It has to be this way...

[KGiffoni]

Correction, that's Information Analysis.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Correction, that's Information Analysis.

Info Analysis as opposed to Enhanced Sight?

 

[KGiffoni]

Yeah.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Yujiro's face quite literally froze, nerves bulged from his face and he stood still for a moment. That's also straight up misinformation, Yujiro is clearly effected by Benda and had to use all of his muscles to overcome it. Checkmate GG.


And said enhanced sight is soemthing Yujiro isn't gonna be able to do shit against, as Jack's are bettee tham Baki's. Also good look dodging his line of sight when Jack has an increased view of the battlefield.


And even with that he'll only be able to shorter the gap to an extent, Raiden's speed is still going to be a lot higher than Yujiro's. And let me remind you Baki, the only reason why Jack isn't on that list is because I'm lazy and metal gear scans can difficult to obtain. Otherwise Jack would be a top contender, that much i can tell you, Yujiro isn't walking away without a single slash.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Yujiro's face quite literally froze, nerves bulged from his face and he stood still for a moment. That's also straight up misinformation, Yujiro is clearly effected by Benda and had to use all of his muscles to overcome it. Checkmate GG.

And said enhanced sight is soemthing Yujiro isn't gonna be able to do shit against, as Jack's are bettee tham Baki's. Also good look dodging his line of sight when Jack has an increased view of the battlefield.


And even with that he'll only be able to shorter the gap to an extent, Raiden's speed is still going to be a lot higher than Yujiro's. And let me remind you Baki, the only reason why Jack isn't on that list is because I'm lazy and metal gear scans can difficult to obtain. Otherwise Jack would be a top contender, that much i can tell you, Yujiro isn't walking away without a single slash.

100% wrong and out of context. If you read what it says, Yujiro simultaneously flexed all of his muscles at once, negating the pain of the attack. He even has resistance to pain manipulation on his page for this exact reason lol

Except he's 1) Manipulating all of Jack's senses, so at the very least his senses will be reduced, and even Baki could dodge the line of sight of Musashi, who is near Yujiro's level of speed, so I'm not sure what that will accomplish

Shorten the gap... by a considerable degree, yes. At least 2.25x knocks that down to at most 4.75x faster, and then the blitz amps come in. Certain characters are even given separate speed ratings for how much faster the move is. And no, Jack isn't on the list because nobody's even mentioned him. Yujiro isn't getting touched

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

The fact that he needed to flex his muscles to mitigate the pain means that he indeed felt that pain. If he wasn't flexing his muscles it would have ****** him, and even them Yujiro still had to stand still for a moment.


That's the issue here, Yujiro has never effected soemthing to that of a Solid Eye, a piece of technology. Raiden's senses aren't going to be manipulation since all of them are given to him by mechanical shit.


4.75x Faster with the amp applying to all of his speed, not just reaction speed. And the issue with Yujiro's amps aside from Sangan ( Which is only reaction speed.) aren't linear and have several notable weaknesses. And no, Jack isn't on the list because i haven't bothered suggesting him, Metal Gear is an incredibly long franchise and finding certain clips is difficult. In other words you'd need to sit down, play all of the games, capture the footage and post them. If time constrains weren't a thing I'd be able to have Jack and the Snakes on top 5 at the very least.


Anyway since neither one of us are gonna budge let's wait for Twellas to comment here again.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Also, for the record, Hitless Blow, or the Perfected Mach Punch, has this on the site

High Hypersonic:

- Musashi (Scales to his calc)


Hypersonic:

- Baki Dou Doppo (Could very slightly tag a casual Musashi)

- Baki Dou Katsumi (Shouldn't be too far behind Doppo)


High Hypersonic+:

- Katsumi with Mach Fist (This speed can only be reached when using the Perfected Mach Fist)

 

[BakiHanma18]

The fact that he needed to flex his muscles to mitigate the pain means that he indeed felt that pain. If he wasn't flexing his muscles it would have ****** him, and even them Yujiro still had to stand still for a moment.


That's the issue here, Yujiro has never effected soemthing to that of a Solid Eye, a piece of technology. Raiden's senses aren't going to be manipulation since all of them are given to him by mechanical shit.


4.75x Faster with the amp applying to all of his speed, not just reaction speed. And the issue with Yujiro's amps aside from Sangan ( Which is only reaction speed.) aren't linear and have several notable weaknesses. And no, Jack isn't on the list because i haven't bothered suggesting him, Metal Gear is an incredibly long franchise and finding certain clips is difficult. In other words you'd need to sit down, play all of the games, capture the footage and post them. If time constrains weren't a thing I'd be able to have Jack and the Snakes on top 5 at the very least.


Anyway since neither one of us are gonna budge let's wait for Twellas to comment here again.

The argument you are making would be like me saying "well, Benda would really hurt Jack if he turned his pain inhibitors off". If Yujiro can resist that level of pain without even needing Endorphins, why wouldn't he, especially in Blood-lusted?

As I said earlier, TVs and smartphones were affected by the sense manipulation, and by that same logic, Solid Eye has never been shown to be able to affect someone that is manipulating sight in a manner that works on technology AND is dodging the enemies line of sight with instinctive reaction

Yujiro only needs his skill and a reaction amp to dodge and evade the blade. Hitless Blow, while linear, also bring Katsumi from Hypersonic to High Hypersonic +, and that's Katsumi who is extraordinarily slower than Yujiro

Ill wait then, everyone deserves a chance to defend their points

 

[BakiHanma18]

Btw for everyone, it would seem in a twisted turn of events, Hitless Blow is ~ a 10x multiplier (at most being 20x, at least being 5x)

SOO Katsumi, as previously stated, goes from Hypersonic to High Hypersonic + with Hitless Blow.

Hypersonic (Mach 5-10) High Hypersonic+ (Mach 50-100)

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

I'm like 100% it doesn't work like that.

 

[BakiHanma18]

I'm like 100% it doesn't work like that.

How does it work?

 

[BakiHanma18]

No Prince pls, don't leave me... I thought I was finally getting the hang of speed amps

 

[Twellas]

The fact that he needed to flex his muscles to mitigate the pain means that he indeed felt that pain. If he wasn't flexing his muscles it would have ****** him, and even them Yujiro still had to stand still for a moment.


That's the issue here, Yujiro has never effected soemthing to that of a Solid Eye, a piece of technology. Raiden's senses aren't going to be manipulation since all of them are given to him by mechanical shit.


4.75x Faster with the amp applying to all of his speed, not just reaction speed. And the issue with Yujiro's amps aside from Sangan ( Which is only reaction speed.) aren't linear and have several notable weaknesses. And no, Jack isn't on the list because i haven't bothered suggesting him, Metal Gear is an incredibly long franchise and finding certain clips is difficult. In other words you'd need to sit down, play all of the games, capture the footage and post them. If time constrains weren't a thing I'd be able to have Jack and the Snakes on top 5 at the very least.


Anyway since neither one of us are gonna budge let's wait for Twellas to comment here again.

I'm gonna comment in a few hours, after I'm done with studying and reading through all the comments

 

[Twellas]

Guys, don't forget that Raiden has type 2 immortality and can shrug of lethal damage, that and his speed amps are way better than Yujiro's (10x plus a Rm boost which in-game makes BM at least 5 times faster, don't have an official value tho) and his ap amps are also not ignorable (in game RM is a 7x amp)
Also this: "...Bloodlusted characters fear nothing, and won't hesitate taking injures if it leads to a higher probability of winning a battle." and as we said, 1 hit from an HF blade is game over for Yujiro

This comment

Rm is not a 7x to speed, it's 7x Ap and resistence, as i said, the multiplier is not official but it's from the game, where RM CONSISTENTLY makes Raiden's attacks do 7 times the damage he does in normal, as well as being portrayed as a significant boost (Monsoon went from bullying him and making fun of him to "yeah, this guy is gonna kill me for sure" as soon as he went RM); the speed amp is probably superior but hard to gauge properly, but in-game RM BM is ridiculously faster than normal BM to the point where enemies are basically frozen in place, from the looks of it it could EASILY be 10x. I supposed the difference in speed between base and RM BM could be calc'd but i wouldn't know how.

RM being considered 7x leads me to ask, is Yujiro even on par in terms of AP after Raiden goes RM? Because iirc DB made Yujiro like vastly above 70kt whereas RM makes Raiden vastly above 140kt

And as to how much superior to 20kt Raiden is, he tanked the 20kt explosion while half dead, after being lynched for 5 minutes by a guy who can no-sell (literally) said explosion point-blank and suffered literally no permanent damage whatsoever, he then proceded to beat the snot out of said guy and rip his heart out, bypassing his durability-negating-negation (that's a mouthful) hax in the process

Oh and Raiden has ridiculous accelerated development, did anyone mention that? He went from getting hundreds of punches no-sold to knocking armstrong to the ground with a single punch in the span of less than a minute

 

[Twellas]

And before people ask, yes, Monsoon 100% knew he was going to die from the get-go, he is clearly disturbed by Raiden, he stops Sam (who is weaker than him) from fighting Jack in that state, telling him to "report back to the chief" (and since AS SOON as we kill Monsoon Sundowner already knows it happened, which never happens for any other WOD we kill before, it's fair to say that Sam's "reporting" consisted of him saying something along the lines of "Jack is gonna beat Monsoon"). To top it all off when Raiden goes RM Monsoon tries to have his grunts cheap-shot him while he has his edgy monologue, which is the single most out-of-character thing to do for a WOD who is not sure he's gonna get his shit kicked-in, since literally ALL WODS wanna do is fight. Monsoon being slightly (and i do means slightly) snarky during the fight is irrelevant since we know that sass is one of the effect of the fear inhibiting nano-machines (we see this with every single grunt we meet in-game)

 

[BakiHanma18]

Guys, don't forget that Raiden has type 2 immortality and can shrug of lethal damage, that and his speed amps are way better than Yujiro's (10x plus a Rm boost which in-game makes BM at least 5 times faster, don't have an official value tho) and his ap amps are also not ignorable (in game RM is a 7x amp)
Also this: "...Bloodlusted characters fear nothing, and won't hesitate taking injures if it leads to a higher probability of winning a battle." and as we said, 1 hit from an HF blade is game over for Yujiro

This comment

Rm is not a 7x to speed, it's 7x Ap and resistence, as i said, the multiplier is not official but it's from the game, where RM CONSISTENTLY makes Raiden's attacks do 7 times the damage he does in normal, as well as being portrayed as a significant boost (Monsoon went from bullying him and making fun of him to "yeah, this guy is gonna kill me for sure" as soon as he went RM); the speed amp is probably superior but hard to gauge properly, but in-game RM BM is ridiculously faster than normal BM to the point where enemies are basically frozen in place, from the looks of it it could EASILY be 10x. I supposed the difference in speed between base and RM BM could be calc'd but i wouldn't know how.
RM being considered 7x leads me to ask, is Yujiro even on par in terms of AP after Raiden goes RM? Because iirc DB made Yujiro like vastly above 70kt whereas RM makes Raiden vastly above 140kt

And as to how much superior to 20kt Raiden is, he tanked the 20kt explosion while half dead, after being lynched for 5 minutes by a guy who can no-sell (literally) said explosion point-blank and suffered literally no permanent damage whatsoever, he then proceded to beat the snot out of said guy and rip his heart out, bypassing his durability-negating-negation (that's a mouthful) hax in the process

Oh and Raiden has ridiculous accelerated development, did anyone mention that? He went from getting hundreds of punches no-sold to knocking armstrong to the ground with a single punch in the span of less than a minute

I'll try to keep my response brief

My apologies about the Speed/AP confusion. That said, if it IS indeed 7x, that is a good amp, but amps in strength is a large majority of Yujiro's stat amping moves. Take for example the Hitless Blow that may possibly be ~10x speed amp, it amps Katsumi from at least High 8-C to 7-C, or with the use of Antonio Driver, Raiden could possibly be put in a compromising position with his head stuck in the ground

So to say somewhere in the realm of 25-60 KT would be fair?

Yujiro has AD as well, though to what degree is unclear. Apparently, his skill constantly improves

 

[BakiHanma18]

And before people ask, yes, Monsoon 100% knew he was going to die from the get-go, he is clearly disturbed by Raiden, he stops Sam (who is weaker than him) from fighting Jack in that state, telling him to "report back to the chief" (and since AS SOON as we kill Monsoon Sundowner already knows it happened, which never happens for any other WOD we kill before, it's fair to say that Sam's "reporting" consisted of him saying something along the lines of "Jack is gonna beat Monsoon"). To top it all off when Raiden goes RM Monsoon tries to have his grunts cheap-shot him while he has his edgy monologue, which is the single most out-of-character thing to do for a WOD who is not sure he's gonna get his shit kicked-in, since literally ALL WODS wanna do is fight. Monsoon being slightly (and i do means slightly) snarky during the fight is irrelevant since we know that sass is one of the effect of the fear inhibiting nano-machines (we see this with every single grunt we meet in-game)

If RM is currently unquantifiable on the site, I'm slightly cautious of using the game's stated 7x, but since Yujiro's unquantifiable amps are being included, I'd say it's fair to include RM at ~7x

 

[BakiHanma18]

I will not be able to respond for a bit because I have morning class, but I'll respond to anything you leave here

 

[KGiffoni]

Oh and Raiden has ridiculous accelerated development, did anyone mention that? He went from getting hundreds of punches no-sold to knocking armstrong to the ground with a single punch in the span of less than a minute

That's Reactive Evolution actually

 

[Twellas]

Oh and Raiden has ridiculous accelerated development, did anyone mention that? He went from getting hundreds of punches no-sold to knocking armstrong to the ground with a single punch in the span of less than a minute

That's Reactive Evolution actually
oh ok, still, Raiden's AP grown significantly in a VERY short amount of time, so even if Yujiro can deal with this already pretty ridiculous AP difference with his few AP-boosting attacks (which Raiden would pick up on sooner or later, let's not forget that he's still an insanely skilled martial artist despite not really being on Yujiro's level) Raiden eventually just grows to the point of no-selling even those attacks which STILL wouldn't be able to put him down due to immortality

 

[BakiHanma18]

I've got time for one more comment, then I'll be back in ~ an hour.

The long game isn't going to go well for Raiden, because the stronger Raiden gets, the stronger and faster all of Yujiro's strength and speed amps will get, as well as it becomes even less likely that Raiden can hit him all while Yujiro starts to figure out everything Raiden can do and his weaknesses. The fact that AD increases specifically Yujiro's skill makes it a bad ideas for Raiden to try to wait him out. A better win con would be if Raiden had some way to finish Yujiro quickly.

 

[Twellas]

I've got time for one more comment, then I'll be back in ~ an hour.
The long game isn't going to go well for Raiden, because the stronger Raiden gets, the stronger and faster all of Yujiro's strength and speed amps will get, as well as it becomes even less likely that Raiden can hit him all while Yujiro starts to figure out everything Raiden can do and his weaknesses. The fact that AD increases specifically Yujiro's skill makes it a bad ideas for Raiden to try to wait him out. A better win con would be if Raiden had some way to finish Yujiro quickly.

Raiden would 100% NOT wait out at all given that he can oneshot Yujiro at any time with a single sword stroke and he LITERALLY starts the fight right off the bat by swinging at least 5 times faster than Yujiro cam move. What I'm saying is that if it DOES come to that, Raiden grows ridiculously stronger and I don't think yujiro has a growing feat on par with Raiden's, this along with the fact that Raiden is the faster character by a significant margin would make the long run borderline impossible for Yujiro because at a certain point Raiden (who is already vastly stronger in both AP and resistence while in RM) is going to grow to the point of 1-hit-KOing him.

And honestly, the argument about Yujiro using instinctive reactions and pseudo-prediction to just dodge EVERY slash from Raiden is very NLF, as we see him getting hit in the manga by people who are just comparable to him (and don't say that he simply didn't use IR because if he somehow "shut it off" it means that it's not instincitve), saying that he could just dodge a barrage of attacks that are each faster than him by a significant margin is a stretch to say the least

 

[Twellas]

And as the last nail in the coffin of the "IR can let him dodge the faster RMBM slashes", we have the fact that BM gives Raiden automatic analysis of the best cutting position against his opponent

 

[BakiHanma18]

I've got time for one more comment, then I'll be back in ~ an hour.
The long game isn't going to go well for Raiden, because the stronger Raiden gets, the stronger and faster all of Yujiro's strength and speed amps will get, as well as it becomes even less likely that Raiden can hit him all while Yujiro starts to figure out everything Raiden can do and his weaknesses. The fact that AD increases specifically Yujiro's skill makes it a bad ideas for Raiden to try to wait him out. A better win con would be if Raiden had some way to finish Yujiro quickly.

Raiden would 100% NOT wait out at all given that he can oneshot Yujiro at any time with a single sword stroke and he LITERALLY starts the fight right off the bat by swinging at least 5 times faster than Yujiro cam move. What I'm saying is that if it DOES come to that, Raiden grows ridiculously stronger and I don't think yujiro has a growing feat on par with Raiden's, this along with the fact that Raiden is the faster character by a significant margin would make the long run borderline impossible for Yujiro because at a certain point Raiden (who is already vastly stronger in both AP and resistence while in RM) is going to grow to the point of 1-hit-KOing him.
And honestly, the argument about Yujiro using instinctive reactions and pseudo-prediction to just dodge EVERY slash from Raiden is very NLF, as we see him getting hit in the manga by people who are just comparable to him (and don't say that he simply didn't use IR because if he somehow "shut it off" it means that it's not instincitve), saying that he could just dodge a barrage of attacks that are each faster than him by a significant margin is a stretch to say the least

Some corrections to this: No, he does not start at least 5x faster than Yujiro, he has a thought-based amp of possibly 7x, although we established that it's accepted on this site as unquantifiable. Next, Yujiro has a confirmed thought-based reaction speed amp of at least 2.25x, meaning at most, Raiden is possibly 4.75x faster. Next, the skill gap starts ridiculously high, so while Raiden can gain a significant advantage in stats, the likelyhood of Raiden ever touching Yujiro gets slimmer as time passes, whereas Yujiro can use his strength amping skills or speed amping skills, which as time passes are getting stronger and faster, to defeat Raiden. Raiden is not the faster of the two if Yujiro uses Hitless Blow, which is at least a 5x speed amp or at most a 20x speed amp, also amping strength insanely. Katsumi, who at the time should be no stronger than Prime Doppo, an at least High 8-C who himself should be no more than 8-B, was amped to 7-C. That's almost 600x stronger.

Seeing as I know much more about the verse, I will explain to you how the PI and IR works: his PI upscales from Baki, so in character he doesn't use it, and he can choose to activate or turn off IR. Baki does it on 4 different occasions... The attacks aren't even that much faster than his reaction speed, and with the massive skill gap, it's actually more than reasonable

 

[BakiHanma18]

And as the last nail in the coffin of the "IR can let him dodge the faster RMBM slashes", we have the fact that BM gives Raiden automatic analysis of the best cutting position against his opponent

Lol that's not a "nail in the coffin", that's the best cutting position before Yujiro reacts, which is kinda what Instinctive Reaction is

 

[Twellas]

I don't see why Raiden's 7x multiplier can't be applied when it's based on consistently shown calcs, and almost all of Yujiro's amps are also not official. Man, you are REALLY underestimating how much of a difference being 5 times faster makes in a fight, you talk about it as if it was irrelevant, and I would agree if Yujiro had ever dealt with people who are faster than him, but that's not the case, he's never had to deal with anyone even slightly faster than he is, let alone 5 times. You are also overestimating the skill gap, you are presenting Raiden like some incapable idiot, he's still leagues better than the best swordsman that ever lived and an expert, street-wise fighter, saying that he wouldn't be able to land A SINGLE HIT while also being 5 times faster than Yujiro is just ridiculous. Raiden's AD (or Reactive Evolution, however you wanna call this) is absolutely ridiculous and I am fairly sure that yujiro's has never displayed this level of increase (if he did then show me, did Yujiro's AD ever bring him from being no-sold to being stronger than his opponent in the span of a minute or so?). Didn't the Hitless Blow cause crazy damage to the user? And has Yujiro ever even used it? Because from what I can tell half of the abilities you are mentioning he never actully uses and are just upscaling from other people. The upscaling is undoubtedly legit, but saying that he would immediately just go for that when he's never used the ability himself is fallacious to say the least.

 

[Twellas]

And as the last nail in the coffin of the "IR can let him dodge the faster RMBM slashes", we have the fact that BM gives Raiden automatic analysis of the best cutting position against his opponent

Lol that's not a "nail in the coffin", that's the best cutting position before Yujiro reacts, which is kinda what Instinctive Reaction is

even if we say that yujiro reacts before the slash starts, Raiden would be analysing the most efficient cutting position during the reaction, making it even more effective

 

[BakiHanma18]

I don't see why Raiden's 7x multiplier can't be applied when it's based on consistently shown calcs, and almost all of Yujiro's amps are also not official. Man, you are REALLY underestimating how much of a difference being 5 times faster makes in a fight, you talk about it as if it was irrelevant, and I would agree if Yujiro had ever dealt with people who are faster than him, but that's not the case, he's never had to deal with anyone even slightly faster than he is, let alone 5 times. You are also overestimating the skill gap, you are presenting Raiden like some incapable idiot, he's still leagues better than the best swordsman that ever lived and an expert, street-wise fighter, saying that he wouldn't be able to land A SINGLE HIT while also being 5 times faster than Yujiro is just ridiculous.
Raiden's AD (or Reactive Evolution, however you wanna call this) is absolutely ridiculous and I am fairly sure that yujiro's has never displayed this level of increase (if he did then show me, did Yujiro's AD ever bring him from being no-sold to being stronger than his opponent in the span of a minute or so?). Didn't the Hitless Blow cause crazy damage to the user? And has Yujiro ever even used it? Because from what I can tell half of the abilities you are mentioning he never actully uses and are just upscaling from other people. The upscaling is undoubtedly legit, but saying that he would immediately just go for that when he's never used the ability himself is fallacious to say the least.

Sorry bro, had to go to my last class

The amp can be used, but the 7x multiplier isn't accepted on the site. I'm not so much of an ass that I'd say it can't be used, as I tend to have more fun in a debate when the odds are stack against me, but it should be noted for technical reasons. This is also true, but the amps I've used so far, Sangan and Hitless Blow, are accepted and scaled off of values this site uses respectively. No, I get it, a ~5x difference is a kinda big deal, but if the fight was of even speed, this might end up being a stomp. The 5x difference is good for Raiden to be able to control the pace of the fight and stop any spacing Yujiro might try, but Yujiro's amps would still cause trouble for Raiden regardless, and the skill gap is enough to keep Yujiro's head above the water against 5x, hell, earlier I was making a decent defense against a 10x faster Raiden. This is true, and one of Yujiro's biggest faults: he's never fought anyone faster or stronger, but from his fight with Baki and Kaku Kaioh, at the very least he's fought people who can either match him for a short period (Baki), or people who make up for their inferiority in other ways (in Kaku v Yujiro, Yujiro used 0 skill to make it an even fight, as skill comparable to Yujiro was all Kaku really had. Kaku fighting someone more skilled, faster, and millions of times stronger would've been no fun for Yujiro). No, I'm not exactly familiar with Raiden, but I'm quite the MGS fan, and I also know he is one of the most skilled people in a verse of people like Big Boss and Snake who can both outskill and outmaneuver entire armies by themselves. Skill feats like this, in my thinking, are fodder to Raiden (I assume he is capable of that, but on a scale millions of times higher, or skill feats even more impressive). That said, the skill gap is correct, Yujiro outskills him horribly. The upscaling in terms of skill in the Bakiverse to the God tier, Yujiro, is absolutely ludicrous. I promise you, I'm not overselling. The main difference is that Raiden has awesome equipment and powers, whereas Yujiro basically only has like 2 things that can be considered superpowers: Demon Back and Demon Brain. Other than that, Yujiro relies 100% on strength, speed, and skill. Oh no, his AD doesn't make him faster or stronger, it makes him more skilled. We don't know what the increase rate is, but it's constantly happening. The only stat increases he would get is on his moves that amp. Without using any skills or techniques, he just becomes harder to hit. To address the damage, it won't be an issue. It's stated the damage is from breaking the sound barrier (Tokugawa thought it was from Katsumi hitting Pickle's hard muscles, but it was explained to be the sound barrier). Yujiro during the Baki fight casually punches through the sound barrier with no ill effect. To address it's use, normally it's extremely out of character, that being the main reason he lost to Jack in the first thread. This thread is blood lusted however, so as the move is one of the best in the series, Yujiro is sure to use it to secure victory

 

[BakiHanma18]

And as the last nail in the coffin of the "IR can let him dodge the faster RMBM slashes", we have the fact that BM gives Raiden automatic analysis of the best cutting position against his opponent

Lol that's not a "nail in the coffin", that's the best cutting position before Yujiro reacts, which is kinda what Instinctive Reaction is

even if we say that yujiro reacts before the slash starts, Raiden would be analysing the most efficient cutting position during the reaction, making it even more effective

And Yujiro would IR the change. If it was a normal dodge or what have you, I'd be skeptical to say Yujiro could react to the reaction of Yujiro reacting to the initial attack, but he's a master of Body Control and he has IR

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Okay I'm seeing a lot of wrong shit, first of all no, Yujiro doesn't have access to amps that boost him 600 fold. That's blatant wank at it's finest and I mean that with no disrespect but it's flat out wrong and strikes me as a desperate attempt at wank. What Risci expained to you and KF also applies to AP, scaling like that is a huge no no. Now I'll address some points here.


The argument you are making would be like me saying "well, Benda would really hurt Jack if he turned his pain inhibitors off". If Yujiro can resist that level of pain without even needing Endorphins, why wouldn't he, especially in Blood-lusted?.


Golden Mean Fallacy, Jack would remain completely unaffected by Benda, his pain tolerance already scales way above what Benda can do and he has the ability to not feel pain at all, Yujiro on the other hand ca and does feel pain, he can just overwrite it by flexing all of his muscles and as we saw with Baki, Yujiro had to stay still for a moment.


As I said earlier, TVs and smartphones were affected by the sense manipulation, and by that same logic, Solid Eye has never been shown to be able to affect someone that is manipulating sight in a manner that works on technology AND is dodging the enemies line of sight with instinctive Reaction


Multiple issues here, for starter's sense manipulation isn't gonna be doing shit to Jack's Solid Eye, said technology is way more advanced than what Yujiro has affected, the gap between technology in Baki and Metal Gear is absolutely massive and this is the same piece of gear that's worked without issues through EPM's and a literal hallway of microwaves that could vaporize humans. Jack's gear scales way above of what the Solid Eye is capable of. Also Yujiro shouldn't even have IR, he has a ton of anti feats of not auto dodging or flat out being hit, IR isn't an ability you can turn off so I'll have to make a thread regarding this, also good luck dodgding the line of sight whenever Raiden doesn't even need his eyesight and said eyesight already has a massive increased view of the battlefield.


About the skill thing, let me remimd you Jack's feats should be comparable to that of Musashi's, who in his own right was able to fend off Yujiro to an extent. You also seem to be ignoring me with i say that Jack should be on the most skilled list but i genuinely don't have the time to play through all of the games to gather scans. And Raiden ( Jack. ) was trained by Solidus Snake who's directly stated to be the best swordsman in existence, Jack yeeted on him in his human body, Jack has direct training from Solid Snake, a man who was cloned from Big Boss himself and invented Close Quarters Combat. Solid Snake himself has a bunch of feats and crazy ones at that, trust me when I say that the skill gap isn't big enough to the point where Yujiro walks away from this un damaged. While human Jack was able to beat Solidus, who had an exoskeleton which essentially combines both Xiao Lee and IR, think of Kaku who with the ability to use Xiao Lee instinctively.

 

[Twellas]

I won't mention your comment because it's way too long and we'd bog down the thread

"The amp can be used, but the 7x multiplier isn't accepted on the site. I'm not so much of an ass that I'd say it can't be used, as I tend to have more fun in a debate when the odds are stack against me, but it should be noted for technical reasons"

I mean, neither are yours on Yujiro himself, what tells you that the Hitless Blow isn't just a plain 7-C attack? What tells you that it's a multiplier to the user's strength? What tells you said multiplier would apply to Yujiro himself? All of your amps require a degree of speculation, I think it's kinda disengenuous to dismiss a mathematically-acquired, consistently displayed multiplier that surely applies to the character, especially when we KNOW RM is a significant boost.

"He's never fought anyone faster or stronger, but from his fight with Baki and Kaku Kaioh, at the very least he's fought people who can either match him for a short period"

This isn't even comparable to someone who is 5 times faster, and keep in mind that those characters were also 1- known to Yujiro beforehand 2- weaker overall 3- nowhere near as aggressive as Raiden is going to be, because here Raiden, who is already borderline psychotic in his RM mode as it is, is not gonna stop to evaluate stategies, talk with him or anything of the sort. Yujiro never found himself in a situation such as this, and even saying that his IR is going to work on someone with such a speed lead is pure speculation, as we've never seen Yujiro doing anything even remotely close to that.

"That said, the skill gap is correct, Yujiro outskills him horribly. The upscaling in terms of skill in the Bakiverse to the God tier, Yujiro, is absolutely ludicrous. I promise you, I'm not overselling"

I know Yujiro is crazy skilled and superior to Raiden, all I'm saying is that the idea that Raiden wouldn't be able to land A SINGLE HIT while bloodlusted out of his mind, 5 times faster than his opponent and with an automatic analysis that tells him the best way to attack is a little silly to say the least, especially when Yujiro has never shown himself to be a dodging guru or anything of the sort, also the fact that Bloodlusted characters are willing to trade blows if they think it's gonna help them during the fight is a full on disadvantage for Yujiro because as soon as he does that (say, trading a hitless blow for a sword stroke) he's dead

"Oh no, his AD doesn't make him faster or stronger, it makes him more skilled. We don't know what the increase rate is, but it's constantly happening. The only stat increases he would get is on his moves that amp"

Well that's bad news, because Raiden becomes exponentially stronger and (probably less so, but still significantly) faster to the point of going from being no-sold to punching his opponent's teeth out in the span of a minute at best. Yujiro would become more nimble and capable of moving around, but eventually he's gonna find himself in a situation where Raiden can no-sell his attacks and he massively (even more than he already does) outspeeds him, at that point it would become a stamina struggle and we already know beyond a shadow of a doubt who would win such a contest, right?

"To address it's use, normally it's extremely out of character, that being the main reason he lost to Jack in the first thread. This thread is blood lusted however, so as the move is one of the best in the series, Yujiro is sure to use it to secure victory"

What I'm saying is that using an ability the character has NEVER used in canon as a win-condition is pretty disengenuous. I also have issues with the concept of Hitless Blow being a speed amp, nothing implies that the attack makes you faster or anything of the sort, all we know is that it makes you reach a certain speed when using it, that's it. Along with this, Raiden has immortality, he can shrug off lethal damage to a certain extent

"And Yujiro would IR the change"

i don't even need to comment this, you yourself seem to realize how big of a stretch that is, it would be a stretch on an attack of equal speed to his own, let alone one that is 5 times faster than himself. Also remember that it's not gonna be 1 strike, not 2, not 3, it's gonna be a true barrage, he may "IR" the change of 1, MAYBE 2, but after that it's just not feasable.

Honestly, there is no proof of Yujiro's IR working on opponents who are faster to this extent and we've seen him get hit against opponents who are merely comparable to him, this, along with the fact that Raiden's slashes are going to be aimed at the single most optimal place to maximise damage and efficacy makes the concept of Yujiro escaping his BM just ludicrous. Add to this the fact that raiden has a significant range, lifting strength and stamina advantage along with an AD that makes his power grow exponentially

 

[Twellas]

@Prince

Calm down mate, no need to get aggressive

 

[BakiHanma18]

Okay I'm seeing a lot of wrong shit, first of all no, Yujiro doesn't have access to amps that boost him 600 fold. That's blatant wank at it's finest and I mean that with no disrespect but it's flat out wrong and strikes me as a desperate attempt at wank. What Risci expained to you and KF also applies to AP, scaling like that is a huge no no. Now I'll address some points here.


The argument you are making would be like me saying "well, Benda would really hurt Jack if he turned his pain inhibitors off". If Yujiro can resist that level of pain without even needing Endorphins, why wouldn't he, especially in Blood-lusted?.


Golden Mean Fallacy, Jack would remain completely unaffected by Benda, his pain tolerance already scales way above what Benda can do and he has the ability to not feel pain at all, Yujiro on the other hand ca and does feel pain, he can just overwrite it by flexing all of his muscles and as we saw with Baki, Yujiro had to stay still for a moment.


As I said earlier, TVs and smartphones were affected by the sense manipulation, and by that same logic, Solid Eye has never been shown to be able to affect someone that is manipulating sight in a manner that works on technology AND is dodging the enemies line of sight with instinctive Reaction


Multiple issues here, for starter's sense manipulation isn't gonna be doing shit to Jack's Solid Eye, said technology is way more advanced than what Yujiro has affected, the gap between technology in Baki and Metal Gear is absolutely massive and this is the same piece of gear that's worked without issues through EPM's and a literal hallway of microwaves that could vaporize humans. Jack's gear scales way above of what the Solid Eye is capable of. Also Yujiro shouldn't even have IR, he has a ton of anti feats of not auto dodging or flat out being hit, IR isn't an ability you can turn off so I'll have to make a thread regarding this, also good luck dodgding the line of sight whenever Raiden doesn't even need his eyesight and said eyesight already has a massive increased view of the battlefield.


About the skill thing, let me remimd you Jack's feats should be comparable to that of Musashi's, who in his own right was able to fend off Yujiro to an extent. You also seem to be ignoring me with i say that Jack should be on the most skilled list but i genuinely don't have the time to play through all of the games to gather scans. And Raiden ( Jack. ) was trained by Solidus Snake who's directly stated to be the best swordsman in existence, Jack yeeted on him in his human body, Jack has direct training from Solid Snake, a man who was cloned from Big Boss himself and invented Close Quarters Combat. Solid Snake himself has a bunch of feats and crazy ones at that, trust me when I say that the skill gap isn't big enough to the point where Yujiro walks away from this un damaged. While human Jack was able to beat Solidus, who had an exoskeleton which essentially combines both Xiao Lee and IR, think of Kaku who with the ability to use Xiao Lee instinctively.

Okay, but the gap from High 8-C to 7-C is well over 600x, but Mach Punch takes even Katsumi from High 8-C to 7-C, as I posted earlier. Here's the AP page if you want to check yourself https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_Potency

Burden of Proof fallacy. I have not heard anything so far to indicate that he could tank something like Benda from someone like Baki or Yujiro, who are comparable in AP and both used an amped version. Jack's inhibitors are his saving grace

Is there proof that Sense manip actually doesn't work? A piece of machinery being more advanced in no way indicates that it gains a resistance to a hax. First off, he has it, we did a CRT, and it was accepted, second off, Baki literally describes the ability as his body moving on its own. Third, someone being hit doesn't mean they don't have IR, or else a vast majority of people who have it on their pages wouldn't have it. Finally, I still yet to see how that's an issue, as Baki could vanish from a crowd of people AND he could vanish from Musashi, who is much faster.

Musashi=/= Jack just because of the "best swordsman" feat. That's an Association Fallacy. Even if he were Musashi's equal, Yujiro scales up from Musashi in every stat. Again, no. George's feats of being the best swordsman is exclusive to his verse and Big Boss definitely didn't invent CQC, he just invented a military style of CQC, as CQC is, without even googling it, at least as old as Greece with their Pankeration. What are actual skill feats Jack has?

 

[KGiffoni]

Jack isn't comparable to Musashi in skill. You shouldn't just go around saying "it should be" without any reasoning or arguing behind it.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

1: That just means that he has access to a 7-C attack, not that the hit is a 600x amp, again this isn't how that works.


2: Jack can most certainly tank Benda from Baki and Yujiro, not that it would effect him given that Yujiro would be smacking solid metal. pain isn't something that effects Raiden, a much weaker version of Jack could fight with a bunch of blood loss, two missing arms and major damage done to his organs all while fighting against a regenerating opponent like Vamp. Again, Raiden objectively has the better pain tolerance between the two. Nothing you posted for Baki's stamina feats come close to what Raiden had to endure.


3: You made the claim that Yujiro's sense manipulation would interfere with the Solid Eye when it has several feats of working when it shouldn't be working to begin with. Also if you don't mind could I see the scana for Yujiro effecting said TV's and smart phones? The Solid Eye was working perfectly in EMP fields and super-microwaves, both of which were designed to jam said device and stop it from working. Also it doesn't matter that it got accepted, CRT's can be made at any given time and that shouldn't be the case, perfect example being Goku's UI who can dodge everything aside from opponents who are that much faster. Baki landed several blows to Yujiro without being the faster of the two throughout the fight. Jack ain't a crowd of people so that's a moot point, and again that's in a fight where speed isn't Equalized and Musashi's senses aren't comparable to that of Raiden's analysis. Also Raiden has experience in dealing with opponents who are straight up invisible, even as a human. Enemies that he can't see isn't something new to him even if we go down this path.


Not really, the swordsmanship statement is just supportive evidence. Solidus scales above a vast majority of skilled swordsman, and can tango with people like Snake and such. Also that's a pretty silly claim whenever it's directly stated that Big Boss straight up invented it, not a variant of it. And your using real life history and applying it to a verse where it doesn't apply, in other words you yourself are using an Association Fallacy. Gimme a bit and I'll post em here, me also likes how you haven't paid attention to the other tid bits.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Jack isn't comparable to Musashi in skill. You shouldn't just go around saying "it should be" without any reasoning or arguing behind it.

Oh boy, you're about to look stupid lol.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Hitless Blow is a plain 7-C attack, used by a High 8-C character. The move obviously amps the user's strength, or else Katsumi would never be able to hurt Pickle, so there is no reason that Yujiro, who starts at 7-C, shouldn't get this amp as well. As far as RM, we know it's significant, but when actually calc'd it could be less than 7x, or it could be more. I say we use it as 7x, but to not mention that it has no accepted calc would be disingenuous

1 The reverse is true for Baki and Kaku was using his own strength against him. 2 He literally used only brute strength against Kaku other than to belittle him with Xiao-Lee mastery, and the majority of times Yujiro uses a skill vs Baki, he was just doing it to show Baki he knows every move he has. In this fight, he's going to use any skill or amp to win. 3 Yujiro is going to be just as aggressive. This is a BL DB Yujiro we're talking about. Just to not show weakness to Baki once, Yujiro beat the living shit out of Doppo, ripped out his eye, and killed him. That was because Baki was watching, imagine him in the state he'll be in as BL. As far as IR, no, Yujiro hasn't IR'd someone faster, but Baki, from whom he gets this ability and upscales from, used it to disappear from FP Musashi's sight, who is comparable to Yujiro in speed

Thats my point. I think if the sword would badly injure him, or something of that degree, and he could tell, this would be a very different story, but Yujiro can't even tell what the sword is made of, let alone what it would do to him. Allowing that sword to touch him could mean instant loss, so avoiding the sword would be the no 1 objective. In that instance, he skill upscales from some pretty talented dodgers

Not exactly, as the amps would still increase, Hitless Blow being insanely high for amps (it's being debated how high rn, but the site's page for AP would agree with ~600x). As far as stamina, no, Yujiro has Adrenaline to give him energy and Endorphins to nullify muscle pain.

Thats why Raiden won non BL. The character has the move, as agreed in a CRT for the verse, he just never uses it because there's never been a reason to. Honestly, Yujiro's a bit of a dick: he either squashes you with strength and speed, or casually beats your ass with your own moves in character. As far as the speed amp, I'd like to clarify something, as we seem to have a misunderstanding: only the punch is amped 10x. Yujiro's regular moves are still the same speed, his travel and reaction speed are unaffected, but the punch itself is 10x faster than a normal Yujiro punch. As far as Imm type 2, isn't Raiden's human part the weakness? Yujiro would be able to Info Analysis any human part and use that.

I already addressed IR, so I'll leave that point be. The range advantage can't be that great, the guys not 10 feet away where unscathed, right? I addressed stamina, so I'll leave that be. And remember, this isn't just IR, it's IR, Analytical Prediction, Enhanced Sixth Sense, Pseudo Intang, and the skill gap. Just IR is one thing, I don't know how well it would help against a 5x disadvantage, but with everything else? Yujiro should be fine

 

[BakiHanma18]

Jack isn't comparable to Musashi in skill. You shouldn't just go around saying "it should be" without any reasoning or arguing behind it.

Agreed

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Shall continue the skill debate on the skill thread itself, I'll take the hours of time it'll take to gather the scans so I won't be able to reply here for a hot minute.

 

[BakiHanma18]

1: That just means that he has access to a 7-C attack, not that the hit is a 600x amp, again this isn't how that works.

2: Jack can most certainly tank Benda from Baki and Yujiro, not that it would effect him given that Yujiro would be smacking solid metal. pain isn't something that effects Raiden, a much weaker version of Jack could fight with a bunch of blood loss, two missing arms and major damage done to his organs all while fighting against a regenerating opponent like Vamp. Again, Raiden objectively has the better pain tolerance between the two. Nothing you posted for Baki's stamina feats come close to what Raiden had to endure.


3: You made the claim that Yujiro's sense manipulation would interfere with the Solid Eye when it has several feats of working when it shouldn't be working to begin with. Also if you don't mind could I see the scana for Yujiro effecting said TV's and smart phones? The Solid Eye was working perfectly in EMP fields and super-microwaves, both of which were designed to jam said device and stop it from working. Also it doesn't matter that it got accepted, CRT's can be made at any given time and that shouldn't be the case, perfect example being Goku's UI who can dodge everything aside from opponents who are that much faster. Baki landed several blows to Yujiro without being the faster of the two throughout the fight. Jack ain't a crowd of people so that's a moot point, and again that's in a fight where speed isn't Equalized and Musashi's senses aren't comparable to that of Raiden's analysis. Also Raiden has experience in dealing with opponents who are straight up invisible, even as a human. Enemies that he can't see isn't something new to him even if we go down this path.


Not really, the swordsmanship statement is just supportive evidence. Solidus scales above a vast majority of skilled swordsman, and can tango with people like Snake and such. Also that's a pretty silly claim whenever it's directly stated that Big Boss straight up invented it, not a variant of it. And your using real life history and applying it to a verse where it doesn't apply, in other words you yourself are using an Association Fallacy. Gimme a bit and I'll post em here, me also likes how you haven't paid attention to the other tid bits.

It's literally listed as a stat amp on his page

Blood loss: Hanayama was shot by 5 snipers at once, one through the heart, and then once more in the brain and bled out a massive pool of blood. If that's not enough, he went to the hospital, survived, and fought an entire gang the very next day, taking on hundreds of small caliber bullets, and bleeding another massive pool of blood, and he just walked away.

Two missing arms: Katsumi vs Pickle

Major damage to organs: lol Baki character high tiers have literally experienced being cut to pieces and have been slightly bothered by the experience.

Sure, I'll get scans of every single time the power works on tech. That's cool, but this isn't an EMP, it's not stopping or hindering its function, it's creating an illusion. Can Solid Eye even see through illusions? Okay, then make a CRT. As of now, it will be used. You're right, Jack's view isn't omnidirectional like that of a crowd, it's worse. Raiden's analysis only works if he can see Yujiro. Musashi's eyes couldn't even keep up with Baki, despite being faster. How does he deal? Thermal? Infrared? If it's sight based, it won't work. He's literally dodging your sight.

Okay, Musashi scales vastly above Gaia, the World's Best Soldier, Motobe, Gaia's master and the world's most skilled weapon's expert, and most of the Bakiverse who have a skill scale chain a mile long. Lol are you serious? Do you honestly expect me to believe that a person hitting another person with a melee weapon or fist didn't exist before Big Boss? Boss wants your number, as well as basic common sense