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i actually talked to arc about that last night
we stand on Hakari, Kashimo, and potentially gojo scaling,
we stand on Hakari, Kashimo, and potentially gojo scaling,
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Jujutsu Kaisen Downgrade
- Thread starter FanSyst
- Start date
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- Tags
- jujutsu kaisen maki zenin
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This would make Naobito scale, which is a problem
Arkenis
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Gojo can get a likely rating I guess. Considering his speed statement is prior to Hakari's introduction and Kashimo being a sorcerer of the past Gojo has no direct scaling or implications of speed being that high but I feel Gege will remedy this in the coming chapters.
Arkenis
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Scale where? Show a feat of Naobito scaling to Naoya's mach 3 or Gojo
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naobito scaling to the lightning is a potential no. He doesnt scale to kashimo, as kashimo was dead while naobito was alive. He also has no proof scaling to hakari's DE bonus
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Infinite Hakari would. Base/regular would be lower
Arkenis
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yes ofc. Considering Base Hakari didn't try against Charles but kinda got hit and had to try after the precognition got activated he could scale higher too.
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on the other hand, whatever happened to the 15 finger sukuna travel speed calc
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How fast is the lightning feat, assuming the lightning is actually just an electrical discharge/current?
We have those at supersonic at a minimum, does the feat end up subsonic. Does that still contradict the alleged sub-low mach speeds or corroborate it?
We have those at supersonic at a minimum, does the feat end up subsonic. Does that still contradict the alleged sub-low mach speeds or corroborate it?
Arkenis
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it's mhs+ and it has nothing to do with Naoya unless Gege ends up showing us Naoya ~ Hakari or Kashimo. I've also calced the feat to be a slower speed of electricity aka Mach 1.6 and got Mach 6 for Hakari dodging which would put him 2x above Naoya
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So mach 6 then, gotcha. No matter how you slice it, it contradicts the intended speed escalation.
Arkenis
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no it doesn't??
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Naoya wouldn't scales to hakari's de buff. It is quite possibly the largest curse energy buff so far known in the entire series
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it does if the assumption is Naoya is faster than them. Which some believe
Arkenis
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dumb opinion. but we'll see how Gege handles this, if Naoya ends up being shown to be faster then the verse just becomes locked at mach 3
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Personally, God Tiers should scale above.
depends on the conclusion of this debate.if Naoya ends up being shown to be faster then the verse just becomes locked at mach 3
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Does VSBW consider author statements > fan calculations or the other way around? Is there an established standard on this?
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It's pretty sad to see that the opposing side's argument just boils down to "The Author is stupid" lmao
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It varies as it depends on WOG’s statements being contradicted or not by what was displayed and/or stated in the series. We have a page for that as well.
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No. It’s lightbimg as deacribed in the manga and per our lightning standards from the wiki. Thus we use lightning speed.
kashimo is also not a god tier, he is a top tier. So scaling goes to top tiers for reactions only.
Arkenis
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I never disagreed with the speed lol. And Kashimo is definitely a god tier rn, in speed and in his combat overall. And even if he's a top tier then Naoya is a mid tier in his cursed form.
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He’s not. Outside of his unknown cursed technique we have no way of outting him with the likes of 15F Sukuna and Gojo who are demonstrably >>> the likes of Hikari, Yuta, etc.
Sukuna literally fodderized Jogo casually, unless you think Kashimo can replicate that there is no standard for him being on that level.
Maki herself just got done slaughtering a whole clan and was compared to Toji who was capable of fodderizing Geto, who at the time was one of the strongest sorcerors, so Maki nayurally should be around current Yuta, Hikari, etc.
so it still breaks the scaling since naoya alive and as a curse gave her trouble.
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This is just to clarify we have a page on standards for statements in general. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Statements?so=search
Arkenis
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All your assumed scaling can be debunked within a couple chapters from Gege herself so what you say rn could literally not matter.
And the god tiers can have different levels of power within them, Kashimo doesn't need to fully scale to them at all, I'm mostly talking about speed and rn Kashimo has the greatest speed scaling compared to Sukuna and Gojo.
Yes I think Kashimo can destroy Jogo, considering how shitty Jogo's durability is I see no issue with that, same with Yuta, Hakari, Ryu, and Uro.
Maki's compared to Toji who beat a much weaker Geto who didn't have the curses he had in vol 0 so idk why Young Geto is impressive especially when the statement of him being the strongest is a self proclaimed statement and has no feats to back it. '
and sorry but Toji just isn't on the level of Yuta, Hakari, Kashimo, Ryu or Uro.
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No, we have established hierarchies based on feats. this is an argument from ignorance anyway, lest I could use this logic against anything. Until it happens it doesn't matter.
It doesn't change the fact that Gojo and company are still leagues above Kashimo. He's a top tier not a god tier.
Gojo and Sukuna upscale from Kashimo, as that's how upscaling works.
Then we'll have to agree to disagree because I see absolutely no evidence for this. Jogo's durability is also not bad, given that he literally survived point blank red and multiple hits from Gojo, in addition to surviving Sukuna's hits and being able to keep fighting.
Yuta needed low-mid effort to defeat the cockroach curse who isn't on Jogo's level and obviously, he beat Ryu and Uro. they are all top tiers, not god tiers.
Ok? Getou's curses aren't going to help his stats and he still had strong curses as we saw with his imaginary vengeful spirit.
Getou and Gojo were widely considered the best sorcerers at the time, hence why they were given the protection mission, and while not fully equal, Getou was one of the closest to Gojo at that point, who even as a child, put fear into Toji and the whole gammit of illegal sorcerers so much they all quit their day jobs.
So his portrayal/hype is certainly usable.
I mean, you can think that, but he clearly is given how he casually fodderized Dagon, Getou, and is the only person with a W > Gojo.
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Not yet
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His durability is far lower than Hanami's who got oneshot by Gojo's amplified Infinity.
His survivability is attributed to his nature as a curse who could regen from bad damage.
Sukuna was casual all through the fight with him and oneshot him when he felt like it, without his Signature CT
How did you come about this?
Ryu was defeated by his own blast and Uro was defeated by Ryu....
He obviously got much stronger as a sorcerer over time.
Gojo especially
Didn't he proceed to get fodderized by Gojo once they got out into Open space without a Star Plasma vessel to protect either?
He held a massive advantage against sorcerers due to ISOH too
Arkenis
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We have established hierarchies that get changed in a matter of a couple chapters, and what feats are you talking about?
You can not prove Gojo scales to Kashimo's speed or Hakari's speed at all with feats, your upscaling only works if there's prior scaling to support it otherwise you are blindly scaling them beyond what they've shown, let's not ignore the author like you want to do.
Red has no scaling to put it up to Kashimo or Hakari or Yuta. Gojo was clearly not trying againt Jogo, Sukuna's punches can't even kill Mahoraga but once he uses dismantle Jogo can not tank any of it. Can we not try scaling Jogo to Gojo and Sukuna
The cockroach would blitz Jogo and kill him with his weapon.
You have no way of scaling the lady curse at all. Yeah their portrayal is prior to the numerous of new curses that people scale to now, All you've done is scale Geto above nameless cursed users, Nanami, Naobito, Naoya and Yuki who's scaling is all below Hakari or Yuta.
bruh, did we read the same manga? Toji literally didn't think he could beat Gojo at his full stamina self, the star plasma religion didn't think Toji would win, Toji needed a curse technique nullifying cursed tool to beat Gojo, that thing you call a "W" is not a W my guy. Do you genuinely think Hakari and Yuta or Ryu, the guy with the greatest output of curse energy, could not destroy Dagon??
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sukuna and gojo scaling to kashimo and hakari is fine
No clue how others would would be justified to scale
No clue how others would would be justified to scale
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I can't really argue that (as hanami is tougher) but getting one shot at point blank by a serious Gojo isn't necessarily something that should be indicating Hanami (and Jogo by proxy) has bad durability.
That's true, I never said Jogo was Sukuna level though. I just said he was able to actually not get one shotted by Sukuna who was testing him. Sukuna even told Jogo that he was indeed strong, just not on his level.
I don't possibly see how Kashimo replicates this.
He was beat very hastily by Yuta who defeated him with pure physicals and RC energy. Even Yuji was able to somewhat keep up with Yuta and surprise him. the cockroach didn't really have anything but hax and some decent AOE.
Compared to Jogo who, when serious, casually annihilated high tier sorcerers (albeit damaged), took hits from Gojo, and was praised by Sukuna, I don't really see how one could posit the Roach is one the same level form what's been shown.
That doesn't really change the fact that Yuta beat them though. Out of the 3 it was pretty clear that while relatively on the same tier, Yuta was demonstrably the strongest.
I never stated they didn't. I stated that at the time those two were largely considered top tier sorcerers in the organization. Toji absolutely fodderized geto. If we saw someone absolutely humiliate someone like Nanami, then we would posit they are pretty high up the foodchain.
I mean not really? Toji was taken a back that Gojo was even alive after he "killed" him, and Gojo began the fight with red (which Toji had no knowledge of) which sent him flying and which Toji tanked. The moment Toji went to get serious Gojo pulled out Purple and erased his left torso. So Gojo's win was a lot more about his new techniques and mastery of infinity than Toji being fodderized.
I mean, that's a part of his skillset.
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The scaling should go to everyone on Hakari/Yuta scaling. Statements put Yuta and Hikari roughly equal. which would mean Kashimo, Hakari, Yuta, Uro, Ryo, Gojo, Sukuna, etc would get it. I'd also argue Maki should get it, but ya know, mach 3 and all of that. So I'd be willing to wait on her and see how she interacts with other characters.
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Is that statement also referring to the bonus given by his domain or just his base state
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It was stated that Yuta is second to Gojo in the hierarchy, and Yuta replied modestly that the place belonged to Hikari as he's troublesome to deal with when he's on a roll. The narration also placed Yuta as second behind Gojo though, so they are roughly equal so I see it as Yuta >= Hikari, the latter being able to be on par when maxing his domain.
Arkenis
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In unusual abilities not anything else.
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Tho is still going on? Seeing as there are multiple statements from the author about speed progressing from subsonic up to Mach 3 now I don't really see what the issue is.
This is similar to SoL haku in naruto. We're told he moves between his mirrors at SoL. Sasuke manages yo tag him a few times then later on can't even react to rock lee in the series so this was simply labeled as an outlier.
JJK is currently facing the same predicament here and we're trying to take fan calcs above multiple statements from the author.
Maki's hypersonic calc only got to that level because of two assumptions;
Yuuji struggles against piercing blood that is only above speed of sound when fired and needs to have distance or bait out the attack to have a 50/50 chance of blocking or dodging it.
Agree with the downgrade.
This is similar to SoL haku in naruto. We're told he moves between his mirrors at SoL. Sasuke manages yo tag him a few times then later on can't even react to rock lee in the series so this was simply labeled as an outlier.
JJK is currently facing the same predicament here and we're trying to take fan calcs above multiple statements from the author.
Maki's hypersonic calc only got to that level because of two assumptions;
- The bullet fired wasn't a rubber bullet.
- Maki only reacted to the bullet after it had almost reached her head.
Yuuji struggles against piercing blood that is only above speed of sound when fired and needs to have distance or bait out the attack to have a 50/50 chance of blocking or dodging it.
Agree with the downgrade.
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No? Yuta has well been established as second in JJ association behind Gojo.
Gojo specifically thought about Yuta and Hikari when thinking about strong sorcerers of the new generation that could reach him.
Noaya initially thought Gojo came to the battlefield upon Yuta's arrival and shared rank hype.
Todo implies Yuta is stronger than Hikari (although he may not know about his domain).
Has higher cursed energy pool than Gojo
Yuta believes he is capable of filling in Gojo's place alone in killing Kenjaku for 400 points.
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