Kisuke vs Rick (Smoking Genius vs Alcoholic Genius) 8-0-0

[Arcker123]

Why is Kisuke killing him an off-chance if you're so certain he wouldn't?

Because he's not a dumbass.

He's aware of the immortality and has numerous ways to stop it.

I now need you to argue why this isn't a stomp because I think Rick stomps and your arguments suggest a Kisuke stomp.

I didn't argue it to be a stomp, nor do I think that's entailed. I just argued Kisuke has ways to win and more reliably counters Rick's wincons.

Why do you think this is a Rick stomp?

 

[Excellence616]

How potent is Rick immorality and Regeneration?

So many Kido and Bakudo spells that Kisuke can use.

Kisuke FRA

 

[Shadyboi0]

Kisuke FRA

 

[Phoenks]

Because he's not a dumbass.

He's aware of the immortality and has numerous ways to stop it.

I am asking you why there's an off-chance if this is the case...

I didn't argue it to be a stomp, nor do I think that's entailed. I just argued Kisuke has ways to win and more reliably counters Rick's wincons.

Why do you think this is a Rick stomp?

I think this is a Rick stomp as I am still hugely unconvinced by him being able to identify the real Rick out of a group of clones, I am unconvinced that he resists plot and fate hax (having them as well doesn't make you resistant), I am unconvinced he can even get plot and fate hax in a week. And he has no answers to a universe bust.

I also think that all Rick would need to do in a theoretical match to win the fight is push a button. As he's shown to be capable of making bombs and devices that have universal affects.

 

[Arcker123]

I am asking you why there's an off-chance if this is the case...

Although highly unlikely it's possible for Kisuke to not do these things and lose.

A stomp is a match in which in every possible scenario, the loser loses with no possible way to win, if there's a chance fro Rick to win in some scenario, I don't think it's a stomp.

I think this is a Rick stomp as I am still hugely unconvinced by him being able to identify the real Rick out of a group of clones,

This doesn't defeat the other argument Kisuke has to deal with them, that being Reiatsu abilities. Even if this specifically doesn't convince you, you'd need to defeat this argument to use this to claim its a stomp.

I am unconvinced that he resists plot and fate hax (having them as well doesn't make you resistant)

Nobody claimed otherwise. The argument was that Rick's fortune cookies are not potent enough to prevent Kisuke from sealing rick with bakudo spawning on him.

I am unconvinced he can even get plot and fate hax in a week.

Though Kisuke pretends that he can't, it's stated that if he wanted to, he could've created a Hogyoku during the Blood war, which took place for only a week.

Also, why can't I say the same about Rick's cookies, which he would never able to get at all, much less in a week.

And he has no answers to a universe bust.

Sure, that's a wincon, but I've presented multiple reasons the fight wouldn't get to that point and that Kisuke more reliably wins before this.

Also would this even be ic for Rick? Rick's an asshole, but destroying an entire universe to kill one guy isn't something he'd ever do, or at the very least i'd need reason to think so.

 

[Phoenks]

Also would this even be ic for Rick? Rick's an asshole, but destroying an entire universe to kill one guy isn't something he'd ever do, or at the very least i'd need reason to think so.

Oh my god have you even watched Rick and Morty? I'm baffled by how you could even ask this. This is the dude that abandons entire universes if something minor goes wrong, nukes planets for fun, said he would nuke a universe just because "it didn't deserve to exist," kills millions casually, etc, etc, etc. He has a whole ass universe full of slaves just to power his car that has universes layered inside it.

If he needed to do this to survive he absolutely would. He's done FAR worse things.

 

[Arcker123]

Oh my god have you even watched Rick and Morty?

All seven seasons

I'm baffled by how you could even ask this.

I interpret Rick's character to be somebody who's an asshole forsure, but he has at least some semblance of morality.

This is the dude that abandons entire universes if something minor goes wrong, nukes planets for fun, said he would nuke a universe just because "it didn't deserve to exist," kills millions casually, etc, etc, etc. He has a whole ass universe full of slaves just to power his car that has universes layered inside it.

If he needed to do this to survive he absolutely would. He's done FAR worse things.

None of this is close to universal omnicide. He generally only does these mass acts of violence because he feels wronged by something, not because he's just that much of an asshole.

I guess you could argue that since Rick knows Kisuke is the biggest threat to his life he's ever encountered, he would be willing to condemn an entire universe. This isn't really a major argument to be had, just thought it was worth noting.

 

[Phoenks]

All seven seasons

I interpret Rick's character to be somebody who's an asshole forsure, but he has at least some semblance of morality.

None of this is close to universal omnicide. He generally only does these mass acts of violence because he feels wronged by something, not because he's just that much of an asshole.

I guess you could argue that since Rick knows Kisuke is the biggest threat to his life he's ever encountered, he would be willing to condemn an entire universe. This isn't really a major argument to be had, just thought it was worth noting.

Dude casually said he would nuke a universe because he didn't think it should exist...

He also has made multiple devices that cause damage to multiple universes. Such as in a recent episode when he was searching for his nemesis he made a machine that caused devastating shockwaves throughout the entire multiverse just as a side effect.

I disagree with pretty much every point you've tried to make in this thread.

 

[Phoenks]

He also would've nuked that universe in the car battery if the slaves inside it didn't continue working just because it didn't power his car.

Which would include potentially countless other universes within that universe.

 

[Arcker123]

I disagree with pretty much every point you've tried to make in this thread.

Astounding observation, I wouldn't have guessed...

I wasn't even making a point there, I just wanted you to show something, I never said I thought it wasn't in character, in fact I even granted you:

I guess you could argue that since Rick knows Kisuke is the biggest threat to his life he's ever encountered, he would be willing to condemn an entire universe. This isn't really a major argument to be had, just thought it was worth noting.

So you're just arguing against a point I never made.

 

[Phoenks]

I've lost interest in the thread already. I don't feel like debating further it will just go in circles. I don't even think this should be added to profiles regardless of the outcome as it does not seem like a fair fight with either side's arguments. I think that you saying "oh but there's a possibility that Kisuke doesn't kill him" is just you trying to make it so it isn't a stomp.

Meanwhile I was always arguing in favor of Rick stomping. Also, the whole probability thing has never even been proven so I disagree with using that at all. But yeah, unfollowing.

 

[Arcker123]

I’m only going to respond to this part because it is pertinent to my thread:

I think that you saying "oh but there's a possibility that Kisuke doesn't kill him" is just you trying to make it so it isn't a stomp.

I never said this. The only thing about this match that could possibly make it a stomp is Reiatsu passives, but given the nature of Rick’s immortality and his knowledge of it, going for Reiatsu wouldn’t necessarily be a go to, it would be likely, but not necessary. It’s not a stomp because the wincons both characters have are not going to apply in every scenario, and there’s still debate to be had. I think that's an honest thing to say.

You haven't at all justified why this is a stomp.

 

[Mand21]

Kisuke, especially with prep has ways to incapacitate Rick in ways that wouldn't kill him, and he can just supress his Reiatsu such that it only paralyzes and fear haxes instead of killing Rick.

Both can definitely win here, I just think Kisuke's wincons are easier to do.

I see. Then I think Kisuke wins.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

I vote for Kisuke, hax diff fr

 

[Phoenks]

I don't know why I didn't think of this yesterday but actually Rick doesn't need to do anything once the match starts.

He could just have hundreds of bombs set to go off the instant the fight starts. He's made many, many bombs like that in the series, even going as far back as the first episode.

Which could just destroy the planet, or the universe. He'd win instantly.


Also, you still have failed to give any reason for me to believe you about the clone things. You have to realize every single Rick is a deviation of the same Rick, who is the deviation of the same rick, who is the deviation, and so on.

There is no reason he'd be able to pick out "The real Rick" when he just a deviation in a group of thousands of deviations. He'd need to have specific feats of picking out the real person from a group of thousands of identical clones. Even if they have spiritual differences compared to the Rick he has knowledge of, so would that "real" Rick. And the deviations would be no different from the others.

It's especially disingenuous to say Rick would still have himself be easily found out when he KNOWS about Kisuke's senses. It's downright ridiculous.

By the way Rick hard counters Reiatsu by just showing up in a solar system-sized robot and bypassing the 22 km range it has.

And SBA does not go against that either. If you give them prep time he can do whatever the hell he can do. It's like if you gave Batman prep, he'd show up with his Hellbat suit of armor. Or Iron Man.

 

[Arcker123]

He could just have hundreds of bombs set to go off the instant the fight starts. He's made many, many bombs like that in the series, even going as far back as the first episode.

Which could just destroy the planet, or the universe. He'd win instantly.

Wouldn’t at all beat the Hogyoku due to its Mid Godly that it grants.

Also, you still have failed to give any reason for me to believe you about the clone things. You have to realize every single Rick is a deviation of the same Rick, who is the deviation of the same rick, who is the deviation, and so on.

There is no reason he'd be able to pick out "The real Rick" when he just a deviation in a group of thousands of deviations. He'd need to have specific feats of picking out the real person from a group of thousands of identical clones. Even if they have spiritual differences compared to the Rick he has knowledge of, so would that "real" Rick. And the deviations would be no different from the others.

I have given you feats of the ESP being able to distinguish two beings who are spiritually the exact same person (A zanpakuto and its owner are the same). You have not debunked that and keep repeating the claim I have not justified this.

It's especially disingenuous to say Rick would still have himself be easily found out when he KNOWS about Kisuke's senses. It's downright ridiculous.

Rick has no feats suggesting he could hide from Kisuke's senses, thats the point.

By the way Rick hard counters Reiatsu by just showing up in a solar system-sized robot and bypassing the 22 km range it has.

And SBA does not go against that either. If you give them prep time he can do whatever the hell he can do. It's like if you gave Batman prep, he'd show up with his Hellbat suit of armor. Or Iron Man.

Even if i granted this SBA argument, this isn't the hard counter you think.

Kisuke with prep can just use the Hogyoku to evolve into a tier 3 to tier 2 being whose Reiatsu is universal in range, or he can just create a hybrid being to do just that like Hikone.

 

[Phoenks]

Wouldn’t at all beat the Hogyoku due to its Mid Godly that it grants.

Universal space-time destruction (Which Rick is highly capable of) requires High-Godly.

I have given you feats of the ESP being able to distinguish two beings who are spiritually the exact same person (A zanpakuto and its owner are the same). You have not debunked that and keep repeating the claim I have not justified this.

Because that's not good enough to see through Rick's potentially thousands of identical clones at all. Especially when they could all be outside of the range of his senses.

Again, you need specific feats for this. Something like the characters from God of Highschool who actually have specific feats of finding a real person from quadrillions of identical ones. Through just sheer bullshit intuition.

At best, the feats you provide would allow him to pick Rick out from a group of two. And I don't even think that's accurate to the situation considering it doesn't seem that zanpakuto are the same in every capacity. It also isn't even remotely the same kind of perception that'd allow you to see through cloning.

Either provide more points or concede.

Even if i granted this SBA argument, this isn't the hard counter you think.

Kisuke with prep can just use the Hogyoku to evolve into a tier 3 to tier 2 being whose Reiatsu is universal in range, or he can just create a hybrid being to do just that like Hikone.

He'd be dead the moment the match starts.

 

[Arcker123]

Universal space-time destruction (Which Rick is highly capable of) requires High-Godly.

You said blow up the planet .

Also, if Rick blows up the timeline, he needs to get tf outta dodge first, which he wouldn't be able to do due to Reiatsu and sealing.

Because that's not good enough to see through Rick's potentially thousands of identical clones at all. Especially when they could all be outside of the range of his senses.

Again, you need specific feats for this. Something like the characters from God of Highschool who actually have specific feats of finding a real person from quadrillions of identical ones. Through just sheer bullshit intuition.

At best, the feats you provide would allow him to pick Rick out from a group of two. And I don't even think that's accurate to the situation considering it doesn't seem that zanpakuto are the same in every capacity. It also isn't even remotely the same kind of perception that'd allow you to see through cloning.

Either provide more points or concede.

He's not looking for a needle in a haystack, he's looking for a baseball bat in a haystack. I have no reason to believe numbers actually matters when Kisuke has the range to sense all of them all at once and would be able to tell rick's energy specifically, which I've proven. This isn't some crazy skill feat I need to justify, it's just a basic application of what it's already shown to do.

The Zanpakuto is the user, The Zanpakuto is just its user's soul.

Edit: This whole topic is irrelevant anyway because Kisuke just negs all the clones with Reiatsu ovo.

He'd be dead the moment the match starts.

Rick cannot use a timeline destroying bomb as soon as the match begins. He would kill himself in the crossfire.

A planetary bomb is not doing anything to Kisuke with prep, who has Mid Godly and is 3-C

 

[Phoenks]

You said blow up the planet .

Also, if Rick blows up the timeline, he needs to get tf outta dodge first, which he wouldn't be able to do due to Reiatsu and sealing.

Even if he blows up the planet it could just kill Rick too.

Rick could just kill himself, actually. That'd also be an instant win-condition since he could boot up outside the universe lol.

He's not looking for a needle in a haystack, he's looking for a baseball bat in a haystack. I have no reason to believe numbers actually matters when Kisuke has the range to sense all of them all at once and would be able to tell rick's energy specifically, which I've proven.

You have not proven how Rick's energy would differ from his clones in any meaningful way.

Even if it did differ, so would every other clones.

It's insane how you don't realize what I'm trying to tell you. At this point I wish you'd get in a call.

You have also not proven that he has the range to sense through potentially planetary to even solar system sized robots full of clones.

Rick cannot use a timeline destroying bomb as soon as the match begins. He would kill himself in the crossfire.

Which would be a win-con for him... since he could just go a multiversal distance away via cloning.

A planetary bomb is not doing anything to Kisuke with prep, who has Mid Godly and is 3-C

The bomb can be 2-C for all he cares.

Even if its 5-B and kills Rick, Rick still wins. If it's universal, Rick still wins.

 

[Arcker123]

Even if he blows up the planet it could just kill Rick too.

Rick could just kill himself, actually. That'd also be an instant win-condition since he could boot up outside the universe lol.

He'd have to return to the battlefield in a day otherwise its self BFR.

You have not proven how Rick's energy would differ from his clones in any meaningful way.

Even if it did differ, so would every other clones.

It's insane how you don't realize what I'm trying to tell you. At this point I wish you'd get in a call.

I've already provided you feats of ESP working on two people who would be the same in terms of spiritual presence. I have never once claimed they would differ. You can't accuse me of not understanding the argument lol.

Also nice discord goon. .daddysmoke is my tag.

You have also not proven that he has the range to sense through potentially planetary to even solar system sized robots full of clones.

Kisuke with the Hogyoku would just be the soul king tier. People at that tier can sense several universes and through them

Which would be a win-con for him... since he could just go a multiversal distance away via cloning.

With prep why can't Kisuke just use a time stop Kido to stop himself from being harmed by the bombs he knows RIck has access to?

The bomb can be 2-C for all he cares.

Even if its 5-B and kills Rick, Rick still wins. If it's universal, Rick still wins.

How does this get past Kisuke's Hogyoku fate manip though?

If Kisuke wills it, the Hogyoku would just warp reality and fate to stop rick from killing himself.

 

[Phoenks]

Arcker is arguing that a 100% certain passive victory "isn't necessarily a stomp." I disagree.

I am pretty sure if someone passively counters there opponent and wins the match 100% of the time as a result, it should be deemed a stomp.

 

[Arcker123]

Arcker is arguing that a 100% certain passive victory "isn't necessarily a stomp." I disagree.

I said 100% certainty alone isn't a stomp, and nowhere in the page for stomps does it say this.

---

My exact reasoning for calling this match a decisive win instead of a stomp comes from two examples of non stomp matches our page uses:

• Both characters have several methods of winning, including options that allow them to win instantly. However, one character can reliably use/activate their winning move(s) first.

• One character has more ways to win than the other, but the other character wins more times than not due to matchup specifics that allow/cause them to use their winning move(s) immediately.

For context, Pheonks and I agreed that one of Rick's strategies would be to create a bomb that goes off to kill Rick as soon as the match begins, but I countered by saying the Hogyoku's reality warping and fate manipulation would counter that. We also discussed Rick's other wincon of portalling away, but I argued that Reiatsu incapacitation would stop that and would let Kisuke seal him without resistance or sum if not directly incapping (I didn't say this to Pheonks, just mentioning it here).

So basically our scenario is that 2 characters have instant ways to win, and plenty of other ways to win beyond that, but one character's winning move's can be activated first, especially due to the scenario the thread proposes. I believe that our two examples of non stomp matches explicitly outline how such a match isn't considered to be a stomp. I also believe it isn't a stomp because the conclusion isn't obvious at all, and took lots of debating to reach, which isn't in our stomp definition.

Edit: The 100% would also apply to the first example, as the winning character would always get their wincon off first, and that isn't considered a stomp.

 

[Phoenks]

If it's 100% certain and happens passively it's definitely a stomp by your logic though. You quite literally agreed it is passive.

 

[Arcker123]

If it's 100% certain and happens passively it's definitely a stomp by your logic though. You quite literally agreed it is passive.

Nothing i've said entails this is a stomp, all i've said is that matches of this nature do not meet our stomp standards and is outlined not too.

Rick having his own instant wincons makes this not a stomp, them being worse than Kisuke's doesn't matter to that, as the examples of non stomp stats. I put this best here:

Edit: The 100% would also apply to the first example, as the winning character would always get their wincon off first, and that isn't considered a stomp.

 

[Phoenks]

If Kisuke's win-cons happen passively 100% of the time then Rick has no chance at winning.

 

[Phoenks]

Post in thread 'What exactly is a stomp?' https://vsbattles.com/threads/what-exactly-is-a-stomp.155602/post-5865708

 

[LordGinSama]

A planetary bomb is not doing anything to Kisuke with prep, who has Mid Godly and is 3-C

Mid godly Kisuke? What

 

[Arcker123]

If Kisuke's win-cons happen passively 100% of the time then Rick has no chance at winning.

His only passive wincon is Reiatsu paralysis into sealing, but again, the rules say this isn't a stomp as the reason this happens is due to the circumstances of the match, which is specifically outlined to not being a stomped.

This is just really decisive, but doesn't meet our site standards for a stomp, or at the very least that hasn't been proven.

Post in thread 'What exactly is a stomp?' https://vsbattles.com/threads/what-exactly-is-a-stomp.155602/post-5865708

No accepted conclusion was reached here. This doesn't counter me directly citing the stomp rules from the page itself and explaining how the match falls uner our non stomp examples.

 

[Phoenks]

You literally agreed that he wins due to passives that win against Rick 100% of the time and prevent him from doing anything in response.

That is a stomp as Rick has absolutely no way to win by your arguments.

You are arguing in favor of a stomp and misunderstanding the rules.

 

[LordGinSama]

Kisuke doesn't have mid godly regeneration.

 

[Arcker123]

Mid godly Kisuke? What

We're giving him prep which means he could create the Hogyoku again if he needs to.

You literally agreed that he wins due to passives that win against Rick 100% of the time and prevent him from doing anything in response.

That is a stomp as Rick has absolutely no way to win by your arguments.

You are arguing in favor of a stomp and misunderstanding the rules.

What rule am I mis citing?

What rules or standards are you even using here?

 

[Phoenks]

We're giving him prep which means he could create the Hogyoku again if he needs to.

What rule am I mis citing?

What rules or standards are you even using here?

The same standard.

By reliable means it that the win-con happens more likely than another win-cons. "Win-cons" being something that a character can do to win the fight that happens at least a certain percentage of the time.

Rick does not have any win-cons in the scenario you suggests, as he would be passively incapacitated and fate haxxed 100% of the time.

Thus by your logic the match is a stomp as Rick does not have any way to win.

 

[LordGinSama]

We're giving him prep which means he could create the Hogyoku again if he needs to.

I feel like that's pretty out of character for Kisuke to do that tbh.

I'd argue he'd more likely try to make some type of device that negates technology that Rick uses rather than making a whole ass Hogyoku again to beat a random human.


Remember Rick has 2-B technology that can one shot him but that's irrelevant if Kisuke creates a device that jams said tech from working. Which he's more than capable of doing since Rick's tech aren't 4-D so he could make a super EMP to disable his tech within the week.


Voting Kisuke via building something to negate Rick's technology which is more in character for him to do and honestly better than him creating a hogyoku.

 

[Phoenks]

I feel like that's pretty out of character for Kisuke to do that tbh.

I'd argue he'd more likely try to make some type of device that negates technology that Rick uses rather than making a whole ass Hogyoku again to beat a random human.


Remember Rick has 2-B technology that can one shot him but that's irrelevant if Kisuke creates a device that jams said tech from working. Which he's more than capable of doing since Rick's tech aren't 4-D so he could make a super EMP to disable his tech within the week.


Voting Kisuke via building something to negate Rick's technology which is more in character for him to do and honestly better than him creating a hogyoku.

In this scenario what is Kisuke's answer to a bomb set to destroy the timeline at the instant the fight starts or something that would kill Rick himself right as the fight starts?

I'd like to continue that debate with you. Seems more interesting anyway.

 

[Arcker123]

The same standard.

By reliable means it that the win-con happens more likely than another win-cons. "Win-cons" being something that a character can do to win the fight that happens at least a certain percentage of the time.

Rick does not have any win-cons in the scenario you suggests, as he would be passively incapacitated and fate haxxed 100% of the time.

You seem to be using a different definition of wincon than what the page uses. If the page defined wincon as "has to happen at least sometime" then that's inconsistent with the examples.

Somebody with thought based mind hax will 100% beat somebody with action based hax, and they will never get the chance to use action based hax, but our standards explicitly outline how such a scenario is not a stomp, and is rather decisive. Such is the same here, both have instant wincons rather, but Kisuke's are just better.

Win con just means "way a character can win" not "has to happen in some rendition of the scenario."

Also something happening all the time would make it more likely.

I feel like that's pretty out of character for Kisuke to do that tbh.

Eh that's arguable but fair, we know he was planning on giving Ichigo a Hogyoku if he needed to kill Aizen/Yhwach so there's that.

 

[Phoenks]

Somebody with thought based mind hax will 100% beat somebody with action based hax, and they will never get the chance to use action based hax, but our standards explicitly outline how such a scenario is not a stomp, and is rather decisive. Such is the same here, both have instant wincons rather, but Kisuke's are just better.

High 6-A Golden King versus X-Man with speed equalization. While both have similar statistics and incredible abilities, Golden King's passive abilities make it so that no matter the circumstances or chance, Golden King will always win.

Quite the opposite. This scenario is much the same, and is listed as an example of a stomp. A passive ability leaving no chance for victory.

 

[Arcker123]

Quite the opposite. This scenario is much the same, and is listed as an example of a stomp. A passive ability leaving no chance for victory.

This is disanalagous. X-Man doesn't have any instant wincons like Rick does here, that's why the rule I cited is more apt.

 

[LordGinSama]

In this scenario what is Kisuke's answer to a bomb set to destroy the timeline at the instant the fight starts or something that would kill Rick himself right as the fight starts?

Negate the technology on the bomb before it detonate. Only the explosion would be 2-B, but the actual hardware / technology is still 3-D so using something like an amplified EMP would disable it.

There's also the fact that Rick himself needs to actively press a button for his tech to work, and with RC Kisuke can leave Rick and his clones paralyzed unable to move.

 

[Phoenks]

Negate the technology on the bomb before it detonate. Only the explosion would be 2-B, but the actual hardware / technology is still 3-D so using something like an amplified EMP would disable it.

There's also the fact that Rick himself needs to actively press a button for his tech to work, and with RC Kisuke can leave Rick and his clones paralyzed unable to move.

He wouldn't need to press a button he's made automatic bombs many times before. And if Rick dies he can go to another universe far away to gain another week of prep away from the range of any of Kisuke's abilities.

Anyway I'll be inactive for a while here.

I think this match should be closed personally. I think it's either a stomp or inconclusive.

 

[LordGinSama]

He wouldn't need to press a button he's made automatic bombs many times before. And if Rick dies he can go to another universe far away to gain another week of prep away from the range of any of Kisuke's abilities.

Does Operation Phoneix allow Rick to recover from mind, body and soul destruction? Remember RC targets all 3 fundamental aspects, if the main Rick gets his mind and memories destroyed he wouldn't have his memories to continue the fight. After being exposed and killed by RC he wouldn't Remember Kisuke existed.

Anyway I'll be inactive for a while here.

I think this match should be closed personally. I think it's either a stomp or inconclusive.

Tbh Kisuke probably stomps due to his passives. Rick can't really do anything against his memories and mind being passively destroyed.