Issues with Speed [Naruto]

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Also I don't think this is an outlier. I just think it's not legit. Lariat being that fast is completely unsupported in the manga proper.

As I've said from the beginning, it's just a hyperbolic statement. Nothing in the verse supports it and there are so much context bits that contradict such speed.

Just the fact that Zetsu and Sasuke refer to natural lightning speed being too fast to dodge is enough proof that he is not relativistic.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

@Damage3245; If the translation in IMade's scan is correct, then Zetsu's confirmation means nothing, as it was structured as if it was a question. Which means he's reiterating Sasuke's words, not confirming it.

Zetsu's exact words were " No one can evade the jutsu... just like the Amaterasu?!". Those aren't separate sentences, as far as I see.

 

[AstralKing7]

Physically??? Obito has kept pace with KCM Naruto tho.... kept pace with Minato. Kept pace with Kakashi. Damage I don't see your point


Obito would still have to move and dodge Kirin because he won't just reappear anywhere before looking to see the blast radius

 

[Damage3245]

@JohnHendrix212; that is White Zetsu. Black Zetsu's thoughts are here.

 

[MostPowerfull]

Well ... As I expected, Tata added good points that completed mine own points.
I totally agree with him.

Until someone proves that Lariat is hyperbole ... As far as I know, the CRT where he passed it remains intact.

Laughing a lot of people saying that nothing in the manga complements databook, when it is just the opposite.

Just like Tata, the points answered ... I'm getting out of it!

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

We don't have to prove a negative, MP. You and Taka would have to prove that it's legitimately what it says to be in the guidebook (which we all agreed to be case by case), as opposed to the lack of anything stated or shown about its speed in the manga.

 

[MostPowerfull]

What? You can't scream that this is hyperbole and state it, and want us to prove what doesn't exist. Nothing has been added new, not already said in CRT. Nothing really calls into question the truth of a statement. All we have there are desperate screams from people who, like me, don't want Naruto FTL. That is the fact!

Arguments have already been given and there is no hyperbole, especially with the ridiculous assumption that "manga doesn't help databook" when this is the function of Databook for manga.

Lariat underwent an extensive CRT before being integrated. So, yes ... You who have to make the narrative and present arguments that prove Lariat (which is not contradicted by anything and that alone, is an argument) is a hyperbole or something.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

"What? You can't scream that this is hyperbole and state it, and want us to prove what doesn't exist."

And there lies the problem. You can't prove what doesn't exist. If it were legitimate, then you could, as it would exist.

Databooks exist to back up stuff from the manga. This lone statement would support something if there was something originally to back up.

 

[Damage3245]

And though you don't agree with it MostPowerfull, the existence of the Kirin statement does call into question the truth of the Lariat statement.

In terms of priority, Manga > Databook.

 

[MostPowerfull]

Tata and I prove the consistency of the feat and prove that it is not contradicted. If it is not contradicted, it is usable. Reasons do not exist to be hyperbole.

Originally. Databook supports Lariat, so it's complemented with something from the manga. LOL! The statement is about a technique that exists in the manga, so databook is doing its job. How you deal with it, I don't care at all, as long as you have reason to say what you say, and I'm happy to dismiss it as long as someone quotes a REAL PROBLEM.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah, and the databook could also say "Lariat is so strong that a distant galaxy is rended by its mere activation." Would you say it's legitimate then? Nothing in the manga supports it being relativistic. And all the relativistic feats in the series have been debunked time and time again, barring this one which is still in the process. The subrel feat(s) is legit, sure. But not the relativistic ones.

 

[MostPowerfull]

LOL! None of Kirin checks Lariat's veracity.

Kirin's own statements contradict what Sasuke and Zetsu say and how you try to mask it to suit your narrative is just your headcanon.

 

[MostPowerfull]

I will not care about the hypetext surrounding databook ... In a moment they will say "sun in Naruto's heart = 4-C". I will ignore this part and preserve my sanity. And I really dont know where "strong than a galaxy". LOL!

Who should provide support for the manga is databook. It is he who tells the speed of the Lariat. If the manga did that, we wouldn't need a databook.

Lariat and Edo Madara's feats ... have never been refuted and most likely will not be!
But I am intrigued by the competence to do so! So far, I haven't seen it! "...

 

[Damage3245]

@MostPowerfull; you're very much wrong on that. The Kirin statement has far more support going for it than the Lariat statement.

I've already explained it well enough, but if you have any questions where you don't understand what the Kirin statement means exactly, feel free to ask me.

EDIT: A single ambiguous feat is far from enough evidence to upgrade the speed of the majority of the verse from MHS+ to Relativistic+.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

According to the current scaling and proposed scaling from the ones in favor of Lariat, Hida ends up scaling which also ends up scaling to Asuma which ends up scaling to Shikamaru who scales to Hidan. Hell even Choji scales based off justification as well as Ino.

Edit - Kiba scales to Ino as well and Shino scales to Kiba. So now adult Shino is also Rel since he's superior to his teen self.

Mitsuki has this on his profile Possibly Massively Hypersonic+ reactions (Has reacted to Suigetsu while he was distracted)

Suigetsu is Rel though on his profile so Mitsuki scales as well.

 

[MostPowerfull]

No, I'm not really!

First ... Killer B and MAINLY Ay, are much faster than Sasuke Taka, while with his Mangekyou. Soon, claiming Sasuke's knowledge to "justify" his talk about Kirin, Lariat, etc., they would be out. They are much faster, even on BASE, of the version to which the statements came from.

Second ... Ay is faster than Amaterasu himself, point-blank. Which was declared by Zetsu to be similar to Kirin and impossible to dodge/block (something already contradicted by Sasuke, who dodged him).

Third ... Lariat is Ay's second fastest technique. He literally only loses to that ultra-fast punch he gave in Minato and Naruto KCM.

So ... Kirin's statement does not interfere with Lariat, as it was used on Sasuke Taka, not Sasuke Hebi and by characters much faster than Sasuke Hebi and most of all, a completely injured and blind Itachi (who, by himself, already managed to block it). He does not contradict him and especially has no involvement with him.

So, yes ... You are wrong!

 

[MostPowerfull]

About Edit ... Even the speed scale itself on the verser debunks you. It's quite simple! Genins are MHS +.
Ay is already much faster than Sasuke Taka, who is much faster than any New Generation genin and / or Shino / Konohamaru. Therefore, no matter what you say, you cannot claim inconsistency and consequently outlier.

 

[Damage3245]

@MostPowerfull; once again you completely misunderstand what I'm talking about. I'm struggling to break this down any simpler for you.

Your three points completely don't address my argument at all.

My argument has nothing to do with the combat speed of Killer B and A whom Sasuke has no knowledge about; but about characters that Sasuke does have knowledge about.

And your point about the New Generation and New Era Shino / Konohamaru is even more irrelevant! Do you not realize that those characters don't exist at the time the statement was made?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Mangekyo doesn't make you faster though...? And remind when exactly are they faster normally? Only moment Sasuke can't really keep up with B is his swords, which has nothing to do with speed and a lot more to do with complexity and numbers. Lariat hit him the moment he turned back while being out of breath.

When was Amateratsu compared to Kirin? Some scans would be helpful.

Being his second fastest technique is inconsequential as proof if he's already scaling to statements about it's speed.

A lot seems to be odd in here.

 

[MostPowerfull]

... Or to summarize ... Nothing in Kirin compromises Lariat, as it is beyond Sasuke's knowledge.

So they didn't exist? Their scale is still smaller than most Shippuden characters. Therefore, his achievements are simply COMPLEMENTS at the speed of any high tier on the back.
You can chew and try to lie to yourself that this will never change.
This is literally the first time I see ...

"Look, it doesn't matter that a much slower character had a feat that completely complements the faster feat. He didn't exist at that time!"

Logic makes me afraid. How is this guy CGM !?

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

According to the current scaling and proposed scaling from the ones in favor of Lariat, Hida ends up scaling which also ends up scaling to Asuma which ends up scaling to Shikamaru who scales to Hidan. Hell even Choji scales based off justification as well as Ino.
Edit - Kiba scales to Ino as well and Shino scales to Kiba. So now adult Shino is also Rel since he's superior to his teen self.

Mitsuki has this on his profile Possibly Massively Hypersonic+ reactions (Has reacted to Suigetsu while he was distracted)

Suigetsu is Rel though on his profile so Mitsuki scales as well.

This is ridiculous.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You know the more ad hominems you make the less credible you look, MP.

 

[Naeblis495]

Mangekyo doesn't make you faster though...?

if anything , taka sasuke is slower than hebi sasuke because he lost the boost from curse mark and the part of orochimaru if it gave him any kind of boost .

he got better eyes and so possibly better reaction time and precog but i think he is difinitly slower physicaly .

sasuke compared kirin to amaterasu , stating that both are "imposibble to avoid" in the end of chapter 390 iirc .

 

[MostPowerfull]

@Lancelot

I will divide this first text into two parts:

1 ┬░ I never said I was making it faster. Soon the complex of imagination and words never spoken begins. Typical! Then they get annoyed, because I start to lose my temper.
But yes, this version is faster than the previous one, this is a fact! However ... Sharingan's own "evolution" from level 2 to level 3 in Classic, shows that Sharingan's evolution gives you increases of at least reaction.

2 ┬░ - Yes ... Killler B has overtaken Sasuke and his movements several times. He is faster than the same! The rest ... irrelevant!

IMade scans or search the manga. Must be between chap 390+.

Scales over statements of your speed ... What?

 

[MostPowerfull]

@cal

Which one exactly? I say there's a lot of hypocrite here? It's a fact.

I say I disagree with Damage being a CGM? My opinion was not an ad hominem, as I did not judge him exactly (But if it sounded like that, then yes, I can apologize for the bad impression) and I think many deserved the position he chooses, like USklaverei, for example.

As you interpret what I said and how do you rate me.. Putting it in a nutshell ... I don't give a damn!

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I agree with the OP

I discussed this in a calc page, 0.51 C for that statement alone is too high, we have other series with better statements and they ended up being 0.1 C, I think it's much safer using baseline Relativistic for this, IF said statement is even usable

An Outlier can happen when you have low/mid/high Tiers performing feats that are far higher than the feats from the God Tiers when they were serious while doing them, and in Speed they have, like, some Sub Relativistic / Sub Relativistic+ feats if I'm mistaken. So maybe it's the case, I dunno

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

@cal
Which one exactly? I say there's a lot of hypocrite here? It's a fact.

I say I disagree with Damage being a CGM? My opinion was not an ad hominem, as I did not judge him exactly (But if it sounded like that, then yes, I can apologize for the bad impression) and I think many deserved the position he chooses, like USklaverei, for example.

As you interpret what I said and how do you rate me.. Putting it in a nutshell ... I don't give a damn!

Why are you attacking Damage's position as a calc member instead of his actual argument?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I don't understand the profiles speed scaling, literally everyone is suppose to scale to Rel but it seems only a select few were upgraded but kept these justifications that implies scaling. This scaling essentially debunks the statement being used unless someone genuinely believe it is fine of course. Literally everyone and their mom is capable of 51% SOL including Konohamaru who scales to Pain.

 

[MostPowerfull]

@IMade

Well ... It would be the same as bleach fans attacking Kukui for their constant fights over Bleach.

Just a high opinion. Like I said or if you are blind (yes, this is directed at you), not all I can say is an attack and my English is not that good, and a better interpretation sometimes puts me in check. I said it was my opinion and if I was misunderstood, I apologize! Now, get off my feet and increase that bruised ego.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Yeah, further investigating the profiles and scalings literally means almost everyone in the entire series scales to the statement which makes no sense. This move was an indication of the Raikage and Bee being fast characters, yet the scaling applies it to everyone, even characters that are supposed to be slower (this scaling connects to Choji, Asuma, kid Konohamaru and even Ino).

It's baseless, it's contradicted and nothing supports it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

All im gonna say on this is that everyone here needs to calm the hell down. Because I can already sense the hostility coming from this.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

All im gonna say on this is that everyone here needs to calm the hell dow. Because I can already sense the hostility coming from this.

Quite the exaggeration considering it's 1 person.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don't really care who and how many is being hostile. Im addressing '''everyone''' from this point forward to not be aggressive about this discussion and keep it civil.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Yeah, it's only MP, Kukui is trying to deflect MP's hostility towards everyone to distract the fact that MP doesn't have an argument. He's purely arguing with ad hominems.

Not once has any of the contradictions, hyperbole and scaling errors been addressed.

 

[MostPowerfull]

I'm sure Hidan and Kakuzu cast Kakashi BoS before their fight with Pain. Also, this version of Kakashi is listed as MHS+, like Sasuke Hebi. Soon, neither Hidan, nor Shikamaru, nor Ino, nor Chouji and co, will scale to that. These characters are even MHS + in their profiles.

So, I don't know where this came from, that Hidan and co are going to climb Rel. This is purely invention!

I always thought that Mitsuki had reacted to Suigetsu Casual and that's why his rating is like this. Still, Mitsuki has MHS / MHS + combat as well as several New Gen characters. Although this is specific, I disagree and can see it as an Outlier!

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Also those results

26 C for base Minato is based on the assumption that the Raikage was at 0.51 C

Making outlier feats is a heavy factor against the statement

 

[Damage3245]

> These characters are even MHS + in their profiles.

Did you miss that there is a section of my OP currently explaining how several of the profiles are outdated and inaccurate under the current scaling?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@MostPowerful

I advise you to read the profile justifications carefully. It's contradictary to what the profiles say.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah, it's only MP, Kukui is trying to deflect MP's hostility towards everyone to distract the fact that MP doesn't have an argument.

This isn't what im doing whatsoever, and i'd appreciate it if you didn't try poisoning the well of what im actually trying to do Imade. Which is making sure this discussion doesn't become a shitstorm over a controversial topic and can address every issue in a civil manner. Okay?

 

[MostPowerfull]

Except for the fact that my argument has not been refuted by anyone, like Tata's. Not even the consistency of the speed chain has been refuted.

But screaming that this is a outlier, like a desperate ... It's typical of Naruto's opponents! And look, I'm not even really a supporter of this verse.

Again...

And as I've said many times ... I'm not to blame for your weak ego. You can't keep a neutral or more serious tone without being in love with anyone, who usually gets hurt inside.

It was identical when I recommended that they ignore Xulrev, so that the thread wouldn't go down the derailment drain, because everyone was annoyed with him ... And I got a Warning for "urging them to ignore someone". Kek!