Issues with Canon Composites and levels of Canon

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Just because something takes priority =/= it cannot be contradicted by other sources.

Digimon Reference books are primary canon, however feats mentioned in the reference books can be contradicted by other media and overwritten. We still treat the less priority canons as something that can overwrite the primary canon.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

We use the feats because they don't contract the games, otherwise we wouldn't

100% this. If a feat from another canon doesnt contradict anything, you have no reason as to why we cant accept them.

If they do contradict something, then it comes down to the status of the canons that are being compared. The primary canon takes priority, thus the supporting canon's feat is discarded. This can be used to either upgrade a feat or reject one. And i'll give a small example:

Character A comes from a verse where there are games first, manga second and anime third. So its games>manga>anime. Character A in the manga has a feat where they can destroy a planet. Yet, in the games which are the primary canon, they are treated as fodder and struggle with something below 5-B. This means the feat from the manga is disregarded as the primary canon explicitly dictates them not being 5-B.

Now Character B comes along in the same verse. Character B has the ability to manipulate time. In the games, he's known to be a master manipulator of time from lore. In the manga, Character B is shown to be able to accelerate or slow down time. This feat would be acceptable since it fits perfectly with the primary canon. He's known to be a master time manipulator in the primary canon and in this secondary canon, it shows off his time hax more to show what he can do. It fits in with his status, how he's being treated, thus its an acceptable feat.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Just pointing out SMT doesn't really use a composite so much as most games sharing a canon. Otherwise feats from Persona would be used much more readily.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

I see where Dragon is coming from, all forms of canon should be consistent with each other. I.E, If in the games something happens differently while in the anime something is portrayed as being much different than the orginal source. It's either that we shouldn't accept the anime as canon or vice versa. This is a lot like cherry picking whatever is convenient but also blatantly ignoring whatever is inconvenient.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Just pointing out SMT doesn't really use a composite so much as most games sharing a canon. Otherwise feats from Persona would be used much more readily.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

I agree with Kukui and Overlord.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Just because something takes priority =/= it cannot be contradicted by other sources.
Digimon Reference books are primary canon, however feats mentioned in the reference books can be contradicted by other media and overwritten. We still treat the less priority canons as something that can overwrite the primary canon.

It does if those other sources have less authority.

IDK how digimon is being treated here other than what you just said, but if that is the case, then its Digimon that is being treated incorrectly and you shouldnt take things that have less authority over the digimon canon as legitimate.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

About time we adressed this issue. Throwing in my support for the OP.

Composites in general post numerous issues on their own, the fact that we're applying the logic for entire verses is a bit out there.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Actually Kukui, could you please name another Composite verse that treats its canon the same way as Pokemon. You say they exist, but have never showed them.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I see where Dragon is coming from, all forms of canon should be consistent with each other. I.E, If in the games something happens differently while in the anime something is portrayed as being much different than the orginal source. It's either that we shouldn't accept the anime as canon or vice versa. This is a lot like cherry picking whatever is convenient but also blatantly ignoring whatever is inconvenient.

This is like saying we can't accept Databooks because some entries are very wrong while others are correct.

Canons are not represented by their overall material. Dont reject the canon but the specific material of a feat within it. Just because, for example, the anime canon of a verse portrays something very different from the verse's primary canon doesnt mean the entire anime canon is wrong. Thats a very bad generalization.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"IDK how digimon is being treated here other than what you just said, but if that is the case, then its Digimon that is being treated incorrectly and you shouldnt take things that have less authority over the digimon canon as legitimate."

Except you've not actually given me any source to say that this is the objective rule. You've just told me it is with no evidence. Nor have you created a thread to prove your point. You sound like me during the whole transcending time Kingdom Hearts debate...not one of my best moments...

 

[00potato]

Imma just

A G R E E

 

[Overlord775]

Actually Kukui, could you please name another Composite verse that treats its canon the same way as Pokemon. You say they exist, but have never showed them.

To name two examples:

Naruto

Bleach

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Actually Kukui, could you please name another Composite verse that treats its canon the same way as Pokemon. You say they exist, but have never showed them.

As in the whole Multiversal canoncity thing?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Those aren't Composite verses. Those verses are also way different from Pokemon in terms of how they work.

 

[Overlord775]

Those aren't Composite verses. Those verses are also way different from Pokemon in terms of how they work.

Actually no, they use feats from secondary sources when it doesn't contradict the primary source, while ignoring stuff that contradicts

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Once again, not composite verses. Nor do those sources use original feats for the most part, just explaining things that may contradict other showings. If this was just the games and anime, you'd have a point, but here you have the games, anime and manga. 2 out of 3 contradict the games.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also, people are taking the whole "when its convienent and not inconvienent" argument out of line.

We, again, do this to also reject characters from being wanked or inflated as well not just upgrade them. For their stats and their abilities. If the primary canon dictates a character is a fodder in the verse, and in an alternate canon they show that character being one of the strongest, we obviously are not going to take the alternate canon as the priority. Same thing if in the primary canon, an ability has an established weaknes while in an alternate canon the weakness vanishes. The primary canon takes priority and the ability has that established weakness.

Its a case by case thing in and out of itself.

 

[PaChi2]

"Case by case".

That's why we are discussing Pokemon's case. ƒæÇ

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm staying 100% out of this. Not worth it. Do what you want.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Kukui

This is not present with Pokemon, or more specifically say ST. In the game we see the Pokemon leaving the planet and crashing back down only for both the anime and manga to not portray it like this. There is no dictation here, just an attack animation. It's not even confirmed to happen this way in the official description.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I'm staying 100% out of this. Not worth it. Do what you want.

Only because you have other feats to use to replace this one. ovo

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Wait, I do?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

We'll discuss that later, I just want to get this standard sorted out.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Bleach is much different than this case. First of all, the newer stuff comes from a light novel that is perfectly consistent that doesn't contradict anything. The same thing goes for Naruto. Not to mention we don't dive into anything composite related in either of those verses.

 

[Drite77]

RIP Relativistic Pokemo

 

[Walker21232123]

I go with Neutral.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The problem with that though Dragon is you can't shut down priority just because more supporting canons outnumber the primary canon in terms of how a feat is portrayed. That isnt how priority works. If a canon has priority, it has priority and it beats everything else out.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Kukui, you realize that you are implying that the primary source is infallible? If it was just one primary source and one lower source, you'd have a leg to stand on, bit here, you have multiple secondary sources that show that the primary source's portrayal is not literal. At this point, the primary source's credibility of that portrayal should be put under question.

 

[Overlord775]

i ask you the opposite question, why wouldn't the primary source be 100% reliable ?

 

[SomebodyData]

I'm actually going to somewhat agree with Kukui here, normally showings won't be contradicted as much for any other verse and so the primary canon can be considered of higher priority. However, the problem really lies in the mix and mash of so many canons together, which we do for no other verse that I'm aware of. That's when Dragon's standards come into play the most for me at least.

Though since Kep hasn't found the Pokemon stuff regarding canonicity, its probably gonna get decompositified anyways.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

i ask you the opposite question, why wouldn't the primary source be 100% reliable ?

This but i'll ask in other words because this begs the question. Why wouldnt a primary canon source be 100% absolute?

These seconary sources would never come to be in the first place without the primary canon being used as a basis. So why wouldn't it have the complete say over whats allowed and what isnt?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The moment I get a separate profile for game, anime, and Adventures Mewtwo is the moment I leave the site. Not kidding.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Because in a composite file, all the sources are very important. If the primary source is contradicted by multiple other sources that are all just as used on the files as the primary source. It's called consistency, in this case the primary source is being inconsistent. When making composites, the primary source should not be infallible.

 

[Roachman40]

I agree with it.

 

[PaChi2]

The moment I get a separate profile for game, anime, and Adventures Mewtwo is the moment I leave the site. Not kidding.

I already miss you.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Because in a composite file, all the sources are very important. If the primary source is contradicted by multiple other sources that are all just as used on the files as the primary source. It's called consistency, in this case the primary source is being inconsistent.

But the problem here is your not taking into account just how imporant they would be. Of course in a composite file, all of the canon sources would be important. That doesnt mean that each canon is equally important across the board.

Unless composite means to disregard canonicity completely and just have everything be on the same level of authority.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Dragon how would it not be the other way around? With the secondary source contradicting the primary source. I'd assume that should be the case for anything that has primary and secondary canon.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Dragon how would it not be the other way around? With the secondary source contradicting the primary source. I'd assume that should be the case for anything that has primary and secondary canon.

When there are multiple (more than one) secondary sources that contradict the primary source, then there is reason to begin questioning the primary source.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Dragon That doesn't answer my question. How does the secondary canon not following the primary canon make it the Primary canon that's iffy to use and not the secondary canon that's inconsistent with what's established with the primary canon?