when Ra's destruction would result in the destruction of the real sun
~The Throne of Fire: Chapter 21Maybe that had been his plan all along. He’d let us wake Ra only partially so the sun god remained old and feeble. Then Menshikov would leave us trapped in the Duat while he used whatever evil magic he’d planned to free Apophis. When the dawn came, there would be no sunrise, no return of Ra. Instead Apophis would rise and destroy civilization. Our friends would have fought all night at Brooklyn House for nothing. Twenty-four hours from now, when we finally managed to leave the Duat, we’d find the world a dark, frozen wasteland, ruled by Chaos. Everything we cared about would be gone. Then Apophis could swallow Ra and complete his victory.
~The Serpent's Shadow: Chapter 2A different statue came to life—a gilded wooden pharaoh with a hunting spear. Its eyes turned the color of blood. Its carved mouth twisted into a smile. “Your magic is weak, Sadie Kane. Human civilization has grown as old and rotten. I will swallow the sun god and plunge your world into darkness. The Sea of Chaos will consume you all.”
~The Red Pyramid: Chapter 27“But that’s a legend,” Carter said. “The earth revolves around the sun. The sun never actually descends under the earth.”
“Have you learned nothing of Egypt?” Bast asked. “Conflicting stories can be equally true. The sun is a ball of fire in space, yes. But its image you see as it crosses the sky, the life-giving warmth and light it brings to the earth—that was embodied by Ra. The sun was his throne, his source of power, his very spirit. But now Ra has retreated into the heavens. He sleeps, and the sun is just the sun. Ra’s boat no longer travels on its cycle through the Duat. He no longer lights the dark, and the dead feel his absence most keenly.”
“Indeed,” Bloodstained Blade said, though he didn’t sound very upset about it. “Legend says the world will end when Ra gets too tired to continue living in his weakened state. Apophis will swallow the sun. Darkness will reign. Chaos will overcome Ma’at, and the Serpent will reign forever.”
Part of me thought this was absurd. The planets would not simply stop spinning. The sun would not cease to rise.
"How come this doesn't apply to Apollo? He was stripped of his powers and nothing happened to the sun."
Two things
1. Apollo, although weakened, still had some of his godly essense left in him
~The Burning Maze: Chapter 16‘Replace!’ Medea said, then began counting on her fingers as if giving cooking tips on daytime television. ‘First, I extract every bit of Apollo’s immortal essence – which isn’t much at the moment, so that won’t take long.
Then I’ll add his essence to what I already have cooking, the leftover power of my dearly departed grandfather.’
2. Apollo also, while being the sun god doesn't have as much influence on it. As he has an array of sphere of influences (music, poetry, archery, oracles, healing) unlike his predecessor Helios. The Sun and Apollo are not interwoven the same way Ra or Helios are with it. The Sun getting destroyed won't automatically destroy Apollo. Vice versa
~The Burning Maze: Chapter 18Humans began to look at me – brilliant, golden and shining – and associate me with the sun. Can you blame them?
I never asked for the honour. One morning I simply woke up and found myself the master of the sun chariot, along with all my other duties. Helios faded to a dim echo, a whisper from the depths of Tartarus.
Now, thanks to his evil sorceress granddaughter, he was back. Sort of.
A white-hot maelstrom roared around Medea. I felt Helios’s anger, his scorching temper that used to scare the daylights out of me. (Ew, bad pun.
Sorry.) Helios had never been a god of all trades. He was not like me, with many talents and interests. He did one thing with dedication and piercing focus: he drove the sun. Now, I could feel how bitter he was, knowing that his role had been assumed by me, a mere dabbler in solar matters, a weekend sun-chariot driver. For Medea, gathering his power from Tartarus had not been difficult. She had simply called on his resentment, his desire for revenge. Helios was burning to destroy me, the god who had eclipsed him. (Ew, there’s another one.)
In fact, he did imply that he doesn't take the sun gig as seriously as he should
This also applies to his twin (Artemis/Diana) as she's also not a one trick pony unlike Selene with the moon
Debunk 5: This is just an outlier, nothing else in the present times imply that the gods can do something on this scale
To start with, the gods do not appear to make any sort of effort when performing their feats.
They just…..do it
Nothing implies Poseidon flipping islands like skillets to be a cap on his strength
Nor Demeter nuking mountains
The only time the gods were pushed to their limits was again Typhon. Who was eventually sealed under a mountain. Apart from the facts that immortals don't do well when imprisoned
(Hera, Atlas, Zeus, Artemis, Ares. ****, one could mention instances with the fingers on both hands), the mountain didn't just spawn on him. Zeus acted on the mountain. It's not just class T weights that subdued Typhon, it's Class T + Zeus's strength
As an addendum, Apollo implied twice that he could create constellations if he had full access to his powers
~The Hidden Oracle: Chapter 17AT LEAST WE DID NOT LAND IN PERU.
My feet hit stone, jarring my ankles. We stumbled against a wall, but Meg provided me with a convenient cushion.
We found ourselves in a dark tunnel braced with oaken beams. The hole we’d fallen through was gone, replaced by an earthen ceiling. I saw no sign of the other teams, but from somewhere above I could vaguely hear Harley chanting, “Go! Go! Go!”
“When I get my powers back,” I said, “I will turn Harley into a constellation called the Ankle Biter. At least constellations are silent.”
Meg pointed down the corridor. “Look.”
As my eyes adjusted, I realized the tunnel’s dim light emanated from a glowing piece of fruit about thirty meters away.
~The Dark Prophecy: Chapter 7“It’s much better for you,” Emmie chided. “You’re not immortal anymore, and you need to take care of yourself.”
“But cheeseburgers,” Jo muttered.
Leo plunked the cheese wheel in front of me. “Cut me a wedge of this, my good man. Chop-chop!”
I scowled at him. “Don’t test me, V aldez. When I am a god again, I will make a constellation out of you. I will call it the Small Exploding Latino.”
“I like it!” He patted my shoulder, causing my knife to jiggle.
Did no one fear the wrath of the gods anymore?
There's also this
You know how I said I could agree with the ancient Greek creation debunk?
Well……..
Warning: This is quite long. Like half a chapter
It's the PoV of a satry from the modern times
~Camp Half-Blood Chronicles, Section 7, Part 1I appreciated this sage advice but decided to seek my own technique for survival training. So I did what I often do when contemplating a challenge: I looked to the stars for guidance. That’s when it hit me—I could teach demigods to look to the stars for guidance!
Constellations are awesome orientation and navigation tools. They have great historic significance, too, since they’re made up of beings and people placed in the heavens by the Greek gods. So it was a win-win concept.
Here’s a little taste of my proposed lesson plan:
WHATEVER, MOTHER (OR THE W-M-SHAPED CONSTELLATION)
Cassiopeia, queen of Ethiopia, bragged that she and her daughter, Andromeda, were more beautiful than Poseidon’s girls, the Nereids.
“Gods, Mother, embarrass me much?” groaned Andromeda.
The Nereids complained to their dad. As punishment for Cassiopeia’s boast, Poseidon sent Cetus the sea monster to wreak havoc on Ethiopia. The only way to end the reign of terror was to sacrifice Andromeda to the beast.
Naturally, Cassiopeia didn’t tell her daughter that. Instead, she lured Andromeda to the coast with promises of a lovely spa day by the sea. Once there, she chained her to a rock within easy snacking distance of Cetus.
“Mo-ther!” Andromeda was heard to complain over the pounding of the waves. “These chains clash with my outfit! The salt spray is making my hair frizz! And when is my masseuse getting here?”
“Here he comes now!” Cassiopeia called back as Cetus reared out of the surf and charged the princess. (Note: Grover would have identified Cetus as an “immediate threat.”)
Seconds before the monster struck, a figure swooped out of the sky. It was the hero Perseus! He drew his sword of diamonds (“Ooo! Shiny!” Andromeda was heard to say over Cetus’s snarls), slew the beast, freed Andromeda, controlled her frizz with smoothing serum, and married her. They had nine children, founded the city of Mycenae, and lived happily ever after.
When they died, Perseus and Andromeda were turned into constellations. They’re so dim, though, that they can be hard to find. Instead, look for Cassiopeia, who was also set in the stars. As pushy in the heavens as she was on Earth, you can’t miss her pattern: five bright stars that form a W or M shape, depending on how you look at it. Find it, and you’re on the right track to getting home.
FYI: Mother and daughter constellations are very close to each other. So close, in fact, that if you listen in on a moonless night, you can hear Andromeda telling Cassiopeia to “back off and give her some space already.”
BEAR WITH ME
Zeus was sneaking around behind Hera’s back—again—with a lovely female named Callisto, who happened to be one of Artemis’s Hunters. Why Callisto broke her vow to stay away from men is anyone’s guess. Some say Zeus tricked her by disguising himself as Artemis.
Hera found out about Zeus’s infidelity—again—and with one angry poof turned Callisto into a
bear, which she then asked Artemis to hunt. Or maybe she asked Arcas, who was Zeus and Callisto’s son and a skilled archer. The details are a little murky. Either way, Callisto the bear was staring down the pointy end of a drawn arrow when Zeus finally took notice.
“Hmm. This may be partially my fault,” Zeus confessed as he defused the threat. Callisto reared up on her hind legs, crossed her paws over her hairy chest, and gave him the bear version of “You think?”
“Let me make it up to you.” He transformed her into stars and lobbed them into the sky. He did the same for Arcas, figuring the boy would be safe from Hera that way. The stars formed patterns that looked like bears, which is why the Greeks named them the Big Dipper and the Little Dipper.
Ha-ha! Just kidding! The Greeks called them Ursa Major and Ursa Minor, or the Great Bear and the Little Bear. Ursa Major looks like a—well, like a big water dipper, actually, with a bent handle and a wide-mouthed bowl. Ursa Minor is a smaller version of a dipper with a handle that bends up instead of down.
FYI: Rumor has it that Zeus and Callisto secretly hang out when he’s in his Roman form. He hides in the planet Jupiter—or maybe he becomes the planet Jupiter—and she revolves around him in the nearby moon named after her. Watch for a supernova in that quadrant of the sky when Hera discovers their trysts.
LOOK TO THE STARS FOR GUIDANCE
So, how do these stories help if you’re lost? If you can pick out Ursa Major, Ursa Minor, and Cassiopeia in the night sky, you can find north. The three constellations are bunched up around Polaris, the one fixed star in the sky. Find the constellations, and you can find Polaris. Find Polaris, and you’ve found north. Find north, and you can figure out where east, west, and south
are. And then you’re as good as home!
Note: When I shared my lesson plan with Grover, he pointed out that this method of navigation only works if you know in which direction your home lies. Also, it has proven to be less effective during daylight hours. Oh, well. It’s a start.
I'm not particularly hung up on this side of my argument. Just felt the need to drop this here
That should be all from me from this section
Summary: The Olympians get bumped into tier 4
Don't know the exact values but yeah
Feat 1: Flashback to one of the debunks to the tier 4 feat
It being that Artemis simply brightened up already existing stars. I don't necessarily agree with that interpretation but brightening up a constellation is a tier 5 feat. It could get recalced to get an exact value. Given how the luminosity was sustained for at least 2 years, it could get much higher
As usual, every Olympian scales
Feat 2: Supernovas
There are multiple statements of supernova attributed to the gods when they show their true form
Such as this
And this
And this
I would not subscribe to interpret them going actual supernova but here's an alternative interpretation
We already know that the major attribute of the Gods true form is the light they emit which is deadly to nearly everything in the verse
I'd prefer to interpret the statement as the gods glowing as bright as supernovas
Rather than actual supernovas
And we actually see it get mentioned in The Last Olympian
"B-but hyperbole"
Well yeah, the Zeus's own uses like which would imply hyperbole but that's besides the point
Author intent also matter here.
RR has implied on more than one occasion that the God's true form has something to do with supernova
It's not just a one off statement
The God's true form is also something that's treated in canon to be something extremely deadly and forbidden
It's not that much of a stretch tbh
I asked what would be the potential yield of luminosity for the statement and the answer was in Yottatons (5-A) at the very least
Mind you, this is as a result of them just existing at their full power
It being that Artemis simply brightened up already existing stars. I don't necessarily agree with that interpretation but brightening up a constellation is a tier 5 feat. It could get recalced to get an exact value. Given how the luminosity was sustained for at least 2 years, it could get much higher
As usual, every Olympian scales
Feat 2: Supernovas
There are multiple statements of supernova attributed to the gods when they show their true form
Such as this
~The Lost Hero: Chapter 50Around the courtyard, monsters began to panic and retreat, but there was no escape for them.
Hera glowed brighter. She shouted, “Cover your eyes, my heroes!”
But Jason was too much in shock. He understood too late.
He watched as Hera turned into a supernova, exploding in a ring of force that vaporized every monster instantly. Jason fell, light searing into his mind, and his last thought was that his body was burning.
And this
~Percy Jackson's Greek Gods: Hera Gets A Little CuckooZeus’s mortal disguise burned away. He appeared in all his glory as a swirling pillar of fire and lightning, like a supernova, in Semele’s living room. The furniture went up in flames. The door blew off its hinges. The window shutters exploded.
And this
~Camp Half-Blood Chronicles, Section 7, Part 1FYI: Rumor has it that Zeus and Callisto secretly hang out when he’s in his Roman form. He hides in the planet Jupiter—or maybe he becomes the planet Jupiter—and she revolves around him in the nearby moon named after her. Watch for a supernova in that quadrant of the sky when Hera discovers their trysts.
I would not subscribe to interpret them going actual supernova but here's an alternative interpretation
We already know that the major attribute of the Gods true form is the light they emit which is deadly to nearly everything in the verse
I'd prefer to interpret the statement as the gods glowing as bright as supernovas
Rather than actual supernovas
And we actually see it get mentioned in The Last Olympian
~The Last Olympian: Chapter 9Hermes glared at me and my voice faltered. The look on his face wasn’t really anger, though. It was pain. Deep, incredible pain.
‘I will leave you now,’ he said tightly. ‘I have a war to fight.’ He began to shine. I turned away and made sure Annabeth did the same, because she was still frozen in shock.
Good luck, Percy, Martha the snake whispered.
Hermes glowed with the light of a supernova. Then he was gone.
"B-but hyperbole"
Well yeah, the Zeus's own uses like which would imply hyperbole but that's besides the point
Author intent also matter here.
RR has implied on more than one occasion that the God's true form has something to do with supernova
It's not just a one off statement
The God's true form is also something that's treated in canon to be something extremely deadly and forbidden
It's not that much of a stretch tbh
I asked what would be the potential yield of luminosity for the statement and the answer was in Yottatons (5-A) at the very least
Mind you, this is as a result of them just existing at their full power
Feat: Zeus (and Poseidon) flood the planet
According to this, it's easily 6-A
It doesn't really matter if Poseidon helped in the feat (Zeus was going to do it eitherways), it's still going to be 6-A
As usual, all Olympians Sca-
"Hold on a sec
Unlike the tier 3, 4 and 5, this 6-A feat was done by one of the Big 3
Why would Dionysus or Hermes scale to this feat"
Apart from the fact that the lesser Olympians have been accepted to scale to the major ones in this thread (credits to @The_Fiend), the feat was once again a very off handed one. Not something Zeus busted his ass doing or something he achieved with his divine weapon
~Percy Jackson's Greek Gods: Zeus Kills EveryoneNo one has invented bug bombs yet,” Hera pointed out.
“Oh, right.” Zeus frowned. “Then a flood. I’ll open the skies and unleash torrents of rain until all the humans drown!”
Poseidon grunted. “Floods are my department.”
“You can help,” Zeus offered.
“But without humans,” Hestia asked from the hearth, “who will worship you, my lord? Who will build your temples and burn your sacrifices?”
“We’ll think of something,” Zeus said. “This isn’t the first race of humans, after all. We can always make more.”
According to the old stories, this was technically true. The humans back in Kronos’s time had been called the golden race. Supposedly they’d all died out and been replaced by the silver race. The ones in the early days of Mount Olympus were called the bronze race. What made those humans different from us? There are a lot of stories, but the main thing was: they died off, and we haven’t… yet.
“Besides,” Zeus continued, “a flood is good. We need to give the earth a proper power-washing once in a while to get all the grime off the sidewalks.”
According to this, it's easily 6-A
It doesn't really matter if Poseidon helped in the feat (Zeus was going to do it eitherways), it's still going to be 6-A
As usual, all Olympians Sca-
"Hold on a sec
Unlike the tier 3, 4 and 5, this 6-A feat was done by one of the Big 3
Why would Dionysus or Hermes scale to this feat"
Apart from the fact that the lesser Olympians have been accepted to scale to the major ones in this thread (credits to @The_Fiend), the feat was once again a very off handed one. Not something Zeus busted his ass doing or something he achieved with his divine weapon
Yeah….No
I ain't settling for downgrade
Worst case, they all retain their 6-B ratings
I ain't settling for downgrade
Worst case, they all retain their 6-B ratings
Zeus's lightning bolt is stated to make hydrogen bombs look like firecrackers
I'll list out why I think it's not a hyperbole
Here's an example of one of such calcs
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan/Zeus's_Master_Bolt
Totally coincidental that I presented the calc with the highest possible output. Absolutely not intentional
I'll list out why I think it's not a hyperbole
- Chiron is super knowledgeable on the workings on the supernatural. He most like have seen the lightning bolt in action
- He's also super knowledgeable on the mortal sides. The dawn of nukes was during WW2. Most wars in history were instigated by demigods on the Greek and Roman sides. WW2 specifically was a war between the children of Hades and those of Poseidon and Zeus. I won't be surprised if the Manhattan project was done in the Hephaestus bunker at Camp Half Blood
- It's not exactly outlierish as it's consistently stated to be the nuke equivalent of the Olympians
Here's an example of one of such calcs
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan/Zeus's_Master_Bolt
Totally coincidental that I presented the calc with the highest possible output. Absolutely not intentional
That's all for this section ig
I don't think I have the capacity to redo this thread again, most especially the tier 4
Unless I read TSATS and TCotG and find something new
VOTES
Proposals | Agree | Disagree | Neutral |
Tier 3 | @IdiosyncraticLawyer @GraveDigger84 @AnonymousBlank | ||
Tier 4 | @DMUA @KingTempest @AnimesFreak2 @GraveDigger84 @AnonymousBlank, @SheevShezarrine @Ret_of_Guys, @BoastJr | @IdiosyncraticLawyer | |
Tier 5 (Artemis) | @AnimesFreak2 @GraveDigger84 | @IdiosyncraticLawyer, @Antvasima | |
Tier 5 (Supernova) | @AnimesFreak2 @GraveDigger84 | @IdiosyncraticLawyer | |
Tier 6 | @AnimesFreak2 @GraveDigger84 @IdiosyncraticLawyer | ||
Tier 7 | |||
Bonus |
Last edited: