Issues with Speed [Naruto]

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; so there is no specific proof available, just speculation on your part?

 

[AstralKing7]

@PowerToScale; no, C is saying that A's reaction speed is on par with Minato's.

So....u basically jsut debunked your whole argument showing a scan where the sharingan that can perceive Kirin can't perceive Ay ƒÿƒƒÆǃÆǃÆÇokay thanks

U pretty much helping us out here. Ay>>>Kirin. Thanks man crazy that u had this already but just showed us

 

[TataHakai]

This is noteworthy due to explicitly natural lightning being stated as being undodgeable(Kirin),as well as a swing of a beam of light for EoS characters being unavoidable(Light Fang).

I disagree with this assesment, generally these undodgebale quotes are intentional hyperbole or more like red herrings in the narritive sense, they are intentionally set up like that for them to be disproven as to highligh how impressive the character's feat is of doing so is, for example if the story tells us The Wall is made of Diamond , it is unbreakable but later on a character gets a sword and breaks the sword, it doesnt invalidate the wall from being made of Diamon it just disproves the notion that it is unbreakable.

THANK YOU, Someone who actually knows how to understand context and common tropes

As for Damage, let me reply to your other comments for a second

"Don't pretend like I'm solely singling out Naruto for this. This thread just happens to be for the issues in Naruto. If another series has a problem, that doesn't justify any other series getting away with it."

Not at all, just funny how the special treatment some verses here get just because it's either less well known or has more fans, take that as you will but not a supporting argument to this thread, just throwing that out there

"Or, the databook is an inconsistency.

You're trying to bring up a bunch of other feats to make the Lariat seem like less of an outlier but it really isn't working."

See Shadow's comment above

"1) Edo Madara reacting to LS attacks

I've already stated my opinion on this one."

Yes and it doesn't matter because it was accepted before, so unless you want to make another thread on this....

2) SOSP Naruto reacting to an LS attack

Last time I checked it was accepted that Naruto only dodged the head swing.

So when it suits you, you care what's accepted or not but when it doesn't you want to ignore the feats that we already accept that supports those ratings for Naruto? What.

3) Guy Approaching the speed of light in 8th gate

Never stated. That's only an assumption.

it isn't an assumption at all, and a statement isn't necessary for visual feats, a character can travel around the world 7.5 times in a second and it'd still be light speed regardless of if we had a statement on it

And a character can warp space due to sheer speed and still be Relativistic regardless of if we had a statement on it or not

Also once again, we've had that accepted as SUPPORT for this rating for months before and after the revisions

4) Madara is able to shoot attacks at the speed of light

Correction; only a single specific attack of Madara's is accepted to be lightspeed.

Irrelevant; this is a casual attack from Madara, it's very unlikely that Madara can attack faster than he can react to/attack Normally but no one is ready for that conversation, also Naruto was able to casually dodge this but again this isn't the thread to discuss those feats

5) Even fodder characters have no problems moving things at the speed of light

Correction; only a single character has displayed the Ethereal Transmission jutsu which has nothing to do with her combat speed or movement speed.

Dude i literally said the exact same thing and you completely missed my point, it's like you're answering for the sake of answering and ignoring the actual context of my arguments

"So out of that list you've only really got one which could support most of the verse have Relativistic combat speed."

Even if you ignore what's "not accepted" as it seems to be so important for you

We have Lariat which is Near LS that is currently being used on profiles and accepted, we have Madara at Edo being able to react to an LS attack that's currently accepted, we also have Madara having a light speed attack that's accepted and used (yes it's just one attack but it's proof that SOL is a constant in Naruto), we have Guy bending space by moving at Relativistic speeds that's accepted AND used on profiles

That's 4 feats there alone that are Light speed or Relativistic that are accepted and used, stop acting like Lariat is all there is

And it's funny because Naruto has more LS/Rel statements and feats than most other verses here who are actually accepted at that level

 

[AstralKing7]

I'm still stuck on this scan where where sharingan can't keep up with Ay and to top it off it's a freaking official scam ƒÆǃÆǃñú

Where has this scan been the whole time.

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; when has the 3-Tomoe Sharingan reacted to Kirin? Also, you do realize that C's words are directly contradicted in the next chapter?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Honestly considering there were a ton of staff on here anyway, it might be best to make this a staff only thread with the exception of a few members who are knowledgeable who are both Pro and Anti.

It's super convoluted with a lot of walls of text atm/

 

[AstralKing7]

@AstralKing7; when has the 3-Tomoe Sharingan reacted to Kirin? Also, you do realize that C's words are directly contradicted in the next chapter?

Sasuke's sharingan> Itachi's sharingan that perceived Kirin.

MS and 3 tome sharingan aren't different in anything but special abilities ƒÿò did u not know that man? Databook and Black Zetsu even states that if u master a 3 tome sharingan enough u don't need a MS to fight another MS user

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

> Also once again, we've had that accepted as SUPPORT for this rating for months before and after the revisions

You know very well that Guy bending space isn't accepted as any sort of speed rating, just because you guys decided to write down as a justification literally means nothing.

 

[AstralKing7]

Um we can't put things on profiles without. U didn't know that??

Maybe u are remembering old threads or wasn't around

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; what makes you think Itachi could percieve Kirin at all (or that he needed to)? He could see Sasuke setting up the Kirin clearly and could see Sasuke moving his fingers to target the Kirin at Itachi.

It's not like he has to see the Kirin coming at all to know that he has to activate his defenses.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Actually i'm not even sure what Tata even means it's used as support when it's not even used as support on the very profile.

Edit - It's being used as justification on Madara's profile, which needs to be changed. Guy bending space being Rel has literally been rejected every single time.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3091218 With this being the latest.

 

[Mindovin]

@Sigurd

It's rejected because it considered outlier.

Also, you posted this yourself:

DT: Disagrees with reaction and no comment on Guy himself.

Gemmysaur: Outlier.

Cal: Disagrees since it's been asked several times over the years.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Sigurd
It's rejected because it considered outlier.

That's not why it was rejected...even when they were sub-rel and higher it was rejected.

 

[Mindovin]

My uni starts tomorrow morning and I must do some important things and sleep early and I'm sorry if I insulted or something as I don't have the time to organize/recheck this.

Current Issues with Speed Scaling

Change the ratings.

When we read a text we remove the hyperbole text with using our common sense or this isn't avoidable (avoided in the same chapter), no one can dodge this (dodged) and use what isn't. Lariat is near light speed isn't contradicted or challenged but actually supported by Edo Madara's feat.

I agree with @Shadow about hyping the tech or person part of his reply.

Slower characters fighting with faster characters or follow up their fights is a thing from the start.

One of the main issues for me is that the statement does not appear to have any solid support from the original manga itself. There is no mention or implication of the Raikage or Killer B having feats of speed at Relativistic+ levels.

>What sort of support do you want and what do you except? A4 or someone else saying Lariat moves is near light speed. or Lariat's speed is 0.55c or something and then how do they know the speed? asked. Databook exists for a reason, we only use our common sense and remove the hyperbole text.

I mean if that is your problem why do pixel scaling calcs in the first place as most of the feats that calced doesn't have any speed statement to begin with (site wide)?

Yes, the Raikage are commonly known to be "super fast" guys going by Naruto's observation but the Lariat technique being 51% Lightspeed would make it around two hundred times faster than Kakashi's feat of just managing to intercept Kakauzu's attack which is assumed to be average lightning speed.

> It's is common in the Shounen (or nearly every battle franchise I think) every arc characters becomes stronger and faster with more stronger and faster antagonists. Also, nearly every character if not all inflated in the War Arc. Kakuzu feat 4-5 Arc ago iirc. Later Kakashi fought against Deva Path which was fought against SM Jiraiya and Naruto without beign blitzed. One of the paths blitzed when it attacked Tsunade but Naruto fought against it without blitzing. Sakura and Kakashi able to track fight between god-tiers. Fodders able to track fights between top-tiers and god-tiers.

Bee's level is around Kisame but KCM Naruto blitzed Kisame in his first acquiring the power. Naruto and Bee fighting against others without Naruto blitzing. Character both don't using their max speed all the time and they are inflated.

It is a huge gap of speed in the verse. Which is what leads me to think that it is an outlier; especially since it has been used to retroactively scale so many characters in the verse to Relativistic or Relativistic+ levels.

> This is scaling problems not calc, feat or statement.

We have feat and we have statement. It's outlier so we hyperbole this and now this is outlier too so we discard this. Do you see.

At least part of that databook entry is exaggerated anyway, since it claims that the opponent can't even activate a technique before getting hit, yet Sasuke was able to put Killer B under Genjutsu while Killer B was performing the Lariat.

> What should we discard every statement and feat from manga too? Genjutsu requires to look at the opponent and send chakra(?), I mean it's a thought tech and Sasuke was using MS which gives him 3T gives precog, MS increase and he directly looks at the man for 10sec or something.

There is only one calc in the verse that comes close to the statement and it is Madara's reaction feat to the Ethereal Transmission jutsu which some people consider to be an ambiguous feat. Some people have pushed hard for this calc to be accepted in order to support the databook statement and make the databook statement appear like less of an outlier.

> Which people? It's accepted which you need to contest to it and make it not accepted otherwise IT IS A FEAT we are going to use. Why we should remove a feat?

Also, without using Lariat's speed Minato and Naruto reacting and dodging calc at Rel or Rel+ iirc. I search it for a bit I post if I found the calcs.

I think we should either dismiss the statement and examine what the speed scaling would be like with the Madara reaction feat alone, or get rid of both of them and rate the verse appropriately using the other calcs available.

> Like I said before why don't we throw away every statement in the manga too. I mean with all of this hyperboles, flowery language we should start to consider throwing away every statement and consider every feat as an outlier and make every ninja 10-A/9-C or something.

Just because the statement exists in the databook does not mean we have to be forced to use it to rate the profiles, we take the databooks on case-by-case basis anyway.

> Because the statement exists in the manga does not mean we have to be forced to use it to rate the profiles.

Yes, using our common sense we remove contradicted, hyperbole and flowery language text and use what isn't. Databook give information (even half assed) if you don't want to use it make a thread for it to banned.

 

[AstralKing7]

@AstralKing7; what makes you think Itachi could percieve Kirin at all (or that he needed to)? He could see Sasuke setting up the Kirin clearly and could see Sasuke moving his fingers to target the Kirin at Itachi.

It's not like he has to see the Kirin coming at all to know that he has to activate his defenses.

Oh you wylin. Explain how he was able to set up Susanno right when Kirin landed. This wiki already agreed that Itachi could perceive Kirin which is how he was able to bring Susanno out and activate it.

Also your wording doesn't make sense at all. Susanno wasn't brought out when Sasuke dropped Kirin. The manga even shows that. Read it again

Itachi was still looking up. And a flash of light appeared on his face and eyes signifying that Kirin was coming down.

Also are u suggesting sum dodging when he didn't dodge lol?? His activation speed is tied to his perception speed first of all.


He has to see Kirin to know when to bring out Susanno. He has to see Kirin to know if he will need the Yata mirror because it will take sum time to form Susanno which isn't a fast process but at least 10 seconds lmao when he has to form a huge shield and put it over his head


Also first of all u can't even aim dodge something wii that radius. The whole mountain got destroyed. So how will Itachi even know when to bring Kirin out. He doesn't even know if Sasuke was going to plan on dropping Kirin somewhere further from his own position.

Next Sasuke was literally too high up for Itachi to see his fingers when Sasuke didn't use his fingers but merely dropped Kirin down with his hands. I just read it also.

We can see in the next chapter how long it takes for Susanno to form

Damage....did u not know any of this?? It's impossible for Itachi to have timed it at all because Susanno forms to slow shown in the very next chapter. Idek why u would assume aim dodging when he had to activate an ability before it hit him which is tied to ocular abilities

 

[Damage3245]

> He has to see Kirin to know if he will need the Yata mirror because it will take sum time to form Susanno which isn't a fast process but at least 10 seconds lmao when he has to form a huge shield and put it over his head

Hold up, what are you trying to say here? That Itachi needs 10 seconds to activate his Susano'o?

> It's impossible for Itachi to have timed it at all because Susanno forms to slow shown in the very next chapter.

You seem to be contradicting yourself; if it takes too long for Susano'o to emerge, then how are you claiming that he had enough time between Kirin coming down and Kirin landing in order to react to it and activate it?


Also, you seem to have deviated pretty far away from my original argument. Perhaps we should get back on topic?

 

[AstralKing7]

Deviated? Dude u started talking about Kirin first all the way above and bringing up how luring makes this inconsistent for current scaling

Please don't try to push this off on someone else

The sharingan is what helps he see the speed of Kirin. Susanno could come out faster while Itachi speeds up his perception ability

The next chapter shows how fast his Susanno took form. Around 5 seconds at most and with sharingan it can be faster till the point where he has enough time to see Kirin come down and bring it out at the same time. Not before at all cause the manga literally showed when Kirin fell which was before his Susanno came out

 

[Naeblis495]

?????

astral , i really don't understand your point here .

 

[AstralKing7]

Itachi can perceive Kirin. The site accepted that for the longest and now Damage believes jsut because he doesn't he is right. That's the point.

Damage posted a scan by mistake that debunked his arguments where Ay can't be perceived by the sharingan. Same sharingan that is stronger than Itachis sharingan that can perceive Kirin

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; except the scan doesn't in any way invalidate my argument.

Also, you're ignoring that C is disproven when Sasuke outright does percieve the Raikage's movements with his Sharinga.

The only time the Raikage appears to go faster than what Sasuke can see is when he is using his Teleportation Jutsu after amping himself up even further.

And even then, that still doesn't disprove my argument Astral because you're coming up with this speculation regarding Black Zetsu as if speculation discredits it at all.

 

[Naeblis495]

Itachi can perceive Kirin. The site accepted that for the longest and now Damage believes jsut because he doesn't he is right. That's the point.
Damage posted a scan by mistake that debunked his arguments where Ay can't be perceived by the sharingan. Same sharingan that is stronger than Itachis sharingan that can perceive Kirin

i was talking about the susano taking 5 second to form according to you, that doesn't make a lick of sense .

if the susano take that long to form , then itachi would have been destroyed by kirin , whatever his reaction speed may be.

That or kirin took 5.1 seconds to land after the flash of light we see illuminate itachi's face wich i heavely doubt .

maybe i completely missunderstood your point tho, if so , excuse me .

 

[AstralKing7]

@Damage first this isn't the first time Sasuke eyes have gotten better mid fight. Second it doesn't invalidate your argument because it makes things more consistent when u wanna say that no one is faster than Kirin so near light speed statement is an outlier

Also again? Do u really not know aanythhing about Black Zetsu?? He has recorded all of the important ninja battles. He even said he has been recording everything. Hell what's worse he even had a clone Kisame prepared for the fight will killer bee.

White Zetsu even knew who the raikage was.

Ay vs Minato battles are famous. Zetsu who records everything import in the ninja world doesn't know about Ay? Are u seriously suggesting that?

You have no proof of that besides u just saying no u can't believe

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; the burden of proof is on you to prove that Black Zetsu has witnessed the Raikage's fights before and knows exactly how fast he is.

Saying "Well, he could have done it" is not proof.

And for the last time, my argument has not been "This statement proves that no one in the manga is objectively faster than Kirin."

 

[Callsign_Castle]

What is being argued anymore

 

[AstralKing7]

It's supported that he did do it.


Yes your argument does involve Kirin. I just looked at where u said it effects Lariet

White Zetsu literally knows who the raikage is

But u wanna know the final piece of evidence which proves that u didn't know what u were talking about lol? ƒÆǃñªÔÇìÔÖé´©Å

White Zetsu even gave a statement that said "He really is fast"

Black Zetsu knows literally how fast Raikage were the whole time and u can continue to ignore that if you want but your opinions won't be forced on anyone else

 

[Xulrev]

Honestly these threads become so goddamn wearying due to the amount of personal aspersions cast. "Wow did you not read Naruto" "Omg are you REALLY suggesting THIS happened" "Wow I cannot BELIEVE you're ACTUALLY doing this"

We realistically should make a discussion rule that derailing Naruto threads with personal assaults of this manner is grounds for being ejected from the thread. Every single thread it happens and every single thread it's the same 4 or 5 people using the same tactics to derail and/or attempt to poison the well.

 

[Damage3245]

@Xulrev; the amount of Ad Hominem attacks thrown around here are out of control. Perhaps making this a Staff Only discussion would be for the best like Shadow has suggested.

@AstralKing7; what's hilarious is that all White Zetsu says is "Th-this guy's super fast!" indicating he was taken by surprise and has not actually seen the Raikage fight before.

 

[Xulrev]

Staff Only would help but every single Naruto thread is like this and it's the same people, it's definitely an issue within the core fanbase that participates in these threads and they constantly deride anyone who disagrees, specifically you any time you being evidence, Damage

 

[BlackeJan]

Because the same people who are against Naruto sometimes make up the most ridiculous things and then we deal with people who purposely lowball everything in their eyesight. People ask for staff cause WE ALL KNOW it ain't going anywhere

 

[Xulrev]

Because the same people who are against Naruto sometimes make up the most ridiculous things and then we deal with people who purposely lowball everything in their eyesight

I have no clue if intentional or not, but thank you for furthering my very point

 

[Lightbuster30]

@AstralKing7; what's hilarious is that all White Zetsu says is "Th-this guy's super fast!" indicating he was taken by surprise and has not actually seen the Raikage fight before.

Do we apply what white zetsu doesn't know to black zetsu? Just checking.

 

[Damage3245]

@Lightbuster30; this is the version of White Zetsu that has been bonded to Black Zetsu ever since Madara's death. We've never seen them be apart from each other until Five Kage Summit Arc IIRC.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

This thread turned from discussing speed into throwing shit at each other.

@Damage

Just close it and make it Staff Only if you think so.

@Xulrev

You wrote so much crap that I won't even try to reply on all of that.The only thing your replies will do is make ppl rage against you,and I think you know that.

 

[TataHakai]

Staff Only would help but every single Naruto thread is like this and it's the same people, it's definitely an issue within the core fanbase that participates in these threads and they constantly deride anyone who disagrees

When a person comes in ignoring every single bit of context and cherry picking arguments and scans to lowball something as much as possible that is what tends to happen, people get annoyed

Considering some of these people would argue for Mountain level and MHS+ naruto, no naming names though

 

[AstralKing7]

Staff Only would help but every single Naruto thread is like this and it's the same people, it's definitely an issue within the core fanbase that participates in these threads and they constantly deride anyone who disagrees, specifically you any time you being evidence, Damage

Nice appeal. Crazy how u only pop up outa the wood works on Naruto threads when Damage has a problem with the speed ratings

 

[Antvasima]

@All staff members here

Should this thread be closed and restarted in a staff only format?

 

[Damage3245]

@Antvasima; I won't be able to create the thread for it until later tomorrow.

But since we do seem to be going forward with it in a new thread, it would probably be best if this topic was closed for now.

 

[Antvasima]

@Damage

Okay.