Issues with Canon Composites and levels of Canon

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Kukui

Also, we have nothing to note that the games canon is so far above the manga and anime. This simply comes from fans and that there is no legit evidence to prove this is the case.

 

[Overlord775]

Quality > Quantity

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Dragon That doesn't answer my question. How does the secondary canon not following the primary canon make it the Primary canon that's iffy to use and not the secondary canon that's inconsistent with what's established with the primary canon?

It's called consistency Glass. And note, this is primarily discussing composites. This leads to us picking and choosing and ignoring contradictions of portrayals out of convenience when more sources contradict the primary source. This assumes the primary source is infallible and cannot be wrong when it can, especially in a composite format.

 

[DMB_1]

I agree with Dragon here.

Small thing out of topic, but Godzilla doesn't have a "Composite" continuity, as the individual series follow different continuities each. At best some attacks share the same description/effects throughout multiple ones.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Kukui
Also, we have nothing to note that the games canon is so far above the manga and anime. This simply comes from fans and that there is no legit evidence to prove this is the case.

Besides it being the original creation? Which is all the evidence we need to prove a canon is far above the rest?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Quality > Quantity

This quote means nothing. Seismic Toss only has an attack animation. An animation that is not supported by the official description or any other source.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

So far, I disagree tbh

 

[SomebodyData]

@DMB As far as I'm aware, there are only two composites rather than a composite contiunity. (Most profiles are seperated whether by tab or page in that regard).

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Being the "original" creation means nothing.

Pokemon started as a game. But the anime came out long before this "tossing outside the planet" animation began. The original can be contradicted by other sources.

 

[Overlord775]

This quote means nothing. Seismic Toss only has an attack animation. An animation that is not supported by the official description or any other source.

Could you stop bringing up the Pokemon example and use something else instead ?

 

[Sera_EX]

Pardon my ignorance but I'm not sure what this is saying. Some canon material used for a composite isn't treated equally to another for the same charac or something? I have no idea what that's talking about.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Sorry to say, but currently, Pokemon is the biggest offender of this and honestly the only reason I made this thread was because Kukui said this was the standard.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Overlord Pokemon is literally one of the only composite verses on site, there might not be another example.

Unless you mean within one canon, which I'm pretty Digimon already came up. Which does adhere by that.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Could you stop bringing up the Pokemon example and use something else instead ?

This is about pokemon though? Unless I missed the point?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Being the "original" creation means nothing.
Pokemon started as a game. But the anime came out long before this "tossing outside the planet" animation began. The original can be contradicted by other sources.

Except it should mean everything because thats the very definition of what canon is though. What gets created first takes the cake, simple. Primary canon isnt determined by whats more consistent in a franchise, its determined by what comes first in the franchise.

If we're going to go this route, this is even more of a reason that I disagree with this proposal. Because now we're stepping into boundaries where we're making up a standard of what constitutes something as primary canon.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Professor If we're going by the definition of canon strictly, then why are you combining other canons (which by definition, would not be considered) in the first place?

The moment it became an entire composite verse, you threw the definition of canon out the window.

 

[Overlord775]

@Data

Then it shouldn't be worthy of a general rule that applies to the entire site

@Apie

No, this doesn't apply to only Pokemon, it applies to EVERYTHING

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Pardon my ignorance but I'm not sure what this is saying. Some canon material used for a composite isn't treated equally to another for the same charac or something? I have no idea what that's talking about.

The issue I bring up here is that in composite files, we utilize original feats from other sources, but ignore them when multiple contradict the "primary source". My argument is that in composites, we shouldn't just dismiss it when multiple sources contradict the portrayal of the "primary source" and basically making the primary source infallible when every other source contradicts this. In this case Pokemon is the biggest offender of this.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Overlord Ok? So it becomes a franchise rule then for Pokemon? Not sure how that matters.

 

[Overlord775]

@Dragon

"Pokemon is the biggest offender"

Bring out another example then, because this feels actually feels like a pokemon revision instead of a wiki revision

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Professor If we're going by the definition of canon strictly, then why are you combining other canons (which by definition, would not be considered) in the first place?
The moment it became an entire composite verse, you threw the definition of canon out the window.

I didnt mean that everything else gets thrown out, I meant that the definition of canon would make what comes first the primary source. Which would be the games.

Supporting sources can still be taken, they just take a back seat and let the primary one at the steering wheel.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Overlord how does this being a pokemon or wikiwide revision change any of his points?

@Professor Which is compositing. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I brought up Digimon and how it goes for that series and I was instantly told Digimon is being treated wrongly. And once again, read what I noted. I am changing this standard because Kukui said it was a standard, yet so far I have not seen another verse following this apparent standard.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Professor Which is compositing. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Then whats the definition for composite then? Because I bet dollars to donuts that it doesnt just throw away canonicity but places it in a hiearchy of whats more important and less important.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Agreed.

Just nuke all composites tbh

 

[Wokistan]

Pardon my ignorance but I'm not sure what this is saying. Some canon material used for a composite isn't treated equally to another for the same charac or something? I have no idea what that's talking about.

From what I can tell, pokemon profiles are a weird sorta composite from all the sources, game, anime, manga, etc. There's something portrayed one way in the newer games that's portrayed totally different in everything else. Some peple think game should take precedence and it should be used, others don't agree with evaluation in such an exclusive way and want it to not be used because inconsistent.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It is a standard for the site though. Pokemon isnt the only verse that uses supporting canon sources for their characters. Even if its not to the same extent that Pokemon takes it, that doesnt mean other verses do not do this whatsoever.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I think people are misunderstanding the purpose of this thread, we aren't nuking composites, were are revising how we deal with the canon sources used.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Dragon we all know your ulterior motive. Don't try to hide it.

 

[SomebodyData]

Compositing in profile terms doesn't exist.

Though if you really want to go through definitions: none mention hierarchies or the like, except for... architecture.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Prof name one verse that that has as many secondary canonicities as Pokemon, uses them in a composite, and takes the primary canon above all of the rest.

In the early days we actually did so for Cell btw, but we stopped after members starting poking holes in it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Compositing in profile terms doesn't exist.
Though if you really want to go through definitions: none mention hierarchies or the like, except for... architecture.

Fair enough here. But at the same time, this would be the most logical thing to do when having all canon sources complied in a composite. What comes first is at the top, next comes second, then third, etc.

Pretty much common sense.

 

[Starter_Pack]

I do not agree with this for the reasons Kukui has plainly laid out. Dragon, I understand where you think you're coming from, but you're simply saying that because something is only possible in one medium, and isn't shown to be possible anywhere else, that it shouldn't count. If that's the case, then what's stopping anyone from claiming something from any medium shouldn't be accepted simply because it doesn't line up with everything cleanly. However, in the one place where it is shown, the games, there are multiple descriptions saying Pokémon "flip the world" while performing Seismic Toss, and the animation for Seismic Toss has been shown across multiple generations for years performing this feat, ever since Battle Revolution.

You're attempting to regulate something and force everything to be equal, when the entire verse has shown plainly that it has multiple layers of continuities that have less validity the further you fall down the rabbit hole of spin-off media.

 

[SomebodyData]

Well no. Nothing in regards to composites even remotely hints that. So common sense, that's a bit of a stretch. Its more under the lines of an interpertation. Especially since, outside of Pokemon, every other composite profile doesn't fall under that. @Prof

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Somebody

Now that you mention it, dont we use the Dragon Ball anime as a secondary source? Or are the pages seperate? I dont remember exactly when it comes to dragon ball.

Pushing that aside, Overlord already pointed out Naruto and Bleach. The animes are used as secondary sources for them, especially for Naruto. Not to mention all of the databooks and the light novels the latter has (but Idk how Naruto canon is structured here).

 

[Wokistan]

Pages are separate for dragon ball anime

Idk other 2, Bleach LN's apparently explicitly canon though

 

[SomebodyData]

@Professor

Pages seperate actually. I wouldn't bring up Dragon Ball because you would end up forcing me to make a de-compositifying Pokemon argument down the road.

Like aformentioned above, the difference between primary canon vs a databook is pretty large from a primary canon vs literally 90% of other canons. Not to mention we even drop entire novels and databooks from being used if they're differing, which is not the case for Pokemon. Plus what Wok said changes the context regarding canon quite a bit.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Starter

You misunderstood my point completely. I never said everything had to match up perfectly, however I noted when there is a clear contradiction between mediums then the "primary source" should in fact start to be question. Let's note that Gens Vl and Vll reused animations for the most part. Also the description is not being literal. The power to "flip the world" i.e flip your world up side down? Otherwise this would be a Tier 5 feat and an outlier.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No we don't Somebody, im almost 100% sure there was a rule revision on that too. Even if some entries within a Databook are wrong, the entire databook in itself isnt. It's treated on a case by case basis.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Except, that's not what it means. The Japanese translation of the move is called "Earth Throw," and even in the anime, it is described as a move where Pokémon circle around the globe and come back to smash them into the ground. In that instance, this move would be still be applicable if you look at all of the facts involved, instead of ignoring them to your convenience.