Kisuke vs Rick (Smoking Genius vs Alcoholic Genius) 8-0-0

[Arcker123]

The Man of Incalculable Means Vs The Universe's Smartest Man​

• Supergenius Kisuke might be a bust but the match still works I suppose​
• I thought this would be a thematic and good match​
• TYBW Kisuke​
• Post Phoenix Project rick with Optional equipment​
• Speed =​
• Both have a week of prep and full knowledge​
• SBA Otherwise​
• I don't think this is a stomp​

Mr. Hat and Clogs: @Arcker123, TOAAPRESENCE1, Excel616, Shadyboi0, Mand21, Spectra_Schiffer, LordGinSama, Bastolan27

Pickle:

Incon:

 

[Phoenks]

what stops Rick from nuking the timeline from a multiversal distance away

 

[Arcker123]

Kisuke putting him in a seal

 

[Phoenks]

Kisuke putting him in a seal

Rick would absolutely never even be within his range if he has full knowledge. He can make practically infinite clones to do the work for him and stay dimensions away from the fight and still win without even being in the same universe lmfao.

 

[Arcker123]

Rick would absolutely never even be within his range if he has full knowledge.

Having prep or knowledge doesn't mean you start outside the 4KM sba range. It doesn't matter if he has lots of clones, Rick's real body starts within the 4KM.

He can make practically infinite clones to do the work for him

Kisuke is neg diffing all them clones in an instant.

 

[Phoenks]

Having prep or knowledge doesn't mean you start outside the 4KM sba range. It doesn't matter if he has lots of clones, Rick's real body starts within the 4KM.

Immediately just teleports multiversal+ distance away gg.

Kisuke is neg diffing all them clones in an instant.

One of them just clicks a button and the universe is gone gg.

 

[Phoenks]

Hell, if he has all his equipment he can just use fortune cookies, get a bunch of clones, and he immediately warps probability to make all of them immortal and win. Gg.

 

[Arcker123]

Immediately just teleports multiversal+ distance away gg.

He needs draw the portal gun and make a portal before jumping through it.

This is slower than Kisuke simply pointing at him and putting him in a Bakudo seal.

One of them just clicks a button and the universe is gone gg.

Kisuke kills them with his Reiatsu before they can do that.

 

[Arcker123]

Hell, if he has all his equipment he can just use fortune cookies, get a bunch of clones, and he immediately warps probability to make all of them immortal and win. Gg.

If we really wanna goon here. Kisuke just creates another Hogyoku, becomes Soul King or creates one, gets the Almighty, and kills Rick in every future timeline.

 

[Phoenks]

He needs draw the portal gun and make a portal before jumping through it.

This is slower than Kisuke simply pointing at him and putting him in a Bakudo seal.

How would he tell him apart from thousands of clones that all act the exact same and have the same physiology?

Kisuke kills them with his Reiatsu before they can do that.

What's the range and why even assume Rick can't just make something to prevent that. He could make a device in like 5 minutes that prevented universal plot manipulation what prevents him from just creating soul resistance shit? Lol.

And can Reitasu even go through barriers/walls? And if they are speed equal, they could all even just have spaceships and just fly at Massively FTL+ speed while Kisuke is equalized down to human speed.

I don't think you truly realize the level of BS Rick can pull with prep time. I don't even think that Kisuke has an answer to Immortality type 6 either. Rick can just recreate a new body for himself if his old one is destroyed a multiversal distance away.

He could even make another operation phoenix within minutes.

It's not like standard resurrections or regeneration so destroying his soul/mind wouldn't prevent it.

 

[Lynieryz]

Rick is Soul Crushed and dies before even being able to think.

 

[Phoenks]

Rick is Soul Crushed and dies before even being able to think.

soul destruction wouldn't even work on rick his immortality is based on technological cloning lol.

 

[Lynieryz]

Post Phoenix Project rick with Optional equipment

soul destruction wouldn't even work on rick his immortality is based on technological cloning lol.

Does Rick have PP active in this battle or is it Rick after PP deactivation?

 

[Phoenks]

Does Rick have PP active in this battle or is it Rick after deactivation?

Rick would definitely have it active. In one of the recent episodes he showed that with prep time he can literally just create another Operation Phoenix in minutes.

Also in this specific key he has it active by default and it resurrects him in another universe. But with prep time he can make it infinitely more efficient which is showed in Season 7 Episode 9.

 

[Arcker123]

How would he tell him apart from thousands of clones that all act the exact same and have the same physiology?

Because not only does he have knowledge of clone spam, he has ESP to sense the exact life force and spiritual of a real rick.

What's the range

Characters with Kisuke's tier of Reiryoku crush people from 22KM away.

why even assume Rick can't just make something to prevent that. He could make a device in like 5 minutes that prevented universal plot manipulation what prevents him from just creating soul resistance shit? Lol.

Because I have no reason to assume that he can just give himself immunities to all the abilities Reiatsu gives on a layered before they are applied as soon as the match begins.

This is entirely apples to oranges, you'd need to prove he could do that.

And can Reitasu even go through barriers/walls? And if they are speed equal, they could all even just have spaceships and just fly at Massively FTL+ speed while Kisuke is equalized down to human speed.

Yes? We've seen characters soul crush entire towns despite all the buildings.

Kisuke could just point and shoot Kido and atomize the 9-B spaceships with his 5-C attacks before they get in. They don't start in their spaceships, and besides, Shunpo allows Kisuke to amp and blitz all the clones with a thought.

I don't think you truly realize the level of BS Rick can pull with prep time. I don't even think that Kisuke has an answer to Immortality type 6 either. Rick can just recreate a new body for himself if his old one is destroyed a multiversal distance away.

He doesn't have to kill Rick to win here, and with knowledge he would never attempt such.

He has sealing and other methods of incap like erasing all of rick's memories. I see no reason that Kisuke can't just point and use his sealing to immediately seal Rick, all of these strategies Rick can use are a lot slower than a finger point.

He could even make another operation phoenix within minutes.

Cool. Kisuke is aware of that and wouldn't kill Rick at all, and would rather use his Bakudo sealing or Reiatsu incap passives like fear manipulation and paralysis.

It's not like standard resurrections or regeneration so destroying his soul/mind wouldn't prevent it.

I don't disagree, it just wouldn't come into play here.

 

[Mand21]

I love Urahara, but if Rick has a way around Reiatsu crushing, then his inventions win this fight. This fight is just... either one side stomps, or the other stomps. xD It's just not balanced!

 

[Arcker123]

Kisuke, especially with prep has ways to incapacitate Rick in ways that wouldn't kill him, and he can just supress his Reiatsu such that it only paralyzes and fear haxes instead of killing Rick.

This fight is just... either one side stomps, or the other stomps. xD It's just not balanced!

Both can definitely win here, I just think Kisuke's wincons are easier to do.

 

[Phoenks]

Because not only does he have knowledge of clone spam, he has ESP to sense the exact life force and spiritual of a real rick.

Explain how the life force/spiritual of real rick would differ from the clones.

Prior knowledge of clones doesn't help you determine who is real. If he pulls up 4km away surrounded by countless clones then you're going to need some specific feats for that.

Characters with Kisuke's tier of Reiryoku crush people from 22KM away.

Because I have no reason to assume that he can just give himself immunities to all the abilities Reiatsu gives on a layered before they are applied as soon as the match begins.

This is entirely apples to oranges, you'd need to prove he could do that.

Yes? We've seen characters soul crush entire towns despite all the buildings.

Kisuke could just point and shoot Kido and atomize the 9-B spaceships with his 5-C attacks before they get in. They don't start in their spaceships, and besides, Shunpo allows Kisuke to amp and blitz all the clones with a thought.

All of them could just start with fortune cookies that make them immortal and cause everything here to just not function.

The ship is not 9-B it's like star level to solar system level btw it battled a guy that dwarfed a solar system.

They could all start in their ships if they wanted to and just blitz the **** out of him with ease. If they know how fast he is that would be a very viable option.

Or they could make a Tier 4 mecha robot.

 

[Lynieryz]

What is Rick's response to passively fainting because of the SC and being thrown into the Soul King Palace through an artificial Valley of Screams, the Soul King Palace blocks dimensional travel and has the zero division which is hostile to any invader.

 

[Excellence616]

How potent is Rick immorality and Regeneration?

 

[Arcker123]

Explain how the life force/spiritual of real rick would differ from the clones.

Because Kisuke would be fully aware of Rick's usage of this strategy and would focus on even the minute differences in energy.

Besides this is something Kisuke is unironically smart enough to just deduce on the fly. People less intelligent than Kisuke can literally deduce everything about a person with a glance, you can argue that Kisuke would deduce the real ones from the looks on their faces.

Clones are still completely useless here due to the fact Kisuke Reiatsu crushes and fear haxes all of them before they can do anything at all.

All of them could just start with fortune cookies that make them immortal and cause everything here to just not function.

They only make Rick unable to die until the fortune is fufilled.

I have no reason to think they'd be able to prevent Kisuke's incap option.

The ship is not 9-B it's like star level to solar system level btw it battled a guy that dwarfed a solar system.

The ship doesn't have a listed AP so you're going to have to give scans for that.

Do we even give AP ratings for large size like this?

They could all start in their ships if they wanted to and just blitz the **** out of him with ease. If they know how fast he is that would be a very viable option.

They can't start in the spaceship. SBA would entail they're outside of it as in a fight, getting in the spaceship is still something they have to activate.

Besides, Passives > MFTL

Or they could make a Tier 4 mecha robot.

Kisuke can create technologies to kill tier 3's with ease, as shown with Hikone.

Btw, what's the counter to Kisuke creating his own tier 3 soul king candidate and giving them the Hogyoku which passively warps fate and reality to just make Kisuke win?

 

[Bastolan27]

Kisuke + hogyoku = stomp

 

[Phoenks]

Because Kisuke would be fully aware of Rick's usage of this strategy and would focus on even the minute differences in energy.

Besides this is something Kisuke is unironically smart enough to just deduce on the fly. People less intelligent than Kisuke can literally deduce everything about a person with a glance, you can argue that Kisuke would deduce the real ones from the looks on their faces.

Clones are still completely useless here due to the fact Kisuke Reiatsu crushes and fear haxes all of them before they can do anything at all.

Okay so there are many many problems here.

1. Minute differences in energy wouldn't even exist. You are underestimating how real Rick's clones are. They have absolutely no differences. Even the current Rick is just a clone of a clone of a clone because he's died multiple times.
2. Can he deduce countless clones away from a "real"/"main" person? If not then I disagree hard that these sensory abilities are enough lol.
3. You are saying he wouldn't kill Rick, but also saying he'd kill all the clones. If they are all in range of the Reitasu crush then the real Rick dies instantly and just reboots in another universe where he can do anything he wants without even needing to be near Kisuke.

Your argument isn't making sense.

Either he kills all of them with Reitasu, or he doesn't. Choose.

They only make Rick unable to die until the fortune is fufilled.

I have no reason to think they'd be able to prevent Kisuke's incap option.

???

Rick can literally just write down that he'd beat Kisuke on one of the fortunes or literally anything else that'd just fate him into winning. And Kisuke does not have a means of preventing spacetime probability and fate warping so no, he'd never get to use one of his winning options to win the fight.

It can make impossibilities happen so you're going to need to explain thoroughly as to why his incap option works against that.

The ship doesn't have a listed AP so you're going to have to give scans for that.

Do we even give AP ratings for large size like this?

Yes, we give AP ratings for large size lol.

They can't start in the spaceship. SBA would entail they're outside of it as in a fight

Tell me where it says that.

 

[Bastolan27]

I don't see any time-stop resistance in Rick's profile, so Kisuke uses forbidden Kido to stop time and then seals all the Ricks.

 

[Bastolan27]

Also, Kisuke is a Kido master, and with prep time, he can create new Kido.

 

[Phoenks]

I don't see any time-stop resistance in Rick's profile, so Kisuke uses forbidden Kido to stop time and then seals all the Ricks.

You guys need to really make up your mind. Does Rick instantly die to Reiatsu? If so, then he stomps as from there he can do anything he wants from a multiversal distance away.

If not, then Kisuke still has no answer to probability and fate manipulation on the level of fortune cookies.

And he does not have the feats to even sense Rick apart from his many clones that are all exactly the same.

 

[Bastolan27]

You guys need to really make up your mind. Does Rick instantly die to Reiatsu? If so, then he stomps as from there he can do anything he wants from a multiversal distance away.

If not, then Kisuke still has no answer to probability and fate manipulation on the level of fortune cookies.

And he does not have the feats to even sense Rick apart from his many clones that are all exactly the same.

Time stop is not individual; he freezes all the space around him. So

I don't see any time-stop resistance in Rick's profile, so Kisuke uses forbidden Kido to stop time and then seals all the Ricks.

 

[Phoenks]

Time stop is not individual; he freezes all the space around him.

Address my arguments.

Time stop doesn't matter until you argue against the very basics of this match.

 

[Arcker123]

1. Minute differences in energy wouldn't even exist. You are underestimating how real Rick's clones are. They have absolutely no differences. Even the current Rick is just a clone of a clone of a clone because he's died multiple times.

You'd need to prove that. Rick needs a showing that he'd be able to completely warp his spiritual and life presence to prevent even the minute discrepancies.

2. Can he deduce countless clones away from a "real"/"main" person? If not then I disagree hard that these sensory abilities are enough lol.

When he looks at the clones, he would eventually figure out the real rick by predicting what he's thinking by his face, and he'd just predict that he's the real rick by guessing he's "thinking about the fact he's the real rick."

3. You are saying he wouldn't kill Rick, but also saying he'd kill all the clones. If they are all in range of the Reitasu crush then the real Rick dies instantly and just reboots in another universe where he can do anything he wants without even needing to be near Kisuke.

No I never said that. I said Reiatsu can incapacitate people with its fear and paralysis, which Kisuke would do because he knows about the immortality.

Either he kills all of them with Reitasu, or he doesn't. Choose.

Reiatsu doesn't have to kill people and can instead incapacitate.

Rick can literally just write down that he'd beat Kisuke on one of the fortunes or literally anything else that'd just fate him into winning.

Rick literally lost access to all the fortune cookie shit by the end of the episode and wasn't able to replace them at all. He was never even able to write his own fortunes, why would I assume he could do any of this as a viable strategy for prep.

And Kisuke does not have a means of preventing spacetime probability and fate warping so no, he'd never get to use one of his winning options to win the fight.

He does actually, The Hogyoku, which warps reality and fate on the scale of several universes. You can read the description here, it has better fate feats than the cookies, which Rick is incapable of manipulating on the scale you're arguing.

It can make impossibilities happen so you're going to need to explain thoroughly as to why his incap option doesn't work lol.

You need to prove it can actually stop passive hax, because all it's shown to do is make Rick unable to die, which isn't the same as stopping passives.

Yes, we give AP ratings for large size lol.

Well that's an incredible over simplification of the justification.

None of this tier 4 scaling is actually on profile anyway, and I doubt size alone would get the ship to tier 4.

Tell me where it says that.

Well you don't start with an ability active unless it's passive, i don't think preparation time changes that.

 

[Lynieryz]

You guys need to really make up your mind. Does Rick instantly die to Reiatsu? If so, then he stomps as from there he can do anything he wants from a multiversal distance away.

If not, then Kisuke still has no answer to probability and fate manipulation on the level of fortune cookies.

And he does not have the feats to even sense Rick apart from his many clones that are all exactly the same.

Kisuke has prior knowledge so his reiatsu will be exactly adjusted to just faint Rick, he won't use the cookies because of the passive.

What is Rick's response to passively fainting because of the SC and being thrown into the Soul King Palace through an artificial Valley of Screams, the Soul King Palace blocks dimensional travel and has the zero division which is hostile to any invader.

 

[Bastolan27]

Address my arguments.

Time stop doesn't matter until you argue against the very basics of this match.

If Kisuke has knowledge of Rick's immo, then he won't use soul crush. By the way, how does Rick's immortality work? If it transfers consciousness, Kisuke wins with soul crush due to being able to crush body, mind, and soul.

 

[Arcker123]

You guys need to really make up your mind.

We are not a Monolith. Different people can make different arguments as to why they think a character wins, and one person can create different arguments for each position.

Does Rick instantly die to Reiatsu?

No, because if Kisuke wants to use Reiatsu to win, he'd use it's fear and paralysis to incap. This has no bearing on Kisuke's other wincons which are in discussion.

If so, then he stomps as from there he can do anything he wants from a multiversal distance away.

No, Kisuke would seal him before he could escape. He'd know about Rick's ability to teleport.

If not, then Kisuke still has no answer to probability and fate manipulation on the level of fortune cookies.

You need to show why it'd prevent a seal just spawning on Rick, when all Rick can do with it is use random fortunes to prevent death.

And he does not have the feats to even sense Rick apart from his many clones that are all exactly the same.

If you want to go down this route, Rick can't even see Kisuke due to his layered invisibility and can't damage him because he lacks attacks on an astral level.

 

[Phoenks]

ou'd need to prove that. Rick needs a showing that he'd be able to completely warp his spiritual and life presence to prevent even the minute discrepancies.

Kisuke would not even have knowledge on Rick's exact "spiritual" or "life" presence at the time of the battle.

Even if he has prior knowledge, he'd only know of the Rick from the beginning of the "week" that you gave them. He can easily just give himself a new body with other life essence or anything else. He could even make himself a robot ffs. It would be no different from the others.

What you need to do is prove that he can, in real time, detect a "real" apart from a group of clones that are not different in any meaningful way from the "Real" body.

When he looks at the clones, he would eventually figure out the real rick by predicting what he's thinking by his face, and he'd just predict that he's the real rick by guessing he's "thinking about the fact he's the real rick."

Link doesn't work and this is not a convincing argument whatsoever.

He needs to predict the expressions and memories of thousands of different Ricks and single out the real Rick before the real Rick just teleports away.

No I never said that. I said Reiatsu can incapacitate people with its fear and paralysis, which Kisuke would do because he knows about the immortality.

And what is to say that Rick can't just alter his own mind to erase fear, use a potion to manipulate his emotional state, or simply arrive at the match as a robot?

Rick literally lost access to all the fortune cookie shit by the end of the episode and wasn't able to replace them at all. He was never even able to write his own fortunes, why would I assume he could do any of this as a viable strategy for prep.

You gave him all the optional equipment. At the end of the episode he wrote down his own fortune.

He does actually, The Hogyoku, which warps reality and fate on the scale of several universes. You can read the description here, it has better fate feats than the cookies, which Rick is incapable of manipulating on the scale you're arguing.

How does he get access to that?

None of this tier 4 scaling is actually on profile anyway, and I doubt size alone would get the ship to tier 4.

It says that his stuff ranges from 10-C to 3-A on the profile, bro.

And yes, it definitely would. My guy the dude literally chomped on a solar system. What do you mean???

Well you don't start with an ability active unless it's passive, i don't think preparation time changes that.

It's not an ability. IF they have prep time what stops them from just arriving at the battle in spaceships?

 

[Arcker123]

Kisuke would not even have knowledge on Rick's exact "spiritual" or "life" presence at the time of the battle.

Even if he has prior knowledge, he'd only know of the Rick from the beginning of the "week" that you gave them. He can easily just give himself a new body with other life essence or anything else. He could even make himself a robot ffs. It would be no different from the others.

You'd need to prove that he's actually capable of completely altering his spiritual presence, and besides, Kisuke is capable of comprehending people who change their life force into completely different people dozens of times in a second. Even if Rick had a feat of that, it would never throw Kisuke off at all.

Robots in Bleach exist and can be sensed, that wouldn't stop Kisuke's ESP.

What you need to do is prove that he can, in real time, detect a "real" apart from a group of clones that are not different in any meaningful way from the "Real" body.

He can because he can sense life force down to incredibly minute details even amongst Zanpakuto and their owners (A Zanpakuto and it's master are the same person), and there's no evidence that Rick is capable of using clones to overcome that sensing.

Link doesn't work and this is not a convincing argument whatsoever.

Poggers.

He needs to predict the expressions and memories of thousands of different Ricks and single out the real Rick before the real Rick just teleports away.

He'd be aware of Rick's tendencies to use clones and would simply be looking for traits only a real Rick would do.

And besides, Rick is not going to be able to escape due to passives, and if he opens up a portal, how does that not reveal the real one?

And what is to say that Rick can't just alter his own mind to erase fear, use a potion to manipulate his emotional state,

Because you'd need to prove that he's capable of that first off, and this wouldn't stop things like paralysis or sensory jam that Reiatsu can do.

simply arrive at the match as a robot?

Reiatsu passives work on robots as shown with BG9.

You gave him all the optional equipment. At the end of the episode he wrote down his own fortune.

I personally don't even think it should be optional equipment, it's entirely context dependent and current Rick would never be capable of using it again or in a versus thread. Rick would at best have a bunch of rando fortunes but his ability to rewrite fortunes is something he needed the alien and facility for, things he would never has access to.

That doesn't change the fact that he is straightforwardly not capable of any of the things you claimed, like it would stop sealing, even though Rick himself was perfectly capable of grabbing and restraining people with fortunes. The fortunes are not stopping a seal just spawning on Rick.

How does he get access to that?

It's a device he created and can recreate whenever he feels it necessary. It's ability to warp fate is far superior to the cookies, and the Hogyoku can just read minds of people around it, and would thus counter clone disguising.

It says that his stuff ranges from 10-C to 3-A on the profile, bro.

None of the scaling for the ship is even on the page, nor the durability section. I'll grant it to you for the sake of argument (The ship's wouldn't stop Kisuke from winning).

And yes, it definitely would. My guy the dude literally chomped on a solar system. What do you mean???

"Size alone."

It's not an ability. IF they have prep time what stops them from just arriving at the battle in spaceships?

That's not how that works though. SBA just randomly plops you in central park whenever prep time is over and the fight starts, you aren't assumed to start in transformations or tech you would normally have to manually activate or get to.

 

[Arcker123]

@Phoenks I can assume you are voting for Rick no? Just like to get votes in.

@Lynieryz @Bastolan27 are yall voting for Kisuke?

 

[Phoenks]

You'd need to prove that he's actually capable of completely altering his spiritual presence, and besides, Kisuke is capable of comprehending people who change their life force into completely different people dozens of times in a second. Even if Rick had a feat of that, it would never throw Kisuke off at all.

Okay you seem to not be understanding here.

For one, why would the clones have a different spiritual presence in the first place if his cloning as nothing to do with spirit?

For two, if they do have a different spiritual presence, then what stops Rick from just cloning himself during the prep time so that Archer no longer has knowledge over what his particular spirit feels like?

He can because he can sense life force down to incredibly minute details even amongst Zanpakuto and their owners (A Zanpakuto and it's master are the same person), and there's no evidence that Rick is capable of using clones to overcome that sensing.

You need to prove the senses overcome the clones, which I am heavily not convinced by at all. Minute details don't matter dude. Ffs he doesn't even have a set "body." In one of the episodes he straight up alludes to how he can be anything. He can be a clone, a hologram, a robot, etc. Even if Kisuke is given knowledge of the real Rick's spiritual presence it wouldn't even remain the same after the prep time so he'd have to find it again.

He'd be aware of Rick's tendencies to use clones and would simply be looking for traits only a real Rick would do.

And besides, Rick is not going to be able to escape due to passives, and if he opens up a portal, how does that not reveal the real one?

All of them have portal guns and obviously Rick could throw him off by having multiple of them do the same or any other random thing.

Rick once out-planned a robot that was specifically created to plan against him with like dozens upon dozens of layers throughout every plan. He is ridiculously good at planning.

Because you'd need to prove that he's capable of that first off,

He can alter his own mind, he's worked on his own mind before. And he has created potions to affect mental states and emotions before. It isn't a stretch.

Reiatsu passives work on robots as shown with BG9.

Does it work on robots that have tier 4 durability? He can make one of those too.

I personally don't even think it should be optional equipment, it's entirely context dependent and current Rick would never be capable of using it again or in a versus thread. Rick would at best have a bunch of rando fortunes but his ability to rewrite fortunes is something he needed the alien and facility for, things he would never has access to.

That doesn't change the fact that he is straightforwardly not capable of any of the things you claimed, like it would stop sealing, even though Rick himself was perfectly capable of grabbing and restraining people with fortunes. The fortunes are not stopping a seal just spawning on Rick

He can write fortunes as seen at the end of the episode. And with optional equipment he'd have many blank fortunes that he could just write on to make any possibility occur.

None of the scaling for the ship is even on the page, nor the durability section. I'll grant it to you for the sake of argument (The ship's wouldn't stop Kisuke from winning).

Can you prove reiatsu bypasses tier 4 walls then?

"Size alone."

I don't know what you mean but if you are large enough to bite down on a solar system you are going to be Tier 4 through sheer size by default.

 

[Phoenks]

I don't even want to vote.

I first want you to tell me what you think both of their win-cons are. And they have to be capable of being possible simultaneously.

 

[Arcker123]

For one, why would the clones have a different spiritual presence in the first place if his cloning as nothing to do with spirit?

I never said otherwise, I asked for evidence for the claim Rick could change his spiritual pressure.

I just said that the Shinigami being able to distinguish a Shinigami from his sword, despite them being the same person is proof enough he'd be able to distinguish Rick from his clones.

For two, if they do have a different spiritual presence, then what stops Rick from just cloning himself during the prep time so that Archer no longer has knowledge over what his particular spirit feels like?

Funny.

This strategy wouldn't work though because Kisuke already has knowledge with opponents who completely change their life force. I said because of that knowledge, this would never work, even if Rick is capable of that.

You need to prove the senses overcome the clones, which I am heavily not convinced by at all. Minute details don't matter dude.

You need to prove that the cloning overcomes the senses, not the other way around, especially when I've been presenting evidence for Kisuke's sensory capacity.

Ffs he doesn't even have a set "body." In one of the episodes he straight up alludes to how he can be anything. He can be a clone, a hologram, a robot, etc. Even if Kisuke is given knowledge of the real Rick's spiritual presence it wouldn't even remain the same after the prep time so he'd have to find it again.

You still haven't proven Rick is capable of changing his presence, and even if he was, Kisuke already knows how to deal with that.

Rick C-137 absolutely has a main body that starts in the central park here, him having robots and shit doesn't matter here.

All of them have portal guns and obviously Rick could throw him off by having multiple of them do the same or any other random thing.

This doesn't counter the passive point at all. Even then, Kisuke with preparation could just deduce what the real Rick would do in such a scenrio given thefact he completely planned out for Askin Nakk Le Varr's deathdealing and perfectly predicted what he would do despite just seeing him.

Rick once out-planned a robot that was specifically created to plan against him with like dozens upon dozens of layers throughout every plan. He is ridiculously good at planning.

Okie Dokie.

He can alter his own mind, he's worked on his own mind before. And he has created potions to affect mental states and emotions before. It isn't a stretch.

Could you show him being able to completely remove emotions from his brain to the point that hax that can affect robots wouldn't be able to affect?

Does it work on robots that have tier 4 durability? He can make one of those too.

Durability is irrelevant. Durability isn't going to save you from hax which negates durability by definition, and Reiatsu isn't dependent upon AP.

He can write fortunes as seen at the end of the episode.

Yeah due to very specific contexts he wouldn't have access to here like blank fortunes and the alien who produces them.

And with optional equipment he'd have many blank fortunes that he could just write on to make any possibility occur.

He wouldn't, he literally only had blank fortunes due to the company, it's not something he just has on his own even as optional equipment, at best he'd just have the random fortunes.

Can you prove reiatsu bypasses tier 4 walls then?

The Durability of the walls is irrelevant because they're not using AP to bypass them.

I don't know what you mean but if you are large enough to bite down on a solar system you are going to be Tier 4 through sheer size by default.

Yes, the ap of biting down a solar system would get you tier 4.

I'm skeptical of being a size alone giving you a tier.

I first want you to tell me what you think both of their win-cons are. And they have to be capable of being possible simultaneously.

The assumption of this question is weird. It can be the case that we discuss multiple ways a fighter can win even if they aren't possible simultaneously by just discussing different ways a character might act in different scenarios.

I guess Rick wins if he manages to destroy the planet or universe, I guess he might win in the very off chance Kisuke kills him or sum.

Kisuke wins through his Reiatsu incapacitating Rick or preparing a sealing spell.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

kisuke FRA

 

[Phoenks]

The assumption of this question is weird. It can be the case that we discuss multiple ways a fighter can win even if they aren't possible simultaneously by just discussing different ways a character might act in different scenarios.

I guess Rick wins if he manages to destroy the planet or universe, I guess he might win in the very off chance Kisuke kills him or sum.

Kisuke wins through his Reiatsu incapacitating Rick or preparing a sealing spell.

Why is Kisuke killing him an off-chance if you're so certain he wouldn't?

I now need you to argue why this isn't a stomp because I think Rick stomps and your arguments suggest a Kisuke stomp.