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It has to be this way...
- Thread starter NotoriouSoda
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1: Mate, read my reply carefully, I never once stated it wasn't a stat amp, what I said is that it's not a 600x amp, Risci quite literally had to explain this to you and KF. Also nice Strawman Fallacy.
2: The difference is that Karou was incapacitated by said attacks, he spent time in the hospital and couldn't just walk away and continue normally. Raiden while having both of his arms removed ( resulting in a lot more blood being lost as opposed to ya know getting shot.) was able to dispatch large groups of soldiers, fight and beat Vamp and stop Outer Haven right in it's tracks. also that bullet only went about an inch into his brain, which in real life have actually survived such injuries.
And Katsumi didn't lose both arms, he lost one and he ended up passing out a short amount of time afterwards. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you forgot as opposed to spreading nonsensical misinformation. And no Baki character has been cut into pieces.
3: That would be highly appreciated, and you haven't shown that Yujiro's sense manipulation is gonna be able to effect shit like. Solid Eye, which can keep track of invisible shit, and much less skilled people such as Old Snake can fight against people such as Psycho Mantis and Screaming Mantis, both of which are consistently using mind and illusionary hax. In other words, illusions aren't anything that Raiden is going to have trouble with. And I know for a fact that you aren't genuinely saying that a crowd of a bunch of fodder are gonna have a better field of vision than Raiden, such a statement makes zero ******* sense and is outright downplay. Musashi doesn't possess the feats that Raiden has here, muscle movement reading? Vamp couldn't even tell what Raiden was about to do, The End couldn't do shit against Big Boss who can turn invisible and communicate with the forrest forest itself and whoop Null who could read muscle movements, Snake laid the hurt on Psycho Mantis who has amazing mind reading powers and naturally Raiden scales way above that. And it works several ways, Raiden has multiple methods, and it's based on eletromagnetic Waves which is something that all humans give off including Yujiro.
And I'll skip the skill arguement as i posted before. You obviously know nothing about CQC if you think all CQC is hitting your opponent. CQC incorporates the usage of knives, guns and any weapon in close quarters. And yes, considering it's a canon fact it's irrefutable. Boss called, he wants your number and he'd also like to talk to you about how canons work.
2: The difference is that Karou was incapacitated by said attacks, he spent time in the hospital and couldn't just walk away and continue normally. Raiden while having both of his arms removed ( resulting in a lot more blood being lost as opposed to ya know getting shot.) was able to dispatch large groups of soldiers, fight and beat Vamp and stop Outer Haven right in it's tracks. also that bullet only went about an inch into his brain, which in real life have actually survived such injuries.
And Katsumi didn't lose both arms, he lost one and he ended up passing out a short amount of time afterwards. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you forgot as opposed to spreading nonsensical misinformation. And no Baki character has been cut into pieces.
3: That would be highly appreciated, and you haven't shown that Yujiro's sense manipulation is gonna be able to effect shit like. Solid Eye, which can keep track of invisible shit, and much less skilled people such as Old Snake can fight against people such as Psycho Mantis and Screaming Mantis, both of which are consistently using mind and illusionary hax. In other words, illusions aren't anything that Raiden is going to have trouble with. And I know for a fact that you aren't genuinely saying that a crowd of a bunch of fodder are gonna have a better field of vision than Raiden, such a statement makes zero ******* sense and is outright downplay. Musashi doesn't possess the feats that Raiden has here, muscle movement reading? Vamp couldn't even tell what Raiden was about to do, The End couldn't do shit against Big Boss who can turn invisible and communicate with the forrest forest itself and whoop Null who could read muscle movements, Snake laid the hurt on Psycho Mantis who has amazing mind reading powers and naturally Raiden scales way above that. And it works several ways, Raiden has multiple methods, and it's based on eletromagnetic Waves which is something that all humans give off including Yujiro.
And I'll skip the skill arguement as i posted before. You obviously know nothing about CQC if you think all CQC is hitting your opponent. CQC incorporates the usage of knives, guns and any weapon in close quarters. And yes, considering it's a canon fact it's irrefutable. Boss called, he wants your number and he'd also like to talk to you about how canons work.
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Psssst
Don't let it go wrong way, calm down mates
Don't let it go wrong way, calm down mates
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You can use this board to ask, or go to Knowledgeable Members List to ask guys that are knowledgeable about the series that feat belongs in
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I'm just barely following the thread, but since i'm here i might as well opine on the simpler topics
1. Yeah, when reading stats amps like these we don't say "600x AP amp" but rather "an amp that makes you go from doing no damage to doing very noticeable damage"
2. You can feel no pain and pass out of blood loss, you're not fainting thanks to the pain. I think that when Baki said "chopped to bits" he meant either when Retsu got cut in half or when multiple characters have been target of Musashi's imaginary blades that come w/ the pain of being bisected multiple times.
1. Yeah, when reading stats amps like these we don't say "600x AP amp" but rather "an amp that makes you go from doing no damage to doing very noticeable damage"
2. You can feel no pain and pass out of blood loss, you're not fainting thanks to the pain. I think that when Baki said "chopped to bits" he meant either when Retsu got cut in half or when multiple characters have been target of Musashi's imaginary blades that come w/ the pain of being bisected multiple times.
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Also I just read the scans for Baki's invisibility and pseudo intang and they definitely need to be removed, IR is legit tho,I'll make a CRT soon.
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I said it's ~600x. Once again, it amps from High 8-C to 7-CThe Prince of Counters said:
Yeah, and then right after that he leaves the hospital, fights an entire gang, takes on massive amounts of bullets, bleeds out a pool for a second time, and just walks away
First off, my point was that Katsumi level characters can take having an arm not cut off, but eaten, which is much worse than just losing the arm in one fell swoop. And Musashi would have words about Baki characters "not getting cut to pieces".
I haven't seen a single scan either, but okay. Solid Eye isn't skill, it's technology. Technology that, while it may be able to see invisible people, doesn't seem to have anything to deal with illusions. Once again, you miss the point. Regardless of the fodder's reaction speed, the fact is that he's dodging the line of sight of people in all different directions. Logically speaking, by dodging one person's line of sight, he'd enter another's, but he's able to dodge the line of sight of the crowd, despite being surrounded. Musashi is considerably more skilled than Raiden from what I've heard. Since Musashi and Solidus are equal in skill because their the best swordsman by your logic, Yujiro is more skilled than Jack because he's a soldier and Gaia is the best soldier in the world, so they must be comparable. That logic doesn't make much sense, does it? Even fodder in Baki can read muscle movements, that's not special. I'm sure Big Boss doesn't dodge people's line of sight for invisibility either. Just because Snake can beat Paycho Mantis doesn't mean he or Raiden even come close to the level of skill at play with even mid tiers in Baki
Nah, Close Quarters Combat is any combat at close quarters. Like I said 2 posts ago, he just created a military variant, also, Boss is a female...
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Yeah, Musashi's Sword SimKGiffoni said:
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Shoot for itThe Prince of Counters said:
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1: Moot point, again Karou was in the hospital and was treated, there's even direct statements that he needed blood, the other feat is of him getting shot at by small caliber rounds and guns, nothing compared to the sniper refile shots he took previously, again this pails in comparison to Raiden's feats.
First off, you said that Katsumi lost two arms, to which he didn't. He lost a single arm, and cut off circulation and began to pass out not too long afterwards. And how the **** is that worse than it being sliced off for both arms? Cleary not the case, again you trying to overblow these feats aren't gonna put them on the same caliber as Raiden's. And Musashi's cutting is a simulation, it's not nearly as lethal as taking an actual slashing attack and having to deal with several limbs removed and several major organs being destroyed in the process and fighting through it like an inconvenience. This isn't even me bringing up the insane torture that the Snakes had to endure, Boss himself doesn't even flinch at torture tactics meant to get information out of special units.
Also here we go with the overblowing feats, quite literally i took a look at the Baki feat and calling that a crowd is dubious at best. There isn't many people, most of which aren't even paying direct attention to Baki and they aren't surrounding him either. Musashi most certainly isn't more skilled than Jack, much less skilled characters than Jack himself have already countered abilities similar to that of Musashi's, and with the amount of sheer skill scaling involved with Jack Raiden is definitely comparable if not more skilled than Musashi himself. ( still gathering all the scans for the thread btw, it's gonna be a fukin minute tho.) Since Musashi and Solidus are equal in skill because their the best swordsman by your logic. Let me stop you right there, Solidus isn't Musashi's equal because of his title as the greatest swordsman to ever exist, and i never made that claim with only that argument, Metal Gear is a verse filled with incredibly skilled swordsman and Solidus is the creme of the crop, only second to Jack. And as i said before I'd appreciate if we could set the skill debate to the side since I'm still collecting various scans for Jack. Also Gaia's shit isn't anything special in comparison to Metal Gear. Also Vamp, Null and The End are fodder in comparison to Raiden, so that argument doesn't effect mine in the slightest, and we aren't on the topic of skill regarding illusions, Psycho and Screaming Mantis have much better illusions than Yujiro does, anyone who's actually bothered playing the games can point this out to you.
Buddy, a normal fist fight between two random adults isn't close Quarters Combat, CQC is taking various tactical measures and introducing them in close quarters comabt, I.E, using guns at a short range, knives, etc. Anyone who's had any experience in the Military and as someone who lives with a former SEAL i can tell you right now this isn't an argument you'll win mate. Also no, you can't just say that he didn't create something despite him straight up having statements of him making it. He didn't make a military variant, that's you using your own head canon and ignoring canon facts, Metal Gear isn't real life so you can say "lol you expect me to believe that?" i don't give a **** what you believe, what you wanna believe is irrelevant when given canon facts. And no, John isn't a female, the **** are you even on about?
First off, you said that Katsumi lost two arms, to which he didn't. He lost a single arm, and cut off circulation and began to pass out not too long afterwards. And how the **** is that worse than it being sliced off for both arms? Cleary not the case, again you trying to overblow these feats aren't gonna put them on the same caliber as Raiden's. And Musashi's cutting is a simulation, it's not nearly as lethal as taking an actual slashing attack and having to deal with several limbs removed and several major organs being destroyed in the process and fighting through it like an inconvenience. This isn't even me bringing up the insane torture that the Snakes had to endure, Boss himself doesn't even flinch at torture tactics meant to get information out of special units.
Also here we go with the overblowing feats, quite literally i took a look at the Baki feat and calling that a crowd is dubious at best. There isn't many people, most of which aren't even paying direct attention to Baki and they aren't surrounding him either. Musashi most certainly isn't more skilled than Jack, much less skilled characters than Jack himself have already countered abilities similar to that of Musashi's, and with the amount of sheer skill scaling involved with Jack Raiden is definitely comparable if not more skilled than Musashi himself. ( still gathering all the scans for the thread btw, it's gonna be a fukin minute tho.) Since Musashi and Solidus are equal in skill because their the best swordsman by your logic. Let me stop you right there, Solidus isn't Musashi's equal because of his title as the greatest swordsman to ever exist, and i never made that claim with only that argument, Metal Gear is a verse filled with incredibly skilled swordsman and Solidus is the creme of the crop, only second to Jack. And as i said before I'd appreciate if we could set the skill debate to the side since I'm still collecting various scans for Jack. Also Gaia's shit isn't anything special in comparison to Metal Gear. Also Vamp, Null and The End are fodder in comparison to Raiden, so that argument doesn't effect mine in the slightest, and we aren't on the topic of skill regarding illusions, Psycho and Screaming Mantis have much better illusions than Yujiro does, anyone who's actually bothered playing the games can point this out to you.
Buddy, a normal fist fight between two random adults isn't close Quarters Combat, CQC is taking various tactical measures and introducing them in close quarters comabt, I.E, using guns at a short range, knives, etc. Anyone who's had any experience in the Military and as someone who lives with a former SEAL i can tell you right now this isn't an argument you'll win mate. Also no, you can't just say that he didn't create something despite him straight up having statements of him making it. He didn't make a military variant, that's you using your own head canon and ignoring canon facts, Metal Gear isn't real life so you can say "lol you expect me to believe that?" i don't give a **** what you believe, what you wanna believe is irrelevant when given canon facts. And no, John isn't a female, the **** are you even on about?
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Wrong again, he stays to watch the Grandmaster vs T-Rex fight, and it's mentioned on 3 separate occasions that both the wounds from the earlier engagements are still affecting him, and he's lost a massive amount of blood againThe Prince of Counters said:
No I didn't, you put words in my mouth. You said Raiden lost 2 arms, I compared that to Katsumi getting his arm eaten, hence my literally posting "Raiden lost two arms: Katsumi v Pickle", and getting your arm literally eaten off is clearly worse that having it just cut off, with having an arm cut off, it sliced and gone. With having it eaten off, there's chewing and biting and tearing and then, after all that, you still get the pain of the arm getting cut off. Still wrong. It's said hundreds of times that Musashi's Sword Sim feels like the real thing. Hell, Baki got knocked out from the pain, and he can no sell Yanagi's Benda whips, who in turn by virtue of being the best Void Style user, should be superior to normal Benda whips, which are comparable to actual whips, which are even stated to kill people via pain. I'm sure Big Boss's torture hurt real bad tho.
Sure, I'll wait for you to get your affairs in order with the skill comparison. And no, dude, it's literally a crowd of people, we see from the view of the couple behind him, but we see several people at different spots walking past only seeing legs as well. I'd like scans on Mantis's illusions as well, as I don't think they've worked on someone with a Sixth Sense, as I look through David's page.
That's the military style of CQC, but combat at close quarters literally describes the vast majority of melee weapon combat and fist fighting. Congrats I guess, it's cool that you live with a former SEAL, sucks that you don't know that combat at close quarters isn't exclusive to the military style of combat though. You seem to be getting heated, you okay buddy? Maybe take a break if this is getting to you.
And I guess Boss has a nice figure for a man https://metalgear.fandom.com/wiki/The_Boss
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"Hitless Blow is a plain 7-C attack, used by a High 8-C character. The move obviously amps the user's strength, or else Katsumi would never be able to hurt Pickle"
Sorry but that's not how that works, characters can have attacks that surpass their AP, but this doesn't mean that they give an amp when used by characters who are already in that tier, just that THAT SPECIFIC attack has that AP level (look at thor's god blast for instance). Since HB is never stated to amplify the user's strength but is merely shown as an attack that surpasses that specific user's AP, there is absolutely no reason to believe that 1 the increase would also apply to Yujiro, who has the same tier as the attack and 2 it would be an increase to the same level. I also kinda have issues with HB supposedly hurting Pickle, it's made quite clear that a large part of why pickle was shook is that he would have never expected such power from a creature so small, he suffered no noteworthy nor permanent damage.
"As far as RM, we know it's significant, but when actually calc'd it could be less than 7x, or it could be more. I say we use it as 7x, but to not mention that it has no accepted calc would be disingenuous"
Yes it would, which is why everytime i mentioned that amp i always highlighted the fact that it's not official. Also it's impossible to calc RM with anything outside of in-game damage, so this is quite literally the only way we have to quantify its amp
1 The reverse is true for Baki and Kaku was using his own strength against him. 2 He literally used only brute strength against Kaku other than to belittle him with Xiao-Lee mastery, and the majority of times Yujiro uses a skill vs Baki, he was just doing it to show Baki he knows every move he has. In this fight, he's going to use any skill or amp to win. 3 Yujiro is going to be just as aggressive.
1. ehm, ok' 2. still, the fact that he never fought anyone stronger and faster than him to this extent still stands 3. Yeah i know, what i said is that Yujiro has never fought someone with Raiden's level of aggression, not the other way around. Yujiro has simply never faced someone like Raiden before, it's completely new turf for him, while Raiden is used to fighting characters who outskill him (he beat Sam in his second bossfight, Sam probably outskills him [not by too much tho, I say this merely for the fact that Sam can contend with characters who would stomp him through sheer swordsmanship alone] , as well as having an attack that is faster than Raiden's capabilities) and outstat him all around (Armstrong).
"As far as IR, no, Yujiro hasn't IR'd someone faster, but Baki, from whom he gets this ability and upscales from, used it to disappear from FP Musashi's sight"
I mean, did Baki preceede to CONSISTENTLY IR Musashi's attacks? Because if it doesn't work consistently then it's as good as useless. Also i am fairly sure that the difference between Musashi's and Baki's speed is not too big, after all, Baki's speed is justified with "Can keep pace with Yujiro and his motions" on this site. Unless we know that Baki's IR can allow him to consistently dodge characters whose speed surpasses his by around 4 times it won't apply here, especially as, again, Yujiro was hit by attacks from characters who are just comparable to him (Baki, no indication he "turned off" his IR, honestly, saying that he even could is another assumption but whatever)
"Yujiro can't even tell what the sword is made of, let alone what it would do to him. Allowing that sword to touch him could mean instant loss, so avoiding the sword would be the no 1 objective"
Raiden's sword looks just like a normal sword, it's literally just a normal sword (made of a normal metal, the Murasama is literally just a normal 16th century blade) that looks normal but is reinforced by a powerful alternating current and resonates at extremely high vibration frequencies, that's it. Yujiro would see that it's made of normal metal and that it looks like a normal sword, since the dura-neg technology is light years beyond his comprehension it's entirely possible that he wouldn't even notice it, especially when there's nothing visible really. Yujiro has an habit of stopping blades with his bare hands even when that blade is capable of damaging him (his fight with Musashi), so there would be no reason for him to make "avoiding the sword his no 1 objective".
"Not exactly, as the amps would still increase, Hitless Blow being insanely high for amps (it's being debated how high rn, but the site's page for AP would agree with ~600x). As far as stamina, no, Yujiro has Adrenaline to give him energy and Endorphins to nullify muscle pain"
Why would the amps increase along with skill? And the idea of HB constituting a speed amp (no, there was no misunderstanding, i understood what you meant) is just like the AP thing, all we know is that HB leads a certain character to hit at a certain speed, we are never told that HB is a traight up multiplier to one's speed, just that it reaches a certain speed when used, speed which was superior to the original user's own. Saying that it constitutes a multiplier simply has no basis. Man, can we drop the stamina argument? Seriously now, Yujiro has nothing on Raiden in this regand and you know it, Yujiro's feat aren't even a fourth as impressive as what Raiden was capable of doing with a fodder body, and as it was already told, Yujiro still feels pain, he can simply go out of his way to null it, which is something Raiden doesn't have to do, as well as the fact that Raiden LITERALLY can't get tired while Yujiro still can, add to this the fact that Raiden can ignore lethal damage while Yujiro simply can't. Raiden's stamina is simply leagues better than Yujiro's, it's as simple as that as long as you don't show Yujiro (or someone who scales below him in terms of stamina) do something comparable to fighting with both of his arms cut off (completely unscathed by bloodloss) pierced lungs and heart and after being crushed by a 14k ton ship
"As far as Imm type 2, isn't Raiden's human part the weakness? Yujiro would be able to Info Analysis any human part and use that"
MGR Raiden has a completely robotic body, and even if he did have human parts they would be his organs, so Yujiro would have to get past his superior dura to harm them, which would be useless due to immortality, so... Raiden's type 2 extends to his MGR body, he's shown capable of shrugging off being completely gutted (no organs coming out, as he doesn't have them, but he still tore his abdoment wide open) by an hf blade.
"The range advantage can't be that great, the guys not 10 feet away where unscathed, right?"
They were not the target, and Raiden's sword still managed to cut a wall that was at least a good 10 feet away from his blade in both height and distance, and the Murasama is way longer than that.
"This isn't just IR, it's IR, Analytical Prediction, Enhanced Sixth Sense, Pseudo Intang, and the skill gap."
As we discussed, saying IR would work is a complete liability not supported by the facts in the manga, and it is BY FAR the most relevant out of Yujiro's counters to Raiden's speed. His analytical prediction is not appliable here, as its only use from Yujiro himself was to deduce the outcome of a battle (very weak justification for an ability, i must say, i mean, Conor McGregor literally has a WAY better feat in real life, when he predicted exactly [down to the round, the hand used to KO him, the type of attack he would avoid while hitting him] how he would beat Jose Aldo weeks before the fight even took place, but we wouldn't say he has analytical prediction, would we? Skilled people in real life consistently predict outcomes from less than what Yujiro had, so either that doesn't justify AP or Yujiro's AP feat is fodder even to real life martial artists) and Baki's never applied to how to best dodge a move, simply (quoting directly from the site) " see through the moves of many trained martial artists", which doesn't translate to "knowing how to perfectly dodge a move AS SOON as it comes out". The sixth sense only gives him a sort of threat detection, so it's useless in this case, as Yujiro already knows the danger at hand. The pseudo intang is literally just a way Baki (again, not even yujiro himself, 3\4 of the abilities you are using to justify his victory he NEVER actually used canonically) has of dodging moves, moves which, again, are never shown to outspeed him by this big of a margin. Raiden also isn't just 5 times stronger, he constantly slashes at the single best angle to both hit and hurt the opponent.
Sorry but that's not how that works, characters can have attacks that surpass their AP, but this doesn't mean that they give an amp when used by characters who are already in that tier, just that THAT SPECIFIC attack has that AP level (look at thor's god blast for instance). Since HB is never stated to amplify the user's strength but is merely shown as an attack that surpasses that specific user's AP, there is absolutely no reason to believe that 1 the increase would also apply to Yujiro, who has the same tier as the attack and 2 it would be an increase to the same level. I also kinda have issues with HB supposedly hurting Pickle, it's made quite clear that a large part of why pickle was shook is that he would have never expected such power from a creature so small, he suffered no noteworthy nor permanent damage.
"As far as RM, we know it's significant, but when actually calc'd it could be less than 7x, or it could be more. I say we use it as 7x, but to not mention that it has no accepted calc would be disingenuous"
Yes it would, which is why everytime i mentioned that amp i always highlighted the fact that it's not official. Also it's impossible to calc RM with anything outside of in-game damage, so this is quite literally the only way we have to quantify its amp
1 The reverse is true for Baki and Kaku was using his own strength against him. 2 He literally used only brute strength against Kaku other than to belittle him with Xiao-Lee mastery, and the majority of times Yujiro uses a skill vs Baki, he was just doing it to show Baki he knows every move he has. In this fight, he's going to use any skill or amp to win. 3 Yujiro is going to be just as aggressive.
1. ehm, ok' 2. still, the fact that he never fought anyone stronger and faster than him to this extent still stands 3. Yeah i know, what i said is that Yujiro has never fought someone with Raiden's level of aggression, not the other way around. Yujiro has simply never faced someone like Raiden before, it's completely new turf for him, while Raiden is used to fighting characters who outskill him (he beat Sam in his second bossfight, Sam probably outskills him [not by too much tho, I say this merely for the fact that Sam can contend with characters who would stomp him through sheer swordsmanship alone] , as well as having an attack that is faster than Raiden's capabilities) and outstat him all around (Armstrong).
"As far as IR, no, Yujiro hasn't IR'd someone faster, but Baki, from whom he gets this ability and upscales from, used it to disappear from FP Musashi's sight"
I mean, did Baki preceede to CONSISTENTLY IR Musashi's attacks? Because if it doesn't work consistently then it's as good as useless. Also i am fairly sure that the difference between Musashi's and Baki's speed is not too big, after all, Baki's speed is justified with "Can keep pace with Yujiro and his motions" on this site. Unless we know that Baki's IR can allow him to consistently dodge characters whose speed surpasses his by around 4 times it won't apply here, especially as, again, Yujiro was hit by attacks from characters who are just comparable to him (Baki, no indication he "turned off" his IR, honestly, saying that he even could is another assumption but whatever)
"Yujiro can't even tell what the sword is made of, let alone what it would do to him. Allowing that sword to touch him could mean instant loss, so avoiding the sword would be the no 1 objective"
Raiden's sword looks just like a normal sword, it's literally just a normal sword (made of a normal metal, the Murasama is literally just a normal 16th century blade) that looks normal but is reinforced by a powerful alternating current and resonates at extremely high vibration frequencies, that's it. Yujiro would see that it's made of normal metal and that it looks like a normal sword, since the dura-neg technology is light years beyond his comprehension it's entirely possible that he wouldn't even notice it, especially when there's nothing visible really. Yujiro has an habit of stopping blades with his bare hands even when that blade is capable of damaging him (his fight with Musashi), so there would be no reason for him to make "avoiding the sword his no 1 objective".
"Not exactly, as the amps would still increase, Hitless Blow being insanely high for amps (it's being debated how high rn, but the site's page for AP would agree with ~600x). As far as stamina, no, Yujiro has Adrenaline to give him energy and Endorphins to nullify muscle pain"
Why would the amps increase along with skill? And the idea of HB constituting a speed amp (no, there was no misunderstanding, i understood what you meant) is just like the AP thing, all we know is that HB leads a certain character to hit at a certain speed, we are never told that HB is a traight up multiplier to one's speed, just that it reaches a certain speed when used, speed which was superior to the original user's own. Saying that it constitutes a multiplier simply has no basis. Man, can we drop the stamina argument? Seriously now, Yujiro has nothing on Raiden in this regand and you know it, Yujiro's feat aren't even a fourth as impressive as what Raiden was capable of doing with a fodder body, and as it was already told, Yujiro still feels pain, he can simply go out of his way to null it, which is something Raiden doesn't have to do, as well as the fact that Raiden LITERALLY can't get tired while Yujiro still can, add to this the fact that Raiden can ignore lethal damage while Yujiro simply can't. Raiden's stamina is simply leagues better than Yujiro's, it's as simple as that as long as you don't show Yujiro (or someone who scales below him in terms of stamina) do something comparable to fighting with both of his arms cut off (completely unscathed by bloodloss) pierced lungs and heart and after being crushed by a 14k ton ship
"As far as Imm type 2, isn't Raiden's human part the weakness? Yujiro would be able to Info Analysis any human part and use that"
MGR Raiden has a completely robotic body, and even if he did have human parts they would be his organs, so Yujiro would have to get past his superior dura to harm them, which would be useless due to immortality, so... Raiden's type 2 extends to his MGR body, he's shown capable of shrugging off being completely gutted (no organs coming out, as he doesn't have them, but he still tore his abdoment wide open) by an hf blade.
"The range advantage can't be that great, the guys not 10 feet away where unscathed, right?"
They were not the target, and Raiden's sword still managed to cut a wall that was at least a good 10 feet away from his blade in both height and distance, and the Murasama is way longer than that.
"This isn't just IR, it's IR, Analytical Prediction, Enhanced Sixth Sense, Pseudo Intang, and the skill gap."
As we discussed, saying IR would work is a complete liability not supported by the facts in the manga, and it is BY FAR the most relevant out of Yujiro's counters to Raiden's speed. His analytical prediction is not appliable here, as its only use from Yujiro himself was to deduce the outcome of a battle (very weak justification for an ability, i must say, i mean, Conor McGregor literally has a WAY better feat in real life, when he predicted exactly [down to the round, the hand used to KO him, the type of attack he would avoid while hitting him] how he would beat Jose Aldo weeks before the fight even took place, but we wouldn't say he has analytical prediction, would we? Skilled people in real life consistently predict outcomes from less than what Yujiro had, so either that doesn't justify AP or Yujiro's AP feat is fodder even to real life martial artists) and Baki's never applied to how to best dodge a move, simply (quoting directly from the site) " see through the moves of many trained martial artists", which doesn't translate to "knowing how to perfectly dodge a move AS SOON as it comes out". The sixth sense only gives him a sort of threat detection, so it's useless in this case, as Yujiro already knows the danger at hand. The pseudo intang is literally just a way Baki (again, not even yujiro himself, 3\4 of the abilities you are using to justify his victory he NEVER actually used canonically) has of dodging moves, moves which, again, are never shown to outspeed him by this big of a margin. Raiden also isn't just 5 times stronger, he constantly slashes at the single best angle to both hit and hurt the opponent.
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Fair point, I'll leave it at the Town level attack with a 10x speed amp, as there's no proof that the move amps damage, only proof that it hits at Town leve
I agree with what you say about RM
Yes, but just try to keep in mind that that also means he's never actually pulled out all the stops to win a fight like he would here. As far as aggression, at the very least, he didn't seem too worried about Pickle, and he's quite aggressive when aggravated (granted Pickle isn't as fast and he has bare minimum skill, but in his defensive, his physical strength rivals Yujiro's)
No, but he used his IR to dodge an attack from Yujiro, who outspeeds him, and he used it to dodge Musashi's line of sight to activate Cockroach Tackle and blitz him. It's possible that, with upscaling, Yujiro could preform as similar act. And yes, it's true that Baki can keep pace with Yujiro, but only because Yujiro still wasn't going all-out. There were ~2 different scenes in there fight where Yujiro casually blitzed Baki, and Musashi compares closer to Yujiro than Baki. It's made expressly clear that his IR is so good, he can dodge people's line of sight, yet after doing it to street fodder, Kureha, Shibukawa, and Musashi, he isn't invisible to everyone for the rest of the series, so logic would dictate that he can turn IR off and on.
Except Yujiro can see at a cellular level. If he sees the foreign tech, well, that leads me back to my initial argument
Because the skill's intended purpose is to make the user stronger/faster. If he's becoming more skilled, the skills that he uses are going to become more potent. The speed amp multiplier has been accepted though, so that multiplier actually applies. I've already posted pain tolerance feats of characters who are fodder level compared to Yujiro survive things like massive amounts of blood loss, having an arm get eaten as opposed to just cut off, and high tier Baki characters no-selling the sensation of being cut to pieces and killed, but it's a moot point because Yujiro has Adrenaline and Endorphins and Raiden has inhibitors.
I understand, thank you for the information
How much longer? One of Yujiro's ranged attacks affected an entire city block, tall office buildings included. He also has charge attack like Cockroach Tackle, of which amps his acceleration, and Forward Leaning Stance, which made Pickle fast enough to tackle a Deinonychus, which have their speed rating on the site as being able to outspeed Pickle.
His AP is applicable here, as Raiden's form is that of a human. He doesn't have muscles, so the potency is greatly decreased, but he still has a human-shaped body. Yujiro's AP allowed him to predict Baki would win the fight at one glance, despite Baki getting his shit rocked at the moment. He also upscales from people like Gaia, Baki, and Doppo. ES would help him 1) know the dangers of the HF Blade, and 2) know that dodging in a certain fashion would lead to his death. The pseudo intang is just afterimage creation but standing still, none of these is a threat separately, that's not my point. My point is that in conjunction with each other, even 5x faster is going to have a hard time landing a death-dealing blow
I agree with what you say about RM
Yes, but just try to keep in mind that that also means he's never actually pulled out all the stops to win a fight like he would here. As far as aggression, at the very least, he didn't seem too worried about Pickle, and he's quite aggressive when aggravated (granted Pickle isn't as fast and he has bare minimum skill, but in his defensive, his physical strength rivals Yujiro's)
No, but he used his IR to dodge an attack from Yujiro, who outspeeds him, and he used it to dodge Musashi's line of sight to activate Cockroach Tackle and blitz him. It's possible that, with upscaling, Yujiro could preform as similar act. And yes, it's true that Baki can keep pace with Yujiro, but only because Yujiro still wasn't going all-out. There were ~2 different scenes in there fight where Yujiro casually blitzed Baki, and Musashi compares closer to Yujiro than Baki. It's made expressly clear that his IR is so good, he can dodge people's line of sight, yet after doing it to street fodder, Kureha, Shibukawa, and Musashi, he isn't invisible to everyone for the rest of the series, so logic would dictate that he can turn IR off and on.
Except Yujiro can see at a cellular level. If he sees the foreign tech, well, that leads me back to my initial argument
Because the skill's intended purpose is to make the user stronger/faster. If he's becoming more skilled, the skills that he uses are going to become more potent. The speed amp multiplier has been accepted though, so that multiplier actually applies. I've already posted pain tolerance feats of characters who are fodder level compared to Yujiro survive things like massive amounts of blood loss, having an arm get eaten as opposed to just cut off, and high tier Baki characters no-selling the sensation of being cut to pieces and killed, but it's a moot point because Yujiro has Adrenaline and Endorphins and Raiden has inhibitors.
I understand, thank you for the information
How much longer? One of Yujiro's ranged attacks affected an entire city block, tall office buildings included. He also has charge attack like Cockroach Tackle, of which amps his acceleration, and Forward Leaning Stance, which made Pickle fast enough to tackle a Deinonychus, which have their speed rating on the site as being able to outspeed Pickle.
His AP is applicable here, as Raiden's form is that of a human. He doesn't have muscles, so the potency is greatly decreased, but he still has a human-shaped body. Yujiro's AP allowed him to predict Baki would win the fight at one glance, despite Baki getting his shit rocked at the moment. He also upscales from people like Gaia, Baki, and Doppo. ES would help him 1) know the dangers of the HF Blade, and 2) know that dodging in a certain fashion would lead to his death. The pseudo intang is just afterimage creation but standing still, none of these is a threat separately, that's not my point. My point is that in conjunction with each other, even 5x faster is going to have a hard time landing a death-dealing blow
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"6th Sense is there exactly for this"
Yeah ok you are right on this, that point is moot
"Yes, but just try to keep in mind that that also means he's never actually pulled out all the stops to win a fight like he would here. As far as aggression, at the very least, he didn't seem too worried about Pickle, and he's quite aggressive when aggravated"
Of course Yujiro is going to be more aggressive and serious than he's ever been, what I'm saying is that he's fidning himself in a situation he never actually encountered before, which is certainly going to be at least a slight disadvantage in terms of interacting with his opponent
"No, but he used his IR to dodge an attack from Yujiro, who outspeeds him, and he used it to dodge Musashi's line of sight to activate Cockroach Tackle and blitz him. It's possible that, with upscaling, Yujiro could preform as similar act."
Still, Baki himself has never displayed CONSISTENT IR against neither Musashi nor Yujirom which are both faster but still somehow comparable to him, the IR has to be 100% consistent to help Yujiro out here.
"After doing it to street fodder, Kureha, Shibukawa, and Musashi, he isn't invisible to everyone for the rest of the series, so logic would dictate that he can turn IR off and on."
I could flip this argument: logic would actually dictate that he has to activate the IR and that it's not on at all times, since there are more instances of the IR not being there rather than the opposite
"Except Yujiro can see at a cellular level. If he sees the foreign tech, well, that leads me back to my initial argument"
my point about trading hits is made moot by his sixth sense, not by this, as the thing that makes the HF blade negate dura is not a physical element, it's an extremely fast vibration.
"The speed amp multiplier has been accepted though, so that multiplier actually applies"
Nothing on Katsumi's profile shows a speed multiplier from the HB, and again, HB is NEVER stated to be an amp to the user's speed, it's consistently stated and shown to merely be an attack that goes at a certain speed which, in Katsumi's case, surpassed his own, the same exact argument as the AP one
"I've already posted pain tolerance feats of characters who are fodder level compared to Yujiro survive things like massive amounts of blood loss, having an arm get eaten as opposed to just cut off, and high tier Baki characters no-selling the sensation of being cut to pieces and killed"
Surviving blood loss is irrelevant as Raiden doesn't have blood, or better, his blood is artificial, it simply fullfills a sort of "greasing" effect to his organism as well as showing him when he's supposedly injured, which means that Raiden doesn't need blood at all to survive, he could fight on without a problem while completely drained of his blood. I suppose that when you talk about the eaten arm you're referring to Katsumi's fight with Pickle, right? If that's the case, Katsumi fainted SECONDS after having his arm ripped out and his injuries from the Mach Punch had made him completely unable to fight, so yeah, not a good example at all. Resisting a sensation is completely different from resisting the actual event, as in the second case you don't just have to deal with the pain but also with the injury itself and how it effects you. Only the last thing you said even remotely compares to what Raiden's MGS4 fodder (it's literally stated to be obsolete compared to his current body) body could do but is still lower due to not actually receiving any real injury.
"Yujiro has Adrenaline and Endorphins and Raiden has inhibitors."
Both adrenaline and endorphins have to 1 kick in and 2 only mitigate the pain, whereas raiden's pain inhibitors LITERALLY consist in shutting off his pain receptors and they are passive, so the pain won't even present itself in the first place, unlike in Yujiro's case. Raiden just has an overall better pain-nulling option, simple as that.
"How much longer?"
the Murasama is basically a 2 handed weapon whereas Raiden's blade in that scene is a one-hander and a short one at that. The range difference is significant enough that it's a gameplay mechanic. Yujiro's true damage comes from h2h, and Raiden can consistently outrange him in that regard by a signficiant margin
"His AP is applicable here, as Raiden's form is that of a human. He doesn't have muscles, so the potency is greatly decreased, but he still has a human-shaped body. Yujiro's AP allowed him to predict Baki would win the fight at one glance, despite Baki getting his shit rocked at the moment"
As i said, that feat is pretty much fodder compared to even just real life instances of skilled martial artists and is in no way related to instantly analysing the best way of dodging an attack, there is no proof that it could even be applied in this case
"ES would help him 1) know the dangers of the HF Blade, and 2) know that dodging in a certain fashion would lead to his death"
Yeah, i already agreed that the sixth sense makes the hit-trading argument mood, it's worth noting that it serves no purpose other than danger-detection tho
"The pseudo intang is just afterimage creation but standing still, none of these is a threat separately, that's not my point. My point is that in conjunction with each other, even 5x faster is going to have a hard time landing a death-dealing blow"
Most of these abilities are scarcely appliable to the situation at hand and even if they did apply, the automatic info-analysis along with the significant speed advantage can easily counter it. It would be difficult for Raiden to NOT land a death-dealing blow, as the HF blade is gonna cut through everything it touches, so either it's gonna kill or severely handicap Yujiro, both situation would easily lead to a landslide victory for Raiden.
And we are still ignoring the fact that while in RM Raiden is significantly stronger and more durable than Yujiro, along with having an AD that increases all his stats by an exponential amount when he feels challenged\determined enough, making the stat difference even more relevant
Yeah ok you are right on this, that point is moot
"Yes, but just try to keep in mind that that also means he's never actually pulled out all the stops to win a fight like he would here. As far as aggression, at the very least, he didn't seem too worried about Pickle, and he's quite aggressive when aggravated"
Of course Yujiro is going to be more aggressive and serious than he's ever been, what I'm saying is that he's fidning himself in a situation he never actually encountered before, which is certainly going to be at least a slight disadvantage in terms of interacting with his opponent
"No, but he used his IR to dodge an attack from Yujiro, who outspeeds him, and he used it to dodge Musashi's line of sight to activate Cockroach Tackle and blitz him. It's possible that, with upscaling, Yujiro could preform as similar act."
Still, Baki himself has never displayed CONSISTENT IR against neither Musashi nor Yujirom which are both faster but still somehow comparable to him, the IR has to be 100% consistent to help Yujiro out here.
"After doing it to street fodder, Kureha, Shibukawa, and Musashi, he isn't invisible to everyone for the rest of the series, so logic would dictate that he can turn IR off and on."
I could flip this argument: logic would actually dictate that he has to activate the IR and that it's not on at all times, since there are more instances of the IR not being there rather than the opposite
"Except Yujiro can see at a cellular level. If he sees the foreign tech, well, that leads me back to my initial argument"
my point about trading hits is made moot by his sixth sense, not by this, as the thing that makes the HF blade negate dura is not a physical element, it's an extremely fast vibration.
"The speed amp multiplier has been accepted though, so that multiplier actually applies"
Nothing on Katsumi's profile shows a speed multiplier from the HB, and again, HB is NEVER stated to be an amp to the user's speed, it's consistently stated and shown to merely be an attack that goes at a certain speed which, in Katsumi's case, surpassed his own, the same exact argument as the AP one
"I've already posted pain tolerance feats of characters who are fodder level compared to Yujiro survive things like massive amounts of blood loss, having an arm get eaten as opposed to just cut off, and high tier Baki characters no-selling the sensation of being cut to pieces and killed"
Surviving blood loss is irrelevant as Raiden doesn't have blood, or better, his blood is artificial, it simply fullfills a sort of "greasing" effect to his organism as well as showing him when he's supposedly injured, which means that Raiden doesn't need blood at all to survive, he could fight on without a problem while completely drained of his blood. I suppose that when you talk about the eaten arm you're referring to Katsumi's fight with Pickle, right? If that's the case, Katsumi fainted SECONDS after having his arm ripped out and his injuries from the Mach Punch had made him completely unable to fight, so yeah, not a good example at all. Resisting a sensation is completely different from resisting the actual event, as in the second case you don't just have to deal with the pain but also with the injury itself and how it effects you. Only the last thing you said even remotely compares to what Raiden's MGS4 fodder (it's literally stated to be obsolete compared to his current body) body could do but is still lower due to not actually receiving any real injury.
"Yujiro has Adrenaline and Endorphins and Raiden has inhibitors."
Both adrenaline and endorphins have to 1 kick in and 2 only mitigate the pain, whereas raiden's pain inhibitors LITERALLY consist in shutting off his pain receptors and they are passive, so the pain won't even present itself in the first place, unlike in Yujiro's case. Raiden just has an overall better pain-nulling option, simple as that.
"How much longer?"
the Murasama is basically a 2 handed weapon whereas Raiden's blade in that scene is a one-hander and a short one at that. The range difference is significant enough that it's a gameplay mechanic. Yujiro's true damage comes from h2h, and Raiden can consistently outrange him in that regard by a signficiant margin
"His AP is applicable here, as Raiden's form is that of a human. He doesn't have muscles, so the potency is greatly decreased, but he still has a human-shaped body. Yujiro's AP allowed him to predict Baki would win the fight at one glance, despite Baki getting his shit rocked at the moment"
As i said, that feat is pretty much fodder compared to even just real life instances of skilled martial artists and is in no way related to instantly analysing the best way of dodging an attack, there is no proof that it could even be applied in this case
"ES would help him 1) know the dangers of the HF Blade, and 2) know that dodging in a certain fashion would lead to his death"
Yeah, i already agreed that the sixth sense makes the hit-trading argument mood, it's worth noting that it serves no purpose other than danger-detection tho
"The pseudo intang is just afterimage creation but standing still, none of these is a threat separately, that's not my point. My point is that in conjunction with each other, even 5x faster is going to have a hard time landing a death-dealing blow"
Most of these abilities are scarcely appliable to the situation at hand and even if they did apply, the automatic info-analysis along with the significant speed advantage can easily counter it. It would be difficult for Raiden to NOT land a death-dealing blow, as the HF blade is gonna cut through everything it touches, so either it's gonna kill or severely handicap Yujiro, both situation would easily lead to a landslide victory for Raiden.
And we are still ignoring the fact that while in RM Raiden is significantly stronger and more durable than Yujiro, along with having an AD that increases all his stats by an exponential amount when he feels challenged\determined enough, making the stat difference even more relevant
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Oh, sorry, maybe my wording could've been better, what I meant was that he's seen Pickle fight, being as aggressive as he is, but was unfazed, despite the two being of comparable strength (Pickle is even stronger than Baki, and only lost because of Baki's skill).
The IR has been shown to work on at least 1 hit for dodging purposes, so with Raiden and Yujiro's APs clashing, even if Raiden's is better, Yujiro still has Enhanced Sixth to tell him dodging in a certain way or doing a certain thing will result in death, a get out of jail free card in IR, one attack in a combo, and the skill gap
Yes, that's what I mean. Sorry if I've worded my argument poorly: Instinctive Reaction in Baki seems to be a technique or power that has to be turned on (with the exception of being unconscious. If one is unconscious, it would seem that they auto dodge. Yujiro knocked Baki out during their fight, but Baki dodged one of his attacks while unconscious, only to be hit and woken up by the follow-up, hence my saying it can dodge at least 1 hit).
Wouldnt he be able to see the vibrations with cellular sight? You don't have to waste time answering this if you don't want to since it's a moot point, but Raiden is one of my favorite MGS characters, yet I know very little about his finer details and I'm interested to learn more
To clarify, Hitless Blow is named "True Mach Punch" on his page, which amps him by 10x. The speed amp was just recently accepted in the CRT after I asked, and it was signed off on by two staff members, so I don't know, as of now, it's a 10x speed amp, but that may change in the future
Then that's not a pain tolerance feat. A pain tolerance feat is only a feat if (in this instance) the loss or lack of blood caused pain. If he doesn't need blood, Hanayama's feat would be superior by virtue of a 19 year old Hanayama (less tolerance than 22 year old Hanayama, who is a high tier, not God tier) almost died of wounds and blood loss, was hospitalized for a day, and almost died again solely of blood loss, but survived. I'd say the Katsumi fight is a great example. He both fists several times, gets his ass kick by someone who is actually ~600x stronger than him (Pickle is Town level), and gets his arm ripped off. That's nothing short of incredible. Not for Musashi. It made Baki pass out, a Baki with a higher pain tolerance than an earlier Baki who could no sell Yanagi Benda, which, by virtue of him being the best Void Style user, should be superior to a normal Benda, which compares to a whip, which have been stated to kill people via pain. Musashi's Sword Sim is so potent, Dr. Albert Payne (fodder, but a brilliant scientist) said that all 37 trillion of his cells believed he was dead.
No, Endorphins are explicitly stated to turn pain into pleasure, so pain will actually feel good to Yujiro
2 handed swords are also harder to manage and swing due to increased mass, which could provide Yujiro with an opening early in the fight
McGregor could've literally been guessing and have been lucky. Yujiro knew not only that Baki was going to win in a glance despite the ass-whooping he was receiving, he could even tell what move Baki was going to use, when he'd use it, and what the outcome of using that move would be. Yujiro's analytical skill also allows him to copy and master a martial art like Xiao-Lee, which took Kaku Kaioh 50,000 days, or ~120 years, to master, except Yujiro did it in mere seconds. He was also able to analyze and copy Baki's Imagine Style, a martial art Baki invented, after seeing it once
Ive been explaining how they are applicable, Afterimages make it harder for Raiden to hit Yujiro. He counters that with his sight, which in turn is countered by dodging his sight, and with skill gap being what it is and Yujiro's body control, even with a 5x advantage in speed it will be difficult to even see him, let alone hit him
Significant is a bit of a stretch, Yujiro has plenty of strength amps, he's insanely difficult to hit, non-lethal blows won't slow him down a bit, and Yujiro's skill is increasing as well, making it even more unlikely that he'll be hit as his amped techniques get stronger and faster
The IR has been shown to work on at least 1 hit for dodging purposes, so with Raiden and Yujiro's APs clashing, even if Raiden's is better, Yujiro still has Enhanced Sixth to tell him dodging in a certain way or doing a certain thing will result in death, a get out of jail free card in IR, one attack in a combo, and the skill gap
Yes, that's what I mean. Sorry if I've worded my argument poorly: Instinctive Reaction in Baki seems to be a technique or power that has to be turned on (with the exception of being unconscious. If one is unconscious, it would seem that they auto dodge. Yujiro knocked Baki out during their fight, but Baki dodged one of his attacks while unconscious, only to be hit and woken up by the follow-up, hence my saying it can dodge at least 1 hit).
Wouldnt he be able to see the vibrations with cellular sight? You don't have to waste time answering this if you don't want to since it's a moot point, but Raiden is one of my favorite MGS characters, yet I know very little about his finer details and I'm interested to learn more
To clarify, Hitless Blow is named "True Mach Punch" on his page, which amps him by 10x. The speed amp was just recently accepted in the CRT after I asked, and it was signed off on by two staff members, so I don't know, as of now, it's a 10x speed amp, but that may change in the future
Then that's not a pain tolerance feat. A pain tolerance feat is only a feat if (in this instance) the loss or lack of blood caused pain. If he doesn't need blood, Hanayama's feat would be superior by virtue of a 19 year old Hanayama (less tolerance than 22 year old Hanayama, who is a high tier, not God tier) almost died of wounds and blood loss, was hospitalized for a day, and almost died again solely of blood loss, but survived. I'd say the Katsumi fight is a great example. He both fists several times, gets his ass kick by someone who is actually ~600x stronger than him (Pickle is Town level), and gets his arm ripped off. That's nothing short of incredible. Not for Musashi. It made Baki pass out, a Baki with a higher pain tolerance than an earlier Baki who could no sell Yanagi Benda, which, by virtue of him being the best Void Style user, should be superior to a normal Benda, which compares to a whip, which have been stated to kill people via pain. Musashi's Sword Sim is so potent, Dr. Albert Payne (fodder, but a brilliant scientist) said that all 37 trillion of his cells believed he was dead.
No, Endorphins are explicitly stated to turn pain into pleasure, so pain will actually feel good to Yujiro
2 handed swords are also harder to manage and swing due to increased mass, which could provide Yujiro with an opening early in the fight
McGregor could've literally been guessing and have been lucky. Yujiro knew not only that Baki was going to win in a glance despite the ass-whooping he was receiving, he could even tell what move Baki was going to use, when he'd use it, and what the outcome of using that move would be. Yujiro's analytical skill also allows him to copy and master a martial art like Xiao-Lee, which took Kaku Kaioh 50,000 days, or ~120 years, to master, except Yujiro did it in mere seconds. He was also able to analyze and copy Baki's Imagine Style, a martial art Baki invented, after seeing it once
Ive been explaining how they are applicable, Afterimages make it harder for Raiden to hit Yujiro. He counters that with his sight, which in turn is countered by dodging his sight, and with skill gap being what it is and Yujiro's body control, even with a 5x advantage in speed it will be difficult to even see him, let alone hit him
Significant is a bit of a stretch, Yujiro has plenty of strength amps, he's insanely difficult to hit, non-lethal blows won't slow him down a bit, and Yujiro's skill is increasing as well, making it even more unlikely that he'll be hit as his amped techniques get stronger and faster
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"Oh, sorry, maybe my wording could've been better, what I meant was that he's seen Pickle fight, being as aggressive as he is, but was unfazed, despite the two being of comparable strength"
Watching someone fight is different from ACTUALLY fighting that person.
"The IR has been shown to work on at least 1 hit for dodging purposes, so with Raiden and Yujiro's APs clashing, even if Raiden's is better, Yujiro still has Enhanced Sixth to tell him dodging in a certain way or doing a certain thing will result in death, a get out of jail free card in IR, one attack in a combo, and the skill gap"
Their AP won't clash, Raiden is using his dura neg'ing sword, remember? And being able to IR just one attack won't help Yujiro in the slightest as Raiden is going to be slashing untill he's dead. Remember that dodging Raiden's slashes is literally the very first thing Yujiro is gonna have to do, as Raiden starts in BM, so if he doesn't have a consistent, sure counter to that he loses in thhe very first part of the fight
"Yes, that's what I mean. Sorry if I've worded my argument poorly: Instinctive Reaction in Baki seems to be a technique or power that has to be turned on"
Even worse, if Yujiro has to activate his IR, it's entirely possible that he's gonna get slashed before he can do it, and even after he activates it, there are no showings of theh IR consistently dodging barrages of faster attacks
"Wouldnt he be able to see the vibrations with cellular sight?"
I mean, it's possible, but the vibration has never shown itself to be visible on any level, even when touching still surfaces the sword doesn't look like it's vibrating.
"To clarify, Hitless Blow is named "True Mach Punch" on his page, which amps him by 10x. The speed amp was just recently accepted in the CRT after I asked, and it was signed off on by two staff members, so I don't know, as of now, it's a 10x speed amp, but that may change in the future"
There is absolutely no indication of ANY speed amp on Katsumi's profile, neither for HB nor for the TMP, I don't know what to tell you, and, as I previously said, the TMP is never presented as a speed-boost to thhe user, it's simply shown and stated to be an attack that goes at a certain speed, which just so happened to be abole the user's in Katsumi's case
"Then that's not a pain tolerance feat. A pain tolerance feat is only a feat if (in this instance) the loss or lack of blood caused pain. If he doesn't need blood, Hanayama's feat would be superior"
What i said is that resisting the effects and pain of blood loss is fodder to Raiden because he LITERALLY doesn't even hhave to deal with them ever, look at it like this: You are saying that Yujiro can resist the pain and effects of blood loss while Raiden LITERALLY cannot feel neither the pain nor the effects in the first place.
"I'd say the Katsumi fight is a great example. He both fists several times, gets his ass kick by someone who is actually ~600x stronger than him (Pickle is Town level), and gets his arm ripped off. That's nothing short of incredible"
Man, that's really not how it went: Pickle hit Katsumi A SINGLE TIME and right after that Katsumi stated that "the pain from thhe damage was almost killing him", Pickle never hit him again after that, i would hardly call that "getting your ass kicked", especially when compared to what Raiden suffered at the hands of Armstrong. Katsumi proceeded to throw a few mach punches that completely devastated him and the true mach punch made him completely unable to fight after hitting Pickle at best 10 times. Pickle then tore his arm off and Katsumi IMMEDIATELY fainted.
"Not for Musashi. It made Baki pass out, a Baki with a higher pain tolerance than an earlier Baki who could no sell Yanagi Benda, which, by virtue of him being the best Void Style user, should be superior to a normal Benda, which compares to a whip, which have been stated to kill people via pain"
Hate to break it to you, but whips are something even people in real life can tank with relative ease, bearing a whip's pain is barely a superhuman pain resistence feat, doesn't really compare to having your heart and lungs pierced, does it?
"No, Endorphins are explicitly stated to turn pain into pleasure, so pain will actually feel good to Yujiro"
Point still stands thhat Endorphins have to kick in, and they don't even do that passively, Baki had to physically activate the ability, which is not something Yujiro is going to have the time to do, the inhibitors are simply superior all around.
"2 handed swords are also harder to manage and swing due to increased mass, which could provide Yujiro with an opening early in the fight"
This gets negged by 1 Raiden being the best swordsman alive 2 Raiden having already used the Murasama at full eficiency while fighting Armstrong 3 the fact that while in Blade Mode Raiden slashes with both of his hands
"McGregor could've literally been guessing and have been lucky"
McGregor predicted every same fight before that one with the same degree of accuracy. I could also flip the argument, since McGregor's predictions are far more accurate that Yujiro's (McGregor predicted the hand he would have used, the hand his opponent would have used and the round number by just watching Aldo's right hand twitch during the stare-down, which is an objectively superior feat to what Yujiro did considering that he even had the chance to see the fighter's state, fighting stance and knew one of the fighter thoroughly) and more consistent, i could say that Yujiro could have been simply lucky aswell
"Yujiro's analytical skill also allows him to copy and master a martial art like Xiao-Lee, which took Kaku Kaioh 50,000 days, or ~120 years, to master, except Yujiro did it in mere seconds. He was also able to analyze and copy Baki's Imagine Style, a martial art Baki invented, after seeing it once"
Absolutely useless in this fight. His analysis has to give him the ability to predict and best dodge moves, being able to copy techniques is simply irrelevant
"Ive been explaining how they are applicable, Afterimages make it harder for Raiden to hit Yujiro. He counters that with his sight, which in turn is countered by dodging his sight, and with skill gap being what it is and Yujiro's body control, even with a 5x advantage in speed it will be difficult to even see him, let alone hit him"
Raiden has heat-vision, he probably won't even see the afterimages in the first place. There are no feats of consistently dodging a faster opponent's sight and besides, Raiden has optical enhancements, as well as a Solid Eye, which technologically lightyears above Snake's which was itself lightyers above Big Boss' Sonic Eye, which allow him to track his opponent's path and movements through sound only, so even if Yujiro can dodge his enhanced sight, Raiden still has alternative means of tracking him
"Significant is a bit of a stretch, Yujiro has plenty of strength amps, he's insanely difficult to hit, non-lethal blows won't slow him down a bit"
I mean, if we take the 7x amp then Raiden's stats are more than double that of Yujiro. Does Yujiro have feats of fighting without limbs? Because that's what "non lethal damage" from an HF blade is. (I bet my ass you're going to say something along the lines of "Yujiro never did, but this one guy to whom yujiro is superior did once).
A lot of the points in Yujiro's favour are eithher very big assumptions or things he's never done but SHOULD be able to do, especially the most essential ones, the dodging ones, without which he would instantly die.
Watching someone fight is different from ACTUALLY fighting that person.
"The IR has been shown to work on at least 1 hit for dodging purposes, so with Raiden and Yujiro's APs clashing, even if Raiden's is better, Yujiro still has Enhanced Sixth to tell him dodging in a certain way or doing a certain thing will result in death, a get out of jail free card in IR, one attack in a combo, and the skill gap"
Their AP won't clash, Raiden is using his dura neg'ing sword, remember? And being able to IR just one attack won't help Yujiro in the slightest as Raiden is going to be slashing untill he's dead. Remember that dodging Raiden's slashes is literally the very first thing Yujiro is gonna have to do, as Raiden starts in BM, so if he doesn't have a consistent, sure counter to that he loses in thhe very first part of the fight
"Yes, that's what I mean. Sorry if I've worded my argument poorly: Instinctive Reaction in Baki seems to be a technique or power that has to be turned on"
Even worse, if Yujiro has to activate his IR, it's entirely possible that he's gonna get slashed before he can do it, and even after he activates it, there are no showings of theh IR consistently dodging barrages of faster attacks
"Wouldnt he be able to see the vibrations with cellular sight?"
I mean, it's possible, but the vibration has never shown itself to be visible on any level, even when touching still surfaces the sword doesn't look like it's vibrating.
"To clarify, Hitless Blow is named "True Mach Punch" on his page, which amps him by 10x. The speed amp was just recently accepted in the CRT after I asked, and it was signed off on by two staff members, so I don't know, as of now, it's a 10x speed amp, but that may change in the future"
There is absolutely no indication of ANY speed amp on Katsumi's profile, neither for HB nor for the TMP, I don't know what to tell you, and, as I previously said, the TMP is never presented as a speed-boost to thhe user, it's simply shown and stated to be an attack that goes at a certain speed, which just so happened to be abole the user's in Katsumi's case
"Then that's not a pain tolerance feat. A pain tolerance feat is only a feat if (in this instance) the loss or lack of blood caused pain. If he doesn't need blood, Hanayama's feat would be superior"
What i said is that resisting the effects and pain of blood loss is fodder to Raiden because he LITERALLY doesn't even hhave to deal with them ever, look at it like this: You are saying that Yujiro can resist the pain and effects of blood loss while Raiden LITERALLY cannot feel neither the pain nor the effects in the first place.
"I'd say the Katsumi fight is a great example. He both fists several times, gets his ass kick by someone who is actually ~600x stronger than him (Pickle is Town level), and gets his arm ripped off. That's nothing short of incredible"
Man, that's really not how it went: Pickle hit Katsumi A SINGLE TIME and right after that Katsumi stated that "the pain from thhe damage was almost killing him", Pickle never hit him again after that, i would hardly call that "getting your ass kicked", especially when compared to what Raiden suffered at the hands of Armstrong. Katsumi proceeded to throw a few mach punches that completely devastated him and the true mach punch made him completely unable to fight after hitting Pickle at best 10 times. Pickle then tore his arm off and Katsumi IMMEDIATELY fainted.
"Not for Musashi. It made Baki pass out, a Baki with a higher pain tolerance than an earlier Baki who could no sell Yanagi Benda, which, by virtue of him being the best Void Style user, should be superior to a normal Benda, which compares to a whip, which have been stated to kill people via pain"
Hate to break it to you, but whips are something even people in real life can tank with relative ease, bearing a whip's pain is barely a superhuman pain resistence feat, doesn't really compare to having your heart and lungs pierced, does it?
"No, Endorphins are explicitly stated to turn pain into pleasure, so pain will actually feel good to Yujiro"
Point still stands thhat Endorphins have to kick in, and they don't even do that passively, Baki had to physically activate the ability, which is not something Yujiro is going to have the time to do, the inhibitors are simply superior all around.
"2 handed swords are also harder to manage and swing due to increased mass, which could provide Yujiro with an opening early in the fight"
This gets negged by 1 Raiden being the best swordsman alive 2 Raiden having already used the Murasama at full eficiency while fighting Armstrong 3 the fact that while in Blade Mode Raiden slashes with both of his hands
"McGregor could've literally been guessing and have been lucky"
McGregor predicted every same fight before that one with the same degree of accuracy. I could also flip the argument, since McGregor's predictions are far more accurate that Yujiro's (McGregor predicted the hand he would have used, the hand his opponent would have used and the round number by just watching Aldo's right hand twitch during the stare-down, which is an objectively superior feat to what Yujiro did considering that he even had the chance to see the fighter's state, fighting stance and knew one of the fighter thoroughly) and more consistent, i could say that Yujiro could have been simply lucky aswell
"Yujiro's analytical skill also allows him to copy and master a martial art like Xiao-Lee, which took Kaku Kaioh 50,000 days, or ~120 years, to master, except Yujiro did it in mere seconds. He was also able to analyze and copy Baki's Imagine Style, a martial art Baki invented, after seeing it once"
Absolutely useless in this fight. His analysis has to give him the ability to predict and best dodge moves, being able to copy techniques is simply irrelevant
"Ive been explaining how they are applicable, Afterimages make it harder for Raiden to hit Yujiro. He counters that with his sight, which in turn is countered by dodging his sight, and with skill gap being what it is and Yujiro's body control, even with a 5x advantage in speed it will be difficult to even see him, let alone hit him"
Raiden has heat-vision, he probably won't even see the afterimages in the first place. There are no feats of consistently dodging a faster opponent's sight and besides, Raiden has optical enhancements, as well as a Solid Eye, which technologically lightyears above Snake's which was itself lightyers above Big Boss' Sonic Eye, which allow him to track his opponent's path and movements through sound only, so even if Yujiro can dodge his enhanced sight, Raiden still has alternative means of tracking him
"Significant is a bit of a stretch, Yujiro has plenty of strength amps, he's insanely difficult to hit, non-lethal blows won't slow him down a bit"
I mean, if we take the 7x amp then Raiden's stats are more than double that of Yujiro. Does Yujiro have feats of fighting without limbs? Because that's what "non lethal damage" from an HF blade is. (I bet my ass you're going to say something along the lines of "Yujiro never did, but this one guy to whom yujiro is superior did once).
A lot of the points in Yujiro's favour are eithher very big assumptions or things he's never done but SHOULD be able to do, especially the most essential ones, the dodging ones, without which he would instantly die.
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I've taken a few days to think it over and review each character's arsenals, and I think, as much as it pains me to say, this might be a stomp. The thing that gets it every single time is Raiden's Reactive Power Level. AD skill with a massive gap is great and all, but there's a limit to what skill can make up for. No matter what combination of abilities and techniques I try to apply, RPL always shuts it down. 5x speed difference? Not really a problem normal characters in Ikki's verse can dodge 10 people 10x faster than themselves, and Yujiro is comparable, albeit significantly less skilled than, but comparable in skill to Ikki. 7x strength difference? Yujiro can use his offensive and defensive techniques to avoid any lethal damage and use amps to slowly chip away at Raiden. The problem lies in that, as it's AD vs RPL, and it's an unquantifiable AD vs a "goes from taking heavy damage to no-selling in seconds" RPL. Eventually, even if the speed and power of the amps increase, Raiden's RPL is going to overtake them, leaving Yujiro with no viable win con. If 0.5 worked, I figure Yujiro could potentially use a few different techniques to stun, surprise, or briefly disable Raiden, some combos even getting Raiden's sword from him, but none of them mattered because 0.5 doesn't apply properly, as Raiden reacts instantly to everything. Sadly, with Raiden's mechanical body, oneshotting sword, and ludicrous RPL, Yujiro can't do anything but hold out, and even that won't work, as I failed to take into account one thing: even if Yujiro keeps energizing himself with Adrenaline and blocks out the pain with Endorphins, eventually his body is just going to fall apart. It would take a while, but constant combat to this degree, for Yujiro to have to exert himself that hard, it wouldn't be long before his muscles shredded, his ligaments and tendons snapped, and his body couldn't go on, even if his mind and heart could.
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Raiden just beat Yujiro anyway so this is redundant
Add the first fight when you can gentleman
Add the first fight when you can gentleman
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