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True, simply telling him it was a concept was underselling it a bit.Assaltwaffle said:
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Invulnerability, Immunity and NLF
- Thread starter Dragonmasterxyz
- Start date
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Well at that point you're immune to all physical force and conventional energy, so yeah.Crzer07 said:
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ProfessorKukui has asked me to post this for him in his behalf. The following is not my opinion, but rather his.
"Okay so what I wanted to add in to the discussion was a point I have regarding "Immunity".
While I agree with Dragons thread for the most part, there is something I think should be considered. For Immunities, I personally think that they should be separated into 2 categories. "Effect" and "Power". Because immunities seem to be only immune to the effects of the opponents attacks, not the overall attack itself. Like if character x for example is 5-B and has "immunity to fire manipulation" and is pitted against character y, who is 4-C and uses fire based attacks powerful enough to burn away entire stars. In this scenerio, character x wouldnt be burned by character y's fire attacks because he's immune to being burned by fire, but because the power of the fire attack is far far above his 5-B tiering, he would still be one shotted by the attack regardless of the immunity.
Obviously that example was very hypothetical, so to help explain more i'll use actual characters this time to explain it better. Lets take....Groudon and Thor.
Now, in Pokemon, Groudon has immunity to electricity manipulation because electric type moves have no effect on ground type pokemon. Obviously, it's a massive NLF to say Groudon would no-sell any eletrical based attack from Thor, whos 4-B to 2-C with his attacks. So to help solve the problem, think of this from a different approach. Even if the attack is electricity based, the power and energy of the attack itself is still multiple tiers above anything Groudon has. So when we say Groudon is "immune" to electricity, all that should mean is Groudon can't be electrically shocked by anything. But that doesn't mean the force and strength of the whole attack wouldn't kill it in the end as it would. In other words, Groudon in this situation would only have immunity to the effects of the attack, not the power. He can prevent himself from being electrically shocked, but because he's no where remotely close to Thor's power level, the attack's power would make Groudon's immunity useless and still kill it.
TD;LR- "Immunity to x" should apply to only the effects of an opponents move instead of the entire technique and be decided to work/not work depending on the power difference between yourself and your opponent. Nulling the effectiveness of the ability doesn't mean you can stop the force of power from killing you. So if your 5-B and are immune to matter manipulation, and a character that uses matter hax to a 5-B extent faces you, your immunity should be fine as the opponent isnt stronger than you by a big extent so you can take both the moves effects and it's power. But it would be useless against matter manipulation that works on stars since its tier 4 power. Same effect, but different levels of force you can't hope to stop and suggesting you could is what becomes the NLF.
Hopefully this makes sense. Obviously if no one agrees, its completely fine with me. I just wanted this to be seen, while im away, before the thread gets potentially concluded."
Thus concludes his input he asked me to post.
"Okay so what I wanted to add in to the discussion was a point I have regarding "Immunity".
While I agree with Dragons thread for the most part, there is something I think should be considered. For Immunities, I personally think that they should be separated into 2 categories. "Effect" and "Power". Because immunities seem to be only immune to the effects of the opponents attacks, not the overall attack itself. Like if character x for example is 5-B and has "immunity to fire manipulation" and is pitted against character y, who is 4-C and uses fire based attacks powerful enough to burn away entire stars. In this scenerio, character x wouldnt be burned by character y's fire attacks because he's immune to being burned by fire, but because the power of the fire attack is far far above his 5-B tiering, he would still be one shotted by the attack regardless of the immunity.
Obviously that example was very hypothetical, so to help explain more i'll use actual characters this time to explain it better. Lets take....Groudon and Thor.
Now, in Pokemon, Groudon has immunity to electricity manipulation because electric type moves have no effect on ground type pokemon. Obviously, it's a massive NLF to say Groudon would no-sell any eletrical based attack from Thor, whos 4-B to 2-C with his attacks. So to help solve the problem, think of this from a different approach. Even if the attack is electricity based, the power and energy of the attack itself is still multiple tiers above anything Groudon has. So when we say Groudon is "immune" to electricity, all that should mean is Groudon can't be electrically shocked by anything. But that doesn't mean the force and strength of the whole attack wouldn't kill it in the end as it would. In other words, Groudon in this situation would only have immunity to the effects of the attack, not the power. He can prevent himself from being electrically shocked, but because he's no where remotely close to Thor's power level, the attack's power would make Groudon's immunity useless and still kill it.
TD;LR- "Immunity to x" should apply to only the effects of an opponents move instead of the entire technique and be decided to work/not work depending on the power difference between yourself and your opponent. Nulling the effectiveness of the ability doesn't mean you can stop the force of power from killing you. So if your 5-B and are immune to matter manipulation, and a character that uses matter hax to a 5-B extent faces you, your immunity should be fine as the opponent isnt stronger than you by a big extent so you can take both the moves effects and it's power. But it would be useless against matter manipulation that works on stars since its tier 4 power. Same effect, but different levels of force you can't hope to stop and suggesting you could is what becomes the NLF.
Hopefully this makes sense. Obviously if no one agrees, its completely fine with me. I just wanted this to be seen, while im away, before the thread gets potentially concluded."
Thus concludes his input he asked me to post.
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Wait.... You didn't knew that @Monarch? e.eMonarch Laciel said:
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I concur with pretty much everything uttered in this thread.
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Nothing wrong with characters having both really.Yobobojojo said:
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@DDM. I don't necessarily see how immunity to ABZ is an NLF though, Pokémon or otherwise. It's not a matter of semantics as much as it is a matter of math. ABZ is a single temperature. There are no levels of it. There's not necessarily higher dimensional ABZ. It's simply being able to no-sell minus 459.67 degrees Fahrenheit (yes, I'm a filthy American ovo).
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I think Professor K makes a good point
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@Ezeriot
So Death Manipulation. Basically OHK is superfluous as it's functionality can be better described by what is inducing the death. Furthermore, something that is a certain kill on some characters (decapitation, for example) will not instantly induce death on others. One Hit Kill is just not needed, NLF, and confusing.
So Death Manipulation. Basically OHK is superfluous as it's functionality can be better described by what is inducing the death. Furthermore, something that is a certain kill on some characters (decapitation, for example) will not instantly induce death on others. One Hit Kill is just not needed, NLF, and confusing.
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- Thread starter
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I'll make a One Hit Kill and then Nonexistent Physiology (As I do have issues with this as well) thread after this. Sound cool?
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What are the current issues with non existent physiology?
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@Dragon
I was actually going to tackle Nonexistent Physiology today, but I'd be fine with a revision thread for it. It certainly leaves a lot to be desired.
I was actually going to tackle Nonexistent Physiology today, but I'd be fine with a revision thread for it. It certainly leaves a lot to be desired.
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- Thread starter
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Not important here.Iapitus The Impaler said:
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To be fair, I didn't known Nonezistance Physiology was a thing until a month ago, I actually I haven't heard issues about it.
Anyway, that's derailing a little, but I personally think there's an issue with immunity or OHK as long there's a rasonable in-verse explaination. I also think that ground pokemon are immune to electricity but only to real electricity and only the electricity: since they are ground they do not conduct current, however in fiction most electricity do not work as real electricity, they can cause explosions and other significant effects, ground type aren't immune to do that so they would be affected, notice that in the pokedex several pokemon are treated to attack with real electricity (stating magnitude in volts).
Anyway, that's derailing a little, but I personally think there's an issue with immunity or OHK as long there's a rasonable in-verse explaination. I also think that ground pokemon are immune to electricity but only to real electricity and only the electricity: since they are ground they do not conduct current, however in fiction most electricity do not work as real electricity, they can cause explosions and other significant effects, ground type aren't immune to do that so they would be affected, notice that in the pokedex several pokemon are treated to attack with real electricity (stating magnitude in volts).
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>In fiction most electricity do not work as real electricity
Including Pokemon ironically
Including Pokemon ironically
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Yeah, some times (like 50% of time) the electricity there do explode, although the pokedex describe them as real one (Any time a magnitude is stated is treated it "equalize" the attack to any verse).
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Bro, water explodes in Pokémon.
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Everything Explodes in Pokemon tho.The real cal howard said:
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Punching you in the face explodes in Pokemon ovo
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Back onto the wikia now.
Did anyone see the suggestion I had for this when Assalt posted it for me by any chance?
Did anyone see the suggestion I had for this when Assalt posted it for me by any chance?
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I think immunity should have some limits. For example, in Pokemon, all ground types are immune to electric type moves. If another High 6-C uses electricity manip on a ground type, it'll be immune. If a High 1-A uses electricity manip on a ground type, it'll be done for.
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I doubt that any 1-A would use something as trivial as electric attack tho, but I get the point, they are immune cuz ground has pretty high resistivity, so something like 100000 Volts (a value mentioned in the pokedex often) wouldn't do a thing. Obviously higher values would cause damage, even lightning could cause damage due its heat at impact.
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This is why I had Assalt post that suggestion reply of mine when I was away.Jawsome274 said:
Does anyone think its plausible or no?
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Well, that (as far as I know) breaks what we think of as an immunity (Being absolutely unable to be affected by the ability in question, no matter what level), so I don't think we would ever write "immunity to Earth Manipulation up to 6-C level" or anything like that. Better as a resistance.
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Welp, its better to just led the profiles just as they are, at the end, if people read immunity/invulnerability will assume that is not affected by thosempowers from the same verse, or the question will be brought up in a vsthread.
Mr. Bambu
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It totally isn't, especially with certain abilities where resistance isn't measured in AP but other things (volumes of minds haxed, for example).Crzer07 said:
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