Issues with Speed [Naruto]

[Dzhindzholia]

At least part of that databook entry is exaggerated anyway, since it claims that the opponent can't even activate a technique before getting hit, yet Sasuke was able to put Killer B under Genjutsu while Killer B was performing the Lariat.

That's a silly reason honestly,its the description of the technique,it needs to hype it,you don't expect Kishimoto to write "No one can dodge Lariat,well,except for Sasuke,Itachi etc".First this kind of thinking was used against Light Fang and now here.Thats just silly.It shows the lack of real reasons.

Yes, the Raikage are commonly known to be "super fast" guys going by Naruto's observation but the Lariat technique being 51% Lightspeed would make it around two hundred times faster than Kakashi's feat of just managing to intercept Kakauzu's attack which is assumed to be average lightning speed.

It is a huge gap of speed in the verse. Which is what leads me to think that it is an outlier; especially since it has been used to retroactively scale so many characters in the verse to Relativistic or Relativistic+ levels.

These aren't arguments at all......

In conclusion,you just think its an outlier.Thats a bad reason.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

Its that,everyone was okay when Lariat was just Rel+ but when it started to yield good results everyone suddenly got insane about it.I don't think its coincidence.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

finally. damn.
if i may just add, the statement specifies nothing but the jutsu itself. that is as vague as they come. base killer bee can perform the lariat and so can ay at his full power, but the difference in speed is still somewhat big. if we were to consider base bee's lariat as 50% light speed, base ay would be> 50% light speed, lightning cloak ay would be>> 50% light speed, and his fastest attack >>> 50% light speed. not to then consider the fact that the weakest god tier (uncontrolled juubito) could 100% blitz someone faster than ay's punch like it was nothing ie >>>> 50% light speed. he then gets a power up (full control) >>>>> 50% light speed, then gets surpassed by madara >>>>>> 50% light speed, who then gains some random unknown power ups who couldve made him even faster. naruto comes in using spsm and almost completely outspeeds him very solidly and possibly casually >>>>>>> 50% light speed, and then powers up by gaining his cloak >>>>>>>> 50% light speed. so yeah, this needs to go

^

 

[JohnHendrix212]

A statement that explains or describes a certain move is usually accepted in this site. Especially if it came from a genuine canon source.

If literally any other verse had someone dodge a stated lightspeed attack, it'd get accepted without further argument. But not Naruto apparently. This confuses me.

 

[Damage3245]

Its that,everyone was okay when Lariat was just Rel+ but when it started to yield good results everyone suddenly got insane about it.I don't think its coincidence.

I've never been okay with it. Just putting that out there. I just thought I'd need to address it since I've also been noticing a lot of issues in the current profiles.

@JohnHendrix212; I'm not sure why you're trying to pull the victim card for Naruto here as if the verse is being mistreated. We have a page on Outliers for a reason.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

its a huge outlier. the god tiers are much, much, much faster than base ay, whom this is from unfortunetly. any of the god tiers would be FTL+ if we went by this tbh. which is not the case, otherwise, light fang and other light speed feats wouldnt be such a big deal. this contradicts some context and intent

 

[Js250476]

Ngl part of me did always find it a bit weird the Lariat was described as near lightspeed when Raikage's whole thing is being lighting fast (I heard the kanji for lighting and light are similar but don't quote me on that.)

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Yeah if another series tried to upgrade to lightspeed (fifty precent lightspeed but you get the point) based solely off a databook statement trust me there would be issues. In the end Im not competent enough in the naruto lore/fandom to take a stance either way(Just not a series that Ive ever been able to get into overall). Just saying we would not instantly accept a statement in a databook as 100% accurate without further feats/information.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I completely agree with Damage. The databook statements for Naruto were to be taken as a case by case basis that was completely disregarded. It's obviously a hyperbolic statement that lariat is near light speed as it makes no sense with the rest of the verse as there were only MHS+ calcs for the verse at that point. It's a massive outlier if taken seriously.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

@Damage3245; I'm not pulling the victim card. I'm just genuinely confused. We have verses that were consistently Supersonic and then suddenly jumps to being FTL and get accepted without further probing or analysis.

And then we have this...

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I don't see how a direct statement from a canon databook should be rejected. It's as clear as day that the context was to be taken literally that Lariat moves at "near lightspeed".

Should we then reject Murata's statement of Guryuganshoop's speed? Since it's just nothing but a statement with nothing to back it up. And it's been established that Murata isn't the WoG.

Anyway, I disagree with the OP. Sorry for bringing up other verses. Just making a point.

We should. Hell, I thought we already did. There was a while accepted thread on it and everything.

 

[Damage3245]

@JohnHendrix212; other verses having lax standards is a whole other problems. If they actually do have issues, then those issues need to be addressed.

But that's not what this thread is about.

 

[AstralKing7]

Here we go with these hyperboles again lmao after we already been over this whole argument


Damage was on the last thread where it was brought up and as a staff member he should do well to remember the past arguments which are literally being thrown around again

 

[AstralKing7]

its a huge outlier. the god tiers are much, much, much faster than base ay, whom this is from unfortunetly. any of the god tiers would be FTL+ if we went by this tbh. which is not the case, otherwise, light fang and other light speed feats wouldnt be such a big deal. this contradicts some context and intent

Huh? How does this contradict Light fang???

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I completely agree with Damage. The databook statements for Naruto were to be taken as a case by case basis that was completely disregarded. It's obviously a hyperbolic statement that lariat is near light speed as it makes no sense with the rest of the verse as there were only MHS+ calcs for the verse at that point. It's a massive outlier if taken seriously.

^

This. You guys severely upgraded a verse using a one-off statement in the guidebook that's unsupported in the canon proper.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

According to the databook it's impossible to dodge and defend against.

Wouldn't that be contradictary if Madara ends up FTL but decided to shoot out worthless lightning techniques and a standard LS attack against a Naruto who's superior to 25x SOL Minato or even a 9x SOL Ay?

 

[AstralKing7]

Lol that's a mistranslation. It's impossible to block which is the hyperbole.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

This is a silly reason.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

its a huge outlier. the god tiers are much, much, much faster than base ay, whom this is from unfortunetly. any of the god tiers would be FTL+ if we went by this tbh. which is not the case, otherwise, light fang and other light speed feats wouldnt be such a big deal. this contradicts some context and intent

Huh? How does this contradict Light fang???

is was big deal and said to be impossible to dodge by normal means (anyone who doesnt have 3 different types of sensing and humoungous chakra amps), meaning its too fast for someone like the raikage, even though that wouldnt be the case if he really was close to light speed

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Lol that's a mistranslation. It's impossible to block which is the hyperbole.

It's not a mistranslation lol.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

It doesn't need to be a mistranslation.

"Impossible to dodge" shouldn't be taken seariously,what do you expect?For Sasuke not to dodge the Lariat and die?Or for Naruto not to dodge light fang and die?Thats the description to hype the jutsu.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

According to the databook it's impossible to dodge and defend against.
Wouldn't that be contradictary if Madara ends up FTL but decided to shoot out worthless lightning techniques and a standard LS attack against a Naruto who's superior to 25x SOL Minato or even a 9x SOL Ay?

pretty much this. agree 100%

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It doesn't need to be a mistranslation.

"Impossible to dodge" shouldn't be taken seariously,what do you expect?For Sasuke not to dodge the Lariat and die?Or for Naruto not to dodge light fang and die?Thats the description to hype the jutsu.

Yet "Nearly the speed of light" is meant to be taken at face value?

 

[JohnHendrix212]

@Sigurd; Madara was most certainly discovering his new arsenal, and didn't care for their effectiveness. Just like the Inton Raiha, which was used just to test the duo and engage the fight, and not to take them out. He wouldn't have known those attacks were slow in comparison to them since it was his first time using the techniques.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@John

Or he thought they'd actually be effective since he's literally a master tactican.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

@Cal

People here tried to use that silly reason argumentLight Fang too.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Yet "Nearly the speed of light" is meant to be taken at face value?

"Impossible to dodge" sounds more of a hyperbole than the outright description that's in the Lariat statement.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

How about both are Hyperboles.

 

[AstralKing7]

@John

Or he thought they'd actually be effective since he's literally a master tactican.

Tmw the people u fighting are as well ƒÿɃÿæ

 

[AstralKing7]

How about both are Hyperboles.

How about reading the same thread that was made for the upgrades.

Staff shouldn't even agree on any of these proposals from disagreeing with them before

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; what do you mean by "Staff shouldn't even agree on any of these proposals from disagreeing with them before"?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What I'm getting from the dissenters is "it was accepted before so don't complain"

Aight then. Bet. 4-A Buu Saga, 6-B Steven Universe, 7-B Digimon, and Tier 0 Demonbane and Golovachoverse.

 

[AstralKing7]

Because it's basically a double standard using arguments from the original thread that stafff already disagreed against. That's what I mean

Even Kep and other staff members agreed on it.

It seems more like staff is split with one side fairly rating Naruto

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

ah, no. double standards are the same thing happening twice, but people's opinions and handling of it are different. this aint it chief

 

[KLOL506]

 

[MostPowerfull]

I'll be very honest here ... And completely disagree with 50%, while I have my doubts with the other 50%.

To make one thing clear ... I disagree with any calculation that puts Naruto below his full power in FTL.
This I have 100% conviction to be extremely wrong. However, I will observe what happens.

About Scalings
All scaling problems can be solved by simply updating. That is, putting Sasuke Hebi as Relativistic for keeping up with Itachi and etc.

About Naruto Base ...
I am almost 100% sure that Naruto BoS scales on the achievements of various New Generation Genins. And because he can keep up with Deidara BoS.


Problems with declaratio
I completely disagree.
The mention is literally a statement from Databook, if the declaration passed a CRT and was accepted, then it passed the "case by case" inspection, which disassembles many nonsense statements here.. So this part of your text is already starting wrong, as there is mention of Raikage being fast at this level.
We have Genins that are already at MHS + levels and even characters like Shino and Konohamaru, who aren't exactly exceptional in Taijutsu like Killer B or Ay, having feats almost Sub-Relativistic. Even Kakashi in the Classic was already capable of performing feats like "cut lightning in the middle of his path", which already shows that we have a good speed since the beginning of the work.
So yes ... One implication of Raikage being extremely above Genins and Jounins as Shino in speed and proved to be above Sasuke Taka, who is already considered fast.
I even agree that 51% of SoL is a bit much and would fully agree on a little less than that, such as 10% of SoL (so I agree with DDM in this part). It would be consistent with several other feats, such as Kirin. But is he Outlier? It's at least laughable.

About the gap in speed ... Completely meaningless. Several verses go from Hypersonic to Relativistic+ or even FTL/MFTL, with one or two feats. Bleach himself went from Hipersonic to Relativistic with just one feat (and by the way, I'm still looking at where the MHS+ feat that many characters scale is), getting hundreds or thousands of times faster. No work of fiction needs to follow a "consistency ladder" from MHS+ to Sub-Rel and etc, etc, etc.
If a lot of Mid/High Tiers characters are Relativistic it's bad ... Scaling them up to a Genin level, when we have statements that set you apart from them, is even worse.

So no ... There is nothing exaggerated in the statement. This statement literally supports the speed difference between High tiers and above for the other tiers on the back.
And I'm sure Madara's feat wasn't forced ... The feat was explained, argued and you were debunked by Jvando and others.

Conclusion
Yes, I agree that no FTL feat should be accepted.
Yes, I agree that 51% of SoL is quite high (but if you decide to keep it, I'm fine!)
No, there is no gap or lack of explanation, or even lack of speed chain. It's completely consistent with new feats presented by New Generation characters.
Not an outlier for the reasons stated above. Not even the speed chain.

 

[Damage3245]

> The mention is literally a statement from Databook. So this part of your text is already starting wrong, as there is mention of Raikage being fast at this level.

I meant to say there is no mention / implication of the Raikage or Killer B being this fast in the manga. Obviously the databook statement exists which is what this thread is about.

> We have Genins that are already at MHS + levels and even characters like Shino and Konohamaru, who aren't exactly exceptional in Taijutsu like Killer B or Ay, having done almost Sub-Relativistic.

Several of these feats are questionable for different reasons, but this isn't the thread to address those.

> Even Kakashi in the Classic was already capable of perfuming feats like "cut lightning in the middle of his path", which already shows that we have a good speed since the beginning of the work.

I've already addressed this on this thread.

 

[MostPowerfull]

@Damage

Which is irrelevant in the case. It has a mention in the Databook and has a context behind it in Manga. Unless something is extremely inconsistent with it, then nothing is wrong.

Once they have been used and have been accepted about the circumstances of the debunks you received about Raiton's veracity.. And some that I debunked (Kirin Calc) and just fell into oblivion, like Bleach's FTL feats. So I can even say that I understand how Usklaverei feels.. For now, they are usable!

OK! Still a good addition.

I agree with some things you said! But half of your text is unnecessary and literally ignoring context within the verse.

EDIT - Another addition ... If Lariat is downgraded at 10% of SoL, Kisame's feat would be Sub-Rel (or a little more than that). It would be very consistent with the feats presented on the back, especially Kirin.

 

[USklaverei]

.

 

[Damage3245]

@MostPowerfull; in what way would it be consistent with Kirin?

Sasuke considered natural lightning to be impossible to dodge when he used it against Itachi (which Black Zetsu concurred with), and Kirin is only MHS+ currently.

So many characters (including Sasuke himself) being Relavistic / Sub-Relativistic is in direct contradiction to that.