Item Profile (The Hōgyoku)

[Deagonx]

I dunno where you're getting that from, the word very is defined as "To a very high degree" or "Precsiely" both of which would mean all of it.

The "too a very high degree" is for when it's placed it front of adjectives, for instance "it is very hot."

The "precisely" definition is what I said. Precision does not mean "all of it." The two concepts have literally no connection.

Again, it's just incredibly assumptitve to assert it's only affecting parts of it, and we already accept it as having uni range on Aizen's profile so .

It would be assumptive to assert it's affecting all of it without any evidence. So it should also be removed from Aizen's profile if there's nothing other than this scan.

 

[Damage3245]

DeagonX's point seems valid to me.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I dunno where you're getting that from, the word very is defined as "To a very high degree" or "Precsiely" both of which would mean all of it.

Not all the time, there are many characters who can affect the very world itself but this can very in scale.

Again, it's just incredibly assumptitve to assert it's only affecting parts of it, and we already accept it as having uni range on Aizen's profile so .

Just because it's accepted on his profile doesn't mean people can't disagree with it. That's not an argument. You've made your stance clear though. So it depends on if enough staff/knowledgeable members agree with your stance.

I can call other staff to evaluate it if you want?

 

[Arcker123]

The "too a very high degree" is for when it's placed it front of adjectives, for instance "it is very hot."

The "precisely" definition is what I said. Precision does not mean "all of it." The two concepts have literally no connection.

Something being to an exact degree would mean it's totality, otherwise it wouldn't be exact, it'd just be partial.

Exact: exhibiting or marked by strict, particular, and complete accordance with fact or a standard

I did not want to Semantic goon today.

It would be assumptive to assert it's affecting all of it without any evidence. So it should also be removed from Aizen's profile if there's nothing other than this scan.

The evidence is the scan itself .

Otherwise, the interpretation it doesn't affect the whole world is just inconsistent with the wording of the scan.

 

[Arcker123]

Not all the time, there are many characters who can affect the very world itself but this can very in scale.

That can be true but that has no bearing on the argument on this case specifically.

Just because it's accepted on his profile doesn't mean people can't disagree with it. That's not an argument.

I'm not saying that, I can use accepted things as precedence.

 

[Deagonx]

Something being to an exact degree would mean it's totality, otherwise it wouldn't be exact, it'd just be partial.

No it doesn't. Sorry, but this is completely imaginary. Exact and partial are not antonyms, these are two different concepts entirety. Precision and totality are not related words.

Exact: exhibiting or marked by strict, particular, and complete accordance with fact or a standard

"Complete accordance with a standard" is not an endorsement of interpreting it as "the entire object."

Otherwise, the interpretation it doesn't affect the whole world is just inconsistent with the wording of the scan.

It isn't, because nothing in the scan implies that. The word "very" certainly does not, as the links you've provided have demonstrated.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

How did this thread go from an upgrade to downgrade?

 

[Arcker123]

No it doesn't. Sorry, but this is completely imaginary. Exact and partial are not antonyms, these are two different concepts entirety. Precision and totality are not related words.

The definition on very uses Exact as a synonym so I can appeal to it. The dictionary uses them synonomously, so that isn't a defeater.

"Complete accordance with a standard" is not an endorsement of interpreting it as "the entire object."

You're cutting out the "or fact" that I was actually arguing.

Partial and complete are contradictory terms. The fact the word Very is used means it can't be partial. Something can't be exact and partial.

It isn't, because nothing in the scan implies that. The word "very" certainly does not, as the links you've provided have demonstrated.

The word Very just mean's exact, and that entails totality.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

How did this thread go from an upgrade to downgrade?

This thread isn’t upgrading or downgrading anything… it was for the Hogyoku profile creation

 

[Deagonx]

How did this thread go from an upgrade to downgrade?

It's neither. This item does not have a pre-existing profile, as far as I know.

The definition on very uses Exact as a synonym so I can appeal to it. The dictionary uses them synonomously, so that isn't a defeater.
You're cutting out the "or fact" that I was actually arguing.

Partial and complete are contradictory terms. The fact the word Very is used means it can't be partial. Something can't be exact and partial.
The word Very just mean's exact, and that entails totality.

Switching your focus from "very" to "exact" does not help you here, because "exact" is not a synonym for "total." You aren't any closer to your goal of establishing this, you are just misinterpreting a different word now. "Exact" and "partial" are not antonymic and the dictionary does not treat them that way, you saw the word "complete" in the definition of the word and took it out of context (which was "in complete accordance with standards") and pretended that made them synonyms.

But you cannot simply extract any adjective from a definition and say it's synonymous to the word itself, that's... entirely nonsensical. By that metric we could take this definition from the same page you linked:
marked by thorough consideration or minute measurement of small factual details
And conclude that "exact" is a synonym for "minute" "thorough" and "small."

But that would be nonsense, so we can't do that. You cannot remove the adjective from the noun that comes after it in a definition and say it's synonymous to the word being defined.

 

[KingogKings777]

It would be assumptive to assert it's affecting all of it without any evidence. So it should also be removed from Aizen's profile if there's nothing other than this scan.

Stay on topic everyone and if there's something you want removed from a profile make a CRT for it thats all.

 

[Arcker123]

Switching your focus from "very" to "exact" does not help you here, because "exact" is not a synonym for "total." You aren't any closer to your goal of establishing this, you are just misinterpreting a different word now. "Exact" and "partial" are not antonymic and the dictionary does not treat them that way, you saw the word "complete" in the definition of the word and took it out of context (which was "in complete accordance with standards") and pretended that made them synonyms.

I'm using the word exact here because that's the definition of very.

I'm not taking shit out of context. You're the one cutting the "with fact" part that was my entire argument. Don't accuse me of the dishonesty you're employing.

Also, yes, Exact means complete accordance, which is entirely contradictory to partial accordance. There's no way you think something can be complete and partial at the same time.

But you cannot simply extract any adjective from a definition and say it's synonymous to the word itself, that's... entirely nonsensical. By that metric we could take this definition from the same page you linked:
marked by thorough consideration or minute measurement of small factual details
And conclude that "exact" is a synonym for "minute" "thorough" and "small."

But that would be nonsense, so we can't do that. You cannot remove the adjective from the noun that comes after it in a definition and say it's synonymous to the word being defined.

That definition obviously doesn't apply here, as time isn't in the context. You can entirely deduce which definition for a word makes sense in a given context, and I never did any of this nonsense about removing an adjective from a noun.

I have not done any

 

[KingNanaya]

I find myself agreeing more with arcker

 

[Deagonx]

I'm using the word exact here because that's the definition of very.

Sure, that much is clear, but you are attempting to argue that "very/exact" are synonymous with "entire" or "total" which is just blatantly not true and unsupported by anything you've provided this far. If they are actually synonyms it should be trivial to find a thesaurus or dictionary that lists them as such.

Also, yes, Exact means complete accordance, which is entirely contradictory to partial accordance

We aren't talking about "accordance with a rule." The usage of the word "very" in the phrase "the very world" clearly does not mean "complete accordance with a rule."

I'll be waiting for that thesaurus entry. It is bizarre that your entire argument hinges on not knowing the meaning of a word in a scan.

 

[KingNanaya]

We aren't talking about "accordance with a rule." The usage of the word "very" in the phrase "the very world" clearly does not mean "complete accordance with a rule."

Forgot fact again btw. Don't worry big bro, I got you

 

[Deagonx]

Forgot fact again btw. Don't worry big bro, I got you

Are you pointing this out in order to argue that the phrase "very" in "the very world" means "complete accordance with a fact?" Because if so, that gets you no closer to the interpretation "entire world" which is what the tier is depending upon, and isn't in any way supported by the language in the scan.

 

[Excellence616]

'''The Very World'' varies depending on the the contexts and verse.
The Very World can be an entire planet, universe or Multiverse.

The Hōgyoku, '''the Very'' World means the entire Bleach Cosmology. if you really knowledgeable about Bleach and the power of the Hōgyoku, you will know that Characters like Orihime and Chad where affect by the Hōgyoku despite not being in same realm with the Hōgyoku.

Almost every event that has happened from the Hōgyoku creation to the Battle of Aizen where all as a result of the Hōgyoku along with evolving it's Master to Soul King level.

The Bleach has 3 different realms and the Entire Cosmology is already accepted as Low 2-C.

 

[Deagonx]

'''The Very World'' varies depending on the the contexts and verse.
The Very World can be an entire planet, universe or Multiverse.

The Hōgyoku, '''the Very'' World means the entire Bleach Cosmology.

I am not contesting that the word "world" refers to the cosmology. I am contesting the notion that "altering the world" means "altering the entire world" without feats or statements to suggest that. If something is "affecting the planet" that does not make it planetary, and if we changed the wording to "affecting the very planet" that wouldn't get us any closer to assuming it's planetary, as the word "very" is just for emphasis, it does not tell limit us to thinking it is affecting the planet in a way that would get us to a planetary AP.

 

[Arcker123]

Sure, that much is clear, but you are attempting to argue that "very/exact" are synonymous with "entire" or "total" which is just blatantly not true and unsupported by anything you've provided this far. If they are actually synonyms it should be trivial to find a thesaurus or dictionary that lists them as such.

You don't seem to be following the argument. The definition of Exact entails it's in accordance with it's entirerty, because it's in accordance with something completely, which isn't compatiable with it doing such partially. You are not responding to that, and are just repeating the claim.

We aren't talking about "accordance with a rule." The usage of the word "very" in the phrase "the very world" clearly does not mean "complete accordance with a rule."

Nobody said that.

We said in accordance to a fact. Stop cherrypicking the definition so you can strawman.

I'll be waiting for that thesaurus entry. It is bizarre that your entire argument hinges on not knowing the meaning of a word in a scan.

I'm not using synonyms dude. I'm using the meaning of the definiton of the term.

Don't ever accuse me of not knowing the meaning when you are lying to everyone about the definition and the argument being employed.

Are you pointing this out in order to argue that the phrase "very" in "the very world" means "complete accordance with a fact?" Because if so, that gets you no closer to the interpretation "entire world" which is what the tier is depending upon, and isn't in any way supported by the language in the scan.

If it's in affeciting the world in complete accordance then it's affecting the entirety of it.

You can't partially and completely be in accordance. That's what you're not following.

 

[Damage3245]

The Hōgyoku, '''the Very'' World means the entire Bleach Cosmology. if you really knowledgeable about Bleach and the power of the Hōgyoku, you will know that Characters like Orihime and Chad where affect by the Hōgyoku despite not being in same realm with the Hōgyoku.

What do you mean not in the same realm?

 

[Deagonx]

You don't seem to be following the argument. The definition of Exact entails it's in accordance with it's entirerty, because it's in accordance with something completely, which isn't compatiable with it doing such partially. You are not responding to that, and are just repeating the claim.

This is incoherent. Do you know what the word "accordance" means? The fact that exact can mean "in complete accordance with a standard" does not support your argument, unless you are arguing that the word "very" can be replaced with it, which would leave us with "the world which is in complete accordance with a standard" which is similarly nonsensical.

You saw the word "complete" in the definition, without regard for its context, and are now doggedly committing to that word being synonymous for no rational reason, despite the fact that your same logic for saying it's synonymous with "complete" could be used to assert it being synonymous with the word "small."

Nobody said that.

We said in accordance to a fact. Stop cherrypicking the definition so you can strawman.
I'm not using synonyms dude. I'm using the meaning of the definiton of the term.

Don't ever accuse me of not knowing the meaning when you are lying to everyone about the definition and the argument being employed.

Sorry, so your argument is that the word "very" in this instance means "in complete accordance with a fact?" So it's "alter the world that is in complete accordance with a fact?" That's also nonsense.

You can't partially and completely be in accordance. That's what you're not following.

We are not discussing the world's "accordance to a fact." This is nonsensical babble born of a transparent attempt to squeeze an upgrade out of a scan that contains no wording sufficient to justify the upgrade.

Your argument hinges upon misunderstanding two very simple words that are not synonyms.

I'm not using synonyms dude. I'm using the meaning of the definiton of the term.

Yes you are? You are using the fact that "very" is a synonym for "exact" and are now arguing based off of a segment of one of the definitions for "exact" you found because it contains the word "complete" and are thus arguing that "exact" is a synonym for "complete" so that you can argue the phrase in the scan can be read as "alter the entire world" because "complete" and "entire" are synonyms.

It's bad synonyms all the way down.

 

[Excellence616]

I am not contesting that the word "world" refers to the cosmology. I am contesting the notion that "altering the world" means "altering the entire world" without feats or statements to suggest that. If something is "affecting the planet" that does not make it planetary, and if we changed the wording to "affecting the very planet" that wouldn't get us any closer to assuming it's planetary, as the word "very" is just for emphasis, it does not tell limit us to thinking it is affecting the planet in a way that would get us to a planetary AP.

1) Like i said, it varies depending on the verse and context.
2) without feats? THE VERY SCAN IT SELF SHOW US THE PEOPLE THE HŌGYOKU HAS AFFECTED IN THE PAST via a little bit of Flashbacks.

What do you mean not in the same realm?

Orihime and Chad are in the World Of The Living. Hōgyoku was in Soul Society with Aizen.

 

[Damage3245]

Orihime and Chad are in the World Of The Living. Hōgyoku was in Soul Society with Aizen.

Didn't the Hogyoku awakens their abilities before Aizen took it in the Soul Society? Back when it was implanted in Rukia?

 

[Naeblis495]

Chad and Orihime got affected by Urahara's incomplete hogyoku he hid inside Rukia. This hogyoku then got fed to Aizen's incomplete hogyoku to create a complete one after the SS arc.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

The Hogyoku may not necessarily have done this. Aizen may possibly live over 20,000 years anyway on his own. (And it isn't stated anyway that Aizen definitely would live to the end of his sentence; the 20,000 years is just the sentence they gave him).

20,000 years is insanely longer than anyone else in the series. Also it’s in the context of the Hogyoku’s immortality

Yamamoto’s lifespan would’ve been less than several thousand years so it’s very unlikely

 

[Deagonx]

I'm not sure why a 20,000 year sentence is being assumed to have any correlation to Aizens life span. That's not even the longest prison sentence given in the United States to real people.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Idk why they gave Aizen a finite sentence anyway given he's immortal post Hogyoku evolutions

 

[KingNanaya]

Idk why they gave Aizen a finite sentence anyway given he's immortal post Hogyoku evolutions

Because 20,000 sounds cooler

 

[KingNanaya]

I'm not sure why a 20,000 year sentence is being assumed to have any correlation to Aizens life span. That's not even the longest prison sentence given in the United States to real people.

I beg your pardon?

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

I'm not sure why a 20,000 year sentence is being assumed to have any correlation to Aizens life span. That's not even the longest prison sentence given in the United States to real people.

Ah yes, the immortal Aizen. Can regenerate from being erased or from being turned to dust, yet he can’t survive his 20,000 year sentence and he’d die of old age like any normal shinigami.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Ah yes, the immortal Aizen. Can regenerate from being erased or from being turned to dust, yet he can’t survive his 20,000 year sentence and he’d die of old age like any normal shinigami.

That's why we divide type 1 immortality from type 3 immortality. Because one has nothing to do with the other.

 

[Bastolan27]

When the soul king and world are in the same paragraph, they talk about creation. On the same page, it says that becoming the soul king would allow them to reshape the world; again, when talking about the soul king, we are talking about creation, not a single realm.
when talking about the soul king in the same paragraph and without clarifying which world (WoL, SS, HM), Then it's talking about the cosmology as a whole. And the other evidence is that it can make you into the soul king who has Low 2-C in his profile.

 

[Sasukesama0492]

I agree

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

That's why we divide type 1 immortality from type 3 immortality. Because one has nothing to do with the other.

You can't have type 3 immortality without type 1 immortality...

 

[Phsccarvalho]

You can't have type 3 immortality without type 1 immortality...

Yes you can. Nothing on the immortality page says that type 3 is related to type 1, and one of the examples of type 3, Ji Ning has type 3 immortality without having type 1 (up to his third key). So I don't know where you got this information from. So yes, a character can regenerate from their erased body, soul, concept, etc. and still die of old age.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

To be that guy... Ngl the only person who like actively uses the Hogyoku in a meaningful vs match applicable way is Aizen. Idk why it needs its own profile.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

To be that guy... Ngl the only person who like actively uses the Hogyoku in a meaningful vs match applicable way is Aizen. Idk why it needs its own profile.

Ngl, really good point.

 

[Excellence616]

Ngl, really good point.

Do you agree with the profile?

 

[Excellence616]

To be that guy... Ngl the only person who like actively uses the Hogyoku in a meaningful vs match applicable way is Aizen. Idk why it needs its own profile.

It think the profile will be helpful in so many ways and as the most powerful item in Bleach, it needs one

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Do you agree with the profile?

Well, I'm inclined to agree with Arc's point that the profile seems unnecessary, but the proposed profile seems largely fine to me as far as its contents are concerned.

The concerns regarding the Hogyoku's range seem valid to me at a glance, but since it's something already accepted on another profile, I feel like that whole thing should be left to a dedicated thread.