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It has to be this way...

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Yeah no, i am 100% positive Yujiro has no stamina feat even remotely comparable to Raiden, and stamina IS a decisive factor, since Yujiro has to beat Raiden down and doesn't have dura-negation\offensive hax to deal with him, so he is ABSOLUTELY going to have to deal with Raiden's stamina

Raiden resisting the illusions isn't a point i made, the point i made is that they would be useless against someone who also has heat vision

"using Instinctive Reaction to dodge Raiden's line of sight", sorry, what? And man, you are seriously overestimating Yujiro's instinctive reactions, you are making him out to be completely untouchable but he's taken more than a few punches in the manga itself

literally only the instictive reactions even remotely lead to Yujiro being able to outmanouvre Raiden, and Raiden is faster (Raiden actually has a very significant speed boost, even if we take out BM), has a 1-hit KO and has far better stamina
 
Twellas said:
Yeah no, i am 100% positive Yujiro has no stamina feat even remotely comparable to Raiden, and stamina IS a decisive factor, since Yujiro has to beat Raiden down and doesn't have dura-negation\offensive hax to deal with him, so he is ABSOLUTELY going to have to deal with Raiden's stamina
Raiden resisting the illusions isn't a point i made, the point i made is that they would be useless against someone who also has heat vision

"using Instinctive Reaction to dodge Raiden's line of sight", sorry, what? And man, you are seriously overestimating Yujiro's instinctive reactions, you are making him out to be completely untouchable but he's taken more than a few punches in the manga itself

literally only the instictive reactions even remotely lead to Yujiro being able to outmanouvre Raiden, and Raiden is faster (Raiden actually has a very significant speed boost, even if we take out BM), has a 1-hit KO and has far better stamina
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Burden of proof, prove it

Heat Vision doesn't make you immune to anything to do with smell, taste, touch, hearing, and the flash bang effect Hanma Demon illusion creates

Look at Yujiro's page, just actually look at the stuff on Yujiro's page, because I don't want to waste posts on the thread explaining stuff that's already on his page

Analytical prediction, enhanced sixth sense, the skill gap, and at least 2.25x Sangan also say no
 
Let me reiterate, Yujiro isn't skilled to the point where he'll walk away without a cut and that's all Jack needs to win here. Also yeah, Baki stamina feats are neato but we never see constant dismemberment, damage to major organs and so on and so forth. Nothing that's happened quite stacks up to ya know a much weaker Raiden fighting against enemies without either one of his arms, incredible blood loss, a pierced lung and heart while also being able to stop Outer Haven.


If Raiden didn't have a weapon that could negate durability I'd actually vote for him because of the skill gap, but all Raiden needs is one single slash and Yujiro has no way of dispatching of Raiden quickly.
 
The Prince of Counters said:
Let me reiterate, Yujiro isn't skilled to the point where he'll walk away without a cut and that's all Jack needs to win here. Also yeah, Baki stamina feats are neato but we never see constant dismemberment, damage to major organs and so on and so forth. Nothing that's happened quite stacks up to ya know a much weaker Raiden fighting against enemies without either one of his arms, incredible blood loss, a pierced lung and heart while also being able to stop Outer Haven.

If Raiden didn't have a weapon that could negate durability I'd actually vote for him because of the skill gap, but all Raiden needs is one single slash and Yujiro has no way of dispatching of Raiden quickly.
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I 100% beg to differ. The skill gap is 100% large enough that if Yujiro wants to avoid getting cut, he can. We've seen characters literally experience death and be okay. Baki's first time dying knocked him out (though not immediately), but subsequent uses of Sword Sim "killing" Baki had greatly reduced effects, and Yujiro's pain tolerance massively up scales from Baki by virtue of their little Benda competition. Also, Hanayama, who would scale slightly under Baki, was shot by 5 different sniper rifles simultaneously, one bullet piercing his heart. After, he was shot in the head, the bullet lodging itself into Hanayama's brain. He then proceeded to bleed out a massive pool of blood, yet he survived and was back fighting the next day, tanking on hundreds of small caliber bullet wounds and bleeding profusely yet again, still able to push a car off a pier, only to walk away fine afterward. Yujiro scales up from Chiharu, who's fighting style literally consists of self mutilation (breaking his own arm just to intimidate someone, getting smashed by a motorcycle to get amped for a fight, and Baki, imitating his style, fractured his skull head butting someone's kick just to break Chiharu's leg, and they both kept fighting as though nothing happened). He upscales from T-Rex, who literally had his nose ripped of and apparently couldn't even feel it. I don't know if these are enough to be considered comparable to Raiden, but the upscaling list takes a long time, Baki being the way it is. If you'd like more, I'll try to find more. There are a few more Yujiro feats directly as well. Raiden's feats are impressive, anybody would be a fool to think otherwise, but in a matter of pain tolerance, Yujiro might be able to match him, or at least be less tolerant but comparable, but there are very few on the site that can actually outskill Yujiro. I think Yujiro would be smarter to play the long game, stacking his amps like Endorphins for pain tolerance and durability increase or Adrenaline for an energy increase and wait for an opening, and use something like the Antonio Driver
 
So, massive skill advantage, quantifiable speed amps (at least 2.25x reaction speed boost with Sangan), unquantifiable speed amps (since RM is being used), Sense manip, and limited invisiblility, and Pseudo Intang, and Instinctive Reaction, and Sixth Sense, and Analytical Prediction vs a 100% oneshot, unquantifiable speed amp (RM is ~7x from what was said earlier in this thread), and a comparable but like higher Stamina

Against 10x and ~7x, ngl, I was starting to think I was alone, but now it's not even a question.

Yujiro takes this, mid-high dif
 
Mate a lot of what you stated is shit that Raiden has already dealt with or has himself. Sense manipulation is countered by Raiden's various methods of increasing his own senses, I'm 99% sure he's detected invisible shit, he's dealt with after image creation and actual intang and most cyborg in Metal Gear already have Analytical Prediction. His attacks are also gonna be a lot harder for Yujiro to dodge since Raiden is gonna be starting off with a notable speed advantage. And back to the skill, Yujiro has been shown to take damage from those who are notably less skilled than Yujiro himself if the opponent is faster such as Pickle and Katsumi.


Stamina isn't comparable at all in the slightest Raiden can quite literally turn his ability to feel pain off, it's something Yujiro is gonna have to deal with regardless. Also a lot of Yujiro's techniques aren't gonna be working here given Raiden's body and various equipment.
 
Twellas said:
Guys, don't forget that Raiden has type 2 immortality and can shrug of lethal damage, that and his speed amps are way better than Yujiro's (10x plus a Rm boost which in-game makes BM at least 5 times faster, don't have an official value tho) and his ap amps are also not ignorable (in game RM is a 7x amp)
Also this: "...Bloodlusted characters fear nothing, and won't hesitate taking injures if it leads to a higher probability of winning a battle." and as we said, 1 hit from an HF blade is game over for Yujiro
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This comment
 
Yujiro should be above him in base and should borderline one-shot in DB

Tbh if we add in the fact DB also amps speed a good lot Yujiro should take this
 
How the hell is he above him in base?

Raiden was literally on the verge of dying when he took 20 Kilotons directly

Yujiro is casually 15
 
Raiden's amps are mathematically superior to Yujiro's, at best he'll be able to cut the gap to an extent but Raiden is still gonna have quite the significant speed advantage. Also votes such as "Yujiro should take this." Baki had the decency to actually put in a reason ( One that doesn't 100% hold up but one nonetheless. ) you haven't KF.
 
Oh, i thought it was a feat done/tanked with effort.

Yujiro is vastly above 15 Kt. They should be about equals while Yujiro is in base.
 
The Prince of Counters said:
Mate a lot of what you stated is shit that Raiden has already dealt with or has himself. Sense manipulation is countered by Raiden's various methods of increasing his own senses, I'm 99% sure he's detected invisible shit, he's dealt with after image creation and actual intang and most cyborg in Metal Gear already have Analytical Prediction. His attacks are also gonna be a lot harder for Yujiro to dodge since Raiden is gonna be starting off with a notable speed advantage. And back to the skill, Yujiro has been shown to take damage from those who are notably less skilled than Yujiro himself if the opponent is faster such as Pickle and Katsumi.


Stamina isn't comparable at all in the slightest Raiden can quite literally turn his ability to feel pain off, it's something Yujiro is gonna have to deal with regardless. Also a lot of Yujiro's techniques aren't gonna be working here given Raiden's body and various equipment.
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That would make their stamina at least comparable, no? And those are some of the lower end stamina feats he upscales from. That doesn't really counter Sense manip, as Yujiro was fooling a Sixth Sense as well, which Raiden doesn't seem to have. If Yujiro is using IR to dodge his line of sight, I don't see how Raiden could even see him. He may have deal with these things in his verse, but that doesn't necessarily mean he can deal with Yujiro's pseudo intang and analytical prediction considering all the other abilities that are accompanying those 2. Speed is equalized in BM, so his only amp to my knowledge is RM, which is unquantifiable from what I've been told. Yujiro has tens of unquantifiable speed amps, but quantifiable ones as well, namely at least 2.25x reaction speed from Sangan. If Raiden even has the speed advantage anymore, it's negligible at this point. Yes, in character. Not bloodlusted. He's never actually tried in a single fight ever before, like not once. The closest he ever got was against Baki, and he blitzed him like twice and beat him to muscle fatigue while only getting a nose bleed and some minor cuts and bruises that may even just be dirt from the scuffle or Baki's blood, as in the last couple of panels, Baki is still massively maimed, but Yujiro is all cleaned up.

And with Endorphins, Yujiro can turn pain into a "good feeling", so I'm not entirely convinced that the gap is that big of a deal
 
Quite a long time considering Raiden has type 2 immortality, better endurance than anyone Yujiro has ever dealt with and the lack of major organs and vital spots Yujiro could typically target. Raiden on the other hand has the most effective way to kill Yujiro.
 
The Prince of Counters said:
Quite a long time considering Raiden has type 2 immortality, better endurance than anyone Yujiro has ever dealt with and the lack of major organs and vital spots Yujiro could typically target. Raiden on the other hand has the most effective way to kill Yujiro.
Click to expand...
Type 2 is good, but Yujiro can oneshot, can use Endorphins to stop pain, and has a massive skill advantage (I've said this so many times, "massive skill advantage is saved into my phone keyboard ovo)
 
The Prince of Counters said:
Demon back is a 4x amp, 15 × 4 is 60. 20 goes into 60 3 times, meaning Yujiro would only be 3x stronger so there ain't no one shotting.
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No, he's vastly above 15 KT and 60 KT, as in he can 2 shot a 15 KT
 
Heart? Yujiro one-shots. Lungs? Yujiro also one-shots. Nerves? Yujiro one-shots. Brain? Yujiro one-shots.

Yeah, he has one-shotting moves for all these and probably more i'm forgetting rn
 


If this was MGS4 Raiden yeah, Rising Raiden dosen't have organs.

A robot then? Does he need to breath?
 
Oblivion Of The Endless said:
BakiHanma18 said:
KGiffoni said:
Heart? Yujiro one-shots. Lungs? Yujiro also one-shots.
Click to expand...
I don't think he has any major organs like that, but Raiden is above 20KT, while Yujiro is vastly above 60KT
Click to expand...
Thats far from a oneshot situation tho
Yujiro is at best 3x or 4x stronger
Click to expand...
It's above 20KT to two-shotting a 60KT. I suppose before I jump the gun, I should ask how far above 20KT
 
KGiffoni said:
Oh, i thought it was a feat done/tanked with effort.

Yujiro is vastly above 15 Kt. They should be about equals while Yujiro is in base.
Click to expand...
Him doing a feat casually puts him above the feat sure, definitely not vastly though
 
The Prince of Counters said:
KGiffoni said:
Heart? Yujiro one-shots. Lungs? Yujiro also one-shots. Nerves? Yujiro one-shots.
Click to expand...


If this was MGS4 Raiden yeah, Rising Raiden dosen't have organs.
Click to expand...
I didn't think so, the boi Rising Raiden is absolutely decked out with an almost 100% robotic body
 
Schnee One said:
KGiffoni said:
Oh, i thought it was a feat done/tanked with effort.

Yujiro is vastly above 15 Kt. They should be about equals while Yujiro is in base.
Click to expand...
Him doing a feat casually puts him above the feat sure, definitely not vastly though
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It was decided in Yujiro's most recent AP CRT that he's vastly above 15KT in base, vastly above 60KT in DB. I don't remember all the reasoning, but it's the currently accepted values
 
Btw, to clear up the thread, who is voting for who and for what reason? Since the BM 10x speed amp isn't a thing anymore, Raiden voters need to revote (things like dura neg are still okay, only the BM speed amp argument is debunked)
 
Alright, let me address Baki's post.


That would make their stamina at least comparable, no? And those are some of the lower end stamina feats he upscales from.


No, in no way would a high pain tolerance equate to the ability to not feel pain at all, this argument is illogical and makes zero sense. Raiden objectively has the better endurance, there is no "comparable" when only one opponent can feel pain. Benda did **** Yujiro up for a moment to the point where he had to stay still for a moment in Baki's fight. Raiden can fight with both his arms completely removed, his heart and lungs stabbed while losing the majority of his blood.


That doesn't really counter Sense manip, as Yujiro was fooling a Sixth Sense as well, which Raiden doesn't seem to have. If Yujiro is using IR to dodge his line of sight, I don't see how Raiden could even see him. He may have deal with these things in his verse, but that doesn't necessarily mean he can deal with Yujiro's pseudo intang and analytical prediction considering all the other abilities that are accompanying those 2.


Um Solid Eye? Actually Raiden has an upgraded variant of the Solid Eye, which actually does indeed grant him a sixth sense, allows him to see the heart beat of enemies, heat signatures, allows him to see the mental state of his opponent. This would also scale way above previous gear that allowed Raiden and co to see ghosts.


Speed is equalized in BM, so his only amp to my knowledge is RM, which is unquantifiable from what I've been told. Yujiro has tens of unquantifiable speed amps, but quantifiable ones as well, namely at least 2.25x reaction speed from Sangan.


Risci already explained the Sagan nonsense to both you and KF. Again, you can't just slap a random number on an amp. Also RM is a 7x amp so yeah, no Yujiro isn't the faster of the two, far from that actually. Your next paragraph is also moot, Jack ain't Baki, Yujiro isn't only getting a cut or a bruise from Jack's slashes.
 
BakiHanma18 said:
Btw, to clear up the thread, who is voting for who and for what reason? Since the BM 10x speed amp isn't a thing anymore, Raiden voters need to revote (things like dura neg are still okay, only the BM speed amp argument is debunked)
Click to expand...
I'll be retracting my vote for now
 
The Prince of Counters said:
Alright, let me address Baki's post.

That would make their stamina at least comparable, no? And those are some of the lower end stamina feats he upscales from.


No, in no way would a high pain tolerance equate to the ability to not feel pain at all, this argument is illogical and makes zero sense. Raiden objectively has the better endurance, there is no "comparable" when only one opponent can feel pain. Benda did **** Yujiro up for a moment to the point where he had to stay still for a moment in Baki's fight. Raiden can fight with both his arms completely removed, his heart and lungs stabbed while losing the majority of his blood.


That doesn't really counter Sense manip, as Yujiro was fooling a Sixth Sense as well, which Raiden doesn't seem to have. If Yujiro is using IR to dodge his line of sight, I don't see how Raiden could even see him. He may have deal with these things in his verse, but that doesn't necessarily mean he can deal with Yujiro's pseudo intang and analytical prediction considering all the other abilities that are accompanying those 2.


Um Solid Eye? Actually Raiden has an upgraded variant of the Solid Eye, which actually does indeed grant him a sixth sense, allows him to see the heart beat of enemies, heat signatures, allows him to see the mental state of his opponent. This would also scale way above previous gear that allowed Raiden and co to see ghosts.


Speed is equalized in BM, so his only amp to my knowledge is RM, which is unquantifiable from what I've been told. Yujiro has tens of unquantifiable speed amps, but quantifiable ones as well, namely at least 2.25x reaction speed from Sangan.


Risci already explained the Sagan nonsense to both you and KF. Again, you can't just slap a random number on an amp. Also RM is a 7x amp so yeah, no Yujiro isn't the faster of the two, far from that actually. Your next paragraph is also moot, Jack ain't Baki, Yujiro isn't only getting a cut or a bruise from Jack's slashes.
Click to expand...
No, the manga even expressly states that Baki's amped Benda didn't do anything, so no, and Endorphins turn pain into pleasure, so moot point

It allows him to see. That's not a Sixth Sense, that's just Enhanced Sight, and Yujiro is literally dodging Raiden's line of sight, so sight based stuff isn't going to work

Okay, now let me explain to you: after that match, I asked about Sangan and it was agree that it was one of the only quantifiable amps of at least 2.25x, so RM's 7x to Yujiro's several blitz level amps and at least 2.25x reaction amp with a massive skill advantage

Edit: I suppose that's fair, as the HF Blade will never hit Yujiro
 
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