Just an honest question. (DBS - Goku and Jiren)

[Blanked]

People really think Goku and Jiren are stronger than Beerus...

 

[PaChi2]

"Goku isn't 4th dimensional, so that's out." Lol. They destroy space time in a regular basis now, in base. Keep denying they dont have 4D power (not in universal scale).

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

It's implied they're equal or greater than Beerus.

 

[ZERO7772]

People really think Goku and Jiren are stronger than Beerus...

Hit as well~

 

[ZERO7772]

Universe level: Characters who can destroy all of the physical matter within an observable universe at full power. More specifically, usually via an explosion, omnidirectional energy blast, or a shockwave, that encompasses all of the stars and planets within a universe.
High Universe level: Characters who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power. Alternately 4-dimensional power that is shown as completely qualitatively superior to 3-Dimensional beings, but is less than universal in scale. Or that allows them to create large parts of a universal continuum. Take note that 4-D power should logically always be superior to countably infinite 3-D power, so characters within this tier are not necessarily comparable. Also take note that we consider most small-scale time-space abilities as hax, not as AP.

Jiren >or = (Current) Ultra Instinct Goku > 100% Beerus > (Current ToP) SSJB Goku

100% Beerus > SSJG Goku (BoG) + Unknown % Beerus > Universe 7

Goku isn't 4th dimensional, so that's out. How does shaking a void outside of normal space and time work? The void technically has its own separate space and time.

This is confusing...

By the way, can we add the new photos of SSJB KKx20 and Ultra Instinct Goku?

We should remove the all of KK from his profiles images and add it to his skills\ability, too many images for no reason

 

[Pikachu942]

As for Hit, I think he's probably going to improve to a point in the massive gap between Kaioken x20 and Ultra Instinct, and is definitely not going to reach GoD level.

 

[ZERO7772]

Dyspo is High 3-A

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Why us Dyspo high 3-A? Unless you're joking.

 

[ZERO7772]

He was kicking Hit around who can fight jiren head to head from the episode preview

 

[AKM sama]

I can agree to High 3-A Goku and Jiren. Though I don't think the GoDs should be upgraded right now. Because there might be some GoDs who might be weaker than them(Sidra was implied to be around Golden Frieza's level) and some GoDs might be stronger which we will know in the future.


However, the angels and GP can be upgraded.

 

[Pikachu942]

He was kicking Hit around who can fight jiren head to head from the episode preview

I think it's pretty obvious Hit is going to go through Self-Improvement during his fight with Jiren. Also, from the preview, Hit was getting slapped around and it takes all he can to get just one hit.

 

[ZERO7772]

There limit for his Self-Improvement no ? even if he power up trillion times when fighting jiren he will still be 3-A it's not enough to fight High 3-A so he have to be High 3-A fom the get go

 

[Blanked]

It's implied they're equal or greater than Beerus.

Never said. It's said full power Jiren has the power of a god of destruction, but it nowhere says how much power that is. Every god of destruction could be well above that level and every god of destruction has a different power lvl.

For the time being until an actual proof they are still not equal to Beerus at least Goku isn't for sure since Jiren was toying around with him in this form as well.

 

[Aeyu]

I encourage people to read the scans and posts above who don't understand the reasoning for High 3-A. Dyspo would NOT scale to High 3-A, only Jiren and Goku's Ultra Instinct would, along with the angels and possibly the GoDs.

 

[PaChi2]

There limit for his Self-Improvement no ? even if he power up trillion times when fighting jiren he will still be 3-A it's not enough to fight High 3-A so he have to be High 3-A fom the get go

Friendly reminder: High 3-A is also 4-D power in less-than-universal-but-noteworthy scale. We already know they have 4D power. Do the math.

 

[LordGinSama]

I'm fine with High 3-A Goku and Jiren and anyone that scales.

 

[Aeyu]

Never said. It's said full power Jiren has the power of a god of destruction, but it nowhere says how much power that is. Every god of destruction could be well above that level and every god of destruction has a different power lvl.

For the time being until an actual proof they are still not equal to Beerus at least Goku isn't for sure since Jiren was toying around with him in this form as well.

Whis blatantly stated that Jiren's power was equal or superior to a God of Destruction's. Additionally, the Mastery of Self-Movement is a technique not even said GoDs can easily master, with Whis saying Beerus had not mastered such a technique much earlier in the series. I think that that is a rational enough argument for saying they are superior to GoDs at this point. Add this to both Jiren and Goku affecting the entirety of an infinite realm, and you get a firm High 3-A rating.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I am completely fine with High 3-A Goku, Jiren, Hit?, and anyone else who scales.

 

[AKM sama]

As of now only Jiren and Goku have shaken the World of Void so I don't think Hit should be getting an upgrade unless he scales to them by self improvement or a plot induced boost in power. Currently High 3-A should only be given to Jiren, Goku, Angels and GP. We don't know which GoDs are stronger than Jiren and Goku right now, so let's wait before upgrading the Gods randomly, yes!

 

[Aeyu]

I agree with this ^ GoDs don't possess mastery of self-movement, which honestly puts Jiren and Goku above them at this point. Additionally, the narrator states that all the gods are afraid of Goku's Ultra Instinct form, that needs to be addressed.

 

[PaChi2]

I am completely fine with High 3-A Goku, Jiren, Hit?, and anyone else who scales.

Those three, Toppo, the angels and GoD are a given. And most likely Vegito, fusion zamasu and... Spirit... Sword... Trunks... wtf trunks.

 

[Aeyu]

Toppo definitely doesn't scale, and neither do Vegetto/Zamasu or Trunks. They never exhibited feats which make them equivalent to Goku/Jiren. Manga does not count. Additionally, I outlined why the GoDs do not necessarily scale either.

 

[Aeyu]

ONLY Goku and Jiren managed to affect the ENTIRETY of an infinite realm, which is what the High 3-A rating represents, as well as mastery over a technique that the GoDs hadn't mastered and being equal to or above (likely the latter, as the gods were stated to fear Goku's new form) their level in power.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Goku 3-A, High 3-A (shook the world of void in Ultra)

Jiren High 3-A (same as above)

God's At least 3-A, possibly High 3-A (same ballpark as jiren and Goku but to a lesser degree)

Angels High 3-A (above Goku and jiren)

Grand Priest At least High 3-A


Hit 3-A, possibly High 3-A (depending on how next week goes)


If we consider Suprememe kai's statements of Jiren being the most powerful opponent he's ever seen (despite being there when infinite zamasu happened) and Whis thinking he could take on infinite zamasu himself, bump anyone above Jiren, Goku and angels and above to Low 2-C.

 

[AKM sama]

I agree with this ^ GoDs don't possess mastery of self-movement, which honestly puts Jiren and Goku above them at this point. Additionally, the narrator states that all the gods are afraid of Goku's Ultra Instinct form, that needs to be addressed.

It's possible that the GoDs are just afraid/shocked at the fact that a ningen can master this technique out of the blue. It was said that this technique is even difficult for the GoDs to master which implies that there might be some GoDs who already mastered it.


IIRC, Whis said that even Beerus hasn't mastered this technique completely.

 

[Aeyu]

I agree with the first half. The second half won't likely factor in too much.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Just saying just in case,

 

[PaChi2]

Leave the revisions until the ToP ends. I thought this was a rule.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

>was

It was a rule, but considering the 3 or so massive revision threads?

It seems it was cut early.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

.... It is possible for them to scale to Zamasu though. The statement " He is stronger than anyone we have ever faced " comes from someone who firsthand witnessed the power of Infinite Zamasu and Merged Zamasu. I don't think Supreme Kai would exaggerate that much... If Jiren wasn't that big of a threat. Plus, if we follow the formula of " Every past threat is usurped by a even greater threat " , it wouldn't be that much. It has been consistent with this, and if he is more of a threat... This would make sense. Beerus and Whis' reaction to Jiren seem to suggest this as well.

Scaling them to the RoSaT is ... Weird, Matthew ? I'm surprised you're considering it.. Iam not against the upgrade, i'm all for it... If we can all come to a consensus . If you prove it has it's own separate time and space... That would be a really massive upgrade for... the entirety of DBS .

As of now, i agree with High 3-A for the Top-God Tiers in the ToP . Low 2-C ToP... Is only if Matthew and those supporting it can give enough evidence.

 

[PaChi2]

>was

It was a rule, but considering the 3 or so massive revision threads?

It seems it was cut early.

>Revisions threads.

Is this one of those, then?

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

It is now, considering even mods gave half the propositions in this thread an ok.

 

[ZERO7772]

I agree with this ^ GoDs don't possess mastery of self-movement, which honestly puts Jiren and Goku above them at this point. Additionally, the narrator states that all the gods are afraid of Goku's Ultra Instinct form, that needs to be addressed.

Honestly all Goku did was master his body movement and the spirit bomb was working as fuel for his power, aside from mastering his movement goku shouldn't have gotten new power up

How does this give Goku more raw power than the gods ?

 

[Giygas3]

I can't believe this might get accepted... I think I'll celebrate this if it does (Goku still gets stomp by most characters if this goes through )

@Zero Dragon ball is pretty weird, Jiren utterly stomped a Kkx20 SSB Goku, and was able to overwhelm the same Goku with just a glance from his eyes when Goku was trying to overwhelm him with the Spirit Bomb. So, if he didn't get a power up, I don't see how he stood that well against Jiren in that form.

 

[Ssr4vegito]

I am fine with high 3A Goku but low 2C also seems possible if Shin's statement includes Infinite Zamasu

 

[Antoniofer]

Mathematically speaking, there shouldn't be more than one High 3-A character: if someone is High 3-A (what its means infinite), no one shouldn't be above it (in the 3-D), anyone weaker should be 3-A at most; anyone that is stronger than High 3-A should step tier 2, since the only direct thing above infinite 3-D is 4-D. Futhermore, if someone is finite times stronger/weaker than someone else, then they can't be infinite in power.

Just clearing that up: can't made someone infinite stronger without making anyone else infinite weaker. Its the same way that we can't rate two characters tier 0.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

They both have a high 3-A feat, this is case of the writers knowing shit all about what they just did despite making it clear what they did.

 

[Ssr4vegito]

What if they both and all hakaishins are low 2C i mean we still have that statement from shin?

 

[Antoniofer]

^So does the author that made Superman lift infinity, is no difference. There can't be two beings with infinite force, and they can't be comparable: infinite = infinite is an indetermination.

 

[Dark649]

I disagree with the upgrade since people just want to upgrade them, they see a new form and some vague statements without anything being destroyed and then they want to upgrade them to an higher tier mainly via hype.