Keeping Up With The Olympians (2 of ????)

[Testarossa002]

Continued from here
Downgrade thread here
Things to point out before going fully into the thread

1. This thread doesn't include speed scaling
2. While the OP of the original downgrade had the right idea, trying to revise the AP, LS and Speed of 20+ characters in a single thread was not going to end well. That section of the verse was pratically in a limbo when the thread ended.
3. I have all read the greco-roman RR novels at least twice. I'd appreciate if I don't get dismissive disagreements to the thread. Just view it as someone dropping an alternative interpretation to what you read.
4. There's going to be large walls of text. I don't think a lot of people have read the series so my evidences are including contexts so as not to appear jarring
Since that's out of the way, let's get into the meat for today
5. Please refrain from discussing about other species scaling (Demigods, Titans, Monsters and Giants). I wasn't planning on revising them in this series but I'll make sure to tackle it in the next section

Spoiler: Tier 3

I'm not going to engage allat about these but just to fulfill all righteousness

Feats:
A fight among the Gods was stated capable of destroying the universe

I never understood what made Persephone such a big deal. I mean, for a girl who almost destroyed the universe, she seems kind of meh.
Sure, she was pretty. She had her mother’s long blond hair and Zeus’s sky blue eyes. She didn’t have a care in the world. She was sure the whole world had been invented just for her pleasure. I guess when your parents are both gods, you can come to believe that.

~Percy Jackson's Greek Gods: Persephone Marries her Stalker


Hera's breast milk created the milky way

Hera!’
It was the first time she’d said Hera’s name in the baby’s presence. Hercules bit down hard on Hera’s sensitive flesh, screamed ‘RARR!’ and pooped, all at the same time, causing Hera to scream and hurl the kid.
Fortunately, Athena was a good catch.
Some legends say that Hera’s breast milk sprayed across the sky and created the Milky Way. I don’t know. That seems like a whole lot of solar systems from just one squirt. What is for sure: those few sips of the good stuff instilled Hercules with divine strength and health, compliments of the goddess who hated him the most

~Percy Jackson's Greek Heroes: Hercules Does Twelve Stupid Things

Yeah yeah
It's not real cosmic stuffs
Just a mirage in our atmosphere


While I'm not going to actively argue for this, I'll elaborate more on the debunks in the next section

Spoiler: Tier 4

Feat: Artemis creates a constellation at mftl+ speed

Artemis stood, said a kind of blessing, breathed into her cupped hand and released the silver dust to the sky. It flew up, sparkling, and vanished.
For a moment, I didn’t see anything different. Then Annabeth gasped. Looking up in the sky, I saw that the stars were brighter now. They made a pattern I had never noticed before – a gleaming constellation that looked a lot like a girl’s figure – a girl with a bow, running across the sky.
‘Let the world honour you, my huntress,’ Artemis said. ‘Live forever in the stars

~The Titan's Curse: Chapter 18
Here's where shit's gonna go down

Debunk 1: Like in the Greek Gods novel, Greeks believed that the stars are just hung in the sky. So it's obviously not the same as real life scientific stars.

Right for the most part but let's go back and see some explanations about the Gods

Divine/Monster stuffs are born out of loads of people believing in the same thing, effectively warping reality

“That’s exactly what the Greeks thought. The gesture had nothing to do with shh. It symbolized the hieroglyph for child.
Nevertheless, the Greeks decided he must be the god of silence and secrets. They changed his name to Harpocrates. They built some shrines, started worshiping him, and boom, he’s a Greek-Egyptian hybrid god.”
Meg snorted. “It can’t be that easy to make a new god.”
“Never underestimate the power of thousands of human minds all believing the same thing. They can remake reality. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not.”

~The Tyrant's Tomb: Chapter 28
I can agree with the fact that Zeus and co weren't creating real stars because the ancient Greeks did not believe in them that way. However, that can't apply to modern times.

For the most part (excluding flat earthners), humans now believe the that the stars are bajillion times bigger than the earth and bajillion light years away like you know, real stars. Hence, why
it's literally impossible for Artemis to manifest anything other than tier a 4 constellation.

You can raise the argument that "But this modern humans don't worship the gods nor believe in them. So it's not possible for them to influence the way gods create stuffs" but that's not necessarily true
Here's an excerpt from the first few chapters of the franchise

Come now, Percy. What you call “Western civilization”. Do you think it’s just an abstract concept? No, it’s a living force. A collective consciousness that has burned bright for thousands of years. The gods are part of it. You might even say they are the source of it, or at least, they are tied so tightly to it that they couldn’t possibly fade, not unless all of Western civilization were obliterated.
The fire started in Greece. Then, as you well know – or as I hope you know, since you passed my course – the heart of the fire moved to Rome, and so did the gods. Oh, different names, perhaps – Jupiter for Zeus, Venus for Aphrodite, and so on – but the same forces, the same gods.’ ‘And then they died.’ ‘Died? No. Did the West die? The gods simply moved, to Germany, to France, to Spain, for a while. Wherever the flame was brightest, the gods were there. They spent several centuries in England. All you need to do is look at the architecture. People do not forget the gods. Every place they’ve ruled, for the last three thousand years, you can see them in paintings, in statues, on the most important buildings. And yes, Percy, of course they are now in your United States. Look at your symbol, the eagle of Zeus. Look at the statue of Prometheus in Rockefeller Center, the Greek facades of your government buildings in Washington. I defy you to find any American city where the Olympians are not prominently displayed in multiple places. Like it or not – and believe me, plenty of people weren’t very fond of Rome, either – America is now the heart of the flame. It is the great power of the West. And so Olympus is here. And we are here.’

~The Lightning Thief: Chapter 5
People remember and reference the gods across every civilization
Granting them relevance
It's self evident because, well, they haven't faded yet. At least not all of them


Debunk 2: It's just an illusion. No stars were created or shown
Yeah….no
The Huntress has been shown to exist beyond the moment of the feat as at end of The Titan's Curse

Twelve enormous thrones made a U round a central hearth, just like the placement of the cabins at camp. The ceiling above glittered with constellations – even the newest one, Zoë the Huntress, making her way across the heavens with her bow drawn.

~The Titan's Curse: Chapter 19

The next time I awoke it was night, but I wasn’t sure if it was the same night or many nights later. I was in the bed in the cave, but I rose and wrapped a robe around myself and padded outside. The stars were brilliant – thousands of them, like you only see way out in the country. I could make out all the constellations Annabeth had taught me: Capricorn, Pegasus, Sagittarius. And there, near the southern horizon, was a new constellation: the Huntress, a tribute to a friend
of ours who had died last winter.

~The Battle of The Labyrinth: Chapter 12
Actually seen in the sky as part of the other "real stars"

Debunk 3: Even though the stars were real, she only brightened the stars not create them from scratch

This would be fine and all if this part didn't exist from Son of Neptune

His dreams were as disjointed and scary as ever.
He imagined himself on Mount Tamalpais, north of San Francisco, fighting at the old Titan stronghold. That didn’t make sense. He hadn’t been with the Romans when they had attacked, but he saw it all clearly: a Titan in armor, Annabet hand two other girls fighting at Percy’s side. One of the girls died in the battle. Percy knelt over her, watching as she dissolved into stars.
Then he saw the giant warship in its dry dock. The bronze dragon figurehead glinted in the morning light. The riggings and armaments were complete, but something was wrong.
A hatch in the deck was open, and smoke poured from some kind of engine. A boy with curly black hair was cursing as he pounded the engine with a wrench. Two other demigods squatted next to him, watching with concern. One was a teenage guy with short blond hair.
The other was a girl with long dark hair.

~The Son of Neptune: Chapter 25
So no. She did create stars
Even if she did-.....more of that in the next tier

Debunk 4: Apollo's Sun Chariot. No explanation needed. That's a blatant contradiction

That's actually a very good point. But let's examine the evidence again.

Downsizing,’ Apollo said. ‘The Romans started it. They couldn’t afford all those temple sacrifices, so they laid off Helios and Selene and folded their duties into our job descriptions. My sis got the moon. I got the sun. It was pretty annoying at first, but at least I got this cool car.’ ‘But how does it work?’ Nico asked. ‘I thought the sun was a big fiery ball of gas!’ Apollo chuckled and ruffled Nico’s hair. ‘That rumour probably got started because Artemis used to call me a big fiery ball of gas. Seriously, kid, it depends on whether you’re talking astronomy or philosophy. You want to talk astronomy? Bah, what fun is that? You want to talk about how humans think about the sun? Ah, now that’s more interesting. They’ve got a lot riding on the sun… er, so to speak. It keeps them warm, grows their crops, powers engines, makes everything look, well, sunnier.
This chariot is built out of human dreams about the sun, kid. It’s as old as Western Civilization. Every day, it drives across the sky from east to west, lighting up all those puny little mortal lives. The chariot is a manifestation of the sun’s power, the way mortals perceive it. Make sense?’

~The Titan's Curse: Chapter 4
This was interpreted to mean that Apollo's Sun Chariot ≠ The one some 90 million km away from us. Which is pretty valid

Then there's also this

Of course, even without my help, other forces would keep the cosmos chugging along. Many different belief systems powered the revolution of the planets and stars. Wolves would still chase Sol across the sky. Ra would continue his daily journey in his sun barque. Tonatiuh would keep running on his surplus blood from human sacrifices back in the Aztec days. And that other thing—science— would still generate gravity and quantum physics and whatever.

~The Hidden Oracle: Chapter 16
Used to prove that Apollo's control over the "Sun" is not equal to the aforementioned science Sun

This is quite tricky tbh but let's get into it
I'll like to provide another interpretation to the evidences provided
Each of the belief systems (including science) have control of the sun in a way

Pointing this out from the last scan
Many different belief systems powered the revolution of the planets and stars.

Apollo never said that the Supernatural doesn't apply to stars and planets. In fact, his statement implies the opposite as they power the revolution i.e the movement of the stars and planets
Not that the Supernatural is only manipulating what humans perceive them to be.

To add to this, Chiron also says this:

Metaphysical? But you were just talking about –’ ‘Ah, gods, plural, as in, great beings that control the forces of nature and human endeavours: the immortal gods of Olympus. That’s a
smaller matter.’ ‘Smaller!’ ‘Yes, quite. The gods we discussed in Latin class.’ ‘Zeus,’ I said. ‘Hera. Apollo. You mean them.’ And there it was again – distant thunder on a cloudless day.
‘Young man,’ said Mr D. ‘I would really be less casual about throwing those names around, if I were you.’ ‘But they’re stories,’ I said. ‘They’re – myths, to explain lightning and the seasons and stuff.
They’re what people believed before there was science.’ ‘Science!’ Mr D scoffed. ‘And tell me, Perseus Jackson –’ I flinched when he said my real name, which I never told anybody.
‘– what will people think of your “science” two thousand years from now?’ Mr D continued.
‘Hmm? They will call it primitive mumbo jumbo. That’s what. Oh, I love mortals – they have absolutely no sense of perspective. They think they’ve come so˜o˜o far. And have they, Chiron? Look at this boy and tell me.’ I wasn’t liking Mr D much, but there was something about the way he called me mortal, as if… he wasn’t. It was enough to put a lump in my throat, to suggest why Grover was dutifully minding his cards, chewing his soda can, and keeping his mouth shut.

~The Lightning Thief: Chapter 5

This is further shown in the Kane Chronicles (multiple times too) when Ra's destruction would result in the destruction of the real sun

Maybe that had been his plan all along. He’d let us wake Ra only partially so the sun god remained old and feeble. Then Menshikov would leave us trapped in the Duat while he used whatever evil magic he’d planned to free Apophis. When the dawn came, there would be no sunrise, no return of Ra. Instead Apophis would rise and destroy civilization. Our friends would have fought all night at Brooklyn House for nothing. Twenty-four hours from now, when we finally managed to leave the Duat, we’d find the world a dark, frozen wasteland, ruled by Chaos. Everything we cared about would be gone. Then Apophis could swallow Ra and complete his victory.

~The Throne of Fire: Chapter 21

A different statue came to life—a gilded wooden pharaoh with a hunting spear. Its eyes turned the color of blood. Its carved mouth twisted into a smile. “Your magic is weak, Sadie Kane. Human civilization has grown as old and rotten. I will swallow the sun god and plunge your world into darkness. The Sea of Chaos will consume you all.”

~The Serpent's Shadow: Chapter 2

“But that’s a legend,” Carter said. “The earth revolves around the sun. The sun never actually descends under the earth.”
“Have you learned nothing of Egypt?” Bast asked. “Conflicting stories can be equally true. The sun is a ball of fire in space, yes. But its image you see as it crosses the sky, the life-giving warmth and light it brings to the earth—that was embodied by Ra. The sun was his throne, his source of power, his very spirit. But now Ra has retreated into the heavens. He sleeps, and the sun is just the sun. Ra’s boat no longer travels on its cycle through the Duat. He no longer lights the dark, and the dead feel his absence most keenly.”
“Indeed,” Bloodstained Blade said, though he didn’t sound very upset about it. “Legend says the world will end when Ra gets too tired to continue living in his weakened state. Apophis will swallow the sun. Darkness will reign. Chaos will overcome Ma’at, and the Serpent will reign forever.”
Part of me thought this was absurd. The planets would not simply stop spinning. The sun would not cease to rise.

~The Red Pyramid: Chapter 27

"How come this doesn't apply to Apollo? He was stripped of his powers and nothing happened to the sun."
Two things
1. Apollo, although weakened, still had some of his godly essense left in him

‘Replace!’ Medea said, then began counting on her fingers as if giving cooking tips on daytime television. ‘First, I extract every bit of Apollo’s immortal essence – which isn’t much at the moment, so that won’t take long.
Then I’ll add his essence to what I already have cooking, the leftover power of my dearly departed grandfather.’

~The Burning Maze: Chapter 16

2. Apollo also, while being the sun god doesn't have as much influence on it. As he has an array of sphere of influences (music, poetry, archery, oracles, healing) unlike his predecessor Helios. The Sun and Apollo are not interwoven the same way Ra or Helios are with it. The Sun getting destroyed won't automatically destroy Apollo. Vice versa

Humans began to look at me – brilliant, golden and shining – and associate me with the sun. Can you blame them?
I never asked for the honour. One morning I simply woke up and found myself the master of the sun chariot, along with all my other duties. Helios faded to a dim echo, a whisper from the depths of Tartarus.
Now, thanks to his evil sorceress granddaughter, he was back. Sort of.
A white-hot maelstrom roared around Medea. I felt Helios’s anger, his scorching temper that used to scare the daylights out of me. (Ew, bad pun.
Sorry.) Helios had never been a god of all trades. He was not like me, with many talents and interests. He did one thing with dedication and piercing focus: he drove the sun. Now, I could feel how bitter he was, knowing that his role had been assumed by me, a mere dabbler in solar matters, a weekend sun-chariot driver. For Medea, gathering his power from Tartarus had not been difficult. She had simply called on his resentment, his desire for revenge. Helios was burning to destroy me, the god who had eclipsed him. (Ew, there’s another one.)
In fact, he did imply that he doesn't take the sun gig as seriously as he should

~The Burning Maze: Chapter 18

This also applies to his twin (Artemis/Diana) as she's also not a one trick pony unlike Selene with the moon

Debunk 5: This is just an outlier, nothing else in the present times imply that the gods can do something on this scale

To start with, the gods do not appear to make any sort of effort when performing their feats.
They just…..do it
Nothing implies Poseidon flipping islands like skillets to be a cap on his strength
Nor Demeter nuking mountains

The only time the gods were pushed to their limits was again Typhon. Who was eventually sealed under a mountain. Apart from the facts that immortals don't do well when imprisoned
(Hera, Atlas, Zeus, Artemis, Ares. ****, one could mention instances with the fingers on both hands), the mountain didn't just spawn on him. Zeus acted on the mountain. It's not just class T weights that subdued Typhon, it's Class T + Zeus's strength

As an addendum, Apollo implied twice that he could create constellations if he had full access to his powers

AT LEAST WE DID NOT LAND IN PERU.
My feet hit stone, jarring my ankles. We stumbled against a wall, but Meg provided me with a convenient cushion.
We found ourselves in a dark tunnel braced with oaken beams. The hole we’d fallen through was gone, replaced by an earthen ceiling. I saw no sign of the other teams, but from somewhere above I could vaguely hear Harley chanting, “Go! Go! Go!”
“When I get my powers back,” I said, “I will turn Harley into a constellation called the Ankle Biter. At least constellations are silent.”
Meg pointed down the corridor. “Look.”
As my eyes adjusted, I realized the tunnel’s dim light emanated from a glowing piece of fruit about thirty meters away.

~The Hidden Oracle: Chapter 17

“It’s much better for you,” Emmie chided. “You’re not immortal anymore, and you need to take care of yourself.”
“But cheeseburgers,” Jo muttered.
Leo plunked the cheese wheel in front of me. “Cut me a wedge of this, my good man. Chop-chop!”
I scowled at him. “Don’t test me, V aldez. When I am a god again, I will make a constellation out of you. I will call it the Small Exploding Latino.”
“I like it!” He patted my shoulder, causing my knife to jiggle.
Did no one fear the wrath of the gods anymore?

~The Dark Prophecy: Chapter 7

There's also this
You know how I said I could agree with the ancient Greek creation debunk?
Well……..
Warning: This is quite long. Like half a chapter

It's the PoV of a satry from the modern times

I appreciated this sage advice but decided to seek my own technique for survival training. So I did what I often do when contemplating a challenge: I looked to the stars for guidance. That’s when it hit me—I could teach demigods to look to the stars for guidance!
Constellations are awesome orientation and navigation tools. They have great historic significance, too, since they’re made up of beings and people placed in the heavens by the Greek gods. So it was a win-win concept.
Here’s a little taste of my proposed lesson plan:
WHATEVER, MOTHER (OR THE W-M-SHAPED CONSTELLATION)
Cassiopeia, queen of Ethiopia, bragged that she and her daughter, Andromeda, were more beautiful than Poseidon’s girls, the Nereids.
“Gods, Mother, embarrass me much?” groaned Andromeda.
The Nereids complained to their dad. As punishment for Cassiopeia’s boast, Poseidon sent Cetus the sea monster to wreak havoc on Ethiopia. The only way to end the reign of terror was to sacrifice Andromeda to the beast.
Naturally, Cassiopeia didn’t tell her daughter that. Instead, she lured Andromeda to the coast with promises of a lovely spa day by the sea. Once there, she chained her to a rock within easy snacking distance of Cetus.
“Mo-ther!” Andromeda was heard to complain over the pounding of the waves. “These chains clash with my outfit! The salt spray is making my hair frizz! And when is my masseuse getting here?”
“Here he comes now!” Cassiopeia called back as Cetus reared out of the surf and charged the princess. (Note: Grover would have identified Cetus as an “immediate threat.”)
Seconds before the monster struck, a figure swooped out of the sky. It was the hero Perseus! He drew his sword of diamonds (“Ooo! Shiny!” Andromeda was heard to say over Cetus’s snarls), slew the beast, freed Andromeda, controlled her frizz with smoothing serum, and married her. They had nine children, founded the city of Mycenae, and lived happily ever after.
When they died, Perseus and Andromeda were turned into constellations. They’re so dim, though, that they can be hard to find. Instead, look for Cassiopeia, who was also set in the stars. As pushy in the heavens as she was on Earth, you can’t miss her pattern: five bright stars that form a W or M shape, depending on how you look at it. Find it, and you’re on the right track to getting home.
FYI: Mother and daughter constellations are very close to each other. So close, in fact, that if you listen in on a moonless night, you can hear Andromeda telling Cassiopeia to “back off and give her some space already.”
BEAR WITH ME
Zeus was sneaking around behind Hera’s back—again—with a lovely female named Callisto, who happened to be one of Artemis’s Hunters. Why Callisto broke her vow to stay away from men is anyone’s guess. Some say Zeus tricked her by disguising himself as Artemis.
Hera found out about Zeus’s infidelity—again—and with one angry poof turned Callisto into a
bear, which she then asked Artemis to hunt. Or maybe she asked Arcas, who was Zeus and Callisto’s son and a skilled archer. The details are a little murky. Either way, Callisto the bear was staring down the pointy end of a drawn arrow when Zeus finally took notice.
“Hmm. This may be partially my fault,” Zeus confessed as he defused the threat. Callisto reared up on her hind legs, crossed her paws over her hairy chest, and gave him the bear version of “You think?”
“Let me make it up to you.” He transformed her into stars and lobbed them into the sky. He did the same for Arcas, figuring the boy would be safe from Hera that way. The stars formed patterns that looked like bears, which is why the Greeks named them the Big Dipper and the Little Dipper.
Ha-ha! Just kidding! The Greeks called them Ursa Major and Ursa Minor, or the Great Bear and the Little Bear. Ursa Major looks like a—well, like a big water dipper, actually, with a bent handle and a wide-mouthed bowl. Ursa Minor is a smaller version of a dipper with a handle that bends up instead of down.
FYI: Rumor has it that Zeus and Callisto secretly hang out when he’s in his Roman form. He hides in the planet Jupiter—or maybe he becomes the planet Jupiter—and she revolves around him in the nearby moon named after her. Watch for a supernova in that quadrant of the sky when Hera discovers their trysts.
LOOK TO THE STARS FOR GUIDANCE
So, how do these stories help if you’re lost? If you can pick out Ursa Major, Ursa Minor, and Cassiopeia in the night sky, you can find north. The three constellations are bunched up around Polaris, the one fixed star in the sky. Find the constellations, and you can find Polaris. Find Polaris, and you’ve found north. Find north, and you can figure out where east, west, and south
are. And then you’re as good as home!
Note: When I shared my lesson plan with Grover, he pointed out that this method of navigation only works if you know in which direction your home lies. Also, it has proven to be less effective during daylight hours. Oh, well. It’s a start.

~Camp Half-Blood Chronicles, Section 7, Part 1
I'm not particularly hung up on this side of my argument. Just felt the need to drop this here

That should be all from me from this section

Summary: The Olympians get bumped into tier 4

Don't know the exact values but yeah

Spoiler: Tier 5

Feat 1: Flashback to one of the debunks to the tier 4 feat
It being that Artemis simply brightened up already existing stars. I don't necessarily agree with that interpretation but brightening up a constellation is a tier 5 feat. It could get recalced to get an exact value. Given how the luminosity was sustained for at least 2 years, it could get much higher

As usual, every Olympian scales

Feat 2: Supernovas

There are multiple statements of supernova attributed to the gods when they show their true form
Such as this

Around the courtyard, monsters began to panic and retreat, but there was no escape for them.
Hera glowed brighter. She shouted, “Cover your eyes, my heroes!”
But Jason was too much in shock. He understood too late.
He watched as Hera turned into a supernova, exploding in a ring of force that vaporized every monster instantly. Jason fell, light searing into his mind, and his last thought was that his body was burning.

~The Lost Hero: Chapter 50
And this

Zeus’s mortal disguise burned away. He appeared in all his glory as a swirling pillar of fire and lightning, like a supernova, in Semele’s living room. The furniture went up in flames. The door blew off its hinges. The window shutters exploded.

~Percy Jackson's Greek Gods: Hera Gets A Little Cuckoo
And this

FYI: Rumor has it that Zeus and Callisto secretly hang out when he’s in his Roman form. He hides in the planet Jupiter—or maybe he becomes the planet Jupiter—and she revolves around him in the nearby moon named after her. Watch for a supernova in that quadrant of the sky when Hera discovers their trysts.

~Camp Half-Blood Chronicles, Section 7, Part 1

I would not subscribe to interpret them going actual supernova but here's an alternative interpretation

We already know that the major attribute of the Gods true form is the light they emit which is deadly to nearly everything in the verse

I'd prefer to interpret the statement as the gods glowing as bright as supernovas
Rather than actual supernovas

And we actually see it get mentioned in The Last Olympian

Hermes glared at me and my voice faltered. The look on his face wasn’t really anger, though. It was pain. Deep, incredible pain.
‘I will leave you now,’ he said tightly. ‘I have a war to fight.’ He began to shine. I turned away and made sure Annabeth did the same, because she was still frozen in shock.
Good luck, Percy, Martha the snake whispered.
Hermes glowed with the light of a supernova. Then he was gone.

~The Last Olympian: Chapter 9
"B-but hyperbole"
Well yeah, the Zeus's own uses like which would imply hyperbole but that's besides the point
Author intent also matter here.
RR has implied on more than one occasion that the God's true form has something to do with supernova
It's not just a one off statement

The God's true form is also something that's treated in canon to be something extremely deadly and forbidden
It's not that much of a stretch tbh

I asked what would be the potential yield of luminosity for the statement and the answer was in Yottatons (5-A) at the very least
Mind you, this is as a result of them just existing at their full power

Spoiler: Tier 6

Feat: Zeus (and Poseidon) flood the planet

No one has invented bug bombs yet,” Hera pointed out.
“Oh, right.” Zeus frowned. “Then a flood. I’ll open the skies and unleash torrents of rain until all the humans drown!”
Poseidon grunted. “Floods are my department.”
“You can help,” Zeus offered.
“But without humans,” Hestia asked from the hearth, “who will worship you, my lord? Who will build your temples and burn your sacrifices?”
“We’ll think of something,” Zeus said. “This isn’t the first race of humans, after all. We can always make more.”
According to the old stories, this was technically true. The humans back in Kronos’s time had been called the golden race. Supposedly they’d all died out and been replaced by the silver race. The ones in the early days of Mount Olympus were called the bronze race. What made those humans different from us? There are a lot of stories, but the main thing was: they died off, and we haven’t… yet.
“Besides,” Zeus continued, “a flood is good. We need to give the earth a proper power-washing once in a while to get all the grime off the sidewalks.”

~Percy Jackson's Greek Gods: Zeus Kills Everyone

According to this, it's easily 6-A
It doesn't really matter if Poseidon helped in the feat (Zeus was going to do it eitherways), it's still going to be 6-A

As usual, all Olympians Sca-

"Hold on a sec
Unlike the tier 3, 4 and 5, this 6-A feat was done by one of the Big 3
Why would Dionysus or Hermes scale to this feat"

Apart from the fact that the lesser Olympians have been accepted to scale to the major ones in this thread (credits to @The_Fiend), the feat was once again a very off handed one. Not something Zeus busted his ass doing or something he achieved with his divine weapon

Spoiler: Tier 7

Yeah….No

I ain't settling for downgrade
Worst case, they all retain their 6-B ratings

Spoiler: Raiton: Hakai!! (Bonus)

Zeus's lightning bolt is stated to make hydrogen bombs look like firecrackers

I'll list out why I think it's not a hyperbole

1. Chiron is super knowledgeable on the workings on the supernatural. He most like have seen the lightning bolt in action
2. He's also super knowledgeable on the mortal sides. The dawn of nukes was during WW2. Most wars in history were instigated by demigods on the Greek and Roman sides. WW2 specifically was a war between the children of Hades and those of Poseidon and Zeus. I won't be surprised if the Manhattan project was done in the Hephaestus bunker at Camp Half Blood
3. It's not exactly outlierish as it's consistently stated to be the nuke equivalent of the Olympians

Here's an example of one of such calcs
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan/Zeus's_Master_Bolt
Totally coincidental that I presented the calc with the highest possible output. Absolutely not intentional

That's all for this section ig
I don't think I have the capacity to redo this thread again, most especially the tier 4
Unless I read TSATS and TCotG and find something new
VOTES

Proposals	Agree	Disagree	Neutral
Tier 3		@IdiosyncraticLawyer @GraveDigger84 @AnonymousBlank
Tier 4	@DMUA @KingTempest @AnimesFreak2 @GraveDigger84 @AnonymousBlank, @SheevShezarrine @Ret_of_Guys, @BoastJr	@IdiosyncraticLawyer
Tier 5 (Artemis)	@AnimesFreak2 @GraveDigger84	@IdiosyncraticLawyer, @Antvasima
Tier 5 (Supernova)	@AnimesFreak2 @GraveDigger84	@IdiosyncraticLawyer
Tier 6	@AnimesFreak2 @GraveDigger84 @IdiosyncraticLawyer
Tier 7
Bonus

 

[KingTempest]

...well shit

I gotta triple check to see what's really the most solid and most consistent

What makes the star creation scaleable to AP that they can fight with?

 

[Testarossa002]

Arsenal winning soured my mood

What makes the star creation scaleable to AP that they can fight with?

I actually didn't think much about this. Just wanted to make the feats accepted.

Looking at the criterias now, I think I can make something work

The first obvious requirement is that it must be certain that an actual creation feat took place. If, for example, stars appear to have been created it must be certain that those aren't just minor light sources looking similar.

Furthermore, the object in question must be of physical nature. Energy beams and hard light are typically not considered quantifiable by this method.

Well, this is subject to the feats getting accepted in the first place

In order to apply to a character's capacity to harm other characters, that is their usual Attack Potency, their Creation has to be connected to their other abilities. Often that is due to a common power system, in which the same energy used for creation is used for attacks. For example, it can be reasoned that a mage which expends mana from its energy pool to make a city and then channels a similar or greater amount of mana into another attack can scale to its creation feat. However a character who can create objects without other ways of harming their opponents by using an equal amount of energy from their energy pool wouldn't be able to harness that power to hurt another character, and would fall under a light form of Environmental Destruction.

Let's see
Artemis uses magic to perform the feat
Against Typhon, she uses moonlight beams to attack him (more of that in later sections)
While it's not exactly quantified, the creation feat was done pretty casually moreso while she was weakened from imprisonment by Atlas
Against Typhon where she has no reason to hold back on her magical output, she attacks him with magical beams.

You can point out if I interpreted the criteria well. It's my first time dealing with this

Lastly, the creation of the object(s) in question needs to happen within a reasonably short timeframe for the whole result to apply to the Attack Potency.

The whole feat happens in like 5 minutes with extreme highball

That's all ig

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Definitely not Tier 3. Based on the counter arguments to the Tier 4 shenanigans, we would need to take into account when such feats happened and given it was back in the day, it wouldn’t be on the same scale as modern day feats due to the belief system.

Tier 5 really only has one feat since the Tier 4 Artemis is more consistent and supported than Tier 5 and the supernova statements blatantly contradict what they actually do so it’s really just the Master Bolt comparison.

Unless there are other tier 6 feats, that section looking rather thin.

Conclusion: Based on the OP, Tier 7 downgrade is best. Jk, tier 4 is filled with constellation feats and references across multiple mythologies. Now peeps gotta discuss whether it scales to scrapping.

 

[KingTempest]

Tier 3 in the old days, tier 4 in the modern times makes sense

Maybe make different keys for the gods

 

[Testarossa002]

Based on the counter arguments to the Tier 4 shenanigans, we would need to take into account when such feats happened and given it was back in the day, it wouldn’t be on the same scale as modern day feats due to the belief system.

That's why I decided to abandon the whole gods constellation feat in the Percy Jackson's Greek Gods book and focus on Artemis's feat and Apollo's possible creation statement in modern times

supernova statements blatantly contradict what they actually do so it’s really just the Master Bolt comparison.

I actually asked around off site and the response I got was DC showings not being relevant for luminosity feats
Rather, radiation levels or something would be what would be taken into consideration

Unless there are other tier 6 feats, that section looking rather thin.

There's also the 6-B sea vaping feats which are already accepted
And as always, it was depicted to be a rather off handed feat for the gods
I also remember a @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan calc for Gods True form being 6-C via being pure energy or something
His blog posts are rather voluminous and I don't remember the blog title

Based on the OP, Tier 7 downgrade is best

Kinda consistent with Amateur Percy damaging Ares

Tier 3 in the old days, tier 4 in the modern times makes sense

Maybe make different keys for the gods

That's actually not a bad idea
Was planning on doing something similar for Kronos
I just don't know how it'll look like

Could you tag @IdiosyncraticLawyer ?
He was one of the main supporters in the downgrade thread

 

[KingTempest]

Yo @IdiosyncraticLawyer

 

[AnimesFreak2]

Following for now

Will comment later once read

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Well, at first glance, your arguments for scaling the pantheon's celestial body feats to real science seem much more reasonable than anything people tried to present to me in the previous downgrade thread. However, I'm not sold on them yet after one reading; I'll make a longer post with my take on them after I go check the source material to see how valid your interpretation is.

 

[GraveDigger84]

Judging by how casually most of the tier 6 feats were completed anything higher than that besides tier 3 should be fine, waiting to see more responses to this though.

 

[AnimesFreak2]

OK so Imma go through this one by one. Keep in mind it's been a few years since I re-read PJO ( I actually planned on re-reading the whole series soon so this should be a good way to up my need to do so I guess )


Universal Stuff - Good statement but one isn't enough ( I know there is more universal evidence in the series, especially in the egyptian and norse sagas but since it seems like you're just doing greek stuff some more evidence from the original 2 series being posted would be nice )

Galaxy stuff - Valid myth from IRL but neutral for now until I see more arguments for the mythology/reality stuff for ancient times

Star stuff - Agreed, any feats like that in modern era should be fine given what humans now know about stars

Supernova stuff - Seems fine, pretty consistent statements.

Noah's Ark ripoff - Seems fine, that was a blatant feat in PJO Greek Gods

 

[Testarossa002]

Bump

 

[DMUA]

I'd just stick to High 4-C off the Artemis feat, yeah

 

[Alsotime]

Bump

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'll comment on Tier 4 and below stuff later, but I just want to get out of the way that we absolutely shouldn't be considering Tier 3 for the Olympians.
Hades and Demeter's Universal Statement
Multiple issues here:

1. In the context of Greek Gods, "universe" seems to refer to the sky, earth, sea, and underworld, as Hades was described as having "got the short end of the universe" because he rolled the lowest dice when the Big Three were dividing up the world.
2. This statement is almost certainly hyperbole. This feat never happened and is only alluded to by Percy, who's extremely sarcastic and humorous. Demeter and Hades threaten to starve the world by continuing a global famine and raising the dead in a zombie apocalypse, respectively, and don't directly fight, and a famine/zombie apocalypse isn't going to do much more than ravage the earth's surface.
3. We have no timeframe for this narrowly averted war, making the energy involved unquantifiable.

Hera's Breast Milk Creating the Milky Way
Now, I've said before that mythological stars are only hung in the sky and don't scale to scientific stars. I'm going to leave your argument against this for later, but even by your interpretation, this feat is still unquantifiable, as you've conceded that this was at least the case back in mythological times, which is when this feat took place.

 

[Testarossa002]

I'm fine with dropping the tier 3 argument
Like I already said in the OP, not particularly advocating for it

My forum has need giving me the dirty work this week

Unable to access it for long periods of time

 

[Testarossa002]

Bump

Updated the votes tally
Let me know if I registered your votes correctly

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Bump

Updated the votes tally
Let me know if I registered your votes correctly

Put me down for Tier 4 plz.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Okay, after reading over your arguments, I'm still not convinced that scaling mythological stars to scientific stars is acceptable or that we should take the "supernova" feats at face value.

Debunk 1: Like in the Greek Gods novel, Greeks believed that the stars are just hung in the sky. So it's obviously not the same as real life scientific stars.

Right for the most part but let's go back and see some explanations about the Gods

Divine/Monster stuffs are born out of loads of people believing in the same thing, effectively warping reality

“That’s exactly what the Greeks thought. The gesture had nothing to do with shh. It symbolized the hieroglyph for child.
Nevertheless, the Greeks decided he must be the god of silence and secrets. They changed his name to Harpocrates. They built some shrines, started worshiping him, and boom, he’s a Greek-Egyptian hybrid god.”
Meg snorted. “It can’t be that easy to make a new god.”
“Never underestimate the power of thousands of human minds all believing the same thing. They can remake reality. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not.”

~The Tyrant's Tomb: Chapter 28
I can agree with the fact that Zeus and co weren't creating real stars because the ancient Greeks did not believe in them that way. However, that can't apply to modern times.

For the most part (excluding flat earthners), humans now believe the that the stars are bajillion times bigger than the earth and bajillion light years away like you know, real stars. Hence, why
it's literally impossible for Artemis to manifest anything other than tier a 4 constellation.

You can raise the argument that "But this modern humans don't worship the gods nor believe in them. So it's not possible for them to influence the way gods create stuffs" but that's not necessarily true
Here's an excerpt from the first few chapters of the franchise

Come now, Percy. What you call “Western civilization”. Do you think it’s just an abstract concept? No, it’s a living force. A collective consciousness that has burned bright for thousands of years. The gods are part of it. You might even say they are the source of it, or at least, they are tied so tightly to it that they couldn’t possibly fade, not unless all of Western civilization were obliterated.
The fire started in Greece. Then, as you well know – or as I hope you know, since you passed my course – the heart of the fire moved to Rome, and so did the gods. Oh, different names, perhaps – Jupiter for Zeus, Venus for Aphrodite, and so on – but the same forces, the same gods.’ ‘And then they died.’ ‘Died? No. Did the West die? The gods simply moved, to Germany, to France, to Spain, for a while. Wherever the flame was brightest, the gods were there. They spent several centuries in England. All you need to do is look at the architecture. People do not forget the gods. Every place they’ve ruled, for the last three thousand years, you can see them in paintings, in statues, on the most important buildings. And yes, Percy, of course they are now in your United States. Look at your symbol, the eagle of Zeus. Look at the statue of Prometheus in Rockefeller Center, the Greek facades of your government buildings in Washington. I defy you to find any American city where the Olympians are not prominently displayed in multiple places. Like it or not – and believe me, plenty of people weren’t very fond of Rome, either – America is now the heart of the flame. It is the great power of the West. And so Olympus is here. And we are here.’

~The Lightning Thief: Chapter 5
People remember and reference the gods across every civilization
Granting them relevance
It's self evident because, well, they haven't faded yet. At least not all of them

No, this doesn't follow from the quote you've presented about Harpocrates. Let's read it more closely:

“That’s exactly what the Greeks thought. The gesture had nothing to do with shh. It symbolized the hieroglyph for child.
Nevertheless, the Greeks decided he must be the god of silence and secrets. They changed his name to Harpocrates. They built some shrines, started worshiping him, and boom, he’s a Greek-Egyptian hybrid god.”
Meg snorted. “It can’t be that easy to make a new god.”
“Never underestimate the power of thousands of human minds all believing the same thing. They can remake reality. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not.”

The thing to keep in mind from this passage is that Harpocrates changed because the Greeks' beliefs about him changed. If the Greeks had just believed that raising a finger to one's mouth meant silence without ever associating this with re-interpreting Harpocrates, he wouldn't have changed at all.

Humanity merely adjusting its beliefs about something doesn't automatically mean it'll re-interpret all of its ancient myths in this new light, and humanity's beliefs about the myths are what can warp reality to fit them. If humanity had started believing that the gods were genuinely manipulating scientific stars in their myths and adjusted their cultural understanding of them accordingly, then you would have a point, but they didn't, because anyone who understands Greek mythology believes that the stars were hung in the sky in the context of the myths and doesn't say "oh, humanity's beliefs about stars have changed, so I'll believe the new interpretation applied in these myths" any more than people who read books following the miasma theory of disease from before germ theory was discovered re-interpret the narrative of those stories as using germ theory after all.

In a nutshell, saying humanity adopting new beliefs about stars means the gods must be able to manipulate that new model is like saying that because humanity now believes we arose through evolution instead of Prometheus sculpting us, modern Prometheus must've gained the power to manipulate evolution; neither is correct because the gods only change when humanity changes their perception of the ancient stories, not when we merely adjust our scientific consensus.

Debunk 2: It's just an illusion. No stars were created or shown
Yeah….no
The Huntress has been shown to exist beyond the moment of the feat as at end of The Titan's Curse

~The Titan's Curse: Chapter 19


~The Battle of The Labyrinth: Chapter 12
Actually seen in the sky as part of the other "real stars"

I'm fine with conceding this, though it doesn't matter that much anyway.

Debunk 3: Even though the stars were real, she only brightened the stars not create them from scratch

This would be fine and all if this part didn't exist from Son of Neptune

~The Son of Neptune: Chapter 25
So no. She did create stars
Even if she did-.....more of that in the next tier

That's not what "dissolved into stars" means in this context.

Thalia lowered her head. Annabeth gulped down a sob, and her father put his hands on her shoulders. I watched as Artemis cupped her hand above Zoe's mouth and spoke a few words in Ancient Greek. A silvery wisp of smoke exhaled from Zoe's lips and was caught in the hand of the goddess. Zoe's body shimmered and disappeared.
Artemis stood, said a kind of blessing, breathed into her cupped hand and released the silver dust to the sky. It flew up, sparkling, and vanished. For a moment I didn't see anything different.
Then Annabeth gasped. Looking up in the sky, I saw that the stars were brighter now. They made a pattern I had never noticed before—a gleaming constellation that looked a lot like a girl's figure—a girl with a bow, running across the sky.

As you can see, Zoe's body dissolved into the stars - as in, dissolved into an essence that merged with the stars to change them - she didn't dissolve to become stars.

Debunk 4: Apollo's Sun Chariot. No explanation needed. That's a blatant contradiction

That's actually a very good point. But let's examine the evidence again.


~The Titan's Curse: Chapter 4
This was interpreted to mean that Apollo's Sun Chariot ≠ The one some 90 million km away from us. Which is pretty valid

Then there's also this

~The Hidden Oracle: Chapter 16
Used to prove that Apollo's control over the "Sun" is not equal to the aforementioned science Sun

This is quite tricky tbh but let's get into it
I'll like to provide another interpretation to the evidences provided
Each of the belief systems (including science) have control of the sun in a way

Pointing this out from the last scan
Many different belief systems powered the revolution of the planets and stars.

Apollo never said that the Supernatural doesn't apply to stars and planets. In fact, his statement implies the opposite as they power the revolution i.e the movement of the stars and planets
Not that the Supernatural is only manipulating what humans perceive them to be.

To add to this, Chiron also says this:

~The Lightning Thief: Chapter 5

This is further shown in the Kane Chronicles (multiple times too) when Ra's destruction would result in the destruction of the real sun


~The Throne of Fire: Chapter 21

~The Serpent's Shadow: Chapter 2

~The Red Pyramid: Chapter 27

"How come this doesn't apply to Apollo? He was stripped of his powers and nothing happened to the sun."
Two things
1. Apollo, although weakened, still had some of his godly essense left in him


~The Burning Maze: Chapter 16

2. Apollo also, while being the sun god doesn't have as much influence on it. As he has an array of sphere of influences (music, poetry, archery, oracles, healing) unlike his predecessor Helios. The Sun and Apollo are not interwoven the same way Ra or Helios are with it. The Sun getting destroyed won't automatically destroy Apollo. Vice versa


~The Burning Maze: Chapter 18

This also applies to his twin (Artemis/Diana) as she's also not a one trick pony unlike Selene with the moon

"Many different belief systems powered the revolution of the planets and stars" could just as easily mean that each belief system powers a different version of them, which makes far more sense than all of them maintaining control over scientific celestial bodies, as I explained above.

Concerning Ra's death destroying the sun: Carter's the one saying the first quote, and he's still relatively inexperienced at the time - he's a powerful fighter but not that well-versed in the technicalities of myth-science interaction, so it's unreliable. There's no reason the second and third quotes can't refer solely to the Egyptian sun. Now, one might respond to this by pointing out that the sun goes out in The Serpent's Shadow when Aphophis swallows Zia hosting Ra, but during that fight, Aphophis was breaking the Duat into multiple layers so he could divide and conquer the forces of Ma'at, so what Carter and Sadie were seeing was solely what the mythological world was like, meaning we can't glean anything about what a mortal who couldn't see through the Mist would have seen in that scenario.

There's also this
You know how I said I could agree with the ancient Greek creation debunk?
Well……..
Warning: This is quite long. Like half a chapter

It's the PoV of a satry from the modern times

~Camp Half-Blood Chronicles, Section 7, Part 1

First, this book is called Camp Half-Blood Confidential. Second, this guide on using the stars for guidance is heavily humorous, just like the rest of the book, and we seriously can't afford to upgrade the gods by unfathomable orders of magnitude based on this satyr's jokey contribution to this book for new campers meant to smoothen their introduction to a world of horrors where demigods die young at the hands of atrocious monsters.

Feat 1: Flashback to one of the debunks to the tier 4 feat
It being that Artemis simply brightened up already existing stars. I don't necessarily agree with that interpretation but brightening up a constellation is a tier 5 feat. It could get recalced to get an exact value. Given how the luminosity was sustained for at least 2 years, it could get much higher

As usual, every Olympian scales

Disagree for reasons previously explained about myth-science interaction.

Feat 2: Supernovas

There are multiple statements of supernova attributed to the gods when they show their true form
Such as this

~The Lost Hero: Chapter 50
And this

~Percy Jackson's Greek Gods: Hera Gets A Little Cuckoo
And this

~Camp Half-Blood Chronicles, Section 7, Part 1

I would not subscribe to interpret them going actual supernova but here's an alternative interpretation

We already know that the major attribute of the Gods true form is the light they emit which is deadly to nearly everything in the verse

I'd prefer to interpret the statement as the gods glowing as bright as supernovas
Rather than actual supernovas

And we actually see it get mentioned in The Last Olympian


~The Last Olympian: Chapter 9
"B-but hyperbole"
Well yeah, the Zeus's own uses like which would imply hyperbole but that's besides the point
Author intent also matter here.
RR has implied on more than one occasion that the God's true form has something to do with supernova
It's not just a one off statement

The God's true form is also something that's treated in canon to be something extremely deadly and forbidden
It's not that much of a stretch tbh

I asked what would be the potential yield of luminosity for the statement and the answer was in Yottatons (5-A) at the very least
Mind you, this is as a result of them just existing at their full power

If the gods were emitting 5-A levels of energy in their true forms, they would instantly disintegrate any non-divine creatures who came near them. The fact that regular humans can survive the light merely by closing their eyes means it's ridiculous to even try to scale the gods' true forms to supernovae in any capacity. It's just a hax ability where in their true forms, gods emit a light that deconstructs mortals into ash if they gaze directly upon it and is unquantifiable for AP.

 

[Testarossa002]

Alright
I'll respond to this

Might not post anytime soon

My forum is acting wonky for like a week now

 

[Testarossa002]

I'm currently away on a mini vacation
My response should be dropping by Sunday/Monday

 

[Testarossa002]

The thing to keep in mind from this passage is that Harpocrates changed because the Greeks' beliefs about him changed. If the Greeks had just believed that raising a finger to one's mouth meant silence without ever associating this with re-interpreting Harpocrates, he wouldn't have changed at all.

Humanity merely adjusting its beliefs about something doesn't automatically mean it'll re-interpret all of its ancient myths in this new light, and humanity's beliefs about the myths are what can warp reality to fit them. If humanity had started believing that the gods were genuinely manipulating scientific stars in their myths and adjusted their cultural understanding of them accordingly, then you would have a point, but they didn't, because anyone who understands Greek mythology believes that the stars were hung in the sky in the context of the myths and doesn't say "oh, humanity's beliefs about stars have changed, so I'll believe the new interpretation applied in these myths" any more than people who read books following the miasma theory of disease from before germ theory was discovered re-interpret the narrative of those stories as using germ theory after all.

I mean, that's my whole point
Human's belief about Harpy changed
Which brought about his own change
Point is, he still changed because of the beliefs surrounding him.
And it's not exactly an isolated incident.
Humanity's belief is basically what drives the gods
Lack of belief=their non-existence (Pan, Helios, Selene)
Change of belief=new abilities (roman pantheon, Apollo, Artemis)

In a nutshell, saying humanity adopting new beliefs about stars means the gods must be able to manipulate that new model is like saying that because humanity now believes we arose through evolution instead of Prometheus sculpting us, modern Prometheus must've gained the power to manipulate evolution; neither is correct because the gods only change when humanity changes their perception of the ancient stories, not when we merely adjust our scientific consensus.

This is a false equivalence
I'm not saying because of the beliefs of present day humanity, Modern Hera would get tier 3 for creating the milky way. I'm saying Modern Artemis would get tier 4 for creating stars in a timeline with current beliefs.
Prometheus with humanity is a non factor because he didn't create a human in modern times (I could have sworn I remember him trying to animate one but it failed but that's besides the point)

As you can see, Zoe's body dissolved into the stars - as in, dissolved into an essence that merged with the stars to change them - she didn't dissolve to become stars.

Dissolved into Stars means something completely different from Dissolved into the Stars which you turned it to.
The first means the matter dissolving turned into Stars
The latter means the matter dissolved into already existing stars
Percy's statement in SoN was pretty explicit

"Many different belief systems powered the revolution of the planets and stars" could just as easily mean that each belief system powers a different version of them, which makes far more sense than all of them maintaining control over scientific celestial bodies, as I explained above.

Again, you're missing a crucial part of the statement which throws the statement in a new light

Many different belief systems powered the revolution of the planets and stars

Not "revolutions of planets and stars"
"The" meaning a singular event
There's one star and smaller satellites
They all move in a single way (revolution)
The different aspects of reality (belief systems) power the way they move

Ra's Chariot or the Aztec guy's method all power (once again) the revolution

Concerning Ra's death destroying the sun: Carter's the one saying the first quote, and he's still relatively inexperienced at the time - he's a powerful fighter but not that well-versed in the technicalities of myth-science interaction, so it's unreliable. There's no reason the second and third quotes can't refer solely to the Egyptian sun.

Now, one might respond to this by pointing out that the sun goes out in The Serpent's Shadow when Aphophis swallows Zia hosting Ra, but during that fight, Aphophis was breaking the Duat into multiple layers so he could divide and conquer the forces of Ma'at, so what Carter and Sadie were seeing was solely what the mythological world was like, meaning we can't glean anything about what a mortal who couldn't see through the Mist would have seen in that scenario.

There's this:

The wrong side?” Menshikov asked. “Girl, you have no idea the powers that are in play. Five thousand years ago, Egyptian priests prophesied how the world would end. Ra would grow old and tired, and Apophis would swallow him and plunge the world into darkness. Chaos would rule forever. Now the time is here! You can’t stop it. You can only choose whether you’ll be destroyed, or whether you’ll bow to the power of Chaos and survive.”

And this:

Maybe that had been his plan all along. He’d let us wake Ra only partially so the sun god remained old and feeble. Then Menshikov would leave us trapped in the Duat while he used whatever evil magic he’d planned to free Apophis. When the dawn came, there would be no sunrise, no return of Ra. Instead Apophis would rise and destroy civilization. Our friends would have fought all night at Brooklyn House for nothing. Twenty-four hours from now, when we finally managed to leave the Duat, we’d find the world a dark, frozen wasteland, ruled by Chaos. Everything we cared about would be gone. Then Apophis could swallow Ra and complete his victory.

And this:

I had no reply, as I wasn’t sure what macramé was.
Walt raised his hands. “Neith, that’s great, but Apophis is rising tomorrow. He’ll swallow the sun, plunge the world into darkness, and let the whole earth crumble back into the Sea of Chaos.”
“I’ll be safe in my bunker,” Neith insisted. “If you can prove to me that you’re friend and not foe, maybe I’ll help you with Bes. Then you can join me in the bunker. I’ll teach you survival skills. We’ll eat rations and weave new clothes from the pockets of our enemies!”

And this:

His voice hummed with power. His robes turned from blue to bloodred. His eyes glowed, his pupils turning to reptilian slits. “Even now, my master destroys the old gods, sweeping away the foundations of your world. He will swallow the sun. All of you will die.”
Amos got to his feet. Red sand swirled around him, but I had no doubt who was in charge now.
His white robes shimmered with power. The leopard-skin cape of the Chief Lector gleamed on his shoulders. He held out his staff, and multicolored hieroglyphs filled the air.

Didn't drop all of them because I didn't think they were as explicit at the first 3
All from different characters

First, this book is called Camp Half-Blood Confidential. Second, this guide on using the stars for guidance is heavily humorous, just like the rest of the book, and we seriously can't afford to upgrade the gods by unfathomable orders of magnitude based on this satyr's jokey contribution to this book for new campers meant to smoothen their introduction to a world of horrors where demigods die young at the hands of atrocious monsters.

I don't agree with it being a joking contribution as that section was intended as a guides for demigods when they get lost (which happens). But that's fine anyways
As it is just a supporting evidence

Disagree for reasons previously explained about myth-science interaction.

Those reasons apply to if the interpretation is that the stars were created not when the interpretation is that she brightened up already existing stars. Unless if the point of your earlier explanation was that the gods can't interact with science aspect of nature. Which is a different can of worms.

If the gods were emitting 5-A levels of energy in their true forms, they would instantly disintegrate any non-divine creatures who came near them. The fact that regular humans can survive the light merely by closing their eyes means it's ridiculous to even try to scale the gods' true forms to supernovae in any capacity. It's just a hax ability where in their true forms, gods emit a light that deconstructs mortals into ash if they gaze directly upon it and is unquantifiable for AP.

I could argue that Kronos's form was going to passively burn through anything and the Olympians would scale (or downscale due to being 10x less potent) to him eventually but that's fine. Already gave them death hax for it in the previous thread

Are you fine with the tier 6 stuffs though?

---

That's all
You can respond to it but I can't guarantee a response.
We're the only ones debating this and I'd rather not have this delve into 2 pages.

There's already few active knowledgeable members with an even fewer amount of staffs.
Wouldn't want this to become too voluminous for evaluating staffs

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I have family affairs today, so I'll respond later.

Are you fine with the tier 6 stuffs though?

Yes.

 

[Testarossa002]

Noted

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I mean, that's my whole point
Human's belief about Harpy changed
Which brought about his own change
Point is, he still changed because of the beliefs surrounding him.
And it's not exactly an isolated incident.
Humanity's belief is basically what drives the gods
Lack of belief=their non-existence (Pan, Helios, Selene)
Change of belief=new abilities (roman pantheon, Apollo, Artemis)



This is a false equivalence
I'm not saying because of the beliefs of present day humanity, Modern Hera would get tier 3 for creating the milky way. I'm saying Modern Artemis would get tier 4 for creating stars in a timeline with current beliefs.
Prometheus with humanity is a non factor because he didn't create a human in modern times (I could have sworn I remember him trying to animate one but it failed but that's besides the point)

I fail to see how this addresses my point, which is that for the gods to gain the power to manipulate scientific stars, humanity would need to start believing that their feats of placing constellations in the sky meant that they were manipulating the scientific cosmos, as only humanity's beliefs directly about the gods can cause the gods to change. Humanity merely adopting the scientific consensus that stars are giant balls of plasma light-years away doesn't mean they've therefore reinterpreted the Greek myths as using this modern definition of stars, which would be necessary for the mythological world to change.

Dissolved into Stars means something completely different from Dissolved into the Stars which you turned it to.
The first means the matter dissolving turned into Stars
The latter means the matter dissolved into already existing stars
Percy's statement in SoN was pretty explicit

But not as explicit as Percy's narration in TTC that Artemis merely brightened the stars. Even if we take your reading of his statement from SoN as fact, which I don't necessarily agree with because it's a one-off thought Percy makes when he's amnesiac and his memories are slowly returning, making its accuracy dubious, the far more likely explanation is that Riordan simply forgot when writing this, and when there's a contradiction, the narration a character makes as they're witnessing an event is more reliable than a passing recollection of the event they make years later.

Again, you're missing a crucial part of the statement which throws the statement in a new light

Not "revolutions of planets and stars"
"The" meaning a singular event
There's one star and smaller satellites
They all move in a single way (revolution)
The different aspects of reality (belief systems) power the way they move

Ra's Chariot or the Aztec guy's method all power (once again) the revolution

These quibbles over the exact wording of this sentence, which Apollo thought when he had fallen to Earth as a human and thus can't perfectly access his divine knowledge, mind you, aren't going to override the explicit evidence we have that the mythological and scientific worlds operate separately from each other.

• Apollo, Artemis, Sol, Mani, Ra, and Tonatiuh's celestial vehicles all operate separately from their scientific counterparts.
• (An argument I made in the last thread you haven't addressed) The mist could hide Typhon and the gods as they fought across the US, but it didn't hide the volcanic eruptions and storm cells they caused. If Artemis had indeed manipulated scientific stars, the mist wouldn't hide them from humanity the way it hides the mythological representations from humans who fly higher than the sun and moon chariots, which would've caused mass confusion among astronomers, which no book even suggests happened.
• (An argument I haven't brought up before) If belief systems could truly influence the scientific cosmos, the universe would've sustained heavy damage already because the vast majority of belief systems humanity invented since the Holocene began have been forgotten and have thus faded, meaning they aren't around to do their part in powering the revolutions of the planets and stars anymore.

There's this:

And this:

And this:

And this:

Didn't drop all of them because I didn't think they were as explicit at the first 3
All from different characters

• Menshikov: No reason this can't solely refer to the Egyptian sun, as this comes from a prophecy made before science.
• Carter: Already addressed; unreliable about myth-science interaction.
• Walt: Same as Carter.

I don't agree with it being a joking contribution as that section was intended as a guides for demigods when they get lost (which happens). But that's fine anyways
As it is just a supporting evidence

The parts that contain advice about using the stars for guidance aren't jokes, but the FYI parts absolutely are.

 

[Testarossa002]

I fail to see how this addresses my point, which is that for the gods to gain the power to manipulate scientific stars, humanity would need to start believing that their feats of placing constellations in the sky meant that they were manipulating the scientific cosmos, as only humanity's beliefs directly about the gods can cause the gods to change. Humanity merely adopting the scientific consensus that stars are giant balls of plasma light-years away doesn't mean they've therefore reinterpreted the Greek myths as using this modern definition of stars, which would be necessary for the mythological world to change.

But not as explicit as Percy's narration in TTC that Artemis merely brightened the stars. Even if we take your reading of his statement from SoN as fact, which I don't necessarily agree with because it's a one-off thought Percy makes when he's amnesiac and his memories are slowly returning, making its accuracy dubious, the far more likely explanation is that Riordan simply forgot when writing this, and when there's a contradiction, the narration a character makes as they're witnessing an event is more reliable than a passing recollection of the event they make years later.

These quibbles over the exact wording of this sentence, which Apollo thought when he had fallen to Earth as a human and thus can't perfectly access his divine knowledge, mind you, aren't going to override the explicit evidence we have that the mythological and scientific worlds operate separately from each other.

• Apollo, Artemis, Sol, Mani, Ra, and Tonatiuh's celestial vehicles all operate separately from their scientific counterparts.
• (An argument I made in the last thread you haven't addressed) The mist could hide Typhon and the gods as they fought across the US, but it didn't hide the volcanic eruptions and storm cells they caused. If Artemis had indeed manipulated scientific stars, the mist wouldn't hide them from humanity the way it hides the mythological representations from humans who fly higher than the sun and moon chariots, which would've caused mass confusion among astronomers, which no book even suggests happened.
• (An argument I haven't brought up before) If belief systems could truly influence the scientific cosmos, the universe would've sustained heavy damage already because the vast majority of belief systems humanity invented since the Holocene began have been forgotten and have thus faded, meaning they aren't around to do their part in powering the revolutions of the planets and stars anymore.

• Menshikov: No reason this can't solely refer to the Egyptian sun, as this comes from a prophecy made before science.
• Carter: Already addressed; unreliable about myth-science interaction.
• Walt: Same as Carter.

The parts that contain advice about using the stars for guidance aren't jokes, but the FYI parts absolutely are.

I acknowledge your response
Could you tag some staffs to evaluate the thread?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@KingTempest @DMUA @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Zaratthustra @AnimesFreak2 @GraveDigger84
Here is what we've debated so far:

1. In the last thread, I successfully argued that since the mythological representations of celestial bodies are separate from their scientific counterparts, the Greek gods creating constellations doesn't scale to the energy needed to create scientific stars, as Greeks believed that the stars were little things hung on a dome-shaped sky.
2. In this thread, Testarossa002 argued that since the gods are shaped by the beliefs of humanity, then since modern humans believe that stars are giant balls of burning plasma, the modern Greek gods should've changed such that they can now manipulate scientific stars.
3. I replied that that's not how beliefs shaping reality works, as the gods are shaped by humanity's beliefs about what they can do, not just any random belief humanity has about the universe not related to them. This is evident from how humanity now believing that the sun and moon are a main-sequence star and a satellite 1/4th Earth's size, respectively, hasn't affected their mythological representations in Apollo and Artemis's celestial chariots. Thus, for the gods to change such that they can manipulate scientific stars, humanity would need to directly reinterpret the Greek myths as using scientific stars, which they haven't done.

There are some other arguments we've made, but they're all about minor supporting evidence.

 

[DMUA]

I replied that that's not how beliefs shaping reality works, as the gods are shaped by humanity's beliefs about what they can do, not just any random belief humanity has about the universe not related to them.

If they believe the gods can make constellations, and they have a belief about what stars are, I don't get why they'd be completely unrelated.

This is evident from how humanity now believing that the sun and moon are a main-sequence star and a satellite 1/4th Earth's size, respectively, hasn't affected their mythological representations in Apollo and Artemis's celestial chariots.

It is a chariot, granted, but it also explicitly would have just melted the planet with a slight slip up from someone else manning it. At the very least I remember a statement about how it was dangerous to go off course, shown by someone going slightly too low and accidentally melting an entire field of snow. I don't think the myths really associated the sun to extreme heat in the same way we do in the modern day (on account of in fact being a massive ball of plasma), so I don't think this helps your point either.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

If they believe the gods can make constellations, and they have a belief about what stars are, I don't get why they'd be completely unrelated.

Modern humans believe that stars are giant balls of plasma, but when they read the Greek myths, they still interpret the stars in the context of those stories as being little things hung on a dome, and humanity's beliefs about the myths are what matter here. Humanity would need to reinterpret the myths for the gods to be affected; merely adopting a new scientific consensus does nothing by itself.

It is a chariot, granted, but it also explicitly would have just melted the planet with a slight slip up from someone else manning it. At the very least I remember a statement about how it was dangerous to go off course, shown by someone going slightly too low and accidentally melting an entire field of snow. I don't think the myths really associated the sun to extreme heat in the same way we do in the modern day (on account of in fact being a massive ball of plasma), so I don't think this helps your point either.

They most definitely did associate the sun with heat. From the myth about Phaethon driving the sun chariot:

Then the uncontrollable Chariot with the Sun began to steer a too low course, hitting the earth and unleashing immense destruction, including the burning of the African continent and turning it into desert, making the Ethiopian people black-skinned, since they were burnt from the fire of the Sun, and even causing considerable damage to the river Nile.

 

[Testarossa002]

I think you're having a slight misunderstanding on what myths mean here

These are not stories made up to explain unexplainable scientific phenomenon in the context of the verse

These are events that actually occurred in the context of the verse

Poseidon creating Andromeda some 4000 years ago is not a myth
It's a canon event in the franchise

The reason why it can't be accepted as valid is because, like I said earlier, the gods are influenced by the believes of humans

Humans 4000 years ago believed that stars were just hung in the Earth's atmosphere, hence why creating a star then would just align with the "reality of humanity" of that period

Same cannot be said of present times for already explained reasons
Further supported by this statement from the first few chapters of the franchise

Metaphysical? But you were just talking about –’ ‘Ah, gods, plural, as in, great beings that control the forces of nature and human endeavours: the immortal gods of Olympus. That’s a
smaller matter.’ ‘Smaller!’ ‘Yes, quite. The gods we discussed in Latin class.’ ‘Zeus,’ I said. ‘Hera. Apollo. You mean them.’ And there it was again – distant thunder on a cloudless day.
‘Young man,’ said Mr D. ‘I would really be less casual about throwing those names around, if I were you.’ ‘But they’re stories,’ I said. ‘They’re – myths, to explain lightning and the seasons and stuff.
They’re what people believed before there was science.’ ‘Science!’ Mr D scoffed. ‘And tell me, Perseus Jackson –’ I flinched when he said my real name, which I never told anybody.
‘– what will people think of your “science” two thousand years from now?’ Mr D continued.
‘Hmm? They will call it primitive mumbo jumbo. That’s what. Oh, I love mortals – they have absolutely no sense of perspective. They think they’ve come so˜o˜o far. And have they, Chiron? Look at this boy and tell me.’ I wasn’t liking Mr D much, but there was something about the way he called me mortal, as if… he wasn’t. It was enough to put a lump in my throat, to suggest why Grover was dutifully minding his cards, chewing his soda can, and keeping his mouth shut.

Earth in ancient Greece probably just meant Greece and eastwards up to India
Same would apply to Gaea

That however cannot be said for modern times
Because the beliefs about earth had changed
Also, regarding this:

• Menshikov: No reason this can't solely refer to the Egyptian sun, as this comes from a prophecy made before science.
• Carter: Already addressed; unreliable about myth-science interaction.
• Walt: Same as Carter.

I find it a bit disingenuous to claim that 7+ statements from multiple characters about how Sun goes if Ra goes is false.
Even though some of them describe what exactly would happen if the real sun was to disappear.

This should be my last take on the whole tier 3/4 stuffs



I'd rather we get staffs to evaluate it

 

[AnonymousBlank]

On the gods being influenced by beliefs, may I just point out that the direct beliefs of people about the gods is not in fact the be all, end all of what makes them them? When people think of Zeus, they think buff, white haired man with a sick beard that wears a toga and carries a lightning bolt. What Zeus actually is in PJO is a black haired guy in a pinstriped suit that likes Chinese takeout and carries a bronze baton with lightning sticking out of both ends.

If they are that affected by how closely tied they are to the West despite very prolific beliefs and impressions in the public’s imagination, the stars and their ability to influence them is definitely not bound by what Greeks believed stars to be 3000 years ago.

 

[AnimesFreak2]

On the gods being influenced by beliefs, may I just point out that the direct beliefs of people about the gods is not in fact the be all, end all of what makes them them? When people think of Zeus, they think buff, white haired man with a sick beard that wears a toga and carries a lightning bolt. What Zeus actually is in PJO is a black haired guy in a pinstriped suit that likes Chinese takeout and carries a bronze baton with lightning sticking out of both ends.

If they are that affected by how closely tied they are to the West despite very prolific beliefs and impressions in the public’s imagination, the stars and their ability to influence them is definitely not bound by what Greeks believed stars to be 3000 years ago.

Bookmarking this

Nice argument

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'm a bit overwhelmed right now. I'll try to compose a response after a moment.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

The quotes for Tier 3 seem like hearsay, so hard disagree. The reasoning for Tiers 4 - 6 all seem quite solid, however.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Modern humans believe that stars are giant balls of plasma, but when they read the Greek myths, they still interpret the stars in the context of those stories as being little things hung on a dome, and humanity's beliefs about the myths are what matter here. Humanity would need to reinterpret the myths for the gods to be affected; merely adopting a new scientific consensus does nothing by itself.

I could see some people suspending their disbelief in such a manner, but especially if they know jack about Ancient Greek cosmology save for the basics of the Theogony there's bound to be people who'd still think "big ball of plasma" when they see stars mentioned in the myths.
In addition, iirc the Ancient Greek cosmos was considered infinite/unfathomable (hence its High 3-A rating on the wiki back before the irl Mythology "verse" got nuked for violating wiki rules about tiering religions), so those in the know would still likely think of the Ancient Greek cosmology as sufficiently vast enough to house actual stars.
Plus, if they're suspending their disbelief, they've still got the image of "unfathomably huge balls of plasma" tucked away in their mind as what they actually know to be true, and it's belief and perception that govern reality.
And regardless of whether someone reading the myths suspends their disbelief over the archaic views of the stars or not, the fact of the matter is that by the modern day the stars are very much massive balls of plasma in accordance with science, and the gods are existing in tandem with and manipulating them.

They most definitely did associate the sun with heat. From the myth about Phaethon driving the sun chariot:

Fair, good catch.

 

[Testarossa002]

Bump

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

Tier 4 seems fine here.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'm working on another response right now, and you can expect to see it anywhere from a few hours and a few days from now.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

oh shit we're still arguing about this lmao?

 

[Testarossa002]

oh shit we're still arguing about this lmao?

Nearing it's conclusion

At least I hope it is