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It's funny
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Jujutsu Kaisen Downgrade
- Thread starter FanSyst
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- jujutsu kaisen maki zenin
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It was the latest author comments from this last chapter I think. You know how Weekly shonen has a little comment section from their authors?
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Damn yall can't argue. I needa come back for this, cause this is something I wanted implemented even far before this statement came out.
Exponents and attack potency do not work. The black flash counter is dogshit.
Tons^2 would be Squared Tons, while we only measure in regular tons. Same with Squared Joules and such.
It needs a specific unit that is used in the statement for it to be applicable, not just a squared statement.
Shit, the author only used squared because the number would be higher. He doesn't even know what he's talking about in itself. What if the yield is 1 ton like you guys said?
It'd be 1 squared ton, which we don't work with.
Black Flash doesn't work because we can't quantify it. You can't square energy unless you have a stagnant unit.
Now when it comes to the consistency of their slow ass speed, I'm appalled by how you guys don't know your verse and you think that the calcs are more consistent.
Exponents and attack potency do not work. The black flash counter is dogshit.
Tons^2 would be Squared Tons, while we only measure in regular tons. Same with Squared Joules and such.
It needs a specific unit that is used in the statement for it to be applicable, not just a squared statement.
Shit, the author only used squared because the number would be higher. He doesn't even know what he's talking about in itself. What if the yield is 1 ton like you guys said?
It'd be 1 squared ton, which we don't work with.
Black Flash doesn't work because we can't quantify it. You can't square energy unless you have a stagnant unit.
Now when it comes to the consistency of their slow ass speed, I'm appalled by how you guys don't know your verse and you think that the calcs are more consistent.
- Hanami's buds couldn't travel a close distance in 0.01 seconds. That's not hypersonic.
- Naobito's Projection Sorcery of covering melee distances in 1/24 seconds. Next to Gojo, he's the fastest Jujutsu Sorcerer, which means every other Jujutsu Sorcerer is below him. He was blitzing Dagon, and stated to be possibly faster than Jogo. Consistent, they say "he's the fastest" while Gojo is sealed..
- Naoya's Cursed Technique lets him track movement at 1/24 seconds each. This means that his regular reactions are inferior. This means that his speed is inferior when he's shown to not cover large distances in those timeframes. Yuji calls him fast.
- Piercing Blood is canonically shown to be faster than sound by its sonic boom, then it progressively gets slower. Can conclude that it goes to below the speed of sound after its initial fire.
- His peak speed (it's his peak speed) is stated to be supersonic, and the context is implying that everything else he's done isn't supersonic.
- Naoya and Naobito's victim is frozen for 1 second if they don't move at a specific timeframe of 1/24 seconds. Maki doesn't even move that, and she's frozen. Naoya couldn't even cover that melee distance in a single second. It's consistent.
- They blatantly say he moves faster than the speed of sound, and they imply that they can't. "If he moves at the speed of sound, we'll prepare".
- He gets to Mach 3.
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Go back to retirement, kt
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I can't retire in peace when people are bullshitting
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No one ever said they were consistently MHS. That was just one of the calcs brought up to disprove the notion that the verse is only around Subsonic to Supersonic.
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And then you decide to do more bullshit?
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GoonTempest
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Okay, I am neutral, but are we trying to debunks the opposition points?
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I haven’t read this post but it wasn’t even a counter,
It was just a way to cope for me.
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no need I read it
imagine using those examples for FTL characters
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Ok that should debunk any notion that "oh Gege doesn't know what they're talking about, so our calcs are better" then, since Gege is acknowledging that the jump from the insanity of Hakari's fight to characters getting blitzed by a few Mach is crazy. For that reason, I disagree with the sentiment that we should disregard Gege's shenanigans because "they don't know what they're talking about but our fan calcers do", rather they seem well aware of the seemingly extreme scope change between Hakari's fight and Maki's fight.
My apologies if this topic is already resolved, but I was reading a lot of "the author doesn't know what they're talking about" comments and I disagreed.
Also, regarding most of our fan calcs, they're blatantly predicated on assumptions for the most part that don't inherently have to be true (Mai's bullet speed sticking out like a sore thumb in that regard).
Furthermore, the narrative even with the lightning supports a relative to sound speed JJK verse. To quote Cyber's translated scan: "this attack is a bolt of lightning that rips through the atmosphere and never misses its mark, without the need for a domain expansion". Lightning narratively is so extremely fast that for all intents and purposes it functions as "instantaneous speed". This makes perfect sense in the context of characters being consistently ~speed of sound, as they would perceive lightning as ~instant considering it would be 1000s of times faster than what they are usually (consistent with what happened to Panda). Whereas if everyone was 10s to 100s of Mach, lightning would be fast sure, but it wouldn't be anywhere near fast enough to be considered "instant".
Personally, there is just too blatantly massive of a preponderance of evidence for vaguely subsonic to vaguely supersonic speeds in JJK as being impressive for us to ignore in favor of fan calcs. If it were just one statement or implication vs numerous feats it'd be one thing, but there are a plethora of ~sound speed is impressive statements and implications in this verse.
Was discussing this thread with some buddies and felt the need to vocalize my thoughts here. That being said, I'm gonna dip, best of luck with this CRT everyone.
PrinceofPein
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Tbh, this post should be the new OP, as the current one is way too blandDamn yall can't argue. I needa come back for this, cause this is something I wanted implemented even far before this statement came out.
Exponents and attack potency do not work. The black flash counter is dogshit.
Tons^2 would be Squared Tons, while we only measure in regular tons. Same with Squared Joules and such.
It needs a specific unit that is used in the statement for it to be applicable, not just a squared statement.
Shit, the author only used squared because the number would be higher. He doesn't even know what he's talking about in itself. What if the yield is 1 ton like you guys said?
It'd be 1 squared ton, which we don't work with.
Black Flash doesn't work because we can't quantify it. You can't square energy unless you have a stagnant unit.
Now when it comes to the consistency of their slow ass speed, I'm appalled by how you guys don't know your verse and you think that the calcs are more consistent.
They are consistently not impressive in speed. So please stop with the narrative that they're consistently MHS
- Hanami's buds couldn't travel a close distance in 0.01 seconds. That's not hypersonic.
- Naobito's Projection Sorcery of covering melee distances in 1/24 seconds. Next to Gojo, he's the fastest Jujutsu Sorcerer, which means every other Jujutsu Sorcerer is below him. He was blitzing Dagon, and stated to be possibly faster than Jogo. Consistent, they say "he's the fastest" while Gojo is sealed..
- Naoya's Cursed Technique lets him track movement at 1/24 seconds each. This means that his regular reactions are inferior. This means that his speed is inferior when he's shown to not cover large distances in those timeframes. Yuji calls him fast.
- Piercing Blood is canonically shown to be faster than sound by its sonic boom, then it progressively gets slower. Can conclude that it goes to below the speed of sound after its initial fire.
- His peak speed (it's his peak speed) is stated to be supersonic, and the context is implying that everything else he's done isn't supersonic.
- Naoya and Naobito's victim is frozen for 1 second if they don't move at a specific timeframe of 1/24 seconds. Maki doesn't even move that, and she's frozen. Naoya couldn't even cover that melee distance in a single second. It's consistent.
- They blatantly say he moves faster than the speed of sound, and they imply that they can't. "If he moves at the speed of sound, we'll prepare".
- He gets to Mach 3.
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I feel like there is a misunderstanding here. The push was never for them all to be MHS. It is that they are above the speed of sound. The MHS would only be for the god tiers.
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The author's comments mean nothing really. It's just referencing how the series has gone from things like Gojo's infinite to things like Mach speeds. Plus Gege having an idea of what he is doing with Mach speeds doesn't mean it's correct with the story when it has contradictions.
It's not just calculations that contradiction but other inconsistencies in the story. Such as people perceiving FTS attacks but then getting perception blitzed by slower-than-sound characters, or characters at the beginning of the series react to sound attacks when faster characters later get blitzed by sound. Its more than just calculations.
The lightning feat is performed by one of the god tiers in the verse who scales above the rest of the cast unless we go with Naoya being Mach 3 is above that character then it would be an inconsistency.
This would be correct, as MHS would be too fast for the characters as they would be supersonic to high hypersonic. They would perceive lightning as instant, not because they are slower than sound but because their feats are only supersonic to high hypersonic. And as aforementioned the feat would scale to only god tiers.
While there is evidence for Mach scaling, there are also contradictions between feats and earlier showings in the series.
Thank you for dropping by and leaving your opinion.
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Damn yall can't argue. I needa come back for this, cause this is something I wanted implemented even far before this statement came out.
Exponents and attack potency do not work. The black flash counter is dogshit.
Tons^2 would be Squared Tons, while we only measure in regular tons. Same with Squared Joules and such.
It needs a specific unit that is used in the statement for it to be applicable, not just a squared statement.
Shit, the author only used squared because the number would be higher. He doesn't even know what he's talking about in itself. What if the yield is 1 ton like you guys said?
It'd be 1 squared ton, which we don't work with.
Black Flash doesn't work because we can't quantify it. You can't square energy unless you have a stagnant unit.
Now when it comes to the consistency of their slow ass speed, I'm appalled by how you guys don't know your verse and you think that the calcs are more consistent.
They are consistently not impressive in speed. So please stop with the narrative that they're consistently MHS
- Hanami's buds couldn't travel a close distance in 0.01 seconds. That's not hypersonic.
- Naobito's Projection Sorcery of covering melee distances in 1/24 seconds. Next to Gojo, he's the fastest Jujutsu Sorcerer, which means every other Jujutsu Sorcerer is below him. He was blitzing Dagon, and stated to be possibly faster than Jogo. Consistent, they say "he's the fastest" while Gojo is sealed..
- Naoya's Cursed Technique lets him track movement at 1/24 seconds each. This means that his regular reactions are inferior. This means that his speed is inferior when he's shown to not cover large distances in those timeframes. Yuji calls him fast.
- Piercing Blood is canonically shown to be faster than sound by its sonic boom, then it progressively gets slower. Can conclude that it goes to below the speed of sound after its initial fire.
- His peak speed (it's his peak speed) is stated to be supersonic, and the context is implying that everything else he's done isn't supersonic.
- Naoya and Naobito's victim is frozen for 1 second if they don't move at a specific timeframe of 1/24 seconds. Maki doesn't even move that, and she's frozen. Naoya couldn't even cover that melee distance in a single second. It's consistent.
- They blatantly say he moves faster than the speed of sound, and they imply that they can't. "If he moves at the speed of sound, we'll prepare".
- He gets to Mach 3.
I'm not a knowledgeable member or a supporter of JJK, so take my opinion with a grain of salt I suppose, but I personally find KT and Arc's arguments to be very convincing. I think they're making a lot of sense.
It's really hard to supersede the author's intent with fan calcs when they are this consistent about it.
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I will be responding to you more in depth later but this is from the jump author side comments. I’m not really sure how you come to the conclusion yoj did after this post but this literally Gege acknowledging their mess up of the speed scale. I’m not sure how you derived a different conclusion here.
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Truly shows depending on what side someone is, people can come up with any explanation. To me it just seems he is acknowledging the difference in scale jumping from infinite Hakari CE in the previous fight to mach in the current fight.
Hakari's infinite CE didn't even have anything to do with speed and there has never been any mention of infinite speed in JJK so one just can't make the entire statement about the speed scale.
Also author comments in Jump get written in the same issue, basically chapter by chapter. It isn't something that comes out later so if Gege thought he messed up in the comments, the manga wouldn't have the mach speed in the same chapter. If this was next week's comment, that would make a bit of sense but it is the comment that accompanied this same chapter. It just shows that Gege is acknowledging the absurdity not that he made a literal mistake.
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I mean not really. He literally references the speed scale and, in the same quote, says "are you okay?" denoting that people are questioning the inconsistencies. He then proceeds to say, "I agree with you," which loosely translates to "yeah, I messed up, and your concerns are valid.
And your timeline quote is also incorrect. If Gege realized this later into the week after he already drafted and began finalizing everything, he can't just stop the presses and make edits. Do you know the time crunch mangaka is on? Why even make this statement if it wasn't relevant?
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How is it speed scale when there is no infinite speed in JJK? What am I missing here. Isn't the infinite part of the statement about Infinite CE Hakari since that was the last battle? I don't remember Hakari having infinite speed. Not even Gojo had infinite speed.
It is 100% obvious the "Infinite" has nothing to do with speed. The statement cannot be used to say Gege is purely talking about speed scale.
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Well welcome back, but you should probably brush some of the rust off.
Why did you attack this strawman so in depth? We already know why we can't use exponents with energy. The point is that Gege throws shit into the manga because it sounds cool and frequently realizes they made a mistake in explanation later (low level curse intangibility, Achilles and Tortoise explanation, black flash, etc).Exponents and attack potency do not work. The black flash counter is dogshit.
Tons^2 would be Squared Tons, while we only measure in regular tons. Same with Squared Joules and such.
It needs a specific unit that is used in the statement for it to be applicable, not just a squared statement.
Shit, the author only used squared because the number would be higher. He doesn't even know what he's talking about in itself. What if the yield is 1 ton like you guys said?
It'd be 1 squared ton, which we don't work with.
Black Flash doesn't work because we can't quantify it. You can't square energy unless you have a stagnant unit.
Yeah, no. That's not what consistent means.
This is literally the only valid example from this list and it's about a projectile attack. You can literally find these types of feats in any story. But let's just give you this one for now.
Literally all of these examples are invalid. The argument here is that Gege's use of sonic speed is coming from an ignorant standpoint and that the speed scale across the series has been consistently > supersonic from the beginning to current arc. You can't then use examples of Gege's flawed perception of sonic speed to prove your point. That's circular logic. You have to prove that these techniques being supersonic is consistent in the context of other speed feats contributing to the overall scale. Which I can assure you is not the case.
We've literally posted almost a dozen feats in this thread that cannot be < hypersonic/supersonic (lightning, explosion, bullets), and Gege admitting that he made a flaw in this thread.
So your counter example here is Hanami's projectiles?
also not sure why you're attacking this MHS strawman, as literally only top tiers have that for now and we stated there was one instance of this. For someone who started this out claiming "ya'll can't argue" I'd shape up and actually read what is being discussed first.
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Dude, what are you talking about? Infinite is clearly referencing speed or else the second comparative factor would not have been mach...While we can't confirm what he means by infinite, he's likely referencing the lightning technique which was described as can't miss.
But using basic grammar we understand that he is indeed talking about speed in the first quote.
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What? He is literally saying that he acknowledges the inconsistency...Hence the "are you okay" and "I agree with you" parts. I'm not sure what you read but certainly, nothing in the quote should make you reach the conclusion that Gege is doubling down on the mach speed.
You claim this but offer no backing evidence. Most of the "assumptions" that you're trying to drag simply come from the fictional reality constants being the same as ours. Are you saying that bullet propagation caused by a gun is different in JjK? Are the air physics different there? Are explosion physics different? Lightning physics? Please explain to me your point about these assumptions and how they are invalid.
This literally makes no sense is completely baseless conjecture. Humans aren't even close to subsonic and don't even see lightning as instant so let's stop talking for the author.
The point of the quote is to get a speed cap for most of the verse. No one we have seen as been able to truly dodge his lightning as even Panda's sister was blitzed (albeit also caught off guard). Regardless, Hakari was able to react two time to lightning being sent from < 5m away. If the JJK was around supersonic levels of speed then literally no one would even be able to perceive Hajime's attack, let alone react it as Hikari did twice. Hajime would do the somatic component for his attack and they'd see black.
Even with the dozen of other hypersonic feats littered throughout the manga, this would tell us that while top tiers can react to lightning, they can't fully escape the range of Hajime's attack. Thus they scale around that speed for reaction speed.
"We have to ignore what Gege drew on the panel as action events in favor of his narrative, which has been subject to scrutiny in the past. "
Not buying it.
It's two statements regarding the speed of two techniques (these two techniques also being paired together since Choso fought Noaya) vs 5-6x more feats over a much more consistent time frame. Please stop the misrepresentation.
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Just wanted to throw a penny in here and say that often author statements are very much unreliable and contradictory to themselves. The most prominent example i have seen is monsterverse godzilla. In GvK intro his atomic breath is placed at 75 kilotons per second. Problem is, that Godzilla:
-tanked castle bravo point blank (15 megatonnes)
-tanked a chixulub-esuqe meteor whose explosion was seen from space
-vaporized a 150x6mil meter hole in like a minute at worst
-fought and damaged fellers who can shatter tectonic plates
As you can see the authors in this case are dumb and don't know that you can't vaporize a hole through the earth and shatter tectonic plates in 30 seconds with the power of a few nukes.
If the speed feat calcs are more consistent than this little outlier then i am pretty sure calcs should take precedence.
-tanked castle bravo point blank (15 megatonnes)
-tanked a chixulub-esuqe meteor whose explosion was seen from space
-vaporized a 150x6mil meter hole in like a minute at worst
-fought and damaged fellers who can shatter tectonic plates
As you can see the authors in this case are dumb and don't know that you can't vaporize a hole through the earth and shatter tectonic plates in 30 seconds with the power of a few nukes.
If the speed feat calcs are more consistent than this little outlier then i am pretty sure calcs should take precedence.
PrinceofPein
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If the author consistently thinks their characters are not above sonic speed and literally knows what "speed of sound" is by their use of "mach" at least they know what it is and also the little comment about the speed.
Means they know what they are talking about and they are not ignorant.
And also all those calcs you guys keep talking about, there are lower versions of them that are just subsonic, transonic and supersonic.
So no, calcs are still filled with assumptions.
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I find it interesting that people have few issues with direct statements being potentially wrong, but the possibility that the author's drawing (of an explosion, or a distance a bullet travels) could be wrong instead rarely seems to come up.
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The drawing is literally what's happening on panel (and thus in verse) and when there are concerns, those are brought up in calcs.
I don't really understand the second part here. An author drawing an explosion means an explosion happened. It doesn't change the inherent quality of explosions, nor would it change the inherent speed of propagation for bullets. While all calls clearly have a margin for error the general scale of the conclusions is going to be consistent. None of this is really a problem in JjK. So why bring this up?
PrinceofPein
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And the statements are not "in-verse"?
In fact, when you say the author does not know what they are talking about, the same applies when I say "the author does not know the speed it will take to dodge an explosion and only drew it for art/plot sake"
Your assumptions are even greater in this instance as he sure knows what he is saying when he talked about speed of sound multiple times, but he may not know the speed in which explosions happen.
It does not mean the author knows the speed of such explosions this claims goes both ways, the only difference between both claim is that one is backed up by feat and author statement and the other is just fan calcs.
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Obviously they are but they are statements, not actual things happening in the JjK verse. If Gege has Sukuna blow up a planet at EoS and someone says "that blast was comparable to a nuke!" we aren't going to make the blast city level. The actual event taking place takes precedence unless it's an outlier.
What does "only drew it for the art/plot sake" mean?
If an author decides to draw a scene in which someone reacts to an explosion, then that is a concept they had in mind, regardless of their specific contextual knowledge of the scene. The specific interpretation of the specifics is completely separate and subject to scrutiny. If the author tries to claim the explosion was 50mph, and we see a regular explosion on screen, the author is wrong. I don't understand what is hard to grasp here.
Feats = events.
Statements = interpretations.
And we do have measures to safeguard feats from being inflationary or invalid. So stop acting like we don't.
Speed of sound is from two techniques, one for which the verbiage was "surpassed" the speed of sound. This being juxtaposed to a litany of feats spanning the whole series being > supersonic from characters who have no business even being remotely close to current Noaya or Maki.
Once again, feats > interpretations. Hikari reacted to lightning. That's a fact. Hikari reacted to an explosion. That's a fact. These things are on panels as events.
Someone saying "X reached mach 3" is an interpretation from the character and author. We are not going to pretend like a dozen feats don't exist because Gege made another mistake with his understanding of math and physics.
Especially when he's already come out to address this.
No, the difference is one is a statement subject to being wrong, and the other 12 examples are distinct events that happened in the series' timeline.
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You’d actually have to be pretty knowledgeable and of course with debaters of their caliber they would definitely sound convincing.
I have seen a few things wrong in KT’s argument at least, just going back to gather scans and get more info before I respond his first.
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Yeah because Gege didn’t also draw the feats that are calced,and blatantly admit his scaling is crazy, I forgot.
PrinceofPein
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This is clearly a very different scenario as
The statement from a narrator is different from a character in-verse, the character may very well be a 5 years old child or someone who knows nothing they are talking about and as much as I would hate to say this “it’s fiction nukes can be capable of anything the author wants”
If an author also says “this arrow moves at the ‘speed of sound’ and showed that character A was blitzed by that arrow”, this means that the author all intent and contextual knowledge of that scene is that character A is not as fast as the arrow. Even if the author had drawn character A dodging an explosion before.
The former feat has these
1. Author intent and knowledge
2. The feat itself which is character A unable to dodge the arrow
While the latter has
1. Just the feat
Obviously the author knows nothing about speed explosions travel.
Actually NO
If the author said the explosion is 50mph then that’s what it is.
Unless you wish to downgrade any verse where they use regular guns and bullets and they are above wall level and supersonic speed.
Also you will have to downgrade any verse where an FTL character throws a punch or moves and he does not create a black hole.
One time is an error, two times might be a mistake but three times is sure as hell enough for Gege statement about his characters’ speed to become valid(the law)
And there are more than three statements/feats
PrinceofPein
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Incorrect. If the author in question is comparing a planet nuking attack to a nuke that is comparable to the ones IRL, they are wrong. Not much else to say. That isn't to say the author can't have planet-level nukes in their fiction of course but those are two different scenarios.
No, if the character and people of his level have dodged explosions point blank before, then the arrow feat becomes an outlier. We literally have done this with several other verses recently such as the Flash and even One punch man, a series that is blatantly > sonic stuff, yet has characters who think that is somehow impressive.
Every feat has author intent. When Gege shows Hikari reacting to lightning (that they painstakingly made sure was acting as real lightning) the intent is to show he can perceive lightning. When Tadano intercepts an explosion before it can reach Megumi who was <5m away, the point is that Tadano is fast enough to do such.
Once again, feats are events that happen in the manga. We can call them outliers or lowballs, but they happened. Statements do not have this luxury and thus when inconsistent can be thrown out much easier.
The massive amount of speed evidence from the manga, and Gege's own admission show that sonic levels of speed are no where near the peak of reacitons/combat speed.
No it wouldn't or it wouldn't be an explosion by literal definition. Once again, the author would be wrong.
No? Where are you getting this from. And it's actually the opposite, based on YOUR logic, we have to downgrade a ton of verses that have incompatible statements of scalar quantities while ignoring feats, like the umpteen that have been listed in this thread.
And no, we already know the high end feats in fiction are not going to remain consistence across the board or else no LS characters could exist without setting off a destructive chain events by even moving 15 ft at that speed. This is a complete non-sequitur.
All of the statements surround two techniques that were given sound speed because of the interaction between Choso and Naoya.
This was preceded by several hypersonic feats.
This was followed by several hypersonic feats.
Gege has come out and recognized this discrepancy publicly and acknowledged the inconsistency.
So no, there is no law and we will continue to judge things based on the consistency of the verse. Which is no where near sonic level max for JjK
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What is **** waffling about.
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