Item Profile (The Hōgyoku)

[Excellence616]

Thanks to @Arcker123 for helping out

Excellence616/Hōgyoku

vsbattles.fandom.com

It would be an optional equipment for Kisuke Urahara and Standard Equipment for Sosuke Aizen

Agree: @Arcker123 @Excel616, @Grand_Astartes, @Arc7Kuroi, @KingNanaya, @Spectra_Schiffer, @LuffyRuffy46307, @Bastolan27, @Lynieryz, @AnimesFreak2, @ProfectusInfinity, @Valeska24, @LordGriffin1000, @Mamaroza, @UchihaSlayer96 (2 Staffs)

Disagree

Neutral:

 

[Damage3245]

Reality Warping and Mind Reading (The true power of the Hogyoku is to make the owners desires come true. The Hogyoku is an orb with a mind of it's own and is capable of reading the hearts of those around it. It is capable of granting its master whatever he desires, so long as it is within his abilities[2])

The Hogyoku doesn't just do this for its owner / master. It has done it for other people just in the vicinity of the Hogyoku.

 

[Arcker123]

Agree, though it'd be optional equipment for Kisuke

 

[Arcker123]

The Hogyoku doesn't just do this for its owner / master. It has done it for other people just in the vicinity of the Hogyoku.

This has only happened when the Hogyoku wasn't actually bonded to a master

 

[Grand_Astartes]

Agree with everything above lol

 

[Damage3245]

Aizen's immortality allows him to live past his immense 20,000 year prison sentence[13].

The Hogyoku may not necessarily have done this. Aizen may possibly live over 20,000 years anyway on his own. (And it isn't stated anyway that Aizen definitely would live to the end of his sentence; the 20,000 years is just the sentence they gave him).

 

[Excellence616]

The Hogyoku may not necessarily have done this. Aizen may possibly live over 20,000 years anyway on his own. (And it isn't stated anyway that Aizen definitely would live to the end of his sentence; the 20,000 years is just the sentence they gave him).

The contexts of the scan seems to imply the Hogyoku

 

[Arcker123]

The Hogyoku may not necessarily have done this. Aizen may possibly live over 20,000 years anyway on his own.

It's due to his immortality, which is entirely the Hogyoku.

And besides, you couldn't prove this anyway and it takes more assumptions to say this.

(And it isn't stated anyway that Aizen definitely would live to the end of his sentence; the 20,000 years is just the sentence they gave him).

His Immortality is specifically the reason he was given this sentence. Aizen will not die of old age, that's why C46 is calling him immortal there.

 

[Damage3245]

The contexts of the scan seems to imply the Hogyoku

I don't think that's necessarily the case.

"Don't press your luck just because you're immortal" can just mean "Don't press your luck just because we can't kill you."

 

[Arcker123]

"Don't press your luck just because you're immortal" can just mean "Don't press your luck just because we can't kill you."

The scan is in context to his sentence. Why would I assume the statement is referring to something that is completely irrelevant to what they're talking about?

Again, your arguments require a lot of baseless assumptions. This isn't equal interpretation.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yeah Aizen’s immortality is a strictly Hogyoku thing. Also the Hogyoku read Aizen’s mind? Idk if that was damages contention with mind reading, the contention seemed kinda vague.

I don't think that's necessarily the case.

"Don't press your luck just because you're immortal" can just mean "Don't press your luck just because we can't kill you."

You would need to substantiate that, because Occam’s razor would lead us to presume the most likely interpretation being in reference to the immortality. And that’s ignoring the pre-existing context surrounding Aizen’s immortality.

 

[KingNanaya]

Surprised the hogyoku didn't have a profile before this

 

[Damage3245]

The scan is in context to his sentence. Why would I assume the statement is referring to something that is completely irrelevant to what they're talking about?

Again, your arguments require a lot of baseless assumptions. This isn't equal interpretation.

I've made no baseless assumptions here.

I'm not assuming anything; I said Aizen could probably live to 20,000 years anyway because we know Shinigami have extended lifespans. I'm not asserting that Aizen will definitely live to 20,000.

If you don't like me bringing up the issues I see with a couple of minor details of this proposed page, then call in other staff members to say it's okay with them or not.

 

[Arcker123]

I've made no baseless assumptions here.

I was arguing against this:

"Don't press your luck just because you're immortal" can just mean "Don't press your luck just because we can't kill you."

My criticism is that the alternate interpretation requires more assumptions and those assumptions are completely unjustified and irrelevant to the context of the scan.

I'm not assuming anything; I said Aizen could probably live to 20,000 years anyway because we know Shinigami have extended lifespans. I'm not asserting that Aizen will definitely live to 20,000.

I was never responding to this.

I just said the alternate interpretation you presented as a possibility is flawed because it's inherently more assumptitive.

If you don't like me bringing up the issues I see with a couple of minor details of this proposed page,

I think your arguments are poor, that's all.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The oldest Shinigami that don’t have anything weird going on with them (Ichibe) are like Yamamoto, who looks like an old fart at 2000 years

 

[Damage3245]

@Arcker123; you're entitled to your opinion on my arguments and to your own interpretation of the scans, but I'm not just going to change how I see it to match your interpretation.

I don't think the scans are enough to show that the Hogyoku granted Aizen an undeniably infinite lifespan. I don't think that Occam's Razor supports the other interpretation.

And my issue in the first post on the thread was just the wording of it only being for its master, when it has shown to warp reality for others.

 

[Excellence616]

The oldest Shinigami that don’t have anything weird going on with them (Ichibe) are like Yamamoto, who looks like an old fart at 2000 years

Do you agree with the profile?

 

[Arcker123]

@Arcker123; you're entitled to your opinion on my arguments and to your own interpretation of the scans, but I'm not just going to change how I see it to match your interpretation.

Damage, I promise you I care very little about convincing you of anything, that's a losing game. I just want to show the flaws in your reasoning so other people can vote based on that.

I don't think the scans are enough to show that the Hogyoku granted Aizen an undeniably infinite lifespan. I don't think that Occam's Razor supports the other interpretation.

Immortal in the context of the scan just refers to lifespan, that's the simplest conclusion because sentencing/age is the context in which that was said.

Conclusions like yours require more assumptions that aren't justified, that was the criticism. You can't respond to that by just repeating your claim and not actually showing why your interpretation is better or more justified.

And my issue in the first post on the thread was just the wording of it only being for its master, when it has shown to warp reality for others.

That was within the context of the Hogyoku not having a specific master yet. If you really want, I guess we could add that to the description, but me and Excel found that very useless tbh.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

I agree with topic

 

[KingNanaya]

I agree after looking at the page

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Do you agree with the profile?

On a quick glance it seems fine, I’d call in some more knowledgeable Bleach staff like Tracer and Lephyr

 

[Lynieryz]

Agree FRA

Shouldn't Hōgyoku have space-time resistance/manipulation because of Kōtotsu?

 

[Arcker123]

Agree FRA

Shouldn't Hōgyoku have space-time resistance/manipulation because of Kōtotsu?

That's just an ability it gave Aizen due to it's Reactive Evolution, not an inherent aspect of it.

 

[AnimesFreak2]

Shinigami aren't immortal anyways

So it's definitely the Hogyoku they're talking about

It's what allowed him to literally come back from being erased by Mugetsu

Anyways agree

 

[Lynieryz]

That's just an ability it gave Aizen due to it's Reactive Evolution, not an inherent aspect of it.

Following this same logic, shouldn't the immortalities be removed?

Immortality (Types 1, 2, 3, 4, and 8 - Hōgyoku granted a form of immortality to its master, as shown with Aizen[12]. Aizen's immortality allows him to live past his immense 20,000 year prison sentence[13]. Aizen can survive severe wounds such as a missing arm and hole in his chest without initially regenerating[14]. The immortality and regeneration the Hōgyoku grants is entirely reliant upon it[15], which will keep its master alive even if it were to be stolen from his body, or if they were to sustain mortal damage, forcing him to evolve[16])

 

[Arcker123]

Following this same logic, shouldn't the immortalities be removed?

No because that isn't granted by reactive evolution, and is just something all Hogyou masters would have

Edit: Basically for the same reason we didn't give the Hogyoku EE for being able to raise one's Reiatsu to such potency, we didn't do that for space time resistance. We're not giving the Hogyoku all of transformed Aizen's powers.

 

[Lynieryz]

No because that isn't granted by reactive evolution, and is just something all Hogyou masters would have

Edit: Basically for the same reason we didn't give the Hogyoku EE for being able to raise one's Reiatsu to such potency, we didn't do that for space time resistance. We're not giving the Hogyoku all of transformed Aizen's powers.

I'm pretty sure it's said that the Hōgyoku fulfilled Aizen's wish of becoming immortal but I'm too lazy to look for the chapter, so let it go

 

[Arcker123]

I don't think that's ever stated. The Hogyoku made him immortal before it actually started fulfilling his wishes. Immortality seems to be an ability inherent to becoming a Hogyoku master.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Sounds good, I agree with Op.

 

[Bastolan27]

Agree

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I agree with the profile.

 

[Valeska24]

Agreed

 

[LordGriffin1000]

The profile looks fine.

 

[Deagonx]

I disagree with "universal." The scan simply says:

The Hogyoku - a device that would alter the very world as it fulfilled the desires of those around it.

The citation reads: The Hōgyoku's ability to warp reality through wish granting is capable of affecting the entire Bleach world

There is a world of difference between "affecting the world" and "affecting the entire world." Lots of things can affect the world or alter it. The standard we would use for universal is that it's capable of destroying the entire world, which is not supported by the evidence. In any case, the word "entire" should be removed as it's not in the source material and it isn't a synonym of anything in the actual sentence.

Aside from that, I share Damage's objections.

 

[Amon.vl]

Agree

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I disagree with "universal." The scan simply says:

The citation reads: The Hōgyoku's ability to warp reality through wish granting is capable of affecting the entire Bleach world

There is a world of difference between "affecting the world" and "affecting the entire world." Lots of things can affect the world or alter it. The standard we would use for universal is that it's capable of destroying the entire world, which is not supported by the evidence.

Fair point, I think it depends on the feats of affecting the world.

 

[Arcker123]

There is a world of difference between "affecting the world" and "affecting the entire world." Lots of things can affect the world or alter it. The standard we would use for universal is that it's capable of destroying the entire world, which is not supported by the evidence.

It's says very world, which would imply it's totality. Also no, as long as the Reality warping can significantly affect the world, which is what the scan states, then Universal applies.

It's inherently more assumptitive to say it's affecting only a part when no context or evidence states that.

 

[Deagonx]

It's says very world, which would imply it's totality.

You're mistaken. The word "very" doesn't have any connection to the concept of entirety/totality/completeness. It emphasizes precision/identity/exactness, not totality.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

It's says very world, which would imply it's totality. Also no, as long as the Reality warping can significantly affect the world, which is what the scan states, then Universal applies.

It's inherently more assumptitive to say it's affecting only a part when no context or evidence states that.

That just means it can affect the world itself (reality) but the capacity is up to it's feats.

 

[Arcker123]

You're mistaken. The word "very" doesn't have any connection to the concept of entirety/totality/completeness. It emphasizes precision/identity, not totality.

I dunno where you're getting that from, the word very is defined as "To a very high degree" or "Precsiely" both of which would mean all of it.

Again, it's just incredibly assumptitve to assert it's only affecting parts of it, and we already accept it as having uni range on Aizen's profile so .