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Jujutsu Kaisen Downgrade

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PowerToScale said:
Here is my explanation. According to the most recent chapter, cursed Naoya can reach a peak speed of Mach 3 (supersonic+), making him supersonic in his cursed womb (immature) form. Maki also refers in this chapter that human Naoya reached the speed of sound. So, his speed can be distinguished clearly as:

Human Naoya: Speed of Sound

Cursed Womb: Supersonic

Complete Curse: Supersonic+

While this appears to be a good, it raises questions about discrepancies with other showings of the series and calculated feats, which has brought us to this point in the discussion about whether the to disregard or he author should take precedence over and ignore the discrepancies.

Feats:
So the first issue is feats, this one is the common one. Current feats have contradicted the Mach scaling.

Maki was able to respond and deflect a gunshot that was only a few inches away from her face in this case. Being quick enough, sweep it aside. This demonstrates Maki's ability to respond, move at Supersonic to High Hypersonic speeds, and deflect projectiles in the BoS. Her ability to respond and move at speeds faster than sound and Mach 3 is demonstrated by this early in the series.

Not only that, but early in the fight Maki reacts to and cuts bullets that are being fired at her from close range at supersonic speeds, even after correcting for correct bullet speeds in the other calculation (220-360 m/s). Additionally, there are previous instances in which she splits a bullet in two from quite close ranges and potentially avoids being hit (I say potentially because Mai could have missed, but it does have speed trails in the scene she moved and dodged it).

Fumihiko Takaba's jump into the path of an explosion to halt it, which resulted in speeds of High Hypersonic, is another accomplishment depicted in the series. This would increase the number of feats for above sound.

Another feat is Sukuna's (3 fingers) feat of blitzing Megumi resulting in supersonic+ speeds. This feat is important as this same Sukuna is what Toji speed is referred to be comparable if not faster than, which while still slower, Megumi on guard in Shibuya was able to still react and dodge to him. Showing Shibuya characters in at least in the supersonic+ ranges.

Yuji dodging Piercing Blood is another feat that showcases speeds greater than the sound. Piercing Blood is an attack that exceeds the speed of sound, while viz says reaches the speed of sound, it has been shown to be an incorrect translation, viz holds the status of butchering translation in the series. For the Piercing Blood there is a calculation placing it at Hypersonic+ reactions. The attack is regarded as "fast in the beginning" implying it to slow down after its been fired. However, there is no known rate of how fast it decelerates, which leads to only assumptions. Even if you assume it be half the speed of sound (171.5 m/s) or even 1/10 of sound (34.3 m/s) would still result in supersonic reactions from Yuji.

Yuji at the very beginning of the series reacts to a curse, resulting in subsonic speeds, only two times slower than Human Naoya's top speed.

There are also other feats such as Geto (Kenjaku) reacting and blocking to sniper fire and young Geto blocking bullets. Uraume reacts and blocks to Piercing Blood with it breaking the sound barrier inches from their face. I've haven't used attacks speeds like Hanami's Tree as they aren't characters reacting to them, although still showcase speed feats above sound. However, they haven't been calculated yet. There's also a casual Naoya reacting Piercing Blood.

Inconsistent Showings:
Inconsistent showings are showings that would be in consistent or contradictory, although it's excluding calculated feats. Throughout the series, from beginning to know there have been showings that contradict the idea of the Mach scaling that has recently come up. I'll be listing them and why they are inconsistent:

Juzo reacts to sound: In chapter 52, Juzo is able to react and fend off sound strikes from Yoshinobu Gakuganji, a sound-based attacker. Subsonic jjk speeds being viewed fast impressive are made inconsistent. Naoya's peak speed (sound) is made superior to all inconsistent a one off character reacted to sound earlier in the series.

Yuji reacting the Piercing Blood: Even at speeds of just 1 m/s, Yuji can still perceive the attacks at supersonic speed at the beginning. Since his perception is supersonic, Naoya perception blitzing Yuji while being casual, although his top speed is the speed of sound.

Kamo reacting to Naoya (Curse): One of the characters, Kamo, finds human Naoya's speed to be rather astounding. However, despite being blitzed by a supersonic cursed womb, Kamo responds and blocks Naoya (complete curse) without using his "red scales" until after the fact.

Sound characters aren't viewed as impressive: Sound characters aren't seen to be really amazing; this sort of relates to the earlier inconsistency with Juzo's reaction to them. The point of this argument is that characters (outside of Gojo) whose speeds are comparable to the top speeders are viewed as nothing exceptional and are demonstrated they can be reacted and blocked. It seems clear that Gege has forgotten how he previously wrote his characters.

Misc:
The first is Infinite Hakari's MHS achievement. This is in the miscellaneous category as in my opinion, only other god tiers that are equivalent to Infinite Hakari can scale to him. This would be yet another feat that conflicts with Mach 3 if you think Naoya is faster.

Another miscellaneous argument is that the author's treatment of powers is inconsistent. This argument really only rests on the author's lack of comprehension, as evidenced by the author's implementation of his 2.5^ increase in power via black flash and forgetting that it becomes obsolete if people have a power of one, as well as his inability to properly explain Gojo, necessitating editors' hiring of mathematicians to do so.

Gege plainly forgot past feats like bullet timing and reacting to piercing blood, as well as things like older characters reacting to sound. It is extremely evident that Gege just just had the idea of speed of sound scaling. Even if you think Mach scaling is accurate, it would be controversial to claim there aren't any contradictions. Even if I support feats and showings, the wiki needs to determine which is preferable.
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im a re link this
 
Well, I've seen enough, I've said my part. Whatever happens is up to staff and whatever compromises will have to be made, if any

May Arceus be with you all. Goodbye
 
The dudes are meant to be subsonic, but there's multiple instances of dudes reacting to literal sound? Among other concretely non debatable above sound things?

Ngl from everything I've seen, I think the author is just a ******* idiot and doesn't comprehend what any of this means, in terms of both the feats he draws as well as the statements he puts in. No offense to anyone, but this is like some "100 Ton" Marvel shit, for dudes who lift mountains or move planets daily.
 
I am neutral for now

I feel bad ignoring Gege's intention considering how much research she put into making the manga, so probably sooner or later more inconsistencies will appear

But I can still see the points for hypersonic speed. Ignoring 90% of the stuff from the fights is pretty silly and lazy. I mean, a simple fight movement that takes place in the anime (which had the help of Gege) reaches supersonic speed thanks to the short timeframe of like, 0.08 seconds
 
I’ve been neutral heavily leaning towards disagreement. But I really hate being the guy to arguing against what the author intended. It just feels like I’m exploiting consistent “flaws” against the narrative and I feel bad about it.

I also don’t want to argue against @KingTempest back to retirement again

So whatever happens, happens I guess.

unfollowing
 
Gitagon said:
Neither the author nor the animators are using a ruler nor counting pixels when drawing fight scenes.
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Mangakas and animators need to measure what they draw. They probably don't think in pixels, but in size, yes

And yes, they use a ruler. It is a tool for drawing
 
Gitagon said:
Neither the author nor the animators are using a ruler nor counting pixels when drawing fight scenes.
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So? You don't have to do either to know "dodge explosion point-blank is faster than sound", "dodging sound is faster than sound", "dodging lightning is faster than sound", "moving in extremely short timeframe long distances that come outs to over 300-400mps is faster than sound", etc.

Most people have basic spatial awareness skills and common comprehension. From what I've seen most of the feats are blatantly, impossibly, Mach. People who's livelihood is dependent on being able to keep a consistent grasp of distances, perspective, scale and knowing how to draw and animate would inherently know these things, better than most of us actually. Also good chance they actually do use a ruler or various tools to draw, and they probably do count pixels to a degree. They also have a bunch of design sheets with sizes, comparative scale between things, and more as with any modern anime.
 
I do think the angle that Gege is an idiot is both unneeded and unimportant to this discussion. It's not the Gege can't do math, it's just that Gege and most authors will choose not to do so, because it normally isn't important to their stories to know exact values in terms of speed or strength.

What's being argued here, at least from me, is that our wiki has a precedent of ignoring in-universe statements. Whether they be from a person or the text itself, if they don't measure up to our own math then we will dismiss them. I don't see why JJK is any exception to this.
 
Duedate8898 said:
What's being argued here, at least from me, is that our wiki has a precedent of ignoring in-universe statements. Whether they be from a person or the text itself, if they don't measure up to our own math then we will dismiss them. I don't see why JJK is any exception to this.
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i am not talking about this specific instance but there are intances where feats>statements like the aforementioned Garou feats or Godzilla consistently being way above tier 7 and yet having a 7-C statement
 
Dr._whiteee said:
Not really. The specific number derived from safe assumptions may be from fans but the content is still from the author. Hakari dodging lightning inches from his face is not going to net numbers close to supersonic in any reality remotely close to ours and Gege chose to display that level of speed.

Rubber bullets like the ones Maki used still got supersonic+ results and the one calculated was the real one she made with her cursed technique, which is why Maki comments on it. Mind you, Maki was was also casually slicing apart her bullets from close range throughout the whole fight and was only caught off-guard because of the real one being made from cursed energy and being her 7th shot. So either way you slice it, Gege clearly showed these levels of speed are literally something BoS Maki could achieve and has since been surpassed by higher tiers.
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It makes no sense to go against a clear feat. I agree with downgrade
 
Duedate8898 said:
I do think the angle that Gege is an idiot is both unneeded and unimportant to this discussion. It's not the Gege can't do math, it's just that Gege and most authors will choose not to do so, because it normally isn't important to their stories to know exact values in terms of speed or strength.

What's being argued here, at least from me, is that our wiki has a precedent of ignoring in-universe statements. Whether they be from a person or the text itself, if they don't measure up to our own math then we will dismiss them. I don't see why JJK is any exception to this.
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The issue is that we don't. We ignore inverse statements when inconsistent, and there's a plethora of proof to why they're inconsistent. Most of the time they're one off statements that the author pulled out their ass.

There is clear progression in speed that the author creates and consistently follows.


Arceus0x said:
i am not talking about this specific instance but there are intances where feats>statements like the aforementioned Garou feats or Godzilla consistently being way above tier 7 and yet having a 7-C statement
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"Can destroy a town" isn't a limiter.

You don't know the difference between lowballed statements and limiters.

On top of that, these are consistent. This isn't a one off "not faster than sound" statement.

An attack that's stated to move faster than sound makes a sonic boom. it's stated to get slower and it doesn't produce any more sonic booms. That isn't the author being stupid, that's the author having an intention
 
Dread said:
It makes no sense to go against a clear feat. I agree with downgrade
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Wouldn't you disagree with the downgrade if we're talking about actual FEATS? Not statements? The feats are what contradict the OP, they don't corroborate it.
KingTempest said:
The issue is that we don't. We ignore inverse statements when inconsistent, and there's a plethora of proof to why they're inconsistent. Most of the time they're one off statements that the author pulled out their ass.

There is clear progression in speed that the author creates and consistently follows.



"Can destroy a town" isn't a limiter.

You don't know the difference between lowballed statements and limiters.

On top of that, these are consistent. This isn't a one off "not faster than sound" statement.

An attack that's stated to move faster than sound makes a sonic boom. it's stated to get slower and it doesn't produce any more sonic booms. That isn't the author being stupid, that's the author having an intention
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Don't they literally dodge actual sound at one point? Along with explosions, lightning and more? At least that's what others have been saying.
 
KingTempest said:
"Can destroy a town" isn't a limiter.

You don't know the difference between lowballed statements and limiters.
Click to expand...
you don't seem to understand. Godzilla literally has a joule (or watt i don't remember) value written out in one of the statistics, saying his beam has a 75 kiloton output...despite the same movie which has Godzilla melt through the earth leaving a stadium sized hole nearly 6k kilometers long. To create the hole with a 75 kiloton output he'd need to stand there and shoot for over 22 days straight...the even happened in less than a minute. That and like a dozen other tier 7-A to High 6-C feats ensure that the statement is complete and utter BS.
 
but anyways this isn't about godzilla or anything, i will stay neutral regarding this thread and if everyone agrees to downgrade everyone then so be it, lightning speed isn't that consistent anyways.
 
KingTempest said:
The issue is that we don't. We ignore inverse statements when inconsistent, and there's a plethora of proof to why they're inconsistent. Most of the time they're one off statements that the author pulled out their ass.

There is clear progression in speed that the author creates and consistently follows.
Click to expand...
Tempest it seems like you very much are ignoring an entire post from PowerToScale which list out all the different feats, and situations that occurred early on to make these statements inconsistent with what's being shown. Gege does not consistently follow the speeds given.
KingTempest said:
On top of that, these are consistent. This isn't a one off "not faster than sound" statement.

An attack that's stated to move faster than sound makes a sonic boom. it's stated to get slower and it doesn't produce any more sonic booms. That isn't the author being stupid, that's the author having an intention
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It very much is a one-off not faster than sound statement in regards to the characters though. Piercing blood is only the speed of an attack, not of Choso or Yuji. So trying to use it as a limiter to the speed of the characters doesn't work since we're shown characters reacting to and defending against the techinque. Not to mention that, even with using the it slows down argument, as we're shown the slowdown seems to come when Choso uses the same piercing blood to attack again, since Yuji only makes the comment after he dodges Choso's follow up. Which is then further corroborated by the rest of his statement being, that as long as he dodges it, he can still get in close. Not to mention, we actually do see a burst from Piercing Blood which points towards it still being Mach speed when it's just going straight.

Damage3245 said:
If our calcs require assumptions, then they can't be taken as being as equally factual as a straightforward statement.
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But we will consider them more factual if there are multiple calcs and showings which go against the statement.
 
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Damage3245 said:
If our calcs require assumptions, then they can't be taken as being as equally factual as a straightforward statement.
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Agreed FRA. I have no clue why we are still viewing it. The feat has been shown against those calculations. Like the author can't make it clearer than that.
 
Damage3245 said:
If our calcs require assumptions, then they can't be taken as being as equally factual as a straightforward statement.
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By assumptions, do you mean things like detonation speed, bullet propagation, and the speed of lightning in the atmosphere? You've said this multiple times and have yet to substantiate anything, so just curious.
 
Duedate8898 said:
Tempest it seems like you very much are ignoring an entire post from PowerToScale which list out all the different feats, and situations that occurred early on to make these statements inconsistent with what's being shown. Gege does not consistently follow the speeds given.
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You mean the vague "he reacted" arguments? "He reacted, and it can't be that much slower".

"She cut bullets" ignores the fact that it's still in the air if the speed of the bullet she intercepted is valid.
"He dodged piercing blood's faster than sound movement and it's hypersonic" even though he called it fast. The calc makes him over 10x the speed of the projectile he dodged when he calls it fast.

There's context that's being ignored in his point. Read the chapters and look at the logic of the feat.
Duedate8898 said:
It very much is a one-off not faster than sound statement in regards to the characters though. Piercing blood is only the speed of an attack, not of Choso or Yuji. So trying to use it as a limiter to the speed of the characters doesn't work since we're shown characters reacting to and defending against the techinque. Not to mention that, even with using the it slows down argument, as we're shown the slowdown seems to come when Choso uses the same piercing blood to attack again, since Yuji only makes the comment after he dodges Choso's follow up. Which is then further corroborated by the rest of his statement being, that as long as he dodges it, he can still get in close. Not to mention, we actually do see a burst from Piercing Blood which points towards it still being Mach speed when it's just going straight.
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Piercing blood is the speed of an attack which was stated to be fast by Yuji, while when injured, he could keep up with an amped Choso just fine.

Yuji says "it's fast only when it's first fired". For an attack that's noted because it's faster than sound for a little bit, there is very much a large
Duedate8898 said:
But we will consider them more factual if there are multiple calcs and showings which go against the statement.
Click to expand...
You keep considering it a single statement. There are like 6.

it seems like you very much are ignoring an entire post from PowerToScale which list out all the different feats, and situations that occurred early on to make these statements inconsistent with what's being shown
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It seems like you very much are ignoring my entire post bringing up why the speed of sound isn't in the ballpark of these characters. Shit, I brought up more instances which were flat out ignored and took as "oh he's coping, go back to retirement".

KingTempest said:
Now when it comes to the consistency of their slow ass speed, I'm appalled by how you guys don't know your verse and you think that the calcs are more consistent.

  1. Hanami's buds couldn't travel a close distance in 0.01 seconds. That's not hypersonic.
  2. Naobito's Projection Sorcery of covering melee distances in 1/24 seconds. Next to Gojo, he's the fastest Jujutsu Sorcerer, which means every other Jujutsu Sorcerer is below him. He was blitzing Dagon, and stated to be possibly faster than Jogo. Consistent, they say "he's the fastest" while Gojo is sealed..
  3. Naoya's Cursed Technique lets him track movement at 1/24 seconds each. This means that his regular reactions are inferior. This means that his speed is inferior when he's shown to not cover large distances in those timeframes. Yuji calls him fast.
  4. Piercing Blood is canonically shown to be faster than sound by its sonic boom, then it progressively gets slower. Can conclude that it goes to below the speed of sound after its initial fire.
  5. His peak speed (it's his peak speed) is stated to be supersonic, and the context is implying that everything else he's done isn't supersonic.
  6. Naoya and Naobito's victim is frozen for 1 second if they don't move at a specific timeframe of 1/24 seconds. Maki doesn't even move that, and she's frozen. Naoya couldn't even cover that melee distance in a single second. It's consistent.
  7. They blatantly say he moves faster than the speed of sound, and they imply that they can't. "If he moves at the speed of sound, we'll prepare".
  8. He gets to Mach 3.
They are consistently not impressive in speed. So please stop with the narrative that they're consistently MHS
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For a hypersonic movement in the 1/24 seconds timeframe we get multiple times, you'd need to move 71.4583333333 meters for it to be hypersonic. These dudes barely move 1.
A person repeatedly being compared to sound and low end machs.
The timeframe of Hanami's attack.
Not a single thing here was countered.

And the counters was "well you're ignoring the feats".

Dr._whiteee said:
Not really.
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No, there is, people just fail to see it.
 
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