Invulnerability, Immunity and NLF

[Antoniofer]

Do we treat nonexistent beings to be immune to everything? Noth have its statements but if they have a body they can be harmed. Obviously, they shouldn't be affect by death manipulation.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I mean, Unavertable Death is literally hax meant for absolute immortal beings.

 

[SomebodyData]

Yeah I don't remember us treating nonexistent beings as immune to everything, just harder to fight basically.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

They'd be for the most part immune to existence erasure as long as you can't erase them from non-existence.

 

[Antoniofer]

They can still be erased, but someone would need conceptual level EE to do so. But if they can a "body" people can still interact with them and harm them as normally would happen. Same happen with unbirth and those who transcend life and death.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

But aren't there characters like Nobodies from KH that can only be harmed with specific weapons, Roxas even mentioning(in the manga) that they're like ghost? So I don't think you can harm them physically unless you exploit a weakness of theirs.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, has SS said they generally are pretty difficult to harm or fight, but generally with Non-Physical Interaction someone can intereact with them. It at the end it depends of how the verse thread them.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

That's mainly my point they can't harm them unless they have the interaction.

 

[NoOneCanJustDeflectTheEmeraldSplash]

What if someone is specifically stated to have a literally unbeatable resistance to something?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Still NLF.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

It should be changed to extreme resistance on the DND pages. It's extremely good resistance but a NLF

 

[DMB_1]

Again, I disagree with adding "Extremely Good" to a resistance, since resistances, as well as AP and durability, and a ton of ton of hax, are relative things.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

It really should just be "Resistance" and just add the details at the end of it.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Okay, fair. It should be noted the resistance is total immunity in verse despite being a NLF outside of it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I think this is fine, but it should be noted that certain types of beings outside of what is commonly given as an example should be granted immunity- a blog (similar to cosmology blogs) would probably be needed to describe the nature of said beings.

For lack of a better example, oozes in D&D are effectively "animals" and sentient to some extent, but in verse are considered brainless and have no central nervous system. They are just gelatin that eats things and cannot be affected by mind effects. Similarly, deities are conceptual beings that generally don't have a conceivable mind (again, using mindhax since it is generally what is used in this regard).

So I agree, but often it boils down to context.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Whats gonna happen with "Immunity to disease and poison"?
Maybe change it to "Immunity to natural disease and poison"

I know this is fairly small but would this work?

 

[Mand21]

Are Philosophical Zombies to have mind immunity, soul immunity, both or neither?

Again, I disagree with adding "Extremely Good" to a resistance, since resistances, as well as AP and durability, and a ton of ton of hax, are relative things.

Now more seriously, I agree with this but think that resistances could come with a brief explanation if they're special cases, such as a really good resistance like "This character is tied to the concept of life and thus can resist really high level of death hax" could be summarized as "Resistance to Death Manipulation (Tied to the concept of life), which is... ...basically the consensus.

 

[Antoniofer]

Conventional zombies are (should be) immune tu conventional mind manipulation (althoughnif they have a functional brain they can be affected by mind manipylation that involve the brain), and depending of the type of zombie they could or not be immune to conventional soul manipulation.

 

[Reppuzan]

What about characters who have magical invulnerability like Achilles. He's explicitly stated to be irrespective of power to the point that he easily tanks a Noble Phantasm several times above his natural durability.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

What about characters who have magical invulnerability like Achilles. He's explicitly stated to be irrespective of power to the point that he easily tanks a Noble Phantasm several times above his natural durability.

That would still be a Resistance. A strong one, but a resistance all the same as their are still character in fiction who use magical abilities that are far stronger than anything he has taken.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Achilles in particular varies a lot from version to version, from "He's just super strong except for his ankle", to "All versions of his death except being hit in the ankle with an arrow shot by Hector have been erased from multiversal quantum possibility and so nothing else can kill him".

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Again, Invulnerability works just fine as long as you don't apply it on stuff outside of what feats and scaling has shown. It just means "they can't be harmed by attacks with X power or less" in practice, outside of some very specific exceptions.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Dargoo

Fate Achilles explicitly lolnopes conventional attacks that don't strike his heel and don't have divinity. The official description outright says that force does not matter.

"Any type of attack against him is nullified, including physical damage, the "normal attacks" of Servants, and even great Noble Phantasms like the A+ ranked Balmung."

Granted, there are clear weaknesses, but this is from the profile itself.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, I think they are good as they are. "Tier 7-X character can't be immune to 4-Y fire, is NLF", for instance I doubt someone will put to fight those characters, and yes, they could not be immune (it also depends of the description of the verse).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Alexandria has a body frozen in time, which supposedly renders her immune to convention attacks as force can't interact with her body... But then Eidolo still kills a bunch of her clone. Even stuff like "Immunity to physical attacks" can have upper limits and be contradicted.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Again, Invulnerability works just fine as long as you don't apply it on stuff outside of what feats and scaling has shown. It just means "they can't be harmed by attacks with X power or less" in practice, outside of some very specific exceptions.

Achilles invulnerability explicitly does not work like that. Its basically power null to everything that isn't divine. It basically works on a different metric then raw power

 

[Mand21]

Achilles invulnerability explicitly does not work like that. Its basically power null to everything that isn't divine. It basically works on a different metric then raw power

It's still NLF to say that he'd resist attacks from whatever scale if he does not demonstrate the capacity to, say, resist attacks from multi-solar system level when he's Tier 7. Also, at a certain tier, the mere shockwave of a punch to the face could already destroy his ankle completely to the point where his invulnerability doesn't protect from punches to the face as he'll end up feeling the impact down there regardless, so it might be impossible to just disregard all damage without feats.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Unrelated, but can we please remove the One Hit Kill power from the wiki? It's utterly arbitrary, nonsensical, and not even a real power. And conveys a NLF. Literally anything can one-shot depending on the strength of the attacker and the weakness of the opponent.

This is still happening, right?

 

[Wokistan]

Iirc a philosophical zombie doesn't really have to do much with the supernatural concept

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Is not entirely useless. Not as much as Spin Dash

 

[Wokistan]

@matt

Yeah I'd agree with that. Most one shot moves are either durability negating/some other hax, or just way stronger than other moves in the arsenal. Not like Destiny characters should get some special ability of one shot kill because shotguns and rocket launchers are a thing.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Rep

"It just means "they can't be harmed by attacks with X power or less" in practice, outside of some very specific exceptions"

I'll repeat myself: Invulnerability can stay, just treat it case-by-case, and only as "can't be harmed by attacks with X force or less"

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Mand Think of Achilles's invulnerability as a passive power null to everything that hits him. We don't consider power null under that same scale until they are far higher than their user. Its also been established that defensive hax can be considered far higher if the metric for them is known. Basically this is the axis of authority and divine vs not divine, as apposed to power. Let me remind you that this is the same verse that will crap on higher dimensional defensive abilities just cuz you have more authority on your side

 

[Crzer07]

Then again two hit kill is also a thing.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Isn't there a specific difference between immunity and resistance, though? To use pokemon as example, Water types resist fire attacks, while ghost types are immune to normal attacks. You can still knock out a water type with a fire attack but you can't knock out a ghost type with a normal attack.

When a character is immune, that means they take no damage from an attack or the attack has no effect. A character with resistence, still takes damage, but not full damage or they are able to power through the attack.

As for NLF, a charcter is only immune to attacks at the levels of which they've shown that immunity.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Well "immune" implies that literally nothing of that immunity can do anything. For example, "Immunity to heat" would mean that one could survive even Absolute Hot. Of course that's NLF as mess, so we write it as "Resistance to heat". In this way "immunity to what has been shown by feats" and "resistance" are synonymous for the purpose of VS battles.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

... is absolute hot an actual thing?

 

[PsychoWarper]

I mean theres a concept for it, Absolute hot.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Not just a concept, but a formula and value for the highest possible temperature obtainable before physics calls it quits. It's very likely to be a true value and not just an idea.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Iam In here, not being affected by something is also considered resistance.