Issues with F-Zero

[Arigarmy]

A lot of them. I'm surprised nobody even pointed these things out.

So a big issue I have with the verse is that while I love it and the characters to death, a lot of the explanations for their tiering is either filled with big words to fill in for what's supposed to be there, or have a bunch of inconsistencies.

The main issue I have is with Black Shadow's feat and Captain Falco's supposed speed feats. I know the anime is used for these pages and their feats, which makes sense because that's really the only source of any feat in the series, but there's an issue:

• Black Shadow is said to be Low 6-B for overpowering a reactor that destroyed a Space Station. Sure, okay, but where's the evidence that doing this results in Low 6-B AP? No calc? Not even footage or a statement? That's a little fishy.
• Not only that, but Falcon gets a random downgrade to 7-A, likely Low 6-B. Where did the 7-A come from? It's like it popped into mid-air.
• Then Blood Falcon walks in and only gets the 7-A end of the stick and only that even under the statement of him being equal to Falcon.
• Don't get me started on why this guy can just exist either.
• Falcon is listed as having Class 1+ Lifting Strength, again, without citation.
• Falcon has speed feats that classify Supersonic+ with Hypersonic+ to High Hypersonic reactions and combat speed. However, these supposed feats again have no links or statements from those that are available. The other supposed feat could "no longer be found". I recall the feat existing, something about a sniper bullet if my memory serves right, but is it really unable to be found, even with something like the Waybackmachine? I don't believe "Oh it existed." is a valid excuse to pass for this Speed. Also, the linked video is a theory using real-life force and friction, despite his own page just listing it at Fire Manipulation. It's either one or the other.
• Blood Falcon is listed as age 37, despite Falcon's being at Unknown (likely near 30s). Where did the 37 come from? (Post Edit: Appears to be Falcon's age stated in GX)
• Falcon's supposed name is listed as Douglas Jay Falcon even though in parentheses it's stated to be unofficial. If it's debunked, then the only name remaining, which goes with the inclusion of the F-Zero anime, would be Bart Lemming. It cannot be the new Falcon after Bart, Ryu Suzaku, for obvious reasons.

And finally, a quote from F-Zero GX that could be added to Falcon's page from a weapon. I think this was already known (and even listed on JBW) among people, but not really stated. Deathborn makes this statement about the combined Champions' belt, which Falcon receives and keeps at the end of the game.

Falcon, shall I tell you something before you die? Dark and light; the two great forces which make up our universe. These two universal forces are condensed in each of our belts. Didn't you know? At the moment when the two forces become one, it is possible to seize that power. Then, I can turn this whole galaxy into a pile of ashes in an instant!
	~ Deathbor​

So from this quote, wouldn't it be possible to add this "weapon" to Falcon's profile? He literally beats the belt itself in a race and masters it, so I think it could count.

Finally, a small nitpick about Falcon but not necessarily argumented against his page. If "non-canon" moves are listed on his profile and have to be listed as non-canon, why should they be on his page in the first place? The only canon move Falcon has in the F-Zero series is the Falcon Punch, which isn't even fire-based in the anime.

 

[Promestein]

"Falcon's supposed name is listed as Douglas Jay Falcon even though in parentheses it's stated to be unofficial. If it's debunked, then the only name remaining, which goes with the inclusion of the F-Zero anime, would be Bart Lemming. It cannot be the new Falcon after Bart, Ryu Suzaku, for obvious reasons."

Or Andy Summers

Anyways yeah the pages suck

 

[Arigarmy]

I also get a bit confused when F-Zero is cited as "One of Nintendo's most powerful verses" on the verse page, but only tops out at Small Country and High Hypersonic. If anything, it's one of the mid-tiers of how strong Nintendo is.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Ari

Pretty sure it has the creators of the universe as one of the "bosses".

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

>Nintendo's most powerful verses

>Mario, Kirby, Link, Pikachu, Ness, Fox, Samus, Master Hand, Donkey Kong, Wario, Yoshi (counting DKC, WL, and YI as their own franchises) **** their heads back and laugh.

 

[Arigarmy]

They say "We created this world", but I don't want to assume they automatically mean the universe itself. I even upped the verse page by adding country, because the original verse page only goes up to Mountain. It's that bad.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Ari

Hence why I said "pretty sure".

 

[Arigarmy]

Hm, would that do anything else to the belt if they are indeed the creators of the universe?

 

[Metal875]

I definitely see the problems with the base Captain Falcon key. I could never find the feat myself, either. But I believe it was in the anime somewhere.

And about the Champion's Belt... I'd also like to point out that it has dark and light condensed into each belt, as stated by Deathborn. And those forces "make up our universe." They also imply to have created many things, including Deathborn himself, and call him their "greatest creation." So if the Champion's Belt gets mention, perhaps a Low 2-C tier would be possible? I dunno. But the 3-C seems solid to me.

About Falcon's speed though... he literally blitzed a bunch of robots that can track F-Zero machines, which, in the games, were stated to be capable of going at the speed of sound.

And I also wanna throw some hax he has out there.

Illusion Creation by turning the Red Bull into the Blue Falcon.

The Blue Falcon has a gravity ray, so... Gravity Manipulation.

He was thrown into the Dark Space, a separate dimension. And later, he reappears as Berserker, showing that he traveled dimensions.

It should also be noted that he reacted and saved Rick Wheeler from a laser here. I'm unsure if that's FTL or not, but there it is.

 

[Arigarmy]

Thanks MM, I'm currently trying to binge through the anime myself to find anything. I'm currently on the third episode, so I'll get new stuff if I find anything interesting. I do remember the feat barely, it was something about Falcon reacting to a sniper shot from behind or something.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

If Falcon can create fire due to friction, he can be Hypersonic. But if not, @Metal already pointed a supersonic feat.

 

[Arigarmy]

Yes, but his ability is already listed under Fire Manipulation. It cannot simply say it's from the friction when it's really Fire Manipulation. It's either friction or Fire Manipulation.

 

[Metal875]

No problem, Ari.

And while this is outta the blue, the Blue Falcon can turn into a razor and spin with more speed. Later on, Black Shadow does the same attack too, and his cuts through buildings.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's friction. I remember reading a Nintendo Power magazine about it a long while back.

Also, you can have your cake and eat it too. I'm talking about the fire manipulation. Just like people can have certain manipulation abilities through gadgets, they can have certain manipulation abilities through stuff like this.

 

[Metal875]

That's a bit inconsistent, isn't it? Falcon's down taunt in Smash has him encase himself in fire. That can't be friction.

So... is it both?

 

[Arigarmy]

It's friction. I remember reading a Nintendo Power magazine about it a long while back.

I hope you have that issue with you, mate.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I...haven't seen that issue in a literal decade.

 

[Metal875]

I think it was Volume 170 about F-Zero GX... but I can't seem to find any online versions of it, unfortunately.

 

[Arigarmy]

Well without it, we can only go based off Cal's memory, and no offense, that may not be 100% legitimate enough to push forward the rating.

Also, are we going to do anything about that supposed 6-B Black Shadow thing?

 

[Dark649]

I have watched all the F-Zero continuities, in case you didn't know the profile are composite. The speeds comes from him blitzing robots, dodging laser beams and etc. The Low 6-B feat come from the final battle where Black Shadow Dark Matter Reactor exploded and caused this much energy.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I think it was Volume 170 about F-Zero GX... but I can't seem to find any online versions of it, unfortunately.

rip

My Nintendo Power source only goes up to Volume 169.

At least Hypersonic should be okay.

 

[Arigarmy]

We're going to have a Sonic debacle if we try doing that. What if we tried doing a key for different canons? There's the games, the anime, and then Smash Bros. The reason I include Smash Bros. is that he does have feats in the SSE (I think, anyway), and it's included in his moveset as being "non-canon", when there are two different continuities being used on one Falcon.

And again, footage, calcs, and statements to justify the Low 6-B, please.

 

[Dark649]

Captain Falcon scales to Black Shadow, who has very interesting feats in the anime and tanked withouth a scratch his falcon puch.

 

[Metal875]

Wait, so the Low 6-B came from the Dark Matter reactor? Apparently, his Dark Matter Reactor would halt the expansion of the universe, then create a new Big Bang to create a new universe ruled by evil. So that should be a bit higher than Low 6-B, shouldn't it?

Oh, and Black Shadow manipulates fog with a mere gesture, too. Forgot about that.

 

[Dark649]

That should be a bit higher than Low 6-B, shouldn't it?

I think it's the explosion, which Falcon and Blood were not able to survive, in the anime at one point Black Shadow was attacked by a pillar of fire and other things, but he reappeared in the episode later without any damage.

 

[Arigarmy]

Captain Falcon scales to Black Shadow, who has very interesting feats in the anime and tanked withouth a scratch his falcon puch.

No, not the scaling, the justifications for Low 6-B. I mean any statements or calcs that give it the means to be labeled as Low 6-B. I won't believe it's Low 6-B until I see evidence given that it is indeed Low 6-B. Anything works as long as it points toward it or any other AP level.

MM gets what I'm saying.

On an unrelated note, look at this cool Samurai Goroh feat.

 

[Metal875]

Yeah, I get it. Ari wants to see why it's Low 6-B. Was there a calculation?

 

[Dark649]

I remember that Black Shadow petrifed Haruka before the final episode.

 

[Arigarmy]

I think it's the explosion.

Dude, this does not look like a Country level explosion.

 

[Metal875]

That looks more along the lines as bare minimum 4-B, personally.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

MSS.

 

[Arigarmy]

Yeah, looks about that way to me when you compare it to the background and such. Doesn't seem to match MSS but SS seems to fit it, I think.

 

[Metal875]

MSS.

That's what I was initially thinking, but it doesn't look like anything lower than Solar System. Probably into Multi-Solar System.

 

[Dark649]

Originally The Perpetual made the edit, the ODB explanations , which are crappy and now i'm searching for the calc.

 

[Arigarmy]

So if Black Shadow and Falcon were stated to be equal to each other, would that apply to Black Shadow "overpowering the reactor"? I'm asking that because if we apply the old logic, that would make Black Shadow and Falcon MSS.

Also Goroh being fast again.

 

[Dark649]

I also forgot to tell that Blood Falcon has a liquid form and Black Shadow can BFR people in the past and etc.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

William Proto explained to me why the 4-A doesn't scale to Black Shadow. I wish it did, tho.

 

[Dark649]

Of course it doesn't scale, they were not able to survive it because they were not empowered by the might reactors, the truth is that Captain Falcon and Black Shadow are the avatar of the light side and dark side of the universe.

 

[Arigarmy]

Yeah but that doesn't solve their AP problem.

 

[Metal875]

@Dark: So liquid intangibility? That's definitely good hax.

@Matthew: Either way, I believe Black Shadow should get a key like "W/ the Dark Matter Reactor" and be placed at either 3-A or Low 2-C for remaking the Big Bang.

And what about the Champion's Belt? It has a solid 3-C statement, as well as a possible 3-A/Low 2-C one.

@Ari: True. If they don't scale, then they shouldn't keep their Low 6-B either.