ISSTH 1-A?

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Nepuko "Before it, there was no concept of dimensions. It is the source and origin of everything. It created the concept of dimensions."

Got any proof of this?

"It takes up no space, but at the same time creates and contains ALL space. Exists outside of time, but also creates and contains all time. Has no place, but simultaneously it created and contains all places."

By this logic Arceus is 1-A for creating the concepts of space and time. Creating something doesn't mean you transcend it on a dimensional level or on a level beyond dimensions.

 

[RatherClueless]

its stated to be above time (very directly) and space (kinda indirectly, but still fairly obvious), so no, its above 3-D.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Yes it was, most of the stuff is just rather flowery and, like I have said before, context and the big picture of things matters

We don't upgrade verses based on your own personal interpretation, sorry.

 

[RatherClueless]

nor do we downgrade on yours, your point being?

 

[RatherClueless]

@Shadow

Arceus doesnt even qualify for half of that lol

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah personal interpretations and extrapolations of authorial inte t aren't looked kindly here.

 

[RatherClueless]

So you hate context and logic? got it!

I am tired and feel like I might be getting a bit rude, so I should probably call it a day

 

[Zaratthustra]

It's not only 3D as it clearly says "he was contemplating beyond the width, height, and length". - he was contemplating the very Essence of Space.

it states clearly that it was only a portion of what space is.

Some examples of time.

Time has no boundaries, no limits, no end, and yet it was stopped - I know this is time stop but an example to see how the Author works.

Fading within the River of TIme. - to show a timeline.

River of Time - this is another timeline.

Duplicates of the same world.

Again another River of Time - this one is the one that connects all of them within the Vast Expanse.

Infinite Universes and Spaces - hope this helps you.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

All of that is just 2-A. What we want is evidence of 1-A.

 

[Nepuko]

@ShadowWarrior1999


Sigh.

1)

• The origin and source of all things is Essence!!
• "Essence has no beginning or end, but simultaneously, creates and contains the beginning and end of everything."
• "Essence takes up no space, but simultaneously, creates and contains all space."

2) True, but you seem to ignore "creates and contains the beginning and end of everything.", "creates and contains all space."

 

[Ogbunabali]

This just shows 2-A.

And it's funny because it's directly contradicted by saying there are only 1,080,000 worlds.

 

[Nepuko]

This just shows 2-A.
And it's funny because it's directly contradicted by saying there are only 1,080,000 worlds.

That is not Essence, that is the Eternal Spirit World. What you're saying here is basically this : "Naruto used chakra to destroy a boulder. Hence, Chakra has the size, and durability of the boulder". Bai Xiaochun used his enlightenment on Essence to have a lvl up and play with the Eternal Spirit World. Not with Essence.

 

[InfiniteSped]

That's Bai's reality, not Meng's

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Nepuko I'm not ignoring it, I'm telling you that evidence is insufficient in proving that it's 1-A.

 

[Nepuko]

All of that is just 2-A. What we want is evidence of 1-A.

Before it, there was no concept of dimensions. It is the source and origin of everything. It created the concept of dimensions. It encompasses the concept of shapes and forms, while having none. Like it dosen't exist. It has no beginning and no end, while it created and contains all beginnings and ends. It takes up no space, but at the same time creates and contains ALL space. Exists outside of time, but also creates and contains all time. Has no place, but simultaneously it created and contains all places. It is infinitely small, and infinitely large. Completely unique, and completely boundless.


Now, compare this to the definitio of 1-A :

[Characters that have no dimensional limitations.

Basically, a being or an object which is outside and beyond all dimensions of time and space. This is something completely formless, abstract, metaphysical and transcendental. The usual scale does not make sense against a beyond dimensional object. Such beings can not be affected by destruction within the dimensions of time and space, or physical matter and energy. This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space. Within such a beyond dimensional "space", a dimensional structure with any number of dimensions can be placed, because there are no restrictions regarding dimensions.

Note that all tier 1-A characters have qualitative superiority over dimensional structures and concepts. Also, mere capability to exist in a beyond dimensional domain does not qualify a character as a beyond dimensional being.

There are two options in order to qualify for this tier: There should EITHER be a qualitative superiority over infinite dimensions; OR the superiority over the concept of dimensions (in general) should be clearly explained. ]


What else do you need?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Actual stuff from the story and not your long winded posts extrapolating off sources that don't say any of that.

 

[Nepuko]

Actual stuff from the story and not your long winded posts extrapolating off sources that don't say any of that.

What's on my post there is :

-stuff from the novel

-stuff from this wiki

I don't see how me writing in another format is making it suddenly illegitimate.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Nepuko What I want is proof that it created the concept of dimensions, since you still have not provided a scan for that.

Yeah and containing all of time and space isn't 1-A, just omnipresence.

 

[Nepuko]

@Nepuko What I want is proof that it created the concept of dimensions, since you still have not provided a scan for that.
Yeah and containing all of time and space isn't 1-A, just omnipresence.

So, it being the source and origin of everything, it having created space and contains it still isn't enough? What you're doing is taking things separately and saying : no. That is not Omnipresence, it falls under the " The usual scale does not make sense " part of the 1-A definition. Please re-read the quotes.

 

[Nepuko]

Anyway, i'm off now, see y'all tomorrow..

 

[Zaratthustra]

It clearly stated that it's created and contains all space same for time. It cleary states that Essence is the origin and source of everything.

It cleary states Dimensional Space - you can argue as much as you want but that's what the author wrote. I'm not making headcanons if it clearly states.

You may say I'm wrong - ok but you can't deny the words of the Author.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Nepuko Not even close, it needs to be proven that it is completely transcendent of the concept of dimensions. "Being the source and origin of everything" isn't viable evidence at all.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Zarastthustra This is getting repetitive, no creating and containing space and time isn't 1-A.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah, I don't see anything that really qualifies for 1-A here.

The statements regarding Essence containing all of space while occupying no point in it are neat and all but, the thing is that this only implies that it is a dimensionless force / constant, and surprisingly enough, lacking dimensional attributes is not sufficient for something to actually be considered 1-A. The bulk of the Tiering System bases its ratings off of geometrical, dimensional sIze, and in the context of it, lacking dimensions doesn't really mean you are bigger or smaller than anything, it means you have no size or directionality whatsoever, making such a state pretty much unquantifiable in regards to Dimensional Tiering.

So, I suggest we put dimensionlessness aside and scale the more abstract stuff from ISSTH based on actual feats / statements.

so in short, yes, 1-A is a poorly-defined garbage of a tier which desperately needs fixing and has no general consensus behind what it is

 

[Wokistan]

Pretty sure most of my accepting 1-A was based off of the Taiji/dao stuff. If that's not allowed then I can't really remember anything else that would qualify, and I did think the dimensional spaces thing is more akin to 2-A/

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Ultima is spot on.

Also looking back at the scans with the dimensional spaces, yeah they're not referring to spatiotemporal dimensions, they're talking about universes. So basically the Vast Expanse is this 2-A construct consisting of all the infinite universes.

So I'm not seeing anything tier 1 about this let alone 1-A. This is simply 2-A, maybe High 2-A at best depending on that higher layer of reality where the Vast Expanse is described as being a seed inside.

 

[Ravenous4th]

If me not understanding, lets say, masada and their reasonings, would allow me to downgrade the verse, there would be a lot of issues on this wiki, since the rateings would be ruled by the people, who dont understand/know the verses.

Downgrading Shinza? I think... not

Unlike ISSTH, Masadaverse 1-A doesn't come from its real life equivalent (Real-Life Taiji), it comes from the fact that Taiji in Masadaverse was blatantly stated to be qualitatively superior to all dimensional limitations and the origin of all things including natural laws and duality (platonic concepts).

To put it bluntly, Masadaverse has sufficient evidence while ISSTH has none.

The major problem with people defending ISSTH by comparing it to Masadaverse is that they think just "being the source of everything" is already an adequate justification for 1-A, which is obviously not the case as it was never used to justify Masadaverse 1-As to begin with.

From what I can see, ISSTH isn't 1-A until someone can provide quotes proving that Dao is qualitatively superior to/is the origin of platonic concepts and dimensional space as a whole.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So since Wokistan is okay with the downgrade should we proceede?

 

[GLHF22]

So downgrade to Tier 2A or high 2A?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Yes.

The profile is also a mess. For example his Ancient Realm key is High 2-A for affecting the Vast Expanse which is listed as 8D.

I'm also not sure about the validity of anything above 2-A.

 

[Wokistan]

I think top ends up high 2-A but I'd like another day or so to just read everything over if that's fine

 

[XDragnoir]

right, I have given up on keeping this verse as 1A, but can anyone explain to me why all these mentions to spatial dimensions are not enough for a 1B cosmology?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

right, I have given up on keeping this verse as 1A, but can anyone explain to me why all these mentions to spatial dimensions are not enough for a 1B cosmology?

Because they were referring to dimensions as in universes, not spatiotemporal ones.

 

[Wokistan]

A dimensional space isn't the same thing as a spatial dimension. A spatial dimension is like, length width or height (XYZ planes). It's a direction, it's not some sort of location. Higher dinensuonal whatever means that those areas have extra axes of movement.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think top ends up high 2-A but I'd like another day or so to just read everything over if that's fine

Of course.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Yeah they only refer to 3 dimensions of space as length, height, and breadth.

So Vast Expanse would just be 2-A, with this higher reality where the Vast Expanse is just a seed in is debatable for High 2-A.

 

[Sandman31]

Because they were referring to dimensions as in universes, not spatiotemporal ones.

I've checked the chapter where the countless dimensional spaces were mentioned and they're definitely not referring to universes. Its weird though. Apparently these countless dimensions of space are like threads and the pattern thay form is space.

I mean it could be 1-B if these individual threads are equal to 1 dimension but it seems that this is not the case as you need limitless threads that contains length, height, breadth, and size to form space.

"Meng Hao saw countless dimensions of space, all of them different sizes. Some were blurry, others were clear. They transformed into countless threads"

"Space... is nothing more than countless threads, formed together into a pattern. The patterns formed by those threads... are space!"

"Within these threads are length, height, breadth, and size. They are limitless, and that is space.... They are flat, but actually...." He waved his right hand, causing a thread to stretch out from the circle, and then pass over him. In the blink of an eye, the circle of threads was no longer flat, but had transformed into... a sphere!"

 

[RatherClueless]

alright, lets go over those quotes agin and see what they mean:

"Essence has no form or shape; it's almost like it doesn't even exist, but simultaneously, it creates and contains every form and shape."

It created shapes not as in "it created the first shape", but as in "there was no such things as shapes, before it created them". In other words. It created the concept of shapes, while itself not being capable of having a shape, not beause it is non existant or 0-Dimensional, but because there are no dimensions that could give it shape.

"Essence has no beginning or end, but simultaneously, creates and contains the beginning and end of everything."

Looking at the other quotes, it is fairly hard to deny this talks about space and time. Just this alone should be enough for high 2-A/Low 1-C, even without any other quotes. So yeah, it created space and time, but as in "there was no such thing before that", rather than "it created a timeline and a universe"

"Essence takes up no space, but simultaneously, creates and contains all space."

As I stated above, this comes due to there not being any spatial dimension left, that could define any amount of space, thus it takeing up no space. It also created space in the same way it created shapes. It created the dimension, not (just) a bunch of universes or something.

"Essence exists outside of time, but simultaneously, creates and contains all time."

Yet agin, created the dimension, not (just) a bunch of timelines. It is also outside of it, for the same reason it has no form or space.

"Essence does not exist in any one specific place, but simultaneously, creates and contains all places."

It does not exist at any place, due to there not being a point in space it could exist, due to it being above space. So yeah, another quote that puts it above space as a whole.

"Essence is infinitely small, but simultaneously, infinitely large."

Please give me any 3-D thing that qualifies for this, because I can think of none. Anyways, this is yet agin talking about how it contains everything, while itself being capable of being infinitely small/almost without existance.

"Essence is completely unique, and completely boundless!"

Thats, um, a fairly useless statement, especially on its own. If we take the "unique" part litterally though, this would also apply to dimensions. In other words, its whole existance is different to dimensions themselves.

@Ravenous4th I never said that I dont get it, Inever said that that it has not enough prove and I never said it should be downgraded. I said that people, who say stuff like this:

"This just shows 2-A.

And it's funny because it's directly contradicted by saying there are only 1,080,000 worlds."

, which is just false, should not be the judge of the verse, due to clearly not understanding the cosmology.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Honestly, I feel this is more up to interpreting the Re Gen's spiritual jabbering, which is rather difficult.

I agree that it's likely "At least High 2-A" or something like that, but I'm not sure about Low 1-C. Maybe putting a "possibly" in there?


Hopefully once I finish reading I can give better insight, but I'm currently bogged down with Bai losing his virginity to his own rape pills twice, so it might take a bit.

 

[Epizestro]

I'm a bit behind here, has anyone brought up that at heaven trampling, you can just create and destroy essence whenever you want with ease?