- 14,409
- 1,692
At this point this thread is getting derailed by bringing up calcs that are already accepted and saying they are wrong just because they don't support your argument ƒñªÔÇìÔÖé´©Å
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Issues with Speed [Naruto]
- Thread starter Damage3245
- Start date
- Status
- 829
- 168
Because Kirin will vary in speed and having characters like Kisame who can keep up with Killer B (who is above Sasuke Taka), aside from Sasuke's dodging, which belies his statement and so forth, which like I said was thrown into oblivion, but that's for another time... Yes, it's consistent.
The rest ... I will not explain this to you again. If you want, go to the numerous threads you've been debunked and look for yourself.
The rest ... I will not explain this to you again. If you want, go to the numerous threads you've been debunked and look for yourself.
- 14,409
- 1,692
Also I keep seeing people ignore this. You guys do realize that Near Lightspeed on this site is accepted as 50 percent to 99 percent the speed of light right??? We actually low balled the hell out of Ay. We could have given him 99 percent the speed of light for being able to move in light speed teleportation and perceiving his surroundings at the speed of light
- 14,409
- 1,692
Damage??? Bruh why are u still using that hyperbole?? We literally went over this Kirin statement being impossible to dodge. Itachi literally perceives it and blocks it.
It's a hyperbole at its finest which is crazy when most of your thread is based on hyperboles
It's a hyperbole at its finest which is crazy when most of your thread is based on hyperboles
- 31,590
- 28,052
- Thread starter
- #85
@AstralKing7; are you incapable of understanding what I mean when I bring up the Kirin statement? Every time I mention it you completely misunderstand me.
EDIT: I'll go into detail about it tomorrow if I must.
EDIT: I'll go into detail about it tomorrow if I must.
- 1,461
- 764
Cal said it best. The only argument thus far is "it was accepted deal with it". The other variation we are seeing is "you were debunked because our group disagreed with you deal with it".
FTL Naruto makes no contextual sense and obviously leads to hyper inflated wank unsupported in-series by explicit feats. The very fact a data book statement that is unsupported in canon and which uses flowery language is the sole thing which has lead to 25x SOL naruto verse is all the reason one needs to dismiss it out of hand.
The fact natural lightning is explicitly considered undodgeable is further backing.
The fact a beam of light is considered impossible to dodge is even further backing.
Let's end the wank finally and get back to caring about accuracy and cease hiding behind "a group of us strong armed upgrades through based on faulty logic" as a defense.
FTL Naruto makes no contextual sense and obviously leads to hyper inflated wank unsupported in-series by explicit feats. The very fact a data book statement that is unsupported in canon and which uses flowery language is the sole thing which has lead to 25x SOL naruto verse is all the reason one needs to dismiss it out of hand.
The fact natural lightning is explicitly considered undodgeable is further backing.
The fact a beam of light is considered impossible to dodge is even further backing.
Let's end the wank finally and get back to caring about accuracy and cease hiding behind "a group of us strong armed upgrades through based on faulty logic" as a defense.
- 1,596
- 177
Actually it was never said to be impossible to dodge just that it would be so hard that it seems impossible honestly a lot of this lacks context. For some reason I can't seem to post the scans. But
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:AlexSoloVaAlFuturo/Sasuke's_Kirin_speed?comments_page=1
Kepley was the one to do the Calc and nowhere it is said to be impossible to dodge its just hard plus itachi was in a really bad condition that's why it was assumed that he wouldn't be able to dodge.
Nowhere it's stated to be impossible to dodge.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:AlexSoloVaAlFuturo/Sasuke's_Kirin_speed?comments_page=1
Kepley was the one to do the Calc and nowhere it is said to be impossible to dodge its just hard plus itachi was in a really bad condition that's why it was assumed that he wouldn't be able to dodge.
Nowhere it's stated to be impossible to dodge.
- 14,409
- 1,692
Damage3245 said:
"Sasuke considered natural lighting to be impossible to dodge" your literal words. These isn't any other way to interpret that literally man. That's a hyperbole and u can't explain it without changing your words.
It's not that anyone is misunderstanding you; you aren't getting your point across. That's what always turns your threads into circle debates no matter the verse
- 829
- 168
...... PFfffffff....
Excuse me! I couldn't help but laugh at it, really! The hypocrisy is very high, beloved jesus!
Returning to my self ...
I'll be back when Tata returns. I will see if he has something to add to it!
Excuse me! I couldn't help but laugh at it, really! The hypocrisy is very high, beloved jesus!
Returning to my self ...
I'll be back when Tata returns. I will see if he has something to add to it!
- 31,590
- 28,052
- Thread starter
- #90
@AstralKing7; I shall explain it in greater detail in the morning.
@MostPowerfull; your post contributes nothing to the thread.
@MostPowerfull; your post contributes nothing to the thread.
- 14,409
- 1,692
A beam of light being impossible to dodge? Tmw naruot dofges it. But no we don't wanna look at that statement as hyperbole on this thread now since it's not consistent with FTL Naruto verse ƒÿɃÿɃÿɃÿæ
Does anyone else not see the problem?? How is something going to be a hyperbole one minute and not on the previous threads???
We're gonna take that obvious hyperbole as fact even tho this thread is about calling Near light speed a hyperbole when it's not debunked by naruot dodging it like he didn't the impossible Beam??
Nani??? Until Someone answer that question about the double standards any hyperbole argument should be disregarded like always since the original upgrade thread
Does anyone else not see the problem?? How is something going to be a hyperbole one minute and not on the previous threads???
We're gonna take that obvious hyperbole as fact even tho this thread is about calling Near light speed a hyperbole when it's not debunked by naruot dodging it like he didn't the impossible Beam??
Nani??? Until Someone answer that question about the double standards any hyperbole argument should be disregarded like always since the original upgrade thread
- 1,596
- 177
Iv edited my comment and shown that nowhere is it stated to be impossible to dodge.
- 3,536
- 1,268
https://www.***********.net/naruto/390/19
end of chapter 390 . it say it here that sasuke consider kirin , like amaterasu , impossible to be dodged .
i don't really have an opinion of the subject at hand but i do consider it weird for a kage to already be half the speed of light when a far far stronger naruto barely dodged a supposed light speed "Lightfang".
heh*shrug*
end of chapter 390 . it say it here that sasuke consider kirin , like amaterasu , impossible to be dodged .
i don't really have an opinion of the subject at hand but i do consider it weird for a kage to already be half the speed of light when a far far stronger naruto barely dodged a supposed light speed "Lightfang".
heh*shrug*
- 4,327
- 2,979
You're being misleading by not posting all the scans and fan translations.AshenCrow777 said:
Sasuke states it's not possible to dodge.
Zetsu confirms Sasuke said that.
Black Zetsu says it's impossible to dodge since it uses lightning for speed.
How can these characters be Relativistic when they're saying lightning is impossible to dodge.
- 3,536
- 1,268
itachi could at least react to it thanks to sharingan and activate susano so there's that .
but for black zetsu , pretty much the "creator" of the shinobi world, saying that lightning is impossible to dodge is pretty huge . It say that lightning speed is absolute top tier for the verse at this time , and only in reaction speed only , possibly .
that is how i interpret it anyway .
but for black zetsu , pretty much the "creator" of the shinobi world, saying that lightning is impossible to dodge is pretty huge . It say that lightning speed is absolute top tier for the verse at this time , and only in reaction speed only , possibly .
that is how i interpret it anyway .
- 31,590
- 28,052
- Thread starter
- #96
In case anyone comes back with "Itachi blocked it with Susano'o so Sasuke is wrong", don't forget that Sasuke did not know of the existence of Susano'o or the Yata Mirror at that time.
That does not mean Sasuke is wrong when it comes to the unavoidable part of his statement, at least in terms of the characters whose combat speed Sasuke is familiar with.
That does not mean Sasuke is wrong when it comes to the unavoidable part of his statement, at least in terms of the characters whose combat speed Sasuke is familiar with.
- 15,950
- 12,360
To be completely honest, I don't see either side as wrong. The verse states and shows both arguments it's matter of who accepts what.
- 829
- 168
What? Oh my God...
Sasuke's first statement ... He says it's impossible to block or dodge... Itachi blocked almost blind and dying with his Susano'o, which in itself already debunk this and the third statement. Saying something like "Sasuke didn't know about Susano'o" ... It's literally the same argument I can use for "Sasuke is lying" or "It's hyperbole."
Zetsu's second statement ... He says Kirin is impossible to dodge, just like Amaterasu ... Whose Sasuke dodged around Itachi and later, Raikage himself dodged it at close range.
The third ... He says he can't dodge, because he falls to the ground in 1/1000 of a second. That is ... depends on the distance from the cloud. It's subjective.
So all this is literally ignorant of the context of what was presented. At least two of these statements are already contradicted at the same time and the other is subjective at a distance.
Itachi blocked and Sasuke dodged Kirin and his expansion. Other than that, it has been refuted before. I find it funny how they say "this has been discussed before", "nothing new has been introduced" how they are telling Kukui, when they keep repeating the same debunked things. Hypocrite and hilarious, to say the least!
Sasuke's first statement ... He says it's impossible to block or dodge... Itachi blocked almost blind and dying with his Susano'o, which in itself already debunk this and the third statement. Saying something like "Sasuke didn't know about Susano'o" ... It's literally the same argument I can use for "Sasuke is lying" or "It's hyperbole."
Zetsu's second statement ... He says Kirin is impossible to dodge, just like Amaterasu ... Whose Sasuke dodged around Itachi and later, Raikage himself dodged it at close range.
The third ... He says he can't dodge, because he falls to the ground in 1/1000 of a second. That is ... depends on the distance from the cloud. It's subjective.
So all this is literally ignorant of the context of what was presented. At least two of these statements are already contradicted at the same time and the other is subjective at a distance.
Itachi blocked and Sasuke dodged Kirin and his expansion. Other than that, it has been refuted before. I find it funny how they say "this has been discussed before", "nothing new has been introduced" how they are telling Kukui, when they keep repeating the same debunked things. Hypocrite and hilarious, to say the least!
- 1,596
- 177
You guys realize that's it's the first time Sasuke actually use this jitsu on someone second of I have posted the link to the thread that kepley made the Calc also that wasnt Fans translation it was the actual thing and how dare you accuse me of being dishonest when I clearly state this comes from the official calc made by Kep and reviewed by others.
1.And again all of your points prove nothing because not only that's the first real time Sasuke used that just he never knew that something like susano even existed which invalidates your point.
2.see above plus amaterasu as been stopped several times and contained in the series so zetsu commenting on stuff that he dosent even knows does not support your argument.
Itachi didn't dodged it he block it also zetsu and Sasuke had to get out of the blast zone lol so much for "impossible to evade justsu".
In conclusion you are extremely wrong since what Itachi does completely goes against what you are trying to.
LOL and I'm the misleading one sure.
1.And again all of your points prove nothing because not only that's the first real time Sasuke used that just he never knew that something like susano even existed which invalidates your point.
2.see above plus amaterasu as been stopped several times and contained in the series so zetsu commenting on stuff that he dosent even knows does not support your argument.
Itachi didn't dodged it he block it also zetsu and Sasuke had to get out of the blast zone lol so much for "impossible to evade justsu".
In conclusion you are extremely wrong since what Itachi does completely goes against what you are trying to.
LOL and I'm the misleading one sure.
- 31,590
- 28,052
- Thread starter
- #100
Both of you have just completely ignored what I've posted.
Nothing of what I've said has been refuted here regarding Kirin.
Nothing of what I've said has been refuted here regarding Kirin.
- 829
- 168
You can mark me anytime you want on my wall, I'll explain it all to you again.
Literally everything you said, I've already debunked it two or three times. So I think we can already stop derailing this thread with Kirin.
Literally everything you said, I've already debunked it two or three times. So I think we can already stop derailing this thread with Kirin.
- 3,536
- 1,268
i think he used it many time to master it and witnessed the lightning himself this many time too and he concluded that even a sharingan user like him , who have insane reaction time akin to precog, can't dodge that attack .AshenCrow777 said:
and he isn't wrong , itachi could react to it and block it but only thank to thought based susano activation . he couldn't move out of the way and i don't think we can see him move at all during the fall of kirin itself .
so lightning is too fast to dodge it , even with the sharingan at this point in the story.
before the excuse of "itachi was weakened" if he can use the susano in this state , surely he could jumped out the way .
- 1,596
- 177
But Itachi's Sharingan was leagues above Sasukes lol Itachi was way to injured to move and basically dying so thats why the best course of action was to use susano if something is impossible to dodge it means that it is impossible to dodge.
Also " even a sharingan user like him , who have insane reaction time akin to precog, can't dodge that attack ." you mean the same Sharingan user that tought the only other person that had a real pair of Sharingan was itachi? The same one that didn't even know about obitos existence.
I doubt Sasuke would have been able to Tag Madara or heck even Minato for that matter.
There's a difference between training and actually applying what you know in training in actual combat.
I'm sorry but Sasuke is not qualified to know what a true Sharingan user can dodge or not.
Also " even a sharingan user like him , who have insane reaction time akin to precog, can't dodge that attack ." you mean the same Sharingan user that tought the only other person that had a real pair of Sharingan was itachi? The same one that didn't even know about obitos existence.
I doubt Sasuke would have been able to Tag Madara or heck even Minato for that matter.
There's a difference between training and actually applying what you know in training in actual combat.
I'm sorry but Sasuke is not qualified to know what a true Sharingan user can dodge or not.
- 14,409
- 1,692
Tmw Sasuke states it's impossible to dodge and zetsu backs him up knowing that the Raikage is a person ƒÆǃÆǃÆÇ okay I like the arguments being made
- 1,596
- 177
Bee and A are the prime example of characters faster than Sasukes Kirin and if we throw in minato with his incredible reaction time some other members of the akatsuki edo Itachi and edo nagato and many many more Sasukes statement obviously is an hyperbole and let's not forget that was the time when Sasuke was drunk on revenge And power hungry.
Heavens_Feel
She/Her- 227
- 127
About time this got more exposure. I agree this wank needs to go. People actually be making ftl+ minato calcs and believe it to be true. This "Naruto boys club" has ruined this series' accuracy on this website to just make it super duper strong and it's disgusting.
Sorry if that comes accross as harsh but that's just how it is i'm afraid
Sorry if that comes accross as harsh but that's just how it is i'm afraid
- 8,753
- 1,617
Regardless of your opinion, and I say this agreeing that the lightning situation is dubious at best, drop that tone. It is not a good tone. It is a little too aggressive and demeaning, and sounds more than personal enough. It doesn't help, it literally never does, so don't.
- 662
- 315
Every staff and calc member is notified whenever these so-called "Naruto Boys Club" wants to make the series "super duper strong". And their approval is key for these changes. You're basically saying that all these people ruined the series' accuracy on this website.Heavens Feel said:
Please stop sounding like an A-hole. Especially since I've noticed you don't even add something noteworthy most of the time.
You just sound like you hate the series and its supporters.
- 31,590
- 28,052
- Thread starter
- #109
@Heavens Feel; please try to remain civil if you're going to post on this thread.
@AshenCrow777; the point of Sasuke's statement is not to rule out the entire verse as being incapable of dodging or blocking Kirin. That's ignoring who made the statement and when. Instead we need to look at characters who Sasuke has knowledge of their combat speed at this time (as in, not Minato or Killer B, etc.) but characters like Orochimaru, Deidara, Itachi, Kakashi, Karin, Jugo, Suigetsu, etc.
If Sasuke is stating he considers it impossible to evade (and he has no reason to lie here) and he knows how fast these other characters are, that absolutely implies that these characters are slower than Kirin.
@AshenCrow777; the point of Sasuke's statement is not to rule out the entire verse as being incapable of dodging or blocking Kirin. That's ignoring who made the statement and when. Instead we need to look at characters who Sasuke has knowledge of their combat speed at this time (as in, not Minato or Killer B, etc.) but characters like Orochimaru, Deidara, Itachi, Kakashi, Karin, Jugo, Suigetsu, etc.
If Sasuke is stating he considers it impossible to evade (and he has no reason to lie here) and he knows how fast these other characters are, that absolutely implies that these characters are slower than Kirin.
- 5,460
- 1,861
I agree that the scaling needs to be fixed, but I dont agree with the lariat being an outlier.
- 5,460
- 1,861
On your Sasuke example you neglect to mention the page before where sasuke asks Kirin the read Bees movements and relay that to sasuke so he knows where he is. You also dont seem to notice just how far Killer Bee is from Sasuke, so he doesnt need to be rel+ to react to his Lariat. This whole thing can be solved if we focus on the scaling of the verse.
- 31,590
- 28,052
- Thread starter
- #112
@Wrath of Itachi; that would only be relevant if Karin actually relayed Bee's position to Sasuke which she never does.
- 5,460
- 1,861
Did you read everything I wrote?
- 31,590
- 28,052
- Thread starter
- #114
Yes. The rest of your post doesn't actually address the point I was making.
Sasuke not needing to be Rel+ to react to the Lariat doesn't change the issue I pointed out that the text is misleading when it says the Lariat doesn't give time for the opponent for activate their own technique.
Sasuke not needing to be Rel+ to react to the Lariat doesn't change the issue I pointed out that the text is misleading when it says the Lariat doesn't give time for the opponent for activate their own technique.
- 1,596
- 177
But isn't genjutsu thought based plus it has precognition on an incredible level.
- 2,519
- 1,364
I've read over most of the the thread and the OP now so i'll be talking about the points you made Damage
1. "Currently base Naruto has no justification for his Massively Hypersonic+ speed rating."
1. Via the scaling in place he should realistically be Rel+ as he can scale off Kakashi who scales off Kabuto who scales off Tsunade who is Rel+
2. "Kakashi is rated as Massively Hypersonic+ for a speed calc of his, but his justification also mentions him keeping up with Pai who is Relativistic for being comparable to Kisame."
2. You're right Kakashi should be upgraded
3. "Kabuto , Deidara, Sasuke, Danzo, Tente, Sai Yamanaka, Hanzō, Menma Uzumaki all simply need to be upgraded, i don't understand the point in even bringing these up considering your overall point
4. "One of the main issues for me is that the statement does not appear to have any solid support from the original manga itself. There is no mention or implication of the Raikage or Killer B having feats of speed at Relativistic+ levels."
4. There's absolutely no difference between us getting a statement of how a jutsu works between the manga and databook, yes the databook has hyperboles but so does the manga, does this mean we throw the manga out too? Kishimoto makes it very clear at the start of all his databooks that the databooks are explanations of how Jutsu works, if a jutsu is stated to be near SOL in the manga it's the exact same as in the manga, if Madara says he can destroy a universe in the manga it's the exact same as a hyperbole in the databook, people don't seem to understand that
5. "Yes, the Raikage are commonly known to be "super fast" guys going by Naruto's observation but the Lariat technique being 51% Lightspeed would make it around two hundred times faster than Kakashi's feat of just managing to intercept Kakauzu's attack which is assumed to be average lightning speed."
5. Which doesn't matter at all, lower feats don't debunk higher feats, this is the equivalent of me saying DBZ characters are slower than light because they have feats that are less than light speed later on....that's not how it works at all, we always use their highest feats to scale them from
6. "It is a huge gap of speed in the verse. Which is what leads me to think that it is an outlier; especially since it has been used to retroactively scale so many characters in the verse to Relativistic or Relativistic+ levels."
6. No it isn't, what's huge about it? It's only around 2-3 tiers difference, and the number is only 200, if a verse has multiple 1x FTL feats and a 200x FTL feat is the 200x FTL feat seen as an outlier? No it isn't, we've had higher gaps than "200x difference" that have been acce[pted here, and you're ignoring the support that Rel has within the verse
7. "At least part of that databook entry is exaggerated anyway, since it claims that the opponent can't even activate a technique before getting hit, yet Sasuke was able to put Killer B under Genjutsu while Killer B was performing the Lariat."
7. Complete pointless point to make for anyone who knows how to debate and is aware of what Fallacy by association means, not even going to waste my time on this
8. "There is only one calc in the verse that comes close to the statement and it is Madara's reaction feat to the Ethereal Transmission jutsu which some people consider to be an ambiguous feat. Some people have pushed hard for this calc to be accepted in order to support the databook statement and make the databook statement appear like less of an outlier."
8. Damage it's not an outlier at all, i don't think you know what an outlier is from your words so i'll describe it for you and break down the entire thing
firstly the definition of an outlier
"a fact, figure, piece of data, etc. that is very different from all the others in a set and does not seem to fit the same patter:"
What do we have that disproves Lariat being near LS? People simply saying that they can't believe it, or the manga never stating it despite that being the entire point of the existence of the databooks, to fill in for areas where the manga never bothered to expand on
There's absolutely nothing contradicting Lariat's speed, let's get that out the way first, whereas we have a statement from the databooks telling us Lariat's speed.
As for it being very different from all the other feats
Light speed is a constant in Naruto, regardless of it being an outlier early on (Hell we had LS characters in the first arc of Naruto albeit it being an outlier for anyone reacting to) or it not scaling to a characters movement or reaction speed (Light Fang/Ethereal transmission), it's obvious that Kishimoto is constantly attempting to prove that Light speed isn't a problem within the Narutoverse, hell he literally showed us multiple times characters reacting to light speed attacks (Edo Madara, SOSP Naruto) even after he told us they were lightspeed, so to say that something that is "Near LS" in a verse full of light speed abilities is asinine.
9. "But aside from that Naruto Shippuden currently has half a few MHS+ calcs which could be used for scaling instead.
I think we should either dismiss the statement and examine what the speed scaling would be like with the Madara reaction feat alone, or get rid of both of them and rate the verse appropriately using the other calcs available."
9. I'm not sure whether you did this intentionally or not but this is genuienly a terrible way of debating, your choice of words literally makes this a loaded question but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you didn't do this intentionally, for the record saying "MY WAY IS APPROPRIATE!!" is a horrible way of setting up an argument, you're literally insinuating that any other way to do it isn't the appropriate way
Why should we have to dismiss the statement when we have multiple feats for support of the cast being that fast?
1. Edo Madara reacting to LS attacks
2. SOSP Naruto reacting to an LS attack
3. Guy Approaching the speed of light in 8th gate
4. Lariat is Near Light speed
5. Madara is able to shoot attacks at the speed of light
6. Even fodder characters have no problems moving things at the speed of light
It's apparently ok to scale the entire 200 pokemon Rel+ characters off Solar beam but not ok to scale Naruto characters to Rel+ off MULTIPLE feats and in a verse where it's been proven time and time again that SOL isn't a problematic speed and the author intended for them to reach those speeds very early on albeit changing his mind through the chunin exams.
10. "Just because the statement exists in the databook does not mean we have to be forced to use it to rate the profiles, we take the databooks on case-by-case basis anyway.
Whether you agree with using the statement or not; there are a lot of issues with speed ratings as I pointed out above."
10. Yes it is a case by case basis and it's entirelly based on if YOU can prove it is a hyperbole
Which you've failed to do, all you've done is cast doubt on something and assumed that that alone completely debunks said thing, Can you provide anything in the anime, manga or databooks that states or implies that Lariat is slower than those speeds?
No, so i think it's ridicilous to take your doubt of something over the authors actual words on the ability.
Now i'll reference some of the comments in here
1. "Impossible to dodge" shouldn't be taken seariously,what do you expect?For Sasuke not to dodge the Lariat and die?Or for Naruto not to dodge light fang and die?Thats the description to hype the jutsu.
Yet "Nearly the speed of light" is meant to be taken at face value?
1. It's hard to understand how this is a genuine point someone is making
Hyperbole: "exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally."
How do we know "Impossible to dodge" is a hyperbole? Because it was dodged
How do we know Lariat isn't a hyperbole? Because it's never been contradicted, by anything, at all, it's not like someone has come out and said "Lariat isn't Nearly SOL!", i don't see why it's so hard to distinguish between an obvious hyperbole and something that isn't, but i can't expect much considering this wiki didn't even accept the naruto databook for like 3 years based on that same reasoning
Most of the counter arguments are "Well if Lariat is Near LS then why are characters acting like Slower attacks are impressive!!"
Naruto is NOT the first nor the last series to do this, there are tons of series that have this and to only call out Naruto for it and act like it's a debunk would be completely hypocritical
I mean we have Saint seiya characters with Septillions x FTL ratings that think SOL is an insane speed early on in Saint seiya, is Candice from Bleach only building level because she thinks gigajoules of energy is an impressive attack and enough to turn a relevant bleach character to ashes? I suppose we should downgrade anyone below/Around candice to 8-B and all gold saints to Light speed because Leo said SOL was an insane speed and was shocked at someone possibly going FTL, i can name so many other series that do this, it's simply an inconsistency with Kirin, i mean it doesn't even make sense considering we've had lightning timers since Kakashi was a kid, it's just another dumb villain bragging about how strong and fast he is and how the hero has no chance only for the hero to pull out a secret ability that proves the Hero wrong
This took me long to type out so i'm done for now, i'll still be here to answer anything else but besides that i'm out
1. "Currently base Naruto has no justification for his Massively Hypersonic+ speed rating."
1. Via the scaling in place he should realistically be Rel+ as he can scale off Kakashi who scales off Kabuto who scales off Tsunade who is Rel+
2. "Kakashi is rated as Massively Hypersonic+ for a speed calc of his, but his justification also mentions him keeping up with Pai who is Relativistic for being comparable to Kisame."
2. You're right Kakashi should be upgraded
3. "Kabuto , Deidara, Sasuke, Danzo, Tente, Sai Yamanaka, Hanzō, Menma Uzumaki all simply need to be upgraded, i don't understand the point in even bringing these up considering your overall point
4. "One of the main issues for me is that the statement does not appear to have any solid support from the original manga itself. There is no mention or implication of the Raikage or Killer B having feats of speed at Relativistic+ levels."
4. There's absolutely no difference between us getting a statement of how a jutsu works between the manga and databook, yes the databook has hyperboles but so does the manga, does this mean we throw the manga out too? Kishimoto makes it very clear at the start of all his databooks that the databooks are explanations of how Jutsu works, if a jutsu is stated to be near SOL in the manga it's the exact same as in the manga, if Madara says he can destroy a universe in the manga it's the exact same as a hyperbole in the databook, people don't seem to understand that
5. "Yes, the Raikage are commonly known to be "super fast" guys going by Naruto's observation but the Lariat technique being 51% Lightspeed would make it around two hundred times faster than Kakashi's feat of just managing to intercept Kakauzu's attack which is assumed to be average lightning speed."
5. Which doesn't matter at all, lower feats don't debunk higher feats, this is the equivalent of me saying DBZ characters are slower than light because they have feats that are less than light speed later on....that's not how it works at all, we always use their highest feats to scale them from
6. "It is a huge gap of speed in the verse. Which is what leads me to think that it is an outlier; especially since it has been used to retroactively scale so many characters in the verse to Relativistic or Relativistic+ levels."
6. No it isn't, what's huge about it? It's only around 2-3 tiers difference, and the number is only 200, if a verse has multiple 1x FTL feats and a 200x FTL feat is the 200x FTL feat seen as an outlier? No it isn't, we've had higher gaps than "200x difference" that have been acce[pted here, and you're ignoring the support that Rel has within the verse
7. "At least part of that databook entry is exaggerated anyway, since it claims that the opponent can't even activate a technique before getting hit, yet Sasuke was able to put Killer B under Genjutsu while Killer B was performing the Lariat."
7. Complete pointless point to make for anyone who knows how to debate and is aware of what Fallacy by association means, not even going to waste my time on this
8. "There is only one calc in the verse that comes close to the statement and it is Madara's reaction feat to the Ethereal Transmission jutsu which some people consider to be an ambiguous feat. Some people have pushed hard for this calc to be accepted in order to support the databook statement and make the databook statement appear like less of an outlier."
8. Damage it's not an outlier at all, i don't think you know what an outlier is from your words so i'll describe it for you and break down the entire thing
firstly the definition of an outlier
"a fact, figure, piece of data, etc. that is very different from all the others in a set and does not seem to fit the same patter:"
What do we have that disproves Lariat being near LS? People simply saying that they can't believe it, or the manga never stating it despite that being the entire point of the existence of the databooks, to fill in for areas where the manga never bothered to expand on
There's absolutely nothing contradicting Lariat's speed, let's get that out the way first, whereas we have a statement from the databooks telling us Lariat's speed.
As for it being very different from all the other feats
Light speed is a constant in Naruto, regardless of it being an outlier early on (Hell we had LS characters in the first arc of Naruto albeit it being an outlier for anyone reacting to) or it not scaling to a characters movement or reaction speed (Light Fang/Ethereal transmission), it's obvious that Kishimoto is constantly attempting to prove that Light speed isn't a problem within the Narutoverse, hell he literally showed us multiple times characters reacting to light speed attacks (Edo Madara, SOSP Naruto) even after he told us they were lightspeed, so to say that something that is "Near LS" in a verse full of light speed abilities is asinine.
9. "But aside from that Naruto Shippuden currently has half a few MHS+ calcs which could be used for scaling instead.
I think we should either dismiss the statement and examine what the speed scaling would be like with the Madara reaction feat alone, or get rid of both of them and rate the verse appropriately using the other calcs available."
9. I'm not sure whether you did this intentionally or not but this is genuienly a terrible way of debating, your choice of words literally makes this a loaded question but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you didn't do this intentionally, for the record saying "MY WAY IS APPROPRIATE!!" is a horrible way of setting up an argument, you're literally insinuating that any other way to do it isn't the appropriate way
Why should we have to dismiss the statement when we have multiple feats for support of the cast being that fast?
1. Edo Madara reacting to LS attacks
2. SOSP Naruto reacting to an LS attack
3. Guy Approaching the speed of light in 8th gate
4. Lariat is Near Light speed
5. Madara is able to shoot attacks at the speed of light
6. Even fodder characters have no problems moving things at the speed of light
It's apparently ok to scale the entire 200 pokemon Rel+ characters off Solar beam but not ok to scale Naruto characters to Rel+ off MULTIPLE feats and in a verse where it's been proven time and time again that SOL isn't a problematic speed and the author intended for them to reach those speeds very early on albeit changing his mind through the chunin exams.
10. "Just because the statement exists in the databook does not mean we have to be forced to use it to rate the profiles, we take the databooks on case-by-case basis anyway.
Whether you agree with using the statement or not; there are a lot of issues with speed ratings as I pointed out above."
10. Yes it is a case by case basis and it's entirelly based on if YOU can prove it is a hyperbole
Which you've failed to do, all you've done is cast doubt on something and assumed that that alone completely debunks said thing, Can you provide anything in the anime, manga or databooks that states or implies that Lariat is slower than those speeds?
No, so i think it's ridicilous to take your doubt of something over the authors actual words on the ability.
Now i'll reference some of the comments in here
1. "Impossible to dodge" shouldn't be taken seariously,what do you expect?For Sasuke not to dodge the Lariat and die?Or for Naruto not to dodge light fang and die?Thats the description to hype the jutsu.
Yet "Nearly the speed of light" is meant to be taken at face value?
1. It's hard to understand how this is a genuine point someone is making
Hyperbole: "exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally."
How do we know "Impossible to dodge" is a hyperbole? Because it was dodged
How do we know Lariat isn't a hyperbole? Because it's never been contradicted, by anything, at all, it's not like someone has come out and said "Lariat isn't Nearly SOL!", i don't see why it's so hard to distinguish between an obvious hyperbole and something that isn't, but i can't expect much considering this wiki didn't even accept the naruto databook for like 3 years based on that same reasoning
Most of the counter arguments are "Well if Lariat is Near LS then why are characters acting like Slower attacks are impressive!!"
Naruto is NOT the first nor the last series to do this, there are tons of series that have this and to only call out Naruto for it and act like it's a debunk would be completely hypocritical
I mean we have Saint seiya characters with Septillions x FTL ratings that think SOL is an insane speed early on in Saint seiya, is Candice from Bleach only building level because she thinks gigajoules of energy is an impressive attack and enough to turn a relevant bleach character to ashes? I suppose we should downgrade anyone below/Around candice to 8-B and all gold saints to Light speed because Leo said SOL was an insane speed and was shocked at someone possibly going FTL, i can name so many other series that do this, it's simply an inconsistency with Kirin, i mean it doesn't even make sense considering we've had lightning timers since Kakashi was a kid, it's just another dumb villain bragging about how strong and fast he is and how the hero has no chance only for the hero to pull out a secret ability that proves the Hero wrong
This took me long to type out so i'm done for now, i'll still be here to answer anything else but besides that i'm out
- 31,590
- 28,052
- Thread starter
- #117
> Naruto is NOT the first nor the last series to do this, there are tons of series that have this and to only call out Naruto for it and act like it's a debunk would be completely hypocritical
Don't pretend like I'm solely singling out Naruto for this. This thread just happens to be for the issues in Naruto. If another series has a problem, that doesn't justify any other series getting away with it.
> it's simply an inconsistency with Kirin
Or, the databook is an inconsistency.
You're trying to bring up a bunch of other feats to make the Lariat seem like less of an outlier but it really isn't working.
1) Edo Madara reacting to LS attacks
I've already stated my opinion on this one.
2) SOSP Naruto reacting to an LS attack
Last time I checked it was accepted that Naruto only dodged the head swing.
3) Guy Approaching the speed of light in 8th gate
Never stated. That's only an assumption.
5) Madara is able to shoot attacks at the speed of light
Correction; only a single specific attack of Madara's is accepted to be lightspeed.
6) Even fodder characters have no problems moving things at the speed of light
Correction; only a single character has displayed the Ethereal Transmission jutsu which has nothing to do with her combat speed or movement speed.
So out of that list you've only really got one which could support most of the verse have Relativistic combat speed.
Don't pretend like I'm solely singling out Naruto for this. This thread just happens to be for the issues in Naruto. If another series has a problem, that doesn't justify any other series getting away with it.
> it's simply an inconsistency with Kirin
Or, the databook is an inconsistency.
You're trying to bring up a bunch of other feats to make the Lariat seem like less of an outlier but it really isn't working.
1) Edo Madara reacting to LS attacks
I've already stated my opinion on this one.
2) SOSP Naruto reacting to an LS attack
Last time I checked it was accepted that Naruto only dodged the head swing.
3) Guy Approaching the speed of light in 8th gate
Never stated. That's only an assumption.
5) Madara is able to shoot attacks at the speed of light
Correction; only a single specific attack of Madara's is accepted to be lightspeed.
6) Even fodder characters have no problems moving things at the speed of light
Correction; only a single character has displayed the Ethereal Transmission jutsu which has nothing to do with her combat speed or movement speed.
So out of that list you've only really got one which could support most of the verse have Relativistic combat speed.
- 1,596
- 177
I agree with Tata.
- 662
- 315
Tata makes great points.
All that's really needed to do to solve this problem is just to upgrade some profiles. There's no need to fuss over it. Seriously.
All that's really needed to do to solve this problem is just to upgrade some profiles. There's no need to fuss over it. Seriously.
- 662
- 315
Far bigger gaps of upgrade in speed in literally any verse is accepted without trouble, but this kind of comparably meager upgrade is not, apparently.
And people wonder why some fans think Naruto is mistreated.
And people wonder why some fans think Naruto is mistreated.
- Status
Similar threads
